Abuse in butch-femme relationships

[dancer611]

This is going to be a tough one for me. I thought my last (and first; I'm only 22 and didn't figure any of this out until 21, so I haven't had a lot of time!) girlfriend was the love of my life. But she got physical with me on a few occasions. I never thought I'd be the one this would happen to; I guess it made it harder that she was a woman, and despite the fact that I am 4'11" and 110 pounds and she's 6' and big, in my mind I guess it was easier to reconcile that than, say, some jerk boyfriend smacking me around.

Here's the problem: I've never been as close to anyone as I was/am to her. Nobody's ever treated me that well in a relationship day to day; I've never been that intimate with anyone before, sexually, emotionally or spiritually. And I feel a lot of guilt because I can be a lot to deal with. I get depressed, I ask a million insecure questions, etc., etc. And I certainly didn't make it easy for her to be with me...I was afraid of coming out, and of commitment (due to the need for me to come out in my former job and family, both in super-conservative environments. Now those issues are resolved, but they were not at the beginning of our relationship). But she had an anger problem before me, and I know she had some "issues" along these lines with previous girlfriends.

I knew she had a bad temper, but it escalated to extremes on rare occasions. One night we were at the local lesbian bar and there were some guys there. She accused me of looking at them and flirting with them as we were driving home. I wasn't; I didn't even notice them beyond the fact that they were dudes in an otherwise all-girl bar. She pulled over and we started fighting and screaming; I realized she was at least somewhat drunk. Things got worse and she eventually choked me, then pulled out her army knife, opened it up and frightened me with it, told me she was going to kill me, and then herself, then threw down the knife and started crying. I ran out of the car and she ran after me, chasing me. I turned around and hit her, and she threw me on the ground and took my phone so I couldn't call the police. Then she started crying and apologizing. I chalked it up to some freak intoxicated incident and insecurities, but I stayed scared when her temper would flare up, especially since she was so much bigger than me.

A few months later, she came to my apartment, somewhat intoxicated, though not badly. I could tell she was in her "angry place." I said I really didn't want her to be in my apartment drunk, because I was afraid, and she started screaming at me that I was a worthless whore, useless, disgusting, etc. I was so shaken that I slapped her, hard. I still feel terrible about it. But what followed was horrible. She held me down on the ground and the bed while I screamed for her to please let me up because I couldn't breathe. This continued for about 15 minutes. I tried to stay with her for a few months after that, but the anger incidents (not physical ones) continued and I eventually broke up with her over it, though I didn't want to. I felt I had no choice at that point, and I was exhausted.

She is now going to intensive therapy and cutting back on her drinking. What I don't understand is how I can still have such strong feelings for her. It makes me feel pathetic, but these were isolated incidents. I don't know how I'll meet another butch who meets all my emotional and physical and spiritual needs like she did, and like I did for her; who I can love as completely and connect to as deeply; who I can tell anything to without judgment; who will be interested in me and I in them, and we will both have eyes only for each other; who I can give my whole heart to and love unconditionally, and who will do the same for me. So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

Please be gentle. This has been really tough.

[dancer611]

I should add that she very much wants to get back together with me. She has apologized profusely, and tells me every day that I'm the only person she ever wants to be with, and believes I am the one. This is making it even harder to stay strong and say no.

[Mtn]

You don't hit girls, simplistic, but really not. Good luck to you.

[SugarFemme]

I am truly very sorry for you had to go through and continue to deal with. It's awesome that SHE is going to counseling, but I would highly recommend that YOU go get counseling as well. When you are educated on Domestic Violence and also have a therapist helping you through what had happened, hopefully it will give you a much stronger foundation to deal with the past and prevent it from becoming a part of your future. I cannot implore you more to educate yourself and get counseling. Good luck to you.

[Electrocell]

I agree with Mtn you don't hit women period . If you are mad enough to hit her then you best be walking away until you cool down. I have however had some women to try and come after me and keep the arguement going and some that have actually hit me. My opinion run like hell and never look back.

[NorCalStud]

I agree you both need counseling. Even if you were not dealing with your own hand hitting....Im gonna say what I think should happen and then take what you want and throw out the rest:
She in couseling
you in counseling
You two in couples counseling ONLY. No dating or sex... just healing.
Then after three months check it out but continue counseling for a year.

OR....run...she had a knife....thats very serious...she really isnt that perfect person who is everything to you....she threatened you . Believe me there are mass great handsome butches out there who know how to take a femme out and have fun

[Random]

No contact...

Sometime the love can be there but it's toxic...

How can you ever trust that she will not hit you again?

That trust is gone...

I know this is going to sound harsh, but you are only 22.. At 22 you are just starting to get a clue about life and about who you are/will be...

You will meet someone you makes you feel this way again... Honest, you really will...


I recommend you NOT look for another butch until you get some therapy to help heal from the last....

(Wishes she had taken this advice when it was given to her.....)

[*Anya*]

Whether it be a male or female abuser- you are putting your life at risk if you go back to her.

My abuser was my ex-husband. I was young, just like you are. Abusers always have an excuse: you made them upset/angry; they had a bad day/night; too much alcohol/drugs, etc., etc.

They are always remorseful, it will never happen again; until it does.

My ex-husband started with pushing, shoving, escalating to slaps-until the time I was 8-months pregnant with my second baby at age 20, when he sat on my stomach and punched me in the face several times.

Get therapy for yourself or anything that you need to help you to believe that you do not deserve abuse. It is great that she is in intensive therapy but it could take years for her to get a handle on her anger and acting out. Cutting down on her drinking may not be enough for her either. She may need to get clean and sober.

That you also slapped her, also reflects that the two of you are a volatile couple. It does not bode well for your future as a couple or that it is healthy for either of you to be together.

There are so many loving butches out there that would never dream of hurting you. Give yourself a chance to find this out for yourself. You can break the cycle.

Best of luck.

[Lady Pamela]

I should add that she very much wants to get back together with me. She has apologized profusely, and tells me every day that I'm the only person she ever wants to be with, and believes I am the one. This is making it even harder to stay strong and say no.

May I first say, If you need someone to talk to who understands..I offer my ears, shoulder and advice...I have endured and dealt with such.

But I will say I am blunt in my words. And I call it as I see it.

I do not think you deserve to have to FIX anything other than your healing.

It is not YOURS to fix. It is anothers problem.

You should never take abuse.
And I will say bluntly...Most cases of abuse excell. They stop for a short time then continue. Ask anyone who has endured such.

Better yet, any womans shelter can define and prove what I just said.

Anyway, if your interested in just having an ear..drop me a line. ladypamelasworld@aol.com

Namast'e

[Gemme]

I don't know how I'll meet another butch who meets all my emotional and physical and spiritual needs like she did, and like I did for her; who I can love as completely and connect to as deeply; who I can tell anything to without judgment; who will be interested in me and I in them, and we will both have eyes only for each other; who I can give my whole heart to and love unconditionally, and who will do the same for me.

How can someone 'meet all your needs' if she's wailing on you and threatening you with weapons?

Listen to the others. Therapy, get into it. Stay far, far away from her. She is not healthy for you or herself in any way, shape or form.

[dancer611]

Also, to clarify, I know that what happened the second time on my part (though I was scared as she got into this "mode" where anything could happen) was very wrong, but the first time, I only hit her to get her away from me, as she was chasing me down the street when I tried to get away.

[kittygrrl]

get out now, even with therapy she can and probably will relapse..it's hard to let go of someone who meets your needs on other levels but realize she isn't the only one out there who can..you need therapy too because being battered leaves you vunerable to choose someone who is a lot like your ex. It's very typical of women who have suffered from abuse to have a very hard time letting go...I work with battered women( for a living) and I see the same women who without therapy will out of 50 normal people will be attracted to the one person who will abuse them..It's typical behavior for most abusers to be so very sorry...........until it happens again. Hoping it will stop is like hoping the moon won't rise. Don't waste years thinking she will change she won't, she will use up your youth, destroy your self esteem, and if she finally leaves you will take everything she can from you and feel totally justified because this is all your fault (of course) if there is a hell, this is at least one of them. Love yourself enough to get out and resolve to stay away from her. It will take some time to get over her, be patient, seek therapy and be well.

