It Hurts Me.

[Firedance]

As a Femme, I love Butches, and I LOVE Butches. But right now I have a bone to pick with some of you.

You are here. You know, we Femme's are only truly seen by those of us who can hear the music of, "The Dance". We are both, inexplicably more fully alive when in the presence of the other, even if we are strangers, even if there is no attraction, and yes, even if we are simply friends.

I can handle being invisible. I have coming out to strangers down to an art form. I have a 30 second, two minute, and 20 minute version of my own gender-education/dynamic-education talk that I deliver to strangers, acquaintances, and friends regularly.

When a Butch walks in the room a part of me can relax. I know there is one person in the room that I don't have to explain my identity to. One person I don't have to educate. One person that can See Me.

Except...

Maybe you don't.


I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!


Yes I know that I will be served more quickly and kindly pretty much everywhere. This is why I step up and handle interactions with ignorant/biased strangers often. I know how hard life is as a Butch and so I happily ease the way when I can. I've got your back. When your friend is taking your picture and tells you to, "Act like a girl. Damn it!" I respond, "She is!" (for my female ID'ed friends). When a stranger looks at you and sneers. I catch their eye and raise my eyebrow, and the smirk on my face let's them know they don't know you, and they have no idea what they are missing out on. In a million other way's I've got your back.

So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To all the Butches who have never, and would never, think of saying such things to a Femme; I thank you. Your strength and respect is what keeps The Dance alive for me.

~Fire.

[JAGG]

Yikes! Sorry that happened to you. I can see why that would tick a person off.

[thedivahrrrself]

I can relate, Fire, and thank you for saying it.

"I can handle being invisible. I have coming out to strangers down to an art form. I have a 30 second, two minute, and 20 minute version of my own gender-education/dynamic-education talk that I deliver to strangers, acquaintances, and friends regularly. "

This made me laugh out loud, because I have the same 3 versions, depending on the audience!

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry this happens to you FD! I have had it happen, but not in a long while. The closer I get to 50, the less I am asked to use my cleavage to get things. Not sure if its respect of my age, or that my Butch/Trans friends know better. :)

[Firedance]

Thanks Jagg.

Honestly the first time it happened it shocked me a little.

The 12th time it happened by the 6th Butch. I had to sit down and write to figure out for myself exactly why it bugged me so much.

And thank you too ladies. It has happened often enough I knew I wasn't the only one who has experienced it!

[The_Lady_Snow]

It sucks that these particular butches chose to pimp you out for amenities.

It's pretty gross and you should copy that eloquent fuck you that you shared with us mail it so they know not to do that shit with you or ANY woman again!

[JAGG]

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I just thought of something firegal. I will probably get slammed for this but if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself. Bet that would crack their face.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

[Turtle]

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And none of us were born knowing all of this complicated identity business, we learn about it and work through it as we develop into more full wonderful human beings until the day each of us dies…that’s part of what I find so amazing…we keep learning until the moment we die (and maybe even after).

The Planet is wonderful for being a place where we can all mash this stuff around, hearing other ideas, as we figure out what is best for ourselves.

Do I have my moments when I get pissed off or frustrated at other people's unknowingness – yes…and I try to remind myself of the times I have said something dumb or hurtful…I still think nasty things, less often than I used to, but a lot of me moving better in interactions with others has to do with slowing down in my reactions.

I much more appreciate a kind explanation of how I fucked up rather than getting smacked upside the head. I used jump up in people’s shit, but I think the learning and behavior change is more important than the reprimand, so I’ve gone gentle in hope of progress.

I have had friends who would bat their eyelashes to get what they want…or act dumb…or wiggle body parts. I’ve ALWAYS wanted stuff and to be what I consider “boy”…but maybe at different times in my life I have chosen to present as more strongly male and and have been overweight to pre-deflect cis-male judgments, advances, and assumed liberties.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

I give thanks for the learning and for all the ways people have had my back…and I try to be there for other people in the learning and because we all have needed or will need someone to stick up for us.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

[girl_dee]

Sure does make us appreciate people who treat us with respect

at my former job i worked with a ton of men, i got hit on at times, but once i came out i got hit on 10 times as much and not in a good way.

Straight, gay or indifferent disrespect is never ok!

[Rockinonahigh]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with people like this,it's wrong,bad manners and dosent show any type of class act.I promis there are butches who are careing and thoughtful and will treat a lady right.

[Apocalipstic]

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.

[JAGG]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!


In other words use your OWN body to get chu some toast!

That's right, if you want to deny who she is, then she should deny who you are.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think Turtle has it right though, we have to teach people how we want to be treated, we can't expect all Butches to just know how we want to be treated...especially when its so different from Femme to Femme.

I know Femmes who LOVE to be asked to use their beauty or cleavage to get stuff done, just as I know plenty of Butches who would never ask.

We all are different and need different things from each other.


I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

[Beloved]

I can relate, Fire, and thank you for saying it.

"I can handle being invisible. I have coming out to strangers down to an art form. I have a 30 second, two minute, and 20 minute version of my own gender-education/dynamic-education talk that I deliver to strangers, acquaintances, and friends regularly. "

This made me laugh out loud, because I have the same 3 versions, depending on the audience!

I'd like to hear all of these, please! Or does it need it's own thread?

[Apocalipstic]

I guess as a female bodied person I expect those like me or have the same herstory to NOT super impose binary shenanigans on me.

One no, one explanation should be enough, common courtesy should BE expected it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what's right and what's wrong.

LMAO, yeah...one would hope. :)
and no one does that to me any more.
Not sure if its my age, or just that they know better now after trying it once. :)

I totally agree that common courtesy should be expected, but not everyone learned it growing up and must be taught how to act now. (around Me, if they want to be around Me lol)

[JAGG]

I'd like to hear all of these, please! Or does it need it's own thread?

Please don't encourage her..... you will create a monster. Lol

[thedivahrrrself]

Please don't encourage her..... you will create a monster. Lol

LOL Yes, JAGG knows it's hard to pull me down from a soapbox!!



That would be a good thread for the Femme Zone! We all have to be experts in coming out, over and over again, because we are somewhat invisible. I used to don uber-short hair just to try to look more "lesbian" LOL It still didn't work.