[spritzerJ]

I should add that she very much wants to get back together with me. She has apologized profusely, and tells me every day that I'm the only person she ever wants to be with, and believes I am the one. This is making it even harder to stay strong and say no.

In my experience... it was at this point, you describe, I moved to no contact. When I got to the point I felt I was backed into a corner and couldn't FIGHT my way out (and by fight I mean stand my ground, see myself, protect myself, think for myself, simply have space to breath and think) was when I set the boundary firmer. For me it was if they were going to push and I couldn't be clear then I needed to say no contact until I knew I was with out a doubt secure in myself and had my support lined up.

As others have referenced, counseling. AND layers of support and a plan. You are worth that (and more).

Keep talking... even if when you can't ask for help or know what you need you can speak.

[Scuba]

First let me say...there are a whole bunch of butches (sounds like a box of cereal) who are incredible and healthy and who are ready to engage in incredibly nice, healthy relationships.

Second...there's only one relationship either one of you should consider at this time and that's the one with your own selves. There is only ONE person in this world who meets ALL of your needs and that is YOU. There is only one person who you should love first and foremost and that is YOU. The moment you think otherwise you have forfeited the very essence of your being and fallen out of love with YOU. Learn to love yourself first and completely; good, bad and ugly. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't snag a few lumps of coal along the way but you will see the red flags MUCH sooner and understand that you don't need to sacrifice ANYTHING to have happiness with another being and you will accept nothing LESS than what you deserve.

I'm not ashamed to say I have had a whole LOT of help along the way. I didn't have the luxury of a present parents (they were just cruel to each other) so I desperately needed the help of others. I struggled horribly in my 20s so I feel your pain. My first girlfriend was (back then) the love of my life. I was devastated after we broke up so much that I though I couldn't live without her. It took me years and a lot of therapy to understand what was going on. It was the first time in my life ANYONE had paid so much attention to me. The first time someone loved me for who I was/am. The first person to show that they cared. I latched on and didn't feel like I could let go.

I'm 47 and still learning but once those true colors show I know to run for the hills. Nothing, no one is worth my own personal happiness.

Good luck and don't worry about the help she's getting just get yourself help. She may or may not change. It takes two to tango and the only person you CAN change is yourself.

Scoobs

[Gráinne]

Would you want your daughter or sister to be treated like that?

I'm here to tell you that if you go back, there's only one end. Find therapy, and get out. Love isn't supposed to hurt.

[Electrocell]

Found this on yahoo.


By Chelsea Kaplan
Share: Email Facebook Twitter MySpace StumbleUpon reddit Digg There’s no such thing as a relationship without challenges. However, some stumbling blocks are merely garden-variety annoyances, while others are bona fide deal-breakers. If you’re on the fence about which category your gripes belong in and whether or not they’re worth enduring, consider the advice of Lundy Bancroft and Jac Patrissi, authors of Should I Stay or Should I Go? A Guide to Knowing if Your Relationship Can — and Should — Be Saved. Below, they offer five ways to know whether your romance is doomed or likely to go the distance.

1. Consider how you and your partner resolve conflicts
In all relationships, partners experience periods when they need to express their disappointment and/or disagreement. “These periods are characterized by a sense of vulnerability, and they are difficult,” says Patrissi. “Yet, though relationships may get very difficult, you will know that they are working and healthy because each time you navigate these difficulties — and you will, countless times — you are growing closer and developing ways of being together that work for both of you.” Browse Local Singles at Match.com on Yahoo!
In an unhealthy relationship (i.e., one that really isn’t working), when you hit those periods of conflict, you’ll notice either right away or soon enough that you are not a team struggling for mutual well-being, Patrissi says. Unsure about whether you and your partner are have an unhealthy conflict resolution approach? When you argue, does it become about who can win and/or who can hurt the other more effectively, or does one (or both) of you become explosive or cruel? Is it characterized by your partner thinking almost exclusively about what is good for him or her, not about what’s good for you or the relationship? If any of these statements ring true for you, Patrissi says it’s probably a wise decision to get out.

2. Recognize the difference between irritating habits and deal-breakers
Patrissi says that some of the most troubling and potentially deal-breaking problems one can face with a partner are immaturity, addiction, unresolved or untreated mental health issues (including the after-effects of trauma, depression and personality disorders) and abusiveness: “Each one of these is a big ticket item, meaning it will likely cost you a great deal of emotional energy and time to be in a relationship with your partner and one of these issues. I know you want just your partner, but sometimes the partner doesn’t come without the issue. And that’s the heartbreaker.”

But is it a deal-breaker? That depends on a number of things, including where you are in your own life, where you are in your relationship, and what is safe and possible for you, explains Patrissi: “For example, you may have always known since childhood that if a partner was abusive to you — especially if he laid a hand on you in anger — that this was your deal-breaker. Yet if it happens, you will find yourself faced with many more ethical and practical questions that play into your decision-making than you had anticipated. Also, given your life history, you may decide that, no matter how much you love your partner, you don’t want to put so much energy into dealing with anything so consuming.”

3. Focus on yourself for a bit
Often, the easiest way to find clarity about your relationship involves shifting your focus away from it and to the center and joy of your own life instead. “In rediscovering what brings you joy, reinvesting in a daily routine that will support you, rediscovering some of the values you hold and creating a self-nurturing plan that includes skills for regulating your emotions when you feel out of sorts and creating a parenting-from-your-center plan if you have kids, you will create your own ‘no matter what happens’ life goals for yourself,” Patrissi explains.

Once you identify a couple of these life goals, you’ll enter into a process of addressing all the barriers to your own growth — some of which may involve your existing relationship. For example: You may realize that you are exhausted from coping with your partner’s issue; you may have poor financial health, which is a common consequence of destructive relationships; or, you may not be physically safe enough in the relationship to initiate moves toward investing in a routine that supports you — all of which should provide clear reasons why leaving your current relationship would be preferable to sticking around.

4. Think about the consequences of ending the relationship
When debating whether to leave or stay, Lundy advises first considering whether you’ve ever felt frightened of your partner. Has this person ever physically attacked you, or made you feel that he or she was on the verge of it? Has your partner ever forced you sexually? Has your partner said anything like, “You’d better not ever try to leave me” or anything similar that suggested he or she wanted you to be afraid of ending things? If your intuition tells you that your partner may have a volatile reaction, that’s a pretty good sign that walking away from your relationship is a good idea.

That said, it’s incredibly important to plan your exit carefully before doing so to ensure your safety, says Lundy: “Before telling your partner that you’re ending the relationship, figure out how you are going to get your belongings safely out of your place,” she advises. “Consider whether seeking a protective order might increase your safety, and deliver the news in a public place.” If you’re concerned that your partner may engage in self-harm, let key people in his or her life know that your relationship is ending — and that you are concerned about your partner’s welfare. “Once you’ve done that, you have to let go; your partner is responsible for his or her own choices, and you are not the cause of his or her deep misery,” Lundy says.

5. Imagine a life without your partner
Anyone can lose track of his or her identity in a relationship. “You may have put aside your own goals and dreams, lost track of your own favorite activities and closest friends, sacrificed your taste in music or movies, or altered your political beliefs,” says Lundy. “Though all this accommodating can help hold a relationship together, the price is too high; you vanish in your partner’s current.”

When you’re trying to decide whether staying in your relationship will be truly beneficial or not, ask yourself if you have remained true to who you really are during the time you’ve been with your partner, and what your life would look like if you were no longer together. Remember that having love, approval, kindness and appreciation for yourself is at least as important as getting it from someone else; if these feelings are impossible to have while in your current relationship, it’s time to get back into having a loving, supportive connection with yourself.

And as much as we all enjoy being in love, Lundy cautions against jumping right into seeing someone new: “Give yourself time to get the benefits of being alone and to work through the grief and anger you’re carrying from the relationship that just ended. Build resources into your life that will support you and help to fill the gap left by your partner’s absence. Make friendships a priority, especially with people you can really trust. If you have children, you now have an opportunity to spend significant extra time with them, focusing on having fun and feeling close.”

[LaneyDoll]

I am probably going to sound more tough than I intend and if it comes across that way, I do apologize.

End it.

I was in a relationship once (if you count approx 4-6 mos. as a "relationship") and things got physical. She and I were arguing one night and she ended up storming out in a fit of anger. After a few minutes she called me & said "I had to leave before I hit you." So, I replied "then you need to come back & get your things."