[Jess]

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks! :)

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you :rrose:

[Apocalipstic]

LOL Yes, JAGG knows it's hard to pull me down from a soapbox!!



That would be a good thread for the Femme Zone! We all have to be experts in coming out, over and over again, because we are somewhat invisible. I used to don uber-short hair just to try to look more "lesbian" LOL It still didn't work.

Showing up with a BullDyke is the only thing that really says it for me. I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

I really don't explain much any more....but when I do, its "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian". If they ask why Butches rather than bio men? I ask how graphic they want my reply to be.

[Apocalipstic]

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks! :)

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you :rrose:

I know because I used to be one of those Femmes. I thought that was all I had going for me.

[thedivahrrrself]

I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.


ROFL I would draw the line there too. I've worn rainbow necklaces, but people still ask me if I'm at the pride parade to support my gay brother or something. I want to yell, "Not all queer women have mullets, you know!" but alas, I'm usually much more polite....

[Apocalipstic]

ROFL I would draw the line there too. I've worn rainbow necklaces, but people still ask me if I'm at the pride parade to support my gay brother or something. I want to yell, "Not all queer women have mullets, you know!" but alas, I'm usually much more polite....

OMG, people are idiots.

[Hack]

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

[LaneyDoll]

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

Having someone's back is not an easy thing to do. It is a balancing act at times. Riley & I went shopping recently and I hovered near the dressing room, just in case there was an issue. But, I tried to do it in a way that did not take away from his masculinity. Some girls may not know how to do it in a way that shows support without "showing up."

:sparklyheart:

[Firedance]

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire



You've identified the crux of it Turtle. In this community my expectations are different. I expect Butches, boi's and Trans Men to acknowledge and respect my queer gender and sexuality, my identity.

I wrote my friend, whom I respect, and enjoy hanging out with, and let her know I was about to post this, because I believe in transparency in friendships as well as governments. She promptly apologized, and we are good. She wasn't the first, and I doubt she will be the last. And I figured something out about myself. I was finally able to put into words why I felt betrayed.

I chose to share my thoughts in the hope that those of us who participate in this dynamic could have exactly this dicussion. I Know I'm not the only Femme that expects this type of respect. And I suspect there are Femmes who would not have been bothered at all by those statements.

Clarity, clarity is a good thing!

[Firedance]

Showing up with a BullDyke is the only thing that really says it for me. I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

Amen. Amen. And again I say Amen!!!


I really don't explain much any more....but when I do, its "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian". If they ask why Butches rather than bio men? I ask how graphic they want my reply to be.

Grin... Smirk... I am feeling the Femme-Sista Love on this one!!

[Apocalipstic]

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

[macele]

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

[Apocalipstic]

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative (f)

[thedivahrrrself]

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative (f)

I completely agree. And the hardass ones can be a lot of fun, but sometimes they need a little "training" LOL We call those "rough around the edges".

[Quintease]

Reading this I realise I've been told a lot that I can 'flirt with men to get blah blah done' except no, I don't and never have flirted with men for anything.

I think it's the expectation that we have straight privilege and therefore will be comfortable to 'trick' people into thinking we're sexually available and therefore eligible for free favours from heterosexual men. Forgetting of course that we don't want it. Just like we don't want attention from men.

[Firedance]

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks! :)

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you :rrose:

I quite agree, different people, different expectations, different dynamics.

However for me, this issue goes deeper than personal preference. I almost titled the thread, "How to kill The Dance". Which may sound overly dramatic, at the same time, it is true for me. If my gender/sexuality is not recognized by a counterpart, be they Butch/boi/Trans Man then there IS no dance. There is no dynamic. To me, this speaks to the soul of our micro-culture, and the history of our dynamic.

I have a hard time imagining any OFOS partner casually tossing a Femme at a straight guy... Lol. And yes, once it really was for a piece of toast!

[puddin']

unpracticed manners, isn't dat an oxymoron?

[Strappie]

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".

To me I see absolutely NO RESPECT on the butches part! If hy/shy wants a free drink go find someone to buy it for you. Don't ask your date to exploit herself for you.

I'm honestly furious over what people have done to you!


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!

AMEN!!!


So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To all the Butches who have never, and would never, think of saying such things to a Femme; I thank you. Your strength and respect is what keeps The Dance alive for me.

~Fire.

grrrrrrr I'm disgusted!!

[Hack]

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.

:)

Jake

[durrrrrrrr]

first of all. FireDance, I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

as for myself, I taught myself ( cuz my Dad was and is an ass , my Mother passed away when i was young ) to treat ALL ladies with respect.

not only treat the ladies with respect, treat EVERYONE with respect. I try to and dont have to work at that to hard, to practice that every day.

I offer my chair if i see a lady standing, I will offer my chair if i see a butch standing.

if i see a lady who is walkin behind me, I will open and leave the door open for her. I will do that also for anyone walkin behind me.

It's the simple things that can make anyone's day

[~ocean]

I can totaly understand y a butch would ask hys femme to deal with the male ego in a situation that hy ( ur lover/partner ) might be challenged in.. No one has ever asked me on a date to use my femmine charms . That's just "Bad Manners"...There wouldn't be a second date .. Now this is where being an attractive femme woman comes in to play, In the past, (this past saturday even ) and in my future I do and will use my femmine ways to get what I want from the male ego. Bash me if u want, if the shoe was on the other foot, u know a man would take advantage as well,they have and the will. Soo sry Fire it happened to you on a date.
~ocean

[SweetJane]

Firedance, I'm sorry this keeps happening to you. It truly isn't respectful.

But I so understand and resonate when you wrote:
You know, we Femme's are only truly seen by those of us who can hear the music of, "The Dance". We are both, inexplicably more fully alive when in the presence of the other, even if we are strangers, even if there is no attraction, and yes, even if we are simply friends.

It isn't just being invisible. It is being who we are. We need our counterparts in the dance to validate who we are, to let us relax and just be, and know we are femme. When they try to trade what we are into a currency that benefits them, that's exploitation. And it's truly very sad.

[Mtn]

I cannot IMAGINE ever suggesting that my girl "go get something done" via her femininity. That's crass and feeds into some heteronormative, "women are pretty so let's use them" mindset that I cannot begin to understand. It's disrespectful.

[Viola]

Sensing tone from your message firedance, so responding in tone

Dance... Will my soul spirit dance also?

I'm sorry to hear you firedance go through this...

I have different challenges then you, where I don't know how to connect in a social way, I'm autistic an autistic femme,

So as me who's drawn toward butches, I don't go to social anything...

So I'm not known in social.

I fear social, I couldn't go where you went -

those butches were, who demanded from you - this wasn't a dance - this was greed so empty shallow, asking a body of empty pleasures.

I wish I had the abilities to verbally socialize.

But as hard as I tried to over come, I'm realizing I'll have this challenge for the rest of my life, so I'm learning a pain of sadness of acceptance a loss that I'll never be socially and so I morn a loss that I thought maybe I could over come,

but in my morn of loss and my deep challenges I still go through, I can't be only body.

And I think the reason why is cause my body is unkind toward me, the challenges has made me turn to my soul spirit for my purpose in a deeper understanding a dance where share a simple word share, sounds simple, but share is a relationship and not an exchange.

I sense those butches thought in exchange and expected you to approach the exchange, I sense this tone from your message.

I read your message as these butches wants you to approach and actually if I were in your shoes and these butches said this to me, how would I feel?

First I probably feel empty, cause it sounds more like these butches wants to be entertain and wants you to just entertain them and expects you to, .

I'm very shy and hidden where I won't show off body parts cause I feel shallow... So if butches wants me to show, I will question their motives. Who do they really want? I'm not only body.

Maybe thats it, this that is in the air when they demand you, they're shallow and wants you to be shallow.

and this is why you feel this, I'm guessing, what bugs you.

I'm analyzing this ok...

I'm not just a body, I have a soul and spirit, plus what if I have a body that is what a butch wants, what would happen if months later, I get in a car accident and I end up burnt and injured and or what if I get cancer or what if, I can't walk, then what...

Can we still dance?

If its not shallow I say yes...

will these butches who demand from you be there, or is it shallow...

and visa versa, femmes can be shallow and only be there when body is...

but that is only a body, plus if only body and of course there's not such thing as only body cause if there was only body it will be a dead body,

so what then is going on if only body, what's going on to the spirit and soul then if only body, is it only what?

An exchange but what's being exchange of what, if only body but what's moving the body, and only exchange of, with in shallow, if dance in this, is spirit soul then being sold, but sold to what?

I went through so much the challenges my body has given me, I can't be only my body, I can't...

if butches acted like this to me: I will question who am I really, I would say to these butches, who are you - the body is a house, are you a house only how shallow.

even if you speak of dance, what is dance, isn't dance energy...

what is femme and butch actually?

I read at here BFP about friendship before lover...

I'm really thinking of this more and more and more...

Who am I?

I'm soul spirit so in dance will my soul and spirit also dance too?

To whom approach at what time isn't the question or even the dance, for there's no rules when in relationship, for what rules can there be when dance is of soul and spirit?

If rules were only, its an exchange performance that's sold to an ability that's fragile and will die

Laws dance high in pride condemns empty and dies.

[jessiel]

...fire, I like the fact that you also say that you don´t mind cover up when needed to ignorante ppl. But I can relate to your words far to much and think its a topic that is more common than spoken about.

:pirate-steer:

[Apocalipstic]

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.

:)

Jake

first of all. FireDance, I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

as for myself, I taught myself ( cuz my Dad was and is an ass , my Mother passed away when i was young ) to treat ALL ladies with respect.

not only treat the ladies with respect, treat EVERYONE with respect. I try to and dont have to work at that to hard, to practice that every day.

I offer my chair if i see a lady standing, I will offer my chair if i see a butch standing.

if i see a lady who is walkin behind me, I will open and leave the door open for her. I will do that also for anyone walkin behind me.

It's the simple things that can make anyone's day

Would that every Butch were as gallant as you two! :) :praying:

[BullDog]

Hmmm, well all the talk about being courteous and polite to femmes and opening doors and such is all well and good, but to me what the OP was talking about was quite a bit deeper than that. I think she is talking about being honored and valued for who she is as a femme- she is just as lesbian and/or queer as her butch counterpart, so why would a butch ask her to go flirt with a male? She is not straight. Femmes are just as lesbian and/or queer as butches. Treat them as such and respect them for who they are.

[Kobi]

It saddens me to read things about people with questionable manners who make illogical assumptions and demands on other people.

It makes me think things like people are not seen as people but as objects. That it is ok to use others to get things....even something as simple as a piece of toast. That it is a power and privilege thing. That it is a game of unhealthy interpersonal dynamics.

I dont see it as a butch thing or a femme thing or a spectrum thing. I see it as a people thing. People do weird shit for even weirder reasons.

I also dont necessarily see this behavior as a character issue tho it does raise some red flags. Sometimes, the behavior has a malacious intent. Sometimes it may be inexperience or role confusion or other things.

Regardless of where it comes from, dont hesitate to stand up for yourself. There is nothing sexier than a woman who demands the respect she deserves.

[JustJo]

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!

~Fire.

Wow....honestly, I'd be pretty furious with anyone who asked me to do this....

I also find that I tolerate less and less bullshit as I get older....and I was also probably a smart-mouthed bartender for wayyyyy too long....so I'd probably say, "uh huh, you want me to offer him a blow job and see if I can get you a ham steak?"

Sometimes people need to have it made clear exactly how much of an asshole they are being.

[LaneyDoll]

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".




I think the part of this that really bothers me is that you use "butches" (plural) and list multiple examples. So, obviously this has happened more than once, from more than one person. Why would anyone assume that someone can/will "make things happen" and how many other femmes have said butches requested this of?

:sparklyheart:

[Viola]

This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear could the same happen if I be around butches, would my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

[tara_kerrie]

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

[tara_kerrie]

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.

:)

Jake

Nice to meet you Jake. I agree 100%

[Apocalipstic]

This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear actually this happening by butches, where my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

Great post! :)

I think with each of us individually, there are ways we want and need to be treated and I think it is important to remember that not everyone will know how we expect to be treated...since it is different for each person.