She & I were like fire & gasoline. Apart, we are fine, but together, we were volatile. Ironically, our paths still cross and we are friendly towards each other. I have a new policy now-you show me your potential for abuse (or cheating etc) and I will show you the door. First time-no second chances.

No one should endure abuse or the possibility for it. It is not worth it. No relationship, no amount of great sex, fabulous trinkets, or good times are worth the chance of getting hurt. THEN, you have to think, "if we have kids, will it transfer to them?"

I realize that she is in therapy and kudos to her for it. But I would rather be the reason someone got a wake up call & looked back sadly, than the reason my family got a call that woke them up sadly.

:sparklyheart:

[theoddz]

I think there are a plethora of good suggestions and comments here, but I have just one thing to add.

Several posters have said "You don't hit girls/women".

Well. It is my personal upbringing and steadfast belief that NO ONE should EVER be hitting anyone else, be they men/women/butches/femmes/whatever. There is never, EVER ANY excuse for being violent with another person. Mother taught my sister and me, very early in life, that if one person respects another, they will keep their hands off of them, and vice versa. (Mother is always right.) :heartbeat:

If you feel the need to "reach out and touch someone" in anger, you need to step back, walk away, regroup and get yourself some coping skills. Life is full of problems, and there's never, ever, any excuse to hit someone else.....unless it's in self defense and simply walking away is not possible....as in "no escape route".

There are so many damaged people out there, but there are more good, decent, loving, intelligent folks who are healthy and well adjusted. The trick is in knowing who's who and avoiding the bad apples.

Good luck to you in finding your one and only heart's desire. Believe me, there's someone out there for you who will tread you like spun platinum!!!! Don't ever settle for less. :winky:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[wetfromashower]

Abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of size, gender, or strength, yet the problem is often overlooked, excused, or denied. This is especially true when the abuse is psychological, physical and emotional abuse it can leave deep and lasting scars… abuse often escalates from threats and verbal abuse to violence. And while physical injury may be the most obvious danger, the emotional and psychological consequences of abuse are also severe. Emotionally abusive relationships can destroy your self-worth, lead to anxiety and depression, and make you feel helpless and alone. No one should have to endure this kind of pain—and your first step to breaking free is recognizing that your situation is abusive. Once you acknowledge the reality of the abusive situation, then you can get the help you need… There are many signs of an abusive relationship. The most telling sign is fear of your partner. If you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your partner—constantly watching what you say and do in order to avoid a blow-up—chances are your relationship is unhealthy and abusive. Other signs that you may be in an abusive relationship include a partner who belittles you or tries to control you, and feelings of self-loathing, helplessness, and desperation… It Is Still Abuse If . . .
• The incidents of physical abuse seem minor when compared to those you have read about, seen on television or heard other women talk about. There isn’t a “better” or “worse” form of physical abuse; you can be severely injured as a result of being pushed, for example.
• The incidents of physical abuse have only occurred one or two times in the relationship. Studies indicate that if your spouse/partner has injured you once, it is likely she will continue to physically assault you.
When people think of abuse, they often picture battered women who have been physically assaulted. But not all abusive relationships involve violence. Just because you’re not battered and bruised doesn’t mean you’re not being abused. Many women suffer from emotional abuse, which is no less destructive. Unfortunately, emotional abuse is often minimized or overlooked—even by the person being abused… Despite what many people believe, domestic violence and abuse is not due to the abuser’s loss of control over her behavior. In fact, abusive behavior and violence is a deliberate choice made by the abuser in order to control you… Abusers use a variety of tactics to manipulate you and exert their power:
Dominance – Abusive individuals need to feel in charge of the relationship. They will make decisions for you and the family, tell you what to do, and expect you to obey without question. Your abuser may treat you like a servant, child, or even as her possession.
• Humiliation – An abuser will do everything she can to make you feel bad about yourself or defective in some way. After all, if you believe you're worthless and that no one else will want you, you're less likely to leave. Insults, name-calling, shaming, and public put-downs are all weapons of abuse designed to erode your self-esteem and make you feel powerless.
• Isolation – In order to increase your dependence on her, an abusive partner will cut you off from the outside world. She may keep you from seeing family or friends, or even prevent you from going to work or school. You may have to ask permission to do anything, go anywhere, or see anyone.
• Threats – Abusers commonly use threats to keep their partners from leaving or to scare them into dropping charges. Your abuser may threaten to hurt or kill you, your children, other family members, or even pets. She may also threaten to commit suicide, file false charges against you, or report you to child services.
• Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.
• Denial and blame – Abusers are very good at making excuses for the inexcusable. They will blame their abusive and violent behavior on a bad childhood, a bad day, and even on the victims of their abuse. Your abusive partner may minimize the abuse or deny that it occurred. She will commonly shift the responsibility on to you: Somehow, her violent and abusive behavior is your fault.

Abusers are able to control their behavior—they do it all the time.
• Abusers pick and choose whom to abuse. They don’t insult, threaten, or assault everyone in their life who gives them grief. Usually, they save their abuse for the people closest to them, the ones they claim to love.
• Abusers carefully choose when and where to abuse. They control themselves until no one else is around to see their abusive behavior. They may act like everything is fine in public, but lash out instantly as soon as you’re alone.
• Abusers are able to stop their abusive behavior when it benefits them. Most abusers are not out of control. In fact, they’re able to immediately stop their abusive behavior when it’s to their advantage to do so (for example, when the police show up or their boss calls).
• Violent abusers usually direct their blows where they won’t show. Rather than acting out in a mindless rage, many physically violent abusers carefully aim their kicks and punches where the bruises and marks won’t show.
The cycle of violence in domestic abuse
Domestic abuse falls into a common pattern, or cycle of violence:

• Abuse – Your abusive partner lashes out with aggressive, belittling, or violent behavior. The abuse is a power play designed to show you "who is boss."
• Guilt – After abusing you, your partner feels guilt, but not over what she's done. She’s more worried about the possibility of being caught and facing consequences for her abusive behavior.
• Excuses – Your abuser rationalizes what she has done. The person may come up with a string of excuses or blame you for the abusive behavior—anything to avoid taking responsibility.
• "Normal" behavior — The abuser does everything she can to regain control and keep the victim in the relationship. she may act as if nothing has happened, or she may turn on the charm. This peaceful honeymoon phase may give the victim hope that the abuser has really changed this time.

• Set-up – Your abuser sets you up and puts her plan in motion, creating a situation where she can justify abusing you.
Your abuser’s apologies and loving gestures in between the episodes of abuse can make it difficult to leave. she may make you believe that you are the only person who can help her, that things will be different this time, and that she truly loves you. However, the dangers of staying are very real.

I've seen and heard some of my friends in these types of relationships... Some where lucky to still have a chance in life and some weren't... may those friends RIP... It's nothing to play with... This is your life we're talking about... I was one of the lucky ones... I as a Butch too was a victim long ago... I was in the relationship for six years... It took me six very long and abusive years to finally leave her... Don't be that person... turn around and walk away and never look back... This will effect you and any relationship you will have in the future... For a while I felt sooo embarrassed cause I let a Femme abuse me in the way she did and for as long as she did... She had that control and I give it to her... But I learned abuse came regardless of size, gender, or strength... Seriously Get Help and go talk to someone... I did and I was able to move forward... and if I can move forward you can too... As you can see there is a lot of caring people here willing to lend an ear and or a shoulder... Don't let that go to waste... Love and Believe in yourself and take the step to move forward and We're here to help any way we can.... May peace be with you...

[Morgan]

I know how difficult what you are going through is, I too at your age went through the same thing. I was 19 when I met my partner, she was 21 years my senior, we stayed together 3 years. She too promised it would not happen again, but in a drunken rage she would lash out and hit me...I am embarassed to say I believed her. She was much bigger than myself, I was small at the time, and she would overpower me. I am a butch, but it can happen to any of us. I watched as my mother was beaten by my stepfather when I was growing up. I knew it was wrong, but I stayed in my relationship, just as my mother had, hoping it would get better. I believed this woman was the one, she understood me and we shared so much, but I was mistaken....Leaving the relationship was the best thing I could have done. It was difficult and I felt so much love for her, but I cannot let someone hurt me or take a piece of me away. It took many years of therapy, but I learned from it and know I could never let that happen again.
Please get away from her....you do not deserve the hurt and the pain, she is not worth it, really. I will be 51 in a few days and I know from first hand experience it does get better....It really does.