There is not set way Femmes must be treated, or Butches must be treated. There is no handbook we all have, even though at times it may seem everyone else has the handbook but me.

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out. I was surprised. I am used to a Butch who comes politely to the door to pick me up....but on more reflection, I realize that I was shocked because of my own expectations of what Butch is, and how I might act if I asked out someone Femme. I can't do this, all I can control is me. I can tell someone I want them to knock on the door to pick me up or not But unless I actually tell the person what is bothering me, as it sounds like the original poster did, then if I am angry, the only person I am hurting is me.

Am I making sense?

[Apocalipstic]

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners. :)

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated. :)

[tara_kerrie]

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners. :)

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated. :)

Apoc, in this case I think slamming younger butches is a good thing. They need to learn!

[Just_G]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

OK, I respect that.

But followed out to its logical conclusion, that leaves newer Butches who have not been around Femmes and have no idea how to act left out there with no guidance. Especially since we are all different people in different geographical locations with differing opinions of what is "good manners"

So if a Butch treats me in a way I don't like I just walk away rather than saying "hey, this is not ok for me and this is why?"

I never said Butches were a bunch of animals. I don't think that. And I think you know I don't think that :). What would you do in the original poster's case?

[Novelafemme]

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

[Apocalipstic]

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

[Scuba]

It sucks that these particular butches chose to pimp you out for amenities.


My thoughts exactly **shakes head**

[Apocalipstic]

My apologies for even suggesting some Butches might now know any better and might appreciate guidance rather than anger.

I should have said people.

I think its good to let people know how we want to be treated rather than just being angry. Usually, when we talk about it we realize that the people who supposedly wronged us did not mean to and did not fully understand our boundaries.

[Mr Nice Guy]

I would never disrespect a woman. I always treat women how I would want to be treated. With kindness, respect and honesty. Oh and niceness. :)

[LaneyDoll]

Oh and niceness. :)

You are such a nice guy ;)

:sparklyheart:

[tara_kerrie]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

[Apocalipstic]

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.



They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

[Apocalipstic]

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

Well put! Thank you. (f)

[aishah]

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

this.

i think generalizing to 'everyone needs to learn good manners' kind of ignores the fact that this way of treating femmes is rooted in male/masculine supremacy/patriarchy. i've never seen a butch be told to use their "masculine charms" or "masculine wiles" to get something.

yes, everyone needs to learn good manners, but we need to unlearn that way of relating to each other. it's not okay.

[BullDog]

So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts. ~Fire.

I agree with Snow and Aishah. I think this goes beyond having good manners and generalizing it to everyone. It is specifically about how femmes are treated at times by butches, FTMS, tran guys, other masculine types- and it's not about not opening a door or going up to get a drink for a femme.

I believe what the OP was talking about was dismissing a femme's identity.
And also as Snow says, "pimping women out."

[Toughy]

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out.

Texting to come out is what I do with friends. Never ever would I do that if I was wanting to date someone or arriving to pick up a date. If this was a date, then I would be wondering lots of things about respect and how she treats dates or lovers or partners and other folks in general.

-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken. I don't think the word lady has come out of my mouth (or fingers) in years upon years.

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. I open building doors for everyone including men if I get there first. I open car doors for femmes if we are all dressed up and going on a date.....not likely to do it if we are going to the beach or a hike (but I will come to your door and not text you to come out). I say yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir. I will give up my seat to an elder because I still have trouble remembering I am an elder....laughin....but not always anymore because I sometimes actually do need to sit for my own health reasons.

I think manners and politeness are universal and should be used by everyone. I don't know of a culture that says it's ok to push someone out of the way or knock them down to get ahead in the line. Saying excuse me if you bump someone is another polite thing. Not talking with your mouth full is universal. Burping is ok some places and not others.

Most manners are really just plain old common sense and come from a place of caring, respect and compassion. These things have nothing to do with age....they apply to all age groups.

enough blah blah blah from me

[Viola]

I want to clarify again...

message I wrote earlier, "If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess..."

Well I want to clarify...

that makes it sound like I'm saying The end: after a chess game and I didn't mean it to sound that way...

What I meant to say is, maybe the word is stages...

Kind of like playing chess with a butch is like allows me to be a friend too...

cause I really like what I read a while back in the BFP about friends before lovers...

and then if things naturally moves to lover or if not naturally move to lover...

So I wasn't giving the impression of the end, after a chess game.

I just wanted to clarify this...

It is a challenge to articulate...

I will say this, reading here in BFP has really help me so far understand and learn...










This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear could the same happen if I be around butches, would my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

[Quintease]

I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken.

I find it interesting how much distaste out there for Lady. I don't use it, yet I know many women who do, I know many gay women who use it regularly. But still it's not common in the gay scene. I went to a lesbian friendly workshop run by a friend of mine. In one of her talks she called us 'you guys' and one of her co-organisers (straight) corrected her with 'ladies'.

[Toughy]

I find it interesting how much distaste out there for Lady. I don't use it, yet I know many women who do, I know many gay women who use it regularly. But still it's not common in the gay scene. I went to a lesbian friendly workshop run by a friend of mine. In one of her talks she called us 'you guys' and one of her co-organisers (straight) corrected her with 'ladies'.


ok..............you reminded me of when I do use it.............it's when I am jokingly sarcastically calling a butch or femme friend(s) a 'gay lady' because of something they are wearing or said or did.....I know, I know, not politically correct but I am like that sometimes.....:|

(like when a b/f couple end up wearing almost identical clothes and it does happen....they be gay ladies or the ponytail sticking out of the neon orange baseball cap with matching neon orange shorts and an orange striped polo shirt...she be a gay lady)

[Apocalipstic]

LMAO Toughy! Sounds like a University of Tennessee women's basketball game. :)

I actually do say "lady" for example when I don't know someone's name...ie "the nice lady who helped my aunt".
or the "nice check out lady".

It is a Southern thing, but I probably do need to reconsider its use.

It KILLS me when I go out to eat with obvious Dykes and we get called "ladies"...especially when the wait-person is also obviously a Lesbian. lmaorof.