[Lady_Di]

First of all kudos for you for sharing, that was very brave of you. And that is the beginning of your healing journey. ((((((dancer)))))

Love never dies, but it can be toxic nonetheless. Sometimes it may not work out. You owe it to yourself and your family, past present and future family to take care of yourself. For a change of pace...

There are many kinds of abuse in this big ole world. Live and learn, get the help, there is a lot out there. Access those resources which abound in pretty much every community, unless you are in Timbuktwo, though they probably have em too.

Great suggestions here. All I can say is nothing is ever black and white. The oddest thing about abusers is they can come off to the outside world as the most polite and gracious people on earth, they can seem to be very loving people. I am speaking from the experiences of those I have met that have been incarcerated for their brutal crimes. As a nurse we get to interact with these folks and it is unnerving that they are often times the easiest of our patient load. Down right respectful to us for the most part. Though again, it is not black and white.

I have rarely seen an abuser change it's spots. But I do think people can change, including you. And ultimately that is who you are responsible to and for. Change must happen. In fact if you are not changing, growing... you are stagnating and that is akin to death.

Live. It is a choice as to how you want to do that, who you want to have in your life, what sort of home, career, family you will have. What vocations, passions you will persue and keeping those around you who support you in whatever your endeavors may be.

Be strong and know you can get thru this. You have a ton of support here and in your real life community, I am quite certain of that.

Lean on us, continue to vent, problem solve, and continue this amazing journey of self discovery. Remember that sometimes from our pain, comes our finest triumphs, our biggest lessons.

Take Care,
Di

[JAGG]

Oh boy ! I won't sugar coat anything so here is my 2 cents worth. You said you couldn't believe this happened to you in the begining of your post, yet by the end you are entertaining the idea of maybe getting back with her. REALLY? She showed you who she is, why didn't you believe her the first time. You are what you do , plain and simple.
She has low self-esteem, she is insecure, abusive, clearly has a drinking problen that you don't seem to recognize, and she is unpredictable. Now what about that is so attractive to you ?
You need to tell her , not only NO BUT FUCK NO.
Why are you wasting your time giving this a moments thought. She has no respect for you and already bulldozed over many boundries. There are hundreds of awesome butches out there. Don't you deserve better?
Of course she wants you back, you already showed her you'll put up with her abuse. She is a needy coward, slam dunk her and choose better this time.

[TimilDeeps]

Oh boy ! I won't sugar coat anything so here is my 2 cents worth. You said you couldn't believe this happened to you in the begining of your post, yet by the end you are entertaining the idea of maybe getting back with her. REALLY? She showed you who she is, why didn't you believe her the first time. You are what you do , plain and simple.
She has low self-esteem, she is insecure, abusive, clearly has a drinking problen that you don't seem to recognize, and she is unpredictable. Now what about that is so attractive to you ?
You need to tell her , not only NO BUT FUCK NO.
Why are you wasting your time giving this a moments thought. She has no respect for you and already bulldozed over many boundries. There are hundreds of awesome butches out there. Don't you deserve better?
Of course she wants you back, you already showed her you'll put up with her abuse. She is a needy coward, slam dunk her and choose better this time.


I don't think I could have said it any better.

Go, go now.

[Dude]

http://www.cchers.org/cap/about.html

please read link above
I chose this page because it shows what healthy relationships are like in comparison.

any form of abuse is a cycle
Control ,manipulation, threats, isolation can be just as painful as finding
yourself in a punching bag situation.

At 26, I met my dream woman. Beautiful ,perfect body,hot in the sack and dripping with charisma. There was not much I would not do for her.
I played chicken with a car ( she was threatening suicide), took a super heavy ,glass ashtray to the head, nearly got clocked and burnt with a frying pan full of hot grease, dodged a hot iron flying through the air, etc,etc.

The honeymoon (I'm so sorry, I will do whatever you want,I'll do treatment and therapy followed by romance for days and mindblowing sex) all kept me hooked, for nearly nine months.
She could charm the pants off of any butch ( for a minute) and last I heard all these years later is that she is still doing the exact same thing.

My self esteem was in the fucking gutter because I could not fix her.
I was too young to get that ,it was not my job.
Nothing I did was good enough and I never knew what I was coming home to.
My life was isolated because it was humuliating and no one would understand.
My escape route was my dog who spent more and more time cowering in the basement versus getting love from me/us/her (The crazy couple.)
I loved my dog and hated to see what it was doing to her.Later, I focused
on what it did to me.

When you question your own sanity, feel smothered, are manipulated by
suicide threats, embaressed by public scenes and never know what your
coming home to, you are in an emotionally, abusive relationship.
When your opinion or well being does not matter and is never up for consideration or a priority to that person, why are you still there?
When someone tries to burden the bulk of the realtionship on you to fix
and you are not allowed time for any self care, friends or pleasure time (of your choosing) accept it for what it is and get the hell out. That aint love.

[Breathless]

I am struggling with responding to your thread. When I read all that you wrote, my heart really went out to you, because I could hear my own bargaining, and excuses, when I too said those things to myself.

When I came out, many years ago, I met this woman. I fell head over heals in love with her, she too was my first. We spent crazy amounts of time together, I thought wow, how could I have been so lucky. She lived in California, and I in western Canada. She didnt look down on me for having children, which I assumed who the heck would want to be with a single mom of two young ones. After being together for about 6 months things started to change. She would anger so easily, and I would find myself trying to calm her down, and reassure her. She would accuse me of sleeping around, of having more than just a friendship with my ex husband, of fooling around at work with co workers in a sexual way, and the list goes on. She apologized over and over again, saying that it was the distance that was making her insecure. So she moved in with me, I sponsored her to move to Canada. It only got worse. I thought i was deserving of this, that in some way I made her feel this way and act this way, and if i would just shut my mouth and stop coaxing her that she wouldnt feel she had to get angry with me so much.
New Years eve 2001, I was working a double shift, 3-11 and then back in the morning for 7-3. When I came home, she was sitting at the computer, I could see that she was in a foul mood, and i just needed to try to get some sleep before going back to work in the am. I put on my pjs and climbed into bed. Few minutes later she walked in the room, and turned on the lights.. she had my son's meds in her hand, and commented that i shouldnt leave things like this laying around and proceeded to take the pills. I was angry, and i got out of bed and tried to take them from her. The next thing I knew I was pinned to the floor, she had fist fulls of my hair in her hands, she was telling me that I was worthless, that I was lucky that anyone loved me, and many many more horrible things. I couldnt get away from her, I was begging her to let me go. She was saying things like she and my ex husband had a talk.. and the truth was out, that I was a shitty wife, and that I was fat, ugly and a waste of skin. I told her with tears running down my face, that I couldnt live like this anymore, please just let me go, her words.. by morning you wont have to worry about that, wonder what your kids will think coming home to mom's blood all over these walls. I snapped. I started agreeing with her, telling her that she was right, she had always been right. She finally let go of my hair. We were then sitting on the floor, and she was still telling me how messed up i was, and that i was lucky to have her in my life.. I continued to agree with her, i went to stand up and she grabbed me by my hair again and back to the floor. I asked her if she was thirsty? She let go of my hair and stood and walked ahead of me, i turned and ran for the door, out to my car bare foot in the snow. She was right behind me.. Tried to start it, I was shaking so hard I had no coordination, got out of the drive way, and she was right behind me, she hit me twice with her car, trying to run me off the road, I just kept going, I pulled up to a friends house, jumped out of my still moving car and ran up the step and banged on the door. I was unrecognizable, they called the police.

The police laid attempted murder charges on her. She made a deal with the government, and was deported rather than have to face charges.

I cut all my hair off cause i couldn't even stand the feeling of brushing it.

Dancer, you are worth it! I can tell you for fact, that there are some really amazing butches out there who would rather rip their own hearts from their chest than ever lay a hand on you in anger. You teach people how to treat you, and the very moment that she got away with anything it made it the norm. It will happen again, trust me, it will if you let her back in your life. It took many years of councilling and therapy for me to deal with what she had done to me.

I googled my ex, out of morbid curiosity, she has since been charged and convicted of doing the same thing to someone else. Thankfully the State of California was not as lax as the Canadian government was.


Love yourself!

[Apocalipstic]

I agree with Theo.

Hitting another person is wrong!

There is some wonderful advice here. Some of it I needed. :)

[Scorp]

NEVER, EVER raise your hands to anyone else, UNLESS, you're defending yourself in an altercation.

Anyone who hits out of "possession of property", and anything else of that nature, other than a defense mechanism is a fucking COWARD....

THE END...

[Inked_Trinity]

Being retired law enforcement, I have seen the cycle, the pain and the damage. They never mean it, and of course they'll change.....BULLSHIT! Don't just walk away from this, RUN! Jagg said it best for me.

[Dominique]

:praying: I've never been in an abusive relationship. One (my first Butch) was sometimes cranky and too controlling, but she NEVER hit me.

I dated someone for awhile who made me crazy. Did you ever have crazy love? Seriously, did you? Well, this one was my crazy love. One night she made me so mad....I tore the coke-a-cola BEARS boxers right off of her, then kicked her in the ass.:| I was glad a few minutes later that I was bare footed when I swift kicked her.

To add insult to injury. I found out later, they were my boxers. I swear that butch made me nuts. Glad I wised up and got away from her. Because it was crazy love, it was hard to break it off.

Yes, therapy is imperative.

[dancer611]

Possession of property??!

[CherylNYC]

Your ex will only keep hitting you. Don't go back to her. Ever. Not only should you not go back to your ex, you shouldn't get into a relationship with ANYONE right now. You say you hit your ex. Get therapy and don't even think about starting with a new girlfriend until you learn some good relationship models.

[Uli]

Please contact your local domestic violence shelter for support. When/if she figures out/feels like she can't get you back with sweetness and promises, you will very likely be in danger again.

This website will let you search for the shelter in your area: http://www.womenshelters.org/

All domestic violence shelters also offer non-residential services, such as support groups, individual counseling, and legal advocates.

[Dude]

Possession of property??!

I believe , what that poster meant by that was

*"the love you to death" & "if I cant have you, no one else will" people
*controlling ,possessive folks who now own you( or feel like they do)

[tazz]

Oh boy ! I won't sugar coat anything so here is my 2 cents worth. You said you couldn't believe this happened to you in the begining of your post, yet by the end you are entertaining the idea of maybe getting back with her. REALLY? She showed you who she is, why didn't you believe her the first time. You are what you do , plain and simple.
She has low self-esteem, she is insecure, abusive, clearly has a drinking problen that you don't seem to recognize, and she is unpredictable. Now what about that is so attractive to you ?
You need to tell her , not only NO BUT FUCK NO.
Why are you wasting your time giving this a moments thought. She has no respect for you and already bulldozed over many boundries. There are hundreds of awesome butches out there. Don't you deserve better?
Of course she wants you back, you already showed her you'll put up with her abuse. She is a needy coward, slam dunk her and choose better this time.

***amen, JAGG. amen...

get out NOW. RUN and Do Not Look Back.

[Scorp]

Dancer, are you quoting what I posted earlier? If so, please elaborate...


Possession of property??!

[Dude]

I read the opening post a few hours before I posted.
Somehow, ( I think brainwashing by society and who normally hits who sterio type bs)
I did not remember the part of you hitting her at all.
This would have definately changed my post, had I retained the whole story.

In my experience ,I was in such shock it was happening to me I was unable to
do much other than protect my head from getting pummeled or dodge flying objects.
The shame of getting physically battered by a femme was huge for me.
I found out later commiserating with one of her ex's that she equated violence with love and wanted it in return. She hit her back and they were magically abusive together for five years. The incidents became more life threatening like jumping out on the freeway,
wielding weapons on each other,etc.


I did get therapy over this event and a few other (not so choice) times in my life.

So yes, get therapy. Your self esteem will grow, you wont be insecure if you learn to value and love yourself. You wont believe the bs that you are less than , if not in a relationship. You wont want to be violent yourself if you learn to deal with your own anger.

Do not stop to hit someone who you are trying to get away from. hellooooo

People really do die sometimes. Sometimes because they stay, sometimes when they leave and sometimes on the inside from being beat down for way too long.
Dont fuck around with your life. The truth is never gentle in abusive situations.

[Tcountry]

I'll confess I didn't read everything everyone said....
but.....run.... get away & stay away
a lot of times it is not IF it will happen again but WHEN... even if they are in counseling.
& even if it didn't happen again....YOU would be waiting for it too... that doesn't breed a healthy relationship....

Go get counseling for U....& don't look back



*tip hat*

[dancer611]

Whoa, whoa. I didn't "batter" her, and I don't own any weapons whatsoever, nor would I threaten anyone with one...not sure if you're implying that I did, but...one of the reasons this has been hard is that, while I did slap her the one time, and felt/feel extreme guilt for it, it was when she was drunk, I was already terrified, she had pulled a knife on me and choked me previusly, and someone twice my size was bearing down on me, screaming in my face, and refusing to leave my apartment when I was begging them to out of fear. So, the question for me has been where the line is drawn. People/domestic violence websites will say the size, gender ID, etc., doesn't factor in, and on an emotional/moral level I agree, but physically it is simply untrue. She held me down and barely let me breathe for 15 minutes. She put all of her weight on me and almost crushed me. I could never do that to her, no matter how angry I was; and no matter how angry I was, or what she did to me, I COULD NOT defend myself. Slapping her did not hurt her. She did not even flinch. When she was chasing me down the street, I really had nowhere to go. She had taken my phone, we had been in her car, and she had pulled over where no one could see us and there were no houses. She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME. So I tried to fight back by hitting her, but still she grabbed me, and threw me down by my hair, then got in my face, pinned me down and continued to scream while I cried. So. I'm not saying that I made the correct decisions, or that everything I did was right. It clearly wasn't. But I was emotionally beholden to her at this point, and felt physically helpless. Even if I had TRIED, this could not have been "mutual abuse." She choked me on several occasions, poured a drink in my face once and pinned me down or threw me down several times, as well as brandishing the weapon. I slapped her once when I was already scared and trapped in an apartment (she, once again, took my phone so I couldn't call the police). So, even though I feel guilt, because violence is not the answer, a lot of these posts have focused on my one slap...and I feel that I have to be fair to myself, that this was a pattern for her (in past relationships as well), and not for me. She tried to make me feel that, because I attempted (always failing) to defend myself, I was "abusing" her too. And that's just not what happened.

[Random]

Whoa, whoa. I didn't "batter" her, and I don't own any weapons whatsoever, nor would I threaten anyone with one...not sure if you're implying that I did, but...one of the reasons this has been hard is that, while I did slap her the one time, and felt/feel extreme guilt for it, it was when she was drunk, I was already terrified, she had pulled a knife on me and choked me previusly, and someone twice my size was bearing down on me, screaming in my face, and refusing to leave my apartment when I was begging them to out of fear. So, the question for me has been where the line is drawn. People/domestic violence websites will say the size, gender ID, etc., doesn't factor in, and on an emotional/moral level I agree, but physically it is simply untrue. She held me down and barely let me breathe for 15 minutes. She put all of her weight on me and almost crushed me. I could never do that to her, no matter how angry I was; and no matter how angry I was, or what she did to me, I COULD NOT defend myself. Slapping her did not hurt her. She did not even flinch. When she was chasing me down the street, I really had nowhere to go. She had taken my phone, we had been in her car, and she had pulled over where no one could see us and there were no houses. She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME. So I tried to fight back by hitting her, but still she grabbed me, and threw me down by my hair, then got in my face, pinned me down and continued to scream while I cried. So. I'm not saying that I made the correct decisions, or that everything I did was right. It clearly wasn't. But I was emotionally beholden to her at this point, and felt physically helpless. Even if I had TRIED, this could not have been "mutual abuse." She choked me on several occasions, poured a drink in my face once and pinned me down or threw me down several times, as well as brandishing the weapon. I slapped her once when I was already scared and trapped in an apartment (she, once again, took my phone so I couldn't call the police). So, even though I feel guilt, because violence is not the answer, a lot of these posts have focused on my one slap...and I feel that I have to be fair to myself, that this was a pattern for her (in past relationships as well), and not for me. She tried to make me feel that, because I attempted (always failing) to defend myself, I was "abusing" her too. And that's just not what happened.