[BullDog]

Um... when my femme gf and I go to Lady Vols games we are both wearing orange. She likes the term lady for herself, I do not.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

[Apocalipstic]

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

Eeeek, I say all of those things. My personal fav being "Little Missy"

Men get called honey and sweetie too though. Does that help?? (f):sunglass:

Admittedly, a lot of it has to do with me going blank on people's names. lol.

[Viola]

Hi Apocalipstic,

This is true how can anyone know, however I'm wondering about a few things.

This is me analyzing ok: the word natural and the word practice.

I'm making up words in order to see if it helps me articulate.

True no one knows, however when naturally needs are met with out practicing,

About the party you were with a date and butch text you -

Let me share with you something I recently discover ok...

Space...

each of us has space. each of us has needs with in our space, either to share, or to have privacy.

Then there's abandonment, invasion, in space...

what I hear from your message is this sense of both...

I'm going to read tones ok:

The tone I'm getting from your message is this sense of abandonment with in your space and yet now your wondering if you're invasion in butch's space due to expectation with in your needs in space...

I'm learning too ok, and actually I'm learning alot from this thread...

I feel expectations when you sense a need, isn't the same of when I was writing earlier about expectations in exchange...

I see needs as more a relationship, vs when exchange even though one could see this also as needs, (you know what I think I need more range of vocabulary here...)

I sense you need from your butch and text was abandoning your need with the space you're sharing with butch.

Now yes if you communicate to butch about your need, a couple of things could happen.

Butch listens and applies however this is where tone is read.

Is it practice or natural...

However another question what is error?

or is error info about language of needs, cause to correct error how can correction be natural? so maybe need to read tone here as well...

If its practice and not natural then its not in the same language of needs...

Long term relationships: years of being together: I observe relationships around me: what ever been practice never becomes apart of but only has to be work, and its work...

Its not natural...

I'll share me: ok for example I love playing chess. so I'm an extreme visual analytical person ok...

So I could say I'm a visual analytical femme.

Now lets say (I'm making this up ok) lets say I went out with a butch who finds my visual analytical mind slow and boring, cause this part of me effects other areas such as verbal speed socail...

Now if I ask the butch to pracise allowing my slow analytical digesting each stage to practice around me to allow me space in the butch's fast environment as I can be slow and inward and quiet as I observe, and the butch was willing to practice this,, how long will this last, this practice when its probably so heavy for the butch to carry and its work then..., as well as its work for me too...

So what I'm wondering even though there's text and who knows what other kind of devises someday we will have: listening to your message to the tone, if you do make your needs known - sense the tone - if the butch is naturally or practising...

Some times we want so badly that we'll settle for practice, but how long can a relationship be working full time,

see in your situation you're on a date, then in a date is sensing natural or practice...

practise is exchange, natural is relationship.

I'm learning this too ok, about space, and the different languages there are about space.

it can happen the other way around, a butch can being doing things for a femme that doesn't even need those things, yet she might find herself practicing to need those things, that's not natural...

I saw this on line about maybe its 5 different language of love, forgiveness, and... not sure what else, but it got me thinking, if there's 5 languages and maybe even more.,

what is your language and is it the same language as to the butch your dating or is this a sign there's different language in this sign that you felt when butch text you....

if you could write the ideal butch for you what would this language look like, and if you go a step further and write the errors the butch would make, how would those errors look, for you then to communicate to to make known for natural to continue...

cause what is errors really ...

if long term relationship practice its stress,

the more natural is in a relationship the more ease relaxing and harmony.

this is me analyzing,

practice vs natural...

what is your language of love, forgiveness and... is it the same as your date? or so different that how can see and understand and if can see and understand, still can ever be natural or will it always be work...



Great post! :)

I think with each of us individually, there are ways we want and need to be treated and I think it is important to remember that not everyone will know how we expect to be treated...since it is different for each person.

There is not set way Femmes must be treated, or Butches must be treated. There is no handbook we all have, even though at times it may seem everyone else has the handbook but me.

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out. I was surprised. I am used to a Butch who comes politely to the door to pick me up....but on more reflection, I realize that I was shocked because of my own expectations of what Butch is, and how I might act if I asked out someone Femme. I can't do this, all I can control is me. I can tell someone I want them to knock on the door to pick me up or not But unless I actually tell the person what is bothering me, as it sounds like the original poster did, then if I am angry, the only person I am hurting is me.

Am I making sense?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Eeeek, I say all of those things. My personal fav being "Little Missy"

Men get called honey and sweetie too though. Does that help?? (f):sunglass:

Admittedly, a lot of it has to do with me going blank on people's names. lol.



No it doesn't help, it's enabling the shenanigans that you can cross boundaries.

I don't want to walk into a place of business and be spoken to like I'm in pre-school.

The feminist in me SCREAMS when someone dumbs me down or dismisses my wajt with a sugar or a sweetie after I've asked for something 60 x's...

[Corkey]

I use "folks", leaves the gender identifying the hell out of simple conversations and no one gets their feathers, boxers, panties, commando pants, ruffled.

[Martina]

Bears repeating


-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. . . .

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. . . .

[*Anya*]

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

I totally agree!

Unless you are my lover or my mother, do not call me honey or sweetie or any other term that intimates a level of familiarity that we do not possess!

I particularly hate it at the doctor or dentist office.

[Viola]

Hello Apocalipstic and Firedance,

Maybe I need to clarifications many times - from other message I wrote,

Please don't take my messages as facts, its only me sensing tones and growing myself...

Also I'm thinking more...

Ok, perhaps even cycling...

Firedance you wanted to be seen and approach by butches...

Apocalipstic you wanted your butch date to approach you in space you two share through connection share and not abandonment, text felt like abandonment.

Actually oh and please forgive me if I don't accurately describe your situation please use interpretation ok if needed...

Perhaps what I was sensing is language needs also dance, and is it including spirit soul in dance vs shallow...

Firedance your language is valid: you wanting to be seen and approach, and you were emotional when butches spoken their language, reversing approach.

so I didn't want to sound I was dismissing your language needs. Maybe it sounded this way as I was describing the tone of dance.