And you are wondering if you should give her another chance?

I think you just answered your own question...

and IMO anytime one partner hits another partner it is abuse... (Unless that's the way your dynamic is set up)

[dancer611]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

[Dude]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Now's your time to do something different.
Stay in the reality of how bad that felt and dont go back.

First you were making excuses for her now you are telling us how bad it was.
We believe you and we arent the enemy.

[CherylNYC]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

You've made some interesting statements. First of all, not many of the above posts mentioned your slap. Most of the posts have simply said that you MUST NOT return to your abusive ex. Staying away from that dangerous person is the most important advice everyone here has given you.

You speak about your single instance of slapping your ex as self defense. First, what on earth makes you think, even now, that slapping a violent person, who is twice your size, who has threatened you with a weapon, and who has made you fear for your life, is a defensive act? One of the reasons I think you should get into therapy and not a new girlfriend, is because that act still seems to make sense to you. Plus, you seem tempted to re-engage with your abuser.

I'm sorry if I sound overly harsh. I don't believe you've abused your ex, but I do believe you've engaged in a toxic pattern with her. Physically engaging as you've described with an abusive person twice your size seems to be your pattern in this relationship. Get out and get help.

[JustJo]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Hi Dancer,

I get what you're saying to an extent.

I think that if you are being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself....up to and including being violent in return.

However, just for me, when you go back again and again even after this has happened....and then you react with violence yourself....now you're in a mutually toxic and, yes, abusive situation.

Once someone has been violent or abusive with you once....and you go back...it isn't all on her. You need counseling too (in my opinion)....and going back and giving more and more chances is inviting the abuse to continue.

I wish you well with this....and my advice is what you've already heard. Run far, run fast, do not look back....and get the counseling you need....because you truly do need to see your part in this too so that it never happens again.

Hugs,
Jo

[*Anya*]

Dancer, everyone has given you the benefit of their knowlege and experience many times over in all of these posts.

It is totally up to you whether or not you chose to avail yourself of the feedback that you have received.

For those of us that have lived through abusive relationships, we understand the pull of a toxic relationship and also understand the tendency to defend both our own behavior and actions, as well as that of our abuser.

All of us only wish you the very best and hope that you find your way to a happier future for yourself.

[julieisafemme]

I know this is against the TOS but I feel in is necessary in the context of this discussion.

Dancer you have started a lot of threads. One is about where are the butches. One is about how to attract a butch when you feel insecure doing so. This one is about a butch who hurt you. It seems like you are all over the map here. I am posting because I was young and insecure once and made a choice to stay with a man who was not a good fit for me. I was insecure and confused and felt like he knew better than anyone. The truth was that I did not know myself. The last thing I should have been doing is being in a relationship with anyone.

I agree with everyone else that the best thing for you to do is to take some time to be with yourself. You are young and there is somuch out there for you to learn and explore that does not involve partnering with someone. I wish someone had said this to me or if they did, that I would have listened. Therapy can be transformative experience. You can work out these things in a safe space with boundaries. I am so lucky I found my therapist and that she was a gifted professional who gave me the space to work out a lot of things in a totally bounded, safe space. I wish you the best of luck and hope you will listen to the many wise people here who are speaking from experience.

[Dude]

People really do die sometimes. Sometimes because they stay, sometimes when they leave and sometimes on the inside from being beat down for way too long.
Dont fuck around with your life. The truth is never gentle in abusive situations.

Sometimes when they fight back ,they get to kill
or be killed.

I met someone who's ex shot themself over the phone. They were
long distance ,she had to call 911 , she lived ,they got back together, this lady didnt get a second date with me after that story.
woah to crazy kind of love
No Thank You!

[aishah]

we are not the best place to be turning to for help/advice. we don't know you that well, and even among friends who DO know you well, sometimes it is hard to give/receive advice when you don't know the full picture and when our own experiences with abuse are heavily influencing our response. if the purpose of posting here is just to get your story out or open up a general discussion on ipv in butch/femme relationships, that's one thing. but it seems like you are looking for some sort of advice or affirmation of what you did/what you should do next, and i'm not sure this is the best environment to get that.

you need to seek out a therapist and/or a support group with experience dealing with intimate partner violence in queer relationships. if you don't know of any i can help you find some via pm. but honestly that will be way more helpful than anything we can tell you.

So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

you're not crazy. leave, get counseling, encourage her to get counseling, maintain boundaries for the sake of your well-being.

[Toughy]

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......

[Random]

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......


Nods....

Years ago I was a smacker...

I thought it was CUTE and girly to smack my butch on the shoulder when she annoyed me... In that.. *Oh YOU, stop that* kind of way...

Never thought a thing about it...

Until she finally said... Will you stop hitting me?

Hitting her? I didn't hit her... I smacked her on the shoulder...

Then I thought about it... I was putting my hands on my partner in a not so loving way and it hurt/annoyed her...

Yep, I was hitting her... Techn is could be considered abuse...

Made me sick to my stomake and I've never smacked anyone like that again...

Non negotiated hitting is a no no...

[JAGG]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Always defend yourself. Turn into a wild tazmanian devil and unleash the fury of a 1000 wars on them. If you had done that from day 1 the coward would have never bothered you again. And she certainly wouldn't be trying to get back with you, I promise you that!!!
You said you slapped her when she wasn't drunk (and you felt guilty), then you say you were protecting yourself during a drunken attack. Which one was it? Whatever, it's your story you tell it. You started this thread to ask for advice or opinions. So don't be getting defensive and grouchy with people who give you the advice you are solicting. First of all it's free advice secondly most of us do care. Your anger is not with us, direct it towards your wonderful coward or yourself for allowing it . You have alot of misplaced emotions. You want to paint yourself up as a victim. But I have a news flash for you, you were only a victim the first time it happened. Anytime after that you are a volunteer. You had all my sympathy the first time it happened after that I just get annoyed.
We aren't trained therapists just people who care or have been there or know someone who has etc... we know what works for us.
I don't think anyone has the right to lay a finger on anyone else for any reason unless it's in self-defense. I highly doubt anyone here would advocate balling up in the fetal position and let yourself get plummeted instead of fighting back if you can. And even if they do, you asked for advice and you'll get it , lots of it, from all different points of view. Sometimes the ones that irk you the most, are the ones you should sit with for awhile and mull over. They probably have alot of truth to them, because the truth hurts if we have buried our heads in the sand too long.

[WickedFemme]

I'm going to try to keep this short and to the point... This is my story... I spent most of my adult life in unhealthy relationships until I sought therapy for myself. I used to play the victim role and that kept me in denial which allowed me to not take responsibility for my part in relationships. For me, being in my 20's and even my 30's were extremely painful. I didn't realize that I was looking to other people to fill an unmet need(s) within myself. I kept having experiences where I felt completely disappointed and kept blaming the other person. In the case of abuse, however, I know that I am not to blame for that regardless of my behaviors - no one has the power to make anyone do anything or feel anything. I had to own my own stuff and not take responsibility for someone else's stuff. It was difficult for me to come to the realization that I was unhealthy and extremely codependent. My core issues began in my childhood and kept playing out in my adult relationships. All I can say is that I am sooooo grateful that I got help and am able to function in a healthy manner in my adult relationships. I also know that I don't have to gossip or spread rumors about anyone anymore because that is 'toxic' and unfair regardless... especially if the other person isn't there to defend him/herself. Growing up is painful and i understand now that my past relationships are not the other persons' fault... I had a part as well. I harbored resentments and anger until I finally let that stuff go.

There have been some wonderful suggestions here and 'yes', running into another relationship is NOT the answer. The answer is doing the work on self and being a whole person... only then are you going to attract healthy whole people around you.

To the OP - I really understand and highly recommend you seek counseling for yourself... its really the only way. You won't feel better overnight because it took much longer than that to get to where you are now in your life, but it will get better. Fixing on relationships to feel whole or to avoid feelings of loneliness is not the answer... it's just a temporary fix and once the feelings of euphoria (high) is gone, you are left with yourself once again. Relationships can be like a drug and there are 12-step groups that can help like Codependents anonymous for example. I wish you well and hope that your 'path' is healthier than mine was. You show great courage putting yourself out there and i view that as a sign that you honestly do want help. Only an unbiased professionally trained person is going to be able to help you help yourself.

[WickedFemme]

here's the website for CoDA
http://www.coda.org/

[LaneyDoll]

I don't know how I'll meet another butch who meets all my emotional and physical and spiritual needs like she did, and like I did for her; who I can love as completely and connect to as deeply; who I can tell anything to without judgment; who will be interested in me and I in them, and we will both have eyes only for each other; who I can give my whole heart to and love unconditionally, and who will do the same for me. So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME.

So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

I think that if you read back to the replies that I quoted, you will answer all of your questions.

You are not crazy. If someone was attacking you, there may not have been much you could do. Yes, you should cut off contact with her. Any relationship with violence is NOT worth continuing.

So what do you do now? Learn from it, move on and be the best you can be-for yourself. Once you have everything where it should be in your life, someone will come into it and make it better. You will see. This is a lesson you learned so take that knowledge and use it to benefit yourself.

I promise that you will not be alone; but for the time that you are, it is better to be alone than fearful.

:)

:sparklyheart:

[dancer611]

I said she was drunk when she came into my apartment, which is why I asked her to leave.

[dancer611]

I thank you all for your advice. It is hard to convey the depth of something like this on a forum, obviously. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Of course it's hard to hear that people think you're fucked up, or that you want sympathy, or that it's partly your "fault" for going back to an abuser. (On a side note, my original post had nothing to do with her being butch. Her large size did, because it was part of how she intimidated and controlled me. But size doesn't make you butch and I don't think it's any more okay for femmes to hit butches than the other way around). So many people on this thread said they experienced abuse and kept going back...are they all "fucked up" as well, or exaggerating what happened to them, or is it their "fault" that the abuse continued? This happens to thousands of people everywhere, and the tendency is to blame the victim or to question if they are lying. I knew all this, and yet I allowed myself to be dragged into this as she slowly broke down my self-esteem, telling me no one else would ever love me and isolating me from my family and friends until I was afraid and alone. I became reliant on her as this continued.

As for the question about "what would her side of the story be," she has finally admitted that she is abusive (with the help of her therapist) and possibly bipolar, and (very) recently admitted to me that she had been in jail previously for domestic violence, against a girlfriend and a police officer, and has had to attend mandatory anger management twice, and that other girlfriends had accused her of physical abuse as well. These girls were dragged into it as well, sometimes for years. So no, she would not disagree with what I said. I just don't know how I could have been so stupid.

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

[MrSunshine]

why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me


that's the way of the human heart

[Gráinne]

Of course you can still love someone who beats the shit out of you. That's the dynamic that keeps women in these relationships (well, that's simplistic, but it's part of it). I've been there.

You need to love yourself more than you love this abusive person. And you are already ahead of the game in that you don't live together and I assume you are self-supporting. Millions of women are not. You have youth and no dependents (I'm also assuming). (I'm not discounting that men are abused also, and vastly underreported, but just looking at women for the moment).

Back when I was being slapped around and emotionally abused (which began much earlier than the physical), I searched for anything to make it stop-I literally walked on eggshells, careful not to set my partner off. I was sick, and I'll go as far as say I was in a form of insanity. I learned much later that I couldn't control the abuse or stop it, as the "rules" kept changing in our mutual dance of death.

I loved my partner, and when the times were good, they were great! That kept me there way too long. I won't go into the details, but I wound up in a battered women's shelter full of women who spoke versions of your post, and it was a long time before I totally extricated myself from that relationship. Then I had to take years of therapy and a lot of healing to address why and how I got into that situation, and how to have anything close to a healthy relationship. That work continues today, though I am 1000% better off now than then. I left with little, but Lord, things are better today even in the grimmest days.

It doesn't matter if she accosts you in your apartment or on the Moon. Unless you do this work on yourself, and get free (read Ginny McCarthy's book Getting Free, and do anything and everything in it), this person or someone like her will surely kill you. Don't let yourself be a victim or become a statistic.

[aishah]

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

this isn't what you asked. you asked "what should i do?"

the answer to that is "you should get counseling and maintain your boundaries."

the answer to the question in your later post is, as evidenced by everyone's posts here, YES, many of us have been through the same thing and we know what it feels like.

and yes, it's possible to still feel something. i still feel love for people who have abused me. i have even stayed in a relationship with someone when they committed to getting help and working on their destructive patterns (and when the abuse was an isolated incident), and the outcome was positive. that's rare though. 99% of the time, the absolute best thing you can do for yourself is GET OUT. feel the feelings and whatever - they're going to come up. find a safe place to feel them. but get out and maintain boundaries until both of you have done some work. that is the only way to deal with the feelings of guilt and shame and put them into perspective.

[JustJo]

Hi Dancer :rrose:

I understand completely feeling like you love that person and want to give them another chance. In fact, I think abusers count on that in their targets...and pick people who will keep giving them second, third, and fourth chances.

I am not even going to pretend any deep knowledge of matters psychological....but I was in counseling at one point....and my therapist shared this list with me. Please read it with your abusive partner in mind....and look at what it says about how they view those in their lives. I know this is about sociopaths and not abusers per se....but I'm seeing patterns and wonder if you will too.

Having said that...having the information isn't always enough. Some of us, myself included, are slow learners.

Please don't take what you're reading in this thread as an attack. It isn't. And please, for your own health and well-being, find a good counselor who can help you....you deserve it.

Here's the list:

Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

[Breathless]

Okay in fear of coming across as anything less than completely sincere, and empathetic.. the way I understood the beginning of this thread was that, you were having a problem/issue/concern/need to vent about a current situation that you were having, and looking for advice (since that is what happens when you say it out loud to a world full of people) Yet there is another thread that was started by you as well, that makes it sound ? Ancient history? Or no longer a current concern?

Please dont bite my head off, I was just posting on a different thread and the topic was much different attitude, and when i noticed that the threads were started within a day of each other by the same original poster, made me wonder who is on the other side of the screen.

Not that I or anyone else is owed any kind of explanation, just feeling a little confused.

[Quintease]

What I don't understand is how I can still have such strong feelings for her.

Why? Fear, instability, lack of security, danger.

Your strong feelings are not love, they are your survival instincts kicking in.

People think their survival instincts are going to protect them from dangerous situations, however instincts cannot think for themselves, they can only react. All your instincts 'know' is that you are in a dangerous situation. Humans are a social animal, and what do social animals do when they sense danger? They bind together.

You are trying to bond with this woman as you are afraid, only she is the reason you are in danger. Get. Out.

[Quintease]

Actually this (http://www.mamamia.com.au/relationships/i-survived-domestic-violence/) is a well written article about DV.

[deedarino]

Domestic violence screws with your head, terribly. It takes your self esteem to the ground and stomps it out. If you stay long enough, you don't know what is up or down, right or wrong, love or hate.

Once a victim, you need time. You need help, professional help. It sounds like you are still spinning, looking for answers to a question there are no answers for. You have to let your ex go, you can do nothing for her/him now. YOU CANNOT FIX THEM. You have to fix yourself.

Go learn to breathe, to stop thinking it over and over, learn to love yourself. Learn the warning signs and the ways to step around when you see it coming. Become strong enough to walk away from love if you need to.

The truth is, unless you do, you are at risk of it happening again.

[princessbelle]

Domestic violence screws with your head, terribly. It takes your self esteem to the ground and stomps it out. If you stay long enough, you don't know what is up or down, right or wrong, love or hate.

Once a victim, you need time. You need help, professional help. It sounds like you are still spinning, looking for answers to a question there are no answers for. You have to let your ex go, you can do nothing for her/him now. YOU CANNOT FIX THEM. You have to fix yourself.

Go learn to breathe, to stop thinking it over and over, learn to love yourself. Learn the warning signs and the ways to step around when you see it coming. Become strong enough to walk away from love if you need to.

The truth is, unless you do, you are at risk of it happening again.

Very good point deedarino.

Someone taught me this a long time ago and when you "get it" it does help and make things much easier in life....

Remember your love is yours. YOU choose who to give it too. You can feel love for many people but to give it to someone is a choice. No one can take it. No one can claim ownership of your heart. YOU control that.

Give it to those who deserve it. Whether it be relationship or friendship or family. Take that control back.

Hugs to you in this difficult time.

[Dude]

One more story about an ex coworker of mine and then I'll shut up.
Gorgeous woman, immepecible dresser,this woman has a million things going for her. Great personality ,sweet ,caring mother and grandmother.
The kind of woman who other women envy for her looks ,body and put together stuff.
She's been with a very handsome,very charming but mentally abusive ass for fifteen years. He insults and degrades her daily. She believes him and has zero self esteem. She tried moving in with her daughter 2000 miles away,
two years ago.She came back to him with the excuse she had a lot of stuff here, still in their (his) house.
Shit is getting bad again, she's selling things and plans on moving to her daughters again, this time for good. He wants her to sell her car which is the only thing
she has left AND her only escape. Fifteen years with this man and she is not on the mortgage.
He's like a drug to her that she just cant seem to stop.
This time she's talking more about the abuse and is keeping her escape a secret.
She now suddenly see's that coming back was a choice and a very unhealthy one.
After giving it fifteen years of her life to get better, her denial is fortunately and finally, fading.

Dancer,
I do have to say it seems weird that your looking for butch's while going
through all this emotional, upheaval in your life. You would be using someone to make yourself feel better and if you would'nt want that done to you, then dont do it.
Counseling will help you learn about you ( who you really are) and what makes you happy.

[Lady_Di]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

I used to council women and men *yes, they get abused and raped too* - and I always was trained and believe it is true. You do whatever you have to to survive. Shout, scream, run... get away.

and they are most dangerous after you have left, so you have to keep your guard up

we call it being hyper vigilant


I agree with what Jagg said and the way Jagg said it!

Run.

Get help and do not go back!

[dancer611]

@Breathless, I looked through the threads I posted and I'm not sure which one you mean because I didn't mention any abuse in any other threads. I mentioned BDSM only in the form of (light) spanking, which I do enjoy, and which we took full advantage of in the beginning of our relationship (and died down once the drinking/these incidents started up, because the trust began to wane) but surely you are not suggesting that consensual play/sexual spanking is abuse?? And also my "attitude" was different because I wanted to talk generally about fun BDSM spankings, which I've always like to give and receive, not to go into sordid details about my failed abusive relationship. But if you were talking about a different thread, then disregard all that.

But to the rest of you, thank you for your continued support. This has messed with my head a lot. I realize what happened to me and it's hard not to blame myself. I am definitely getting counseling to deal with it.

[Novelafemme]

"Remember your love is yours. YOU choose who to give it too. You can feel love for many people but to give it to someone is a choice. No one can take it. No one can claim ownership of your heart. YOU control that.

Give it to those who deserve it. Whether it be relationship or friendship or family. Take that control back."

Belle, this is the best advice I have seen in this thread. Thank you!

And Dancer, please don't beat yourself up for considering going back. You are NOT a failure for mulling over the "what-if's"...many of us have been there, myself included. That being said, cherish yourself first and foremost and please don't allow anyone ever to diminish your self-worth.

[Apocalipstic]

I get starting the different threads, sometimes when my mind is spun out I grasp at straws too. I want to engage my mind in something fun like flirting :). Yes therapy is a way better idea, but I get it.

And it is exceedingly difficult, when someone tells you they are sorry, to turn your back when you love someone. They say they don't remember, or you triggered them, or they were drunk.....it won't ever happen again. But bottom line it did happen and it can happen again.

I don't know u Dancer or how you came up, but if you grew up being abused as I was, someone abusive and angry seems familiar...but it is a cycle that needs to be broken for your own mental and physical safety.

Take care of yourself. Do things for you. Stay busy.

[Laidbackgrly]

My first real gf was very abusive she never laid a hand on me her voice and choice of words and Temper,yelling holes in walls, tossing plants across the room ,lamps breaking , picking dirt and glass out of the carpet was typical.Our first house together she told me i was to have dinner on the table by the time she got home i did it to keep peace , she took me far away from what lil family I did have I had no friends in the country i worked and helped buy everything we had she was in AA and was friends with her ex still we talked one nite she told me about the drunks side of her wasnt much of a difference i have the sober id go to work and read the posters on the walls in the ERs in the Hospitals about about abuse and was in such denile she called my job to make sure i was there working she would stay up waiting in the dark for me if i worked late we would fight for ever the cycle never ended for 7 years i thought that was love then I realized that wasnt love neither one of us had to be happy she laffed in my face when the police said i had no rights everything was in her name i lost all i helped her buy she had nothing when we met and everything when i walked out.:phonegab:I spoke to her only once to remove her name off some documents ill be happy never to see her again she was miserable!and abusive!

[Quintease]

My ex was abusive. First it was controlling behaviour, trying to alienate my friends and constantly making drama. Of course, it didn't end there and eventually she assaulted me, only to be 'offended' when she discovered I'd been talking about it with my friends. To the day I finally cut her out of my life she refused to accept she'd done anything wrong, it was me who was in the wrong as I'd provoked her :eyebrow: Unfortunately for her I never blamed myself for her bad behaviour.

I just wish I'd had the sense to get out before things escalated, but I went into the relationship believing she was a nice person. It took a while to accept I'd been duped.

[Breathless]

[QUOTE=dancer611;557501]@Breathless, I looked through the threads I posted and I'm not sure which one you mean because I didn't mention any abuse in any other threads. I mentioned BDSM only in the form of (light) spanking, which I do enjoy, and which we took full advantage of in the beginning of our relationship (and died down once the drinking/these incidents started up, because the trust began to wane) but surely you are not suggesting that consensual play/sexual spanking is abuse?? And also my "attitude" was different because I wanted to talk generally about fun BDSM spankings, which I've always like to give and receive, not to go into sordid details about my failed abusive relationship. But if you were talking about a different thread, then disregard all that.

This is what I am referring to..

Your original post in this thread.. note date and time

03-29-2012, 09:11 PM


This is going to be a tough one for me. I thought my last (and first; I'm only 22 and didn't figure any of this out until 21, so I haven't had a lot of time!) girlfriend was the love of my life.

Next thread, note date and time

03-29-2012, 06:00 AM


Insecurities; I worry that women won't/don't like me

I have always, and continue to, attract primarily straight men. Older, younger, whatever. I've been with several women, but it's harder for me to catch their interest when I'm out and about, it seems. Even if I go to a gay bar or LGBT event, butch women may or may not look me over, but don't approach me. I'm not sure if it's because they think I'm straight (is there anything I can wear/do/etc. to show I'm not?), or because I'm just not attractive to them. This has caused me to worry a lot about the future! Any advice/thoughts?

Third thread, again note date and time
03-29-2012, 05:49 AM
Are butches really a dying breed?

I've heard time and time again that butches are "dying out," that there are tons more femmes than butches and that that trend will likely continue. I haven't been out long and don't know much about the overall community. Is this true, or a myth that people in femme-heavy areas like to throw around?

So Dancer, this is what is making me confused. You have been a member for a very short period of time, welcome to the site. But dear dancer, there seems to be inconsistencies. In a 15 hour period you post from only having had one girlfriend ever, and being quite hurt and confused and tramatized with the abuse that has happen, (I am in no way questioning the truth in what has happened to you, as I strongly believe that .. that in its self would be revictimizing ) then in another post you are mentioning having had been with several women and are looking to be back in the dating scene, yet in the original post at the starting of this thread, it sounds as if you just finally got out of that relationship.

I was not going to respond again after my original post about being confused, however you have called me out to explain.

[Gentle Tiger]

Hello Everyone.

The subject of abuse is a sensitive one. It has infected and affected several in our communities. And therefore, it is one that we should definitely talk about in general. But we need to be very careful and clear about where the limits are. We want to support one another. And we want our members safe.

Such a discussion thread should not be viewed as a place of counselling. We as Butch Femme Planet are not equipped to provide solutions to very real problems. Even those who are licensed professionals cannot truly speak to anyone's specific situations since there is very limited involvement with those involved in the traumatic situations.

We strongly encourage anyone dealing with abuse in any form to seek professional help immediately. Utilize the resources available to you through legal means, support groups and individual therapy. The Planet is not such a resource. The Planet should not be used as an alternative to seeking professional help to ensure one's safety and emotional well being.

In light of this, we are closing this thread which was created to address a specific problem. Again, you are free to discuss the issue of abuse in a general way. Please be careful and sensitive in your posts.

Thank You,
Malcolm (Moderator)