Its that some times we focus more on human worship through perfecting laws that then denies the spirit soul, and a dance can inter human worship through perfecting through shallow exchange.

so maybe I'm cycling here,

Apocalipstic please I hope not to dismiss your language of needs,

which I was sharing in another message about tones of shallow dance that dismiss spirit soul when I was responding to message in relations of butches demanding femme to approach them for once...

Actually in this tone I sense a shallow dance, not really sure if the butches were speaking of their language of needs but more speaking of being fed up...

that's another area of writing is when we're unbalance and how that effects our projection outwardly that even language of needs aren't even clear, but its more a shallow of greed a dance of shallow of blind toward pleasures empty pride follows condemnation death. or another word depart from each other, through the death of pride from the growth of condemnation...

two things I think I'm speaking about with tones, and now add third which is unbalance that effects projection that can confuse language needs even to self...

One is about dance and is it shallow or includes the spirit soul,

the other is languages and to learn your own need language and to able read other need languages so then can sense either practice or natural.

and now is the third tone: about butches wants femme to approach is that from their unbalance unclear language that they don't even know they're own language of needs that then led to their being fed up, I'm referring to message that firedance wrote and how the butches were towards her...

and or if butches wants femmes to approach them, if this is their language need then express it to a femme who wants to approach butches, I'm sure this can happen and a dance of spirit soul however in clear need language that harmoney ...

So I think what's going on is articulating more then one tones...

To clarify...

Tone one: does the dance include spirit soul or is the dance shallow?

Tone two: Femme Butch is the need language natural or a form of practice work

Tone three: how does the unbalance project their unclear language of needs that's not clear to themselves that led them to feel fed up.

[Corkey]

Elderly poll workers trippin' all over the gender markers. Unknowingly one got it right and the other, who was trying to steer the mine field back to female got it wrong. It happens, but they are old and not necessarily the ones who will ever "get it".
Just an experience from todays adventures in voting.

[Jess]

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat... :cigar2:

[~ocean]

A gents manners always seducers the fact shes being noticed as a woman.

[bright_arrow]

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

Are you saying that us Upstate New Yorkers have undesirable manners Apocalipstic? :sunglass:

[Toughy]

I have not seen anyone bash manners in this thread. I haven't even run across folks who bash manners outside this website. The opposite is what I see and hear.

No one is imposing anything on anyone except for those who use those terms in reference to someone without their permission.

[AtLast]

This is so wrong. And it makes this butch angry too.

[Viola]

I've been thinking more, actually any rules with butch femme is scaring me, cause I've never thought about this before...

All that enter my mind is drawn towards butches and that's it...

Forget rules, who cares... I'm into freedom of thought.

so I'm not going to abide by any rules, I'm just going to be me...

who cares who approach who first or second,

if I want to approach I will and or if a butch wants to approach be my guest,

I've really put a lot of thought into this, thread and still am - not sure why.

Um, I never ever been to this type of place that you describe, I've never been to a femme butch hang out offline before.

but still, I'm to the point of saying, I'm me and who cares about rules.

I'm me.

[macele]

i'm sure it can work both ways. a butch can be offensive with words, and a femme can also. a femme can ask a butch do something that has been generated from the hetero female brain.

if i seem defensive, maybe i am a little lol. :) i just don't think this is a butch problem. but rather a person problem. and i personally am not fond of looking to other people to guide me/correct me in regards to behaviour. if i am in need of someone to tell me how to act, i have person problem issues lol.

all is understood that it is needed to tell someone if they say things that are offensive. indeed. and that's what makes a good topic, ... learning.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

[Scuba]

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

Agree...

...so are saying it's not proper to pick someone up for a date on a horse? I may take issue with this. She gets good gas mileage...

[Apocalipstic]

I see I've been quoted, I am busy as heck at work but will be back in as soon as I get some stuff done. :)

Loving the discussion!

Desd, different!!! lol. Very very very different. :)

[Apocalipstic]

Agree...

...so are saying it's not proper to pick someone up for a date on a horse? I may take issue with this. She gets good gas mileage...

Maybe make sure date is not allergic to said horse. :)

[thedivahrrrself]

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat... :cigar2:

I realize the South has a lot of issues... everywhere does. And I realize that some Southern Manners are actually quite rude (eg, "Well, bless your heart"). I know that if you study history they are probably somehow rooted in oppression. If you're honest, most social graces are.

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them. So perhaps that's where the disconnect is in this conversation. Jess refers to calling women he knows Miss, not strangers on the street. Unless I'm mistaken.

[thedivahrrrself]

i'm sure it can work both ways. a butch can be offensive with words, and a femme can also. a femme can ask a butch do something that has been generated from the hetero female brain.

if i seem defensive, maybe i am a little lol. :) i just don't think this is a butch problem. but rather a person problem. and i personally am not fond of looking to other people to guide me/correct me in regards to behaviour. if i am in need of someone to tell me how to act, i have person problem issues lol.

all is understood that it is needed to tell someone if they say things that are offensive. indeed. and that's what makes a good topic, ... learning.

And you're right as well. I've been asked more times by straight males to use my cleavage to get something than by butches. But you know who the worst culprits are? Straight women. They are often oblivious to their own oppression....

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm curious where in this thread has ANYONE "bashed" manners?

I'm going to re read it again to find where people participating have done this...


ETA- consentual familiars are simply that. Consentual, "I" was referring to those who don't have that clear consent that do impose familiars on female bodied folk (figured I needed to clarify)

[princessbelle]

I realize the South has a lot of issues... everywhere does. And I realize that some Southern Manners are actually quite rude (eg, "Well, bless your heart"). I know that if you study history they are probably somehow rooted in oppression. If you're honest, most social graces are.

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them. So perhaps that's where the disconnect is in this conversation. Jess refers to calling women he knows Miss, not strangers on the street. Unless I'm mistaken.

IMO, it is logical to realize the way we are brought up in our own culture/area in many ways "shapes" how we communicate with others. Or actually, it is our base line. A base line to grow from, a base line to evolve from and hopefully always in the right directions. The South, just like all other parts of the world, have traditions of language. Manners were not born here and they are no better down here than anywhere else IMO.

My family have always used the...baby, honey, sweethearts. I did too, for awhile. Years ago, when i entered into the professional world, i realized this is not always a good way to address someone and have learned to stop using those cultural "terms of endearment". Or i should say i try. Because i do slip and if i know you and know you well, i will be more relaxed in letting those slip even more often. But, i do also realize they should not be used for all people we meet, so at least i can say, progress has been made.

Yesterday we had an electrician come over to fix some things. While on the phone with him, he said to me...."Is it Mrs. or Ms. or should i just say Missy" and he laughed. That felt really bad to me. It even felt icky. I replied back "None of the above, my name is Niki". Thankfully, he did escape me handing his balls to him on a platter by respecting the way i wanted to be addressed.

A lot of things in life we do out of habit and again it is crossed and combined with how we were raised. Hopefully, we do evolve however and it is wise, IMO, to try and grow to more of generic or universal way of language. It is a process. But, like i've said many times, change is usually a good thing.

[macele]

i used to dislike words such as honey, baby, sweetie, ect. ... even from someone that i knew intimately. but as i've gotten older, i deal with it differently. those who have formed a habit, say with the word honey, and it seems to come with every other sentence spoken, ... that's a dislike for me. and some people think the word baby will get them something they want. i've never gave more if the word baby was thrown in (well not exactly true lol). but i like to feel that comfort from someone that seems to genuinely use words to love. if a child needs attention, and a woman says, "aww sweetie, i'm sorry.", ... and she seems to genuinely care, ... i like that. i loved it as a child when momma would say bless your heart, because i knew she meant it. it wasn't said for no reason. i catch myself saying some of these words, but i say them to share comfort/understanding. i would not say if i didn't mean it. and i don't say to just anyone. i do say, but rare.

[Toughy]

<snip>

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them.

<snip>

I'm going to believe what you find endearing is manners, because you also say pet names (sugar, honey, sweetheart, etc) from folks you don't know is not acceptable. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Where is there bashing of manners in the 'Old Fashioned' thread? Reminding people that it's the 21st century is not bashing manners. I would love a post number to prove your statement. You could do it in the 'Old Fashioned' thread since we are not supposed to cross post from other threads

Where are manners being bashed in this thread? I'm serious.....please give us the post number so we can see it.

Calling people honey baby sweetie sugar pie is not about manners. It's about overstepping the boundaries of being polite and well-mannered. If you don't believe it then go look it up in Miss Manners or any other of the many books on etiquette.

[Abigail Crabby]

I know someone this happened to - and I shake my head that she didn't realize she was being disrespected so.

I tell her over and over - you don't have to *work any magic* just be yourself and never let anyone use you.

I think it's starting to sink in -

I myself hate being reduced to Honey, Sugar, Sweetie Pie, Babe.... I have a name - to reduce me to some name because you can't remember mine or you just are lazy then we don't have enough in common to stay friends.

Da Schmooze and I have consentual familiars and we enjoy them because we are partnered, but that doesn't give anyone else the right.

I'm lucky in the respect that I only got that other kind of treatment in the straight world by cis men. I didn't realize at the time it was wrong as I wasn't a feminist I was young and rather stupid lol

Again, I'm treated to Missy, Lil Lady honey etc by straight men on the phone when we are talking about their cable products. I can't countermand them and demand they call me Sunny (my chosen name) as my calls are recorded and I have to put up with it - just another day in paradise at my job lol

[JustJo]

So I have to pop in and confess that I have a terrible "hun" habit from years and years of bartending and waitressing....as in "what can I get for you hun?"

You're all giving me something to think about.....thanks. :rrose:

[Apocalipstic]

Hi Apocalipstic,

This is true how can anyone know, however I'm wondering about a few things.

This is me analyzing OK: the word natural and the word practice.

I'm making up words in order to see if it helps me articulate.

True no one knows, however when naturally needs are met with out practicing,

About the party you were with a date and butch text you -

Let me share with you something I recently discover OK...

Space...

each of us has space. each of us has needs with in our space, either to share, or to have privacy.

Then there's abandonment, invasion, in space...

what I hear from your message is this sense of both...

I'm going to read tones ok:

The tone I'm getting from your message is this sense of abandonment with in your space and yet now your wondering if you're invasion in butch's space due to expectation with in your needs in space...

I'm learning too OK, and actually I'm learning alot from this thread...

I feel expectations when you sense a need, isn't the same of when I was writing earlier about expectations in exchange...

I see needs as more a relationship, vs when exchange even though one could see this also as needs, (you know what I think I need more range of vocabulary here...)

I sense you need from your butch and text was abandoning your need with the space you're sharing with butch.

Now yes if you communicate to butch about your need, a couple of things could happen.

Butch listens and applies however this is where tone is read.

Is it practice or natural...

However another question what is error?

or is error info about language of needs, cause to correct error how can correction be natural? so maybe need to read tone here as well...

If its practice and not natural then its not in the same language of needs...

Long term relationships: years of being together: I observe relationships around me: what ever been practice never becomes apart of but only has to be work, and its work...

Its not natural...

I'll share me: OK for example I love playing chess. so I'm an extreme visual analytical person OK...

So I could say I'm a visual analytical femme.

Now lets say (I'm making this up ok) lets say I went out with a butch who finds my visual analytical mind slow and boring, cause this part of me effects other areas such as verbal speed socail...

Now if I ask the butch to practice allowing my slow analytical digesting each stage to practice around me to allow me space in the butch's fast environment as I can be slow and inward and quiet as I observe, and the butch was willing to practice this,, how long will this last, this practice when its probably so heavy for the butch to carry and its work then..., as well as its work for me too...

So what I'm wondering even though there's text and who knows what other kind of devises someday we will have: listening to your message to the tone, if you do make your needs known - sense the tone - if the butch is naturally or practising...

Some times we want so badly that we'll settle for practice, but how long can a relationship be working full time,

see in your situation you're on a date, then in a date is sensing natural or practice...

practice is exchange, natural is relationship.

I'm learning this too OK, about space, and the different languages there are about space.

it can happen the other way around, a butch can being doing things for a femme that doesn't even need those things, yet she might find herself practicing to need those things, that's not natural...

I saw this on line about maybe its 5 different language of love, forgiveness, and... not sure what else, but it got me thinking, if there's 5 languages and maybe even more.,

what is your language and is it the same language as to the butch your dating or is this a sign there's different language in this sign that you felt when butch text you....

if you could write the ideal butch for you what would this language look like, and if you go a step further and write the errors the butch would make, how would those errors look, for you then to communicate to to make known for natural to continue...

cause what is errors really ...

if long term relationship practice its stress,

the more natural is in a relationship the more ease relaxing and harmony.

this is me analyzing,

practice vs natural...

what is your language of love, forgiveness and... is it the same as your date? or so different that how can see and understand and if can see and understand, still can ever be natural or will it always be work...

This really resonated with me Sue. especially the part about relationships being stressful and how our entire existence is a language and we all speak different ones.

As a teenager I was not allowed to leave the house with a date who did not come to the door, so my expectation now is that someone will do that now too, though there is no set rule that says it will happen.

I was not really interested in the person I went to the party with anyway and was only going out because my roommate and friends said I was being lazy not dating more and that I should go. :| I was not in the right frame of mind to start with, which I am sure influenced how I felt about her manners.

No it doesn't help, it's enabling the shenanigans that you can cross boundaries.

I don't want to walk into a place of business and be spoken to like I'm in pre-school.

The feminist in me SCREAMS when someone dumbs me down or dismisses my wajt with a sugar or a sweetie after I've asked for something 60 x's...

I am fabulous at customer service (and waiting tables) and never ever use words like that to excuse poor performance. Unprofessional indeed!

I totally agree!

Unless you are my lover or my mother, do not call me honey or sweetie or any other term that intimates a level of familiarity that we do not possess!

I particularly hate it at the doctor or dentist office.

I particularly hate everything at the dentists office, but somehow find it comforting when my hygienist calls me sweetie :).

Hello Apocalipstic and Firedance,

Maybe I need to clarifications many times - from other message I wrote,

Please don't take my messages as facts, its only me sensing tones and growing myself...

Also I'm thinking more...

Ok, perhaps even cycling...

Firedance you wanted to be seen and approach by butches...

Apocalipstic you wanted your butch date to approach you in space you two share through connection share and not abandonment, text felt like abandonment.

Actually oh and please forgive me if I don't accurately describe your situation please use interpretation OK if needed...

Perhaps what I was sensing is language needs also dance, and is it including spirit soul in dance vs shallow...

Firedance your language is valid: you wanting to be seen and approach, and you were emotional when butches spoken their language, reversing approach.

so I didn't want to sound I was dismissing your language needs. Maybe it sounded this way as I was describing the tone of dance.

Its that some times we focus more on human worship through perfecting laws that then denies the spirit soul, and a dance can inter human worship through perfecting through shallow exchange.

so maybe I'm cycling here,

Apocalipstic please I hope not to dismiss your language of needs,

which I was sharing in another message about tones of shallow dance that dismiss spirit soul when I was responding to message in relations of butches demanding femme to approach them for once...

Actually in this tone I sense a shallow dance, not really sure if the butches were speaking of their language of needs but more speaking of being fed up...

that's another area of writing is when we're unbalance and how that effects our projection outwardly that even language of needs aren't even clear, but its more a shallow of greed a dance of shallow of blind toward pleasures empty pride follows condemnation death. or another word depart from each other, through the death of pride from the growth of condemnation...

two things I think I'm speaking about with tones, and now add third which is unbalance that effects projection that can confuse language needs even to self...

One is about dance and is it shallow or includes the spirit soul,

the other is languages and to learn your own need language and to able read other need languages so then can sense either practice or natural.

and now is the third tone: about butches wants femme to approach is that from their unbalance unclear language that they don't even know they're own language of needs that then led to their being fed up, I'm referring to message that firedance wrote and how the butches were toward her...

and or if butches wants femmes to approach them, if this is their language need then express it to a femme who wants to approach butches, I'm sure this can happen and a dance of spirit soul however in clear need language that harmony ...

So I think what's going on is articulating more then one tones...

To clarify...

Tone one: does the dance include spirit soul or is the dance shallow?

Tone two: Femme Butch is the need language natural or a form of practice work

Tone three: how does the unbalance project their unclear language of needs that's not clear to themselves that led them to feel fed up.

I want more than anything for the dance to include spirit and soul! I love how you put that.

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat... :cigar2:

I have always been called Miss and my last name, even whe I was little. I am used to it. I also have no problem with being called a "lady", though I am not one really unless I need to be. lol.

Maybe it is our Food and Beverage background?


Are you saying that us Upstate New Yorkers have undesirable manners Apocalipstic? :sunglass:

Just wayyyy different expectations of what is and is not good manners and how to communicate. What I think is rude is wayy different than in other parts of the country and I always try to keep Cultural differences in mind when engaging in conversation within people from other places...even inside the US. :) :rrose:

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT OK to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

OMG, I like Little Missy, but for some reason Little Lady irks me.

Really, honestly...and I've thought about this a lot...it mostly irks me if a man calls me one of those names, but not always. It depends on who it is and context.


Whewwwwww!

[weatherboi]

i watched one of my cooks try and get a server to show him some cleavage before he would put her food in the window for her. Of, course she didn't, she was appalled. Even grosser he was married with kids. I fired him along with two other line cooks that were involved in onlooking. Yuck right!!!

For me, manners are global not regional so using familiars in any situation is not always popular or sensitive. Most people i attended college with were from different countries and some things were ok and some were not.

i have seen gay men objectify women they were with this way. i have seen a woman send her girlfriend to get them free drinks when i was at a festival. This seemed to be consented to by the girlfriend but i did not know them. i know it happens probably a lot in the LGBTIQ community.

[ruffryder]

Firedance you should pick a bone with those butches or whoever else that does that to you and you have every right!

People who do what you mentioned need to learn some respect for femmes and females in general.

You are right about the dance and having each others back. If you are going to have a butches back and stand up for them and be there for them they should do the same for you and not add to the damn shambles of hate and not treating a woman right. There are butches and others (male and female) of all ages that would never do this. To those you encounter that do, put them in their place!

I like this idea by JAGG:

... if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself...