Negotiating Silence

[SuperFemme]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[Pixie]

Hmmmm.....

I think it depends.

For me sometimes I would rather not have the "spotlight" or focus on me.

and other times

I feel too strongly about my opinion I don't want to handle myself wrong.

:praying:

[atomiczombie]

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme. :)

[Pixie]

I feel invisible when there are assumptions. When your words are read but not comprehended and not really given a comfortable stepping stone in explaining. I feel invisible when a different perception is insufficient and misunderstood. Although... I resonate glitter so I don't like to disappear much lol.

[SuperFemme]

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Blanket statements and generalizations suck. One person cannot speak for the masses. I cringe when I see them, and often address them gently.

As for not being invited to conversations? I can dissect it. I believe it is not only ok but absolutely necessary to carve out safe spaces in our community where sub-groups can discuss. Usually these spaces are not exclusionary, but ask participants not in the sub-group to refrain from speaking the truth of the sub-group. That doesn't mean others cannot participate, it means they are being asked to speak their truth. Not the truth the believe to be somebody elses. It's kind of like a backwards blanket statement.

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?

[Just_G]

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme. :)

AZ, you hit the nail on the head here....I don't like being lumped into a certain group because of how I id. I don't like the idea of having to say "that's not fair", because it sounds so third gradish, so I say nothing at all. I remain invisible.

I am also not so great with words when trying to say what is in my head sometimes and feel like I am not explaining myself all that well. Some of the discussions can get pretty deep, and sometimes language is used that I don't fully understand or comprehend. (I am a smart guy, so I am not saying this to put myself down, I just know my reading comprehension skills and vocabulary is not what some people's are). It can be very frustrating.

I am glad you started this thread Superfemme!

[Pixie]

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?


I hear you about the coming out over and over again.

I have had to stay silenced about myself due to job restrictions before. For the comfort of others, which sucks.

Yes sometimes I choose to be silent for prevention, but there are other times its been an instance where I was in the middle and a "so there", "you're wrong period", "done with you" emphasis was left on the end...and the ringing silence was all that was possible. If that makes sense.

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;18538]"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel this (above) goes along with the idea that no one can make you feel bad unless you let them. So logic would deem that no one can make me feel good unless I let them. Why is it when people do things that make us feel good, it is ok to feel good? But not when people are mean to us?


I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

Perhaps so many are silenced so often and in so many ways. Anything that comes close to past experience, hits to close to home

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

This is wonderful. It would be, I would think, easier to post from the privacy of ones own home, rather than a face to face discussion. I have to say, that about 98% of the time, when I read that a post is being reported, or if someone is being called out by others, I have to reread. I don't tend to paint others with a negative brush. I tend to function from the premise that others are also engaging in a positive way and not trying to be mean. But then I do not see what goes on off the treads in pm etc. I have to wonder how much "silencing" is going on behind the scenes?


What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I don't feel silenced on line. I often choose to not engage due to the negativity. When people start pulling things apart, turning it into nitpicking, thinking their point is right rather than their point.
There has been debate other places about saying : I don;t see color" I completely understood the logic. But I was floored, struck dumb actually, on Sat when my new African Amercian co worker stated: I do not see color.
I was SHOCKED. We had a good discussion. The point here is, when we speak, we may speak for our selves, even most of a group. But we are not speaking for everyone. I think when you insist you are right, that can be silencing to others.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?


You asked LOL
1) understand that not everyone has the same ability to put their thoughts into words. (and this has 0 to do with intelligence) So be gentle and understanding. Ask questions.

2) realize that others have different views and that not everyone will agree with you.

3) Understand that each human has hundreds and hundreds of character traits. It is not possible to find someone who will agree with you on everything.

4) the more we divide ourselves, the more we hurt each other.

5) spend more time focused on what we have in common rather than what makes us different.

6) start realizing most people are good decent folks doing the best they can in life.

7) realize some folks need a cause, a battle, a challenge, a debate

8) make an effort to take people seriously, believe people when they say they are not trying to be negative
(cause ya know, no matter what the words say, when we read we add the tone, snark etc.)

9) when folks say: I am not trying to be "whatever" and people come back and say yes you are, it can really be fustrating, which can lead to people snapping.






I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

funny I wish more people would be silent, but they rarely tell me to be silent.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[T D]

What I've noticed about these silencing threads is that when one person doesn't like or perhaps even really understand what another persons outlook, perception, view point, history, on and on and on, is they often times come back with a silencing statement, generally about how the other persons post is of no help, pertinent to the subject, or whatever form of silencing they choose to use. It always amazes me that this goes on over and over and over like they're not silencing people with these types of statements. I believe that people often times use them as a means to attack others with hidden agendas. As a rule I try to stay away from them for the most part now because of this very reason.

Just my take on it, and my 2 cents worth at the moment :)

[Gemme]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.


Eleanor was absolutely correct. By allowing someone's words or actions to take control of me (versus me being in control of my responses), I am giving them power. I am allowing them to dictate my responses. That doesn't mean that whatever it was that they said or did wasn't shitty, because it most likely was, but it means that I just loaded up a silver platter with bits and pieces of myself and said, "Help yourself!"

There have been many times that I have felt silenced over the years (on the internet, specifically, as there are many more reasons in real time). Sometimes, I find myself in discussions that are, honestly, way above my head. And my not being able to grasp all the parts of the conversation frustrates me and I feel as if anything I may say won't be valuable, so I don't speak up. I feel invalidated, though no one may have said that at all or even considered that I might be interested in the conversation.

Sometimes, someone says something that is very generalized or just plain stupid and ignorant and I get so riled up and angry that I have to step away from the computer. I silence myself so that "I" don't become the jackass spewing stupidity everywhere. That works....when I am able to pull myself away. Fortunately, that happens more often than not.

There are times that I feel I would be beating my head into a brick wall....that there is no way in Hell that this person will ever see anyone else's point of view...and that, for me to engage with them would be a giant waste of my time and energy. I feel that I silence myself as well as 'being' silenced by this person, as if their ignorance is suffocating me and my thoughts and words. It sounds very close to what I previously described but is slightly...and significantly...different to me.

Once in a while, I will read something and be incredibly hurt by the statements made by others, whether the person was speaking directly to me or not. You know that feeling before you cry, when you can feel the pressure of the tears building up behind your eyes and your chest feels tight and you have difficulty controlling your breathing? Yeah, I feel that. I hate that out of control feeling. I have a knee jerk reaction to that feeling. I strike out or I pull inside of myself. When my response is the latter, I feel silenced. Of course, I have ultimate control over my emotions and responses to my feelings and emotions, but when it's a knee jerk response....instinctive, really....I feel as if the control has been taken from me.

[atomiczombie]

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.

I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

[NJFemmie]

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

[Andrew, Jr.]

For me, and me alone, I feel like this...my words may not come out right or I use the wrong word to express what it is I want too. I am not one that is good with oral expression-communication. Just how it is. Instead of me constantly asking others to restate it another way, I just leave. My words or phrases or sentences are taken out of context or the words I use are misconstrued to mean one thing, when in reality they were meant to mean something totally different. For me it is like this :deadhorse: or this :danglecarrot:. Life for me is like :titantic:. I really thought online would be different in a community like this. I am silenced, day in and day out. It is very frustrating. I wish just an ounce of what is inside of me would come to light. Just once. But I know it won't ever happen. That is my reality. I will never have a high corporate job, or be a corporate hot shot. I am not ever going to have that ability. I have to learn to live with what I have been given.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

[SuperFemme]

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?
You asked LOL
1) understand that not everyone has the same ability to put their thoughts into words. (and this has 0 to do with intelligence) So be gentle and understanding. Ask questions.

Yes! Then when they answer REALLY hear them rather than become irritated if it is an opposing viewpoint.

2) realize that others have different views and that not everyone will agree with you.

Disagreeing may be an art form. I find things spin out of control when someone tried to make their truth everyone elses truth.

3) Understand that each human has hundreds and hundreds of character traits. It is not possible to find someone who will agree with you on everything.

We've all walked different miles. Great point!

4) the more we divide ourselves, the more we hurt each other.

We hurt ourselves in the process.

5) spend more time focused on what we have in common rather than what makes us different.

I'd like to add that celebrating our differences is a wonderful thing in a community as diverse as ours.

6) start realizing most people are good decent folks doing the best they can in life.

More support/less judgment. Great idea.

7) realize some folks need a cause, a battle, a challenge, a debate

I think all of the above are great things, not bad things. With the exception of battles. When we have causes we are passionate about them. When we challenge others and ourselves we grow. When we debate we grow. When me battle dissenting opinions that is not necessarily a bad thing, I think it depends situationally.

8) make an effort to take people seriously, believe people when they say they are not trying to be negative
(cause ya know, no matter what the words say, when we read we add the tone, snark etc.)

Tone is hard in an online format. I have to work hard to post nice sometimes because even though I am not being snarky intentionally it could be perceived that way. Preview before hitting send. Discuss with friends to get their read on it before posting.

9) when folks say: I am not trying to be "whatever" and people come back and say yes you are, it can really be fustrating, which can lead to people snapping.

Yes. I get that feeling Gemme mentioned when this happens.




gratuitous smiles so this will post. :penguin:

[Linus]

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?


This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. :cheesy: **

[SuperFemme]

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?

[Lynn]

A lot of good stuff has been said already.

What silences me is sarcasm and joking in the middle of a real discussion, where people are sharing honestly, the best they can. Also, self-rightgeous indignation, where, based on one comment, or even a nuance, someone feels they can just jump all over another poster for being WRONG. I would not be inclined to get into the middle of a thread with either of those conditions.

On line is a weird thing to me. I can't see your face, but if I think you're laughing at me or not taking me seriously, then I don't want to play. If you are going to jump on me and judge me before really hearing what I have to say, then I'll tend to shut up. That's my issue, but I'm not apt to persist in those cases. I like to think about things, and be heard when I think something is important, but not enough to step into a river of crocodiles.

On line communities have different characteristics, I think. But, they're all made up of people. I think it's unrealistic to think that any group is going to develop flawlessly, without work and commitment.

For me, it is not silencing to ask that the tone of a thread be respected so that the individuals to whom the thread pertains can interact. I read and hold opinions about lots of topics, but you will see me participating with great caution in a thread that does not have to do with me, personally. I find that to be respectful, and asking the same of others in the threads about me does not seem silencing. It's respecting the diversity of the community.

[SuperFemme]

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.



I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.
[FONT=Century Gothic]


This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. :cheesy: **

Great points Linus! You bring up something that just made a light bulb go off for me. People criticizing writing styles and spelling/grammar usage.

I have seen this many times and it just seems mean spirited to tell another poster they are being skipped over because they write too much or can't spell. It is painful to read those kinds of exchanges.

Basic human kindness tells me that even *if* one is skipping over posts or doesn't find them easy to read it doesn't need to be said in public. For goodness sake! I see the ways we shame each other and I can't stand it. Shame = Silence = Alienation.

[Apocalipstic]

Great subject SuperFemme! :)

I see many times when because of cultural, geographic or differences in communication styles and plain old reading comprehension people get in a frenzy and report posts that were not meant to be offensive, and in fact, if read in the right tone were not offensive at all. Not so much on this website, but I have seen it a couple of times here.

I think it is important that rather than assuming the worst, we try and look at the whys and the what really was said.

Of course, at the point we are misunderstood, we can choose to feel silenced, or we can explain and apologize. For me, navigating these threads does involve a good bit of apologizing and trying to see things from different standpoints.

Atomic, I completely get and hear what you are saying. There is so much pain and anger around how Butches identify and where the Trans community fits in. My belief is that individual people who have or have had very small views of the world say hurtful things and it gets blown up to affect the entire community at large. I admit I am guilty of wanting there to be a place for woman identified Butches, because when my G/F joined B-F and met people in person she was told she was not allowed to be called she and that her name would have to be changed to Sydney or Chris. She chose to remove herself from the issue and stay off the threads which makes me pretty sad. For me, I do think there need to be places where different groups can discuss their own issues...I am particularly enjoying the Femme threads for example.

On the other hand,
When we are together, who cares about ID's unless we are trying to date. :) I wish we could get to that point on line.

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

[SuperFemme]

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

[Apocalipstic]

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..


I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

Absolutely they are intertwined! I keep seeing discussion head down an either/or road. Either you see it my way Or you are just wrong. Either/Or never ends well.

You cannot be the teacher without being the student.

[NJFemmie]

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?


I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

[Linus]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

[Andrew, Jr.]

Linus,

I can only focus on 1 thing at a time. I can't focus or multi-task on 10 different things. It may seem to others like I may be ignoring them, but I'm not. I just am not able to do it the way others are. That is why I rely on other folks like yourself and Jack to help me to understand.

Andrew

[Apocalipstic]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

Yes yes, or if we agree with a post, but do not comment on each an every word of everypost, or respond fast enough...are we in fact ignoring the post and silencing the poster?

[Lynn]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

[Linus]

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion :watereyes: ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

[Apocalipstic]

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.



I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion :watereyes: ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

Yes, the "thanks" button is great in many regards! :)

[apretty]

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

[SuperFemme]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

[Words]

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm;)

Words

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[amiyesiam]

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.


I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Agreed!
I have found that people are people. Dumb and stupid to not belong to any one group. Character traits exist across all groups. I have found on threads that are "only _______" space others enter at will. MY all time fav was a newly created butch space that some femmes tried to paint pink.

Quote: Again, some transguys(lesbians, butches, femmes, women, men, children, grownups, governments, straights, poor people, rich people, right wing people, left wing people) may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Life is just so much easier when you base your opinions about someone on the content of their character rather than how they id, their race, religion etc. Of course this requires more work.

[Lynn]

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

No apologies necessary to me. I do find it odd when there is a response that isn't really pertinent to the post or discussion. It feels like the response is not based on an attempt to understand, but just a platform for the responder to air their views. It can range from annoying to appearing to be callous, depending on the situation. But, really, it may just be that the post wasn't completely understood by the responder. I know that sometimes people honestly believe they understand, when they don't.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion :watereyes: ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

I like the thanks button, too. Thanks for having it! :)

[Linus]

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

Heh.. no. It's because I didn't respond to all your points in the OP and also didn't address others completely either. Hence, the irony. I think, however, you've done a great job at trying to answer and address points as they come into play. Which, IMO, everyone feel like they have a part in this, are valued for their opinion and are not silenced.

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Totally understand and completely get. This is much like me not understanding what it's like to live with being differently abled and others not being aware of the challenges that are added on with that, especially one that doesn't necessarily appear obvious.

Please be assured it wasn't directed at you but rather something that I remember from a previous discussion on a similar topic on an online game (since the premise of the game involved online discussion and politics, silencing was a common activity although it wasn't called silencing) and I've seen elsewhere online. One of the things I've noticed is that when this is done, sometimes two people -- both who have the same view but present it differently -- ended up arguing against each other over the smallest point (e.g., honor vs honour).

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.


Always a good thing.

[SuperFemme]

Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.

[Diva]

Great thread, SF....it brings out some provocative thinking to be sure....

I don't often feel silenced. I understand, Words, what You are saying by the academic verbiage.....sometimes, it gets to be too much for me personally. But I don't feel silenced just because a poster might use a few bigger/more complicated/lofty words. I just have my dictionary close~by. A week doesn't go by that I don't learn a few new words! I may not have a clue what they meant, but by God, I've got a new WORD! :D

Now when I'm looking up every other word, I just go 'what is the point'? lol I may not SAY anything, but I don't feel silenced. I think that would be on me if I felt that way. You can't dismiss or silence me unless I give You persmission.

Someone mentioned the 'addressing every single post' or 'every point in a post'....and if someone ~ say someone whose comments we respect and admire ~ doesn't address it, doesn't mean they are trying to silence someone else. Maybe they didn't see it. Maybe it didn't speak to them at the moment they read it. And if we DID address each point, we'd wear out that "Multiple Quote Feature"!!!

This is a crazy deal, this on~line discussion stuff. It's hard to read tone, unless You might know the one posting and can hear their inflection. We don't always have that luxury.

I hope that made sense......thanks again, SF.....

[SuperFemme]

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.

[SuperFemme]

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).


Ding! Ding! Ding! You are in my head. I see the word silencing being used a lot. I am still trying to understand if Silencing is indeed a two party act a lot of the time.

[Arwen]

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.


I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. :) I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.

[Apocalipstic]

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. :) I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.


:), on the other hand, some people would way rather you (not you personally, the collective you) talked behind their backs than to their faces....In my part of the country it is not polite to say things to pople's faces and it freaks us out when someone does.

It really is difficult sometimes with all our cultural differences for us to communicate at all. Its a miracle that we do as well as we do.

:)

[amiyesiam]

I love the thank you button. It lets people know you like what they posted. It takes time to respond to posts.

Next when someone says they are differently abled and people are rude, etc to them it is wrong. Perhaps because I have worked with differently abled people for over 15 years I have strong feelings about this.

Sometimes some people don't spend enough time letting people know they are liked, appreciated, respected, etc.

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;18730]Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.
I have really strong opinions about the above. I don't do this period. And I can shut someone who tries to do it to me down in a heart beat.
send me something unpleasant about someone else and you will get back a well worded and well thought out response tailored to your pm. It will cover, point by point (all logic no emotion) why your pm is not acceptable and please don't do it to me again.
If you shut a gossip down from the beginning, most learn not to bother to come to you with negativity.
Another point on gossip: We tend to call other peoples gossip drama. When it is our drama/gossip we call it venting about our life, sticking up for our selves etc.
really would you want others to say about you, what you say about others?

[christie]

Great thread idea!

For me, I chose to be silent quite a bit of the time because I see a lot of "interpretation" of others' words. A great deal of reading between the lines and putting a personal spin on them; rather than taking the words at face value.

I'm a say what I mean and mean what I say kinda woman. My words have often been interpreted incorrectly, and in as such, their meaning/intent completely disregarded.

I also think that when we try to be more concrete in our words, citing personal experiences/situations, those words are often used as "ammunition" against us. I have seen people post real issues... making themselves very vulnerable... and instead of the responders being supportive and uplifting, the OP has been raked over the proverbial coals and judged.

What can we do to change the issues I see? Its pretty simple to me... stop interpreting and be more open minded that not all our journeys are alike. Learn to agree to disagree, respectfully. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Stop reading more into things than what is stated. Try to put ourselves in another's shoes and that whole "Do unto others."

Just my nickel's worth... That and $6 will get you a latte.

Christie

[SuperFemme]

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. :) I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.

I think gossip is inherently mean spirited. I also think that certain people are just a recipe for disaster when they bring out the worst in others.

I think one of the most healing moments for me was when you apologized to me. So please stop now, I forgive you. Your apology was a gift because it validated the months of crazy making. It was brave of you to do so and I am eternally grateful.

Interestingly, I chose to not engage and silenced myself during that time period. My health could not take the toxic nature of thinking about it. Yet the silence imposed was deafening.

There was not necessarily a power imbalance but at times it was perceived by me to be one. I had to do the work around that.

It's not unimportant that we live in a world where boundaries are being blurred about privacy and a demand to know is pervasive. Take the Tiger Woods incident. How dare he not make a statement! I want to vomit everytime I hear about it.

[Arwen]

:), on the other hand, some people would way rather you (not you personally, the collective you) talked behind their backs than to their faces....In my part of the country it is not polite to say things to pople's faces and it freaks us out when someone does.

It really is difficult sometimes with all our cultural differences for us to communicate at all. Its a miracle that we do as well as we do.

:)

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. :) I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal :soapbox: soapbox on something I do that I detest.

[Apocalipstic]

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. :) I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal :soapbox: soapbox on something I do that I detest.


I totally hear what you are saying, I am also working to practice kindness :).

I will say that if someone does not like something about me, I would WAY rather them say it behind my back. I could care less if someone hates my dress. ;)

I agree that it would be best if we did focus on the good in people and trying to see why they tick as they do. I think that sometimes we can be overly confrontational just so we can feel like we are speaking our truth. I think we need to look at what is to be gained by hurting the person, and I don't think us feeling better about ourselves is always a good reason.

I further think (and this is not something I have ever seen you ((Arwen)) do, just jumping off of the subject) that we need to be careful about making fun of people we do not agree with. Just becasue we might do it to their face and feel authentic in doing so is not a good reason.

Does that make sense?

[NJFemmie]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

I did have a nicely worded post for this and then I lost my internet connection ... basically ...

Some people in here have already nailed a part of this on the head - I think a lot of this so-called "dismissiveness" is based on the LOOK AT ME complex.

I admit that I don't answer EVERY single post in a thread - I don't find it particularly necessary - especially if others have already typed out what I was thinking on the matter. If I don't have anything to add to it - I won't. I have posted tons of stuff in my day without so much as an acknowledgment, and quite frankly, I can't take it personally. (Did I feel dismissed? perhaps - it depended on my mood that day...) Whether I was blatantly ignored, or perhaps they felt my comments were of no importance or use - is subjective (or would that be relative ...?) anyway, so ... I moved on.

Then, you have some posters who are ALL OVER THE PLACE with their rant - and frankly, I may just pull the pertinent information and comment on what I felt was the subject matter.

Words also stated it quite nicely - some use language/verbiage that makes my head want to explode. I have the occasional bout of ADD - I can't be bothered, sorry. I prefer the easy read - I am getting too old to play decipher this post, lol.

So - yes, I suppose it's a tricky matter ... but I think a lot of it is based on attention. Online forums are not the same as a face to face conversation, and that has to be the given. You cannot expect the same results and/or attention.

[theoddz]

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. :) I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal :soapbox: soapbox on something I do that I detest.


eh ehehehe....and in Southern culture, all mean-spiritedness is negated/mitigated by those three little magical words, "Bless her/his heart". :lol2:

Couldn't resist that......bless my heart. :winky::byebye:

~Theo~ :bunchflowers:

[Arwen]

I further think (and this is not something I have ever seen you ((Arwen)) do, just jumping off of the subject) that we need to be careful about making fun of people we do not agree with. Just becasue we might do it to their face and feel authentic in doing so is not a good reason.

Does that make sense?

I am snipping your post for space rather than ignoring any of it. I think I have a personal issue with confrontation. :) I want to talk things out. I want to find out WHY someone feels a need to bitch about me behind my back. I will GO to the person I am told is talking about me. I want to have a conversation and maybe some resolution, you know?

However, I am slowly coming to realize that that is ME wanting others to toe my party line. And if I am not willing to toe theirs, how can I demand they toe mine? Right?

The idea of ridicule as a silencer is important to me. Again, something I've done. I'm working on the idea of mirror a lot so I am focusing on me-me-me for many of my discussions.

Ridicule is scarily close to teasing. I tease a lot. I've crossed the line and been called on it (thank you to those who were kind/brave/honest enough to have a discussion with me about it). I am really working on the kindness thing myself. Some see it as artificial. I know my "seek joy, y'all" has been met with laughter. It's all good. I don't need to have my personal journey match anyone else's.

But when I find others who gossip and ridicule me, then I find that I do not need them in my life. Life is hard enough without having to deal with people who choose that particular path. And, smile, it's just another path. I just don't want to walk it, that's all.

I think sometimes folks see my statements as peripheral put-downs. Not so. If anything, they are reminders to myself of what I can and can not tolerate in my own life from myself. Again, learning that I can only control me is an interesting lesson.

So I find gossip silencing and you, Apoca, may find it liberating because you don't have to hear it about yourself. I think it is others trying to get me to fit their world and you see it as unimportant in your world. I like the way you see it. Maybe I can wrestle my poor self-esteem around to seeing it your way. :)

Did I state how you see it correctly? I don't mean to diminish your voice.

[Apocalipstic]

I am snipping your post for space rather than ignoring any of it. I think I have a personal issue with confrontation. :) I want to talk things out. I want to find out WHY someone feels a need to bitch about me behind my back. I will GO to the person I am told is talking about me. I want to have a conversation and maybe some resolution, you know?

However, I am slowly coming to realize that that is ME wanting others to toe my party line. And if I am not willing to toe theirs, how can I demand they toe mine? Right?

The idea of ridicule as a silencer is important to me. Again, something I've done. I'm working on the idea of mirror a lot so I am focusing on me-me-me for many of my discussions.

Ridicule is scarily close to teasing. I tease a lot. I've crossed the line and been called on it (thank you to those who were kind/brave/honest enough to have a discussion with me about it). I am really working on the kindness thing myself. Some see it as artificial. I know my "seek joy, y'all" has been met with laughter. It's all good. I don't need to have my personal journey match anyone else's.

But when I find others who gossip and ridicule me, then I find that I do not need them in my life. Life is hard enough without having to deal with people who choose that particular path. And, smile, it's just another path. I just don't want to walk it, that's all.

I think sometimes folks see my statements as peripheral put-downs. Not so. If anything, they are reminders to myself of what I can and can not tolerate in my own life from myself. Again, learning that I can only control me is an interesting lesson.

So I find gossip silencing and you, Apoca, may find it liberating because you don't have to hear it about yourself. I think it is others trying to get me to fit their world and you see it as unimportant in your world. I like the way you see it. Maybe I can wrestle my poor self-esteem around to seeing it your way. :)

Did I state how you see it correctly? I don't mean to diminish your voice.


I used to want everyone to like me, but (and maybe its my antidepressants :)) I just choose not to care any more. I have plenty of friends who do like me, to the point I end up having to neglect them due to time constraints.

I also am not very confrontational and I hate hate hate being told what to do, so yeah, not having to hear what people think of my kitchen counters or whatever is liberating. (except my G/F and in-laws are Northern so I still get told what to do A LOT.)

Teasing I often do not get (understand). I have been made fun of my entire life for not being able to get jokes, not liking to be jumped out at, dunked in the pool, etc. Ridiculing just seems mean and I am trying to eradicate mean from my life. Hopefully I can find ways to be funny that are not at anyone else's expense.

I really like "see joy y'all" and hope its OK if I use it.

I like what you say about our only being able to control ourselves. Your analogy of only being able to control what is inside our own hula hoop is something I try to keep in mind.

This is a great discussion and it helps to better understand that often your posts are about you and not how you think others should act. This makes sense and I will keep it in mind. Thank you so much for discussing!

[T D]

Silencing = Using someones personal stories, shares as ammunition to be used as a means of belittling and thereby silencing them. Using gossip, falsehoods, negativity to describe someone and put a negative spin on their character. Telling others that what they say/said isn't pertinent to the topic or bascially doesn't belong in the thread. Trying to convince everyone reading the thread that you are the smartest, most informed, and you must be believed because of this. That if you ID as some certain way, then you must be like all the others who ID that way. Like someone else said earlier, not every butch, transguy, or anyone else are misogynistic pigs, nor do they all think that a "femme is not a femme without a butch", something I'd never even seen or heard about until this site. Interestingly enough some people would certainly color us all as being the same.

It goes on and on and on, the ways this can and does happen are endless. I absolutely do NOT think this is something that we just perceive in our heads, I think it actually happens, often times intentionally, and is quite often directed at specific participants. I've been watching these types of threads for years and years, and they generally end up the same way with the same people doing and saying the same stuff in the same manner.

What this boils down to for me is RESPECT or lack of it. If each person here looked at the other as a person of REAL value I believe they'd have respect for that person. What I often times see instead is someone who has a "need" to somehow prove that they're the smartest, the most informed, the brightest star on the block, and quite frankly it's these very people who make me wonder why they "need" this so much. It just leads me to believe that they're insecure themselves, and need to obtain their security by collecting followers from around them and giving themselves an appearance of superiority.

Again, I'm just saying that respect and/or lack of it is at the bottom of all this for me. I find it very difficult to respect people who don't respect others, or at the very least speak as if they do when responding to other peoples thoughts, views, feelings, experiences, etc.

You know, I've been wanting to say this for a very long time. I've been watching it go on for SOOO long now. I may get a bunch of backlash from having said these things, but bottom line for me is, if you don't give respect you're not going to get much of it back, and if you try to be the smartest kid on the block, it doesn't ensure that you are.

It would be really nice to see people open up more, to be more caring about others here, to be more open to understanding, to be more open to the fact that not everyone in a particular category is the same as the person standing beside them, that each of us has a different way of communicating, that we're all different and we ALL perceive the world differently, and that we're all speaking from OUR perceived worlds!

Stepping down now.

[SuperFemme]

TD, I appreciate your post a lot. I'm glad you felt okay about posting here what you have long wanted to say.

Respect is key, you are right. I hope I haven't intimated that we are just perceiving this in our heads.

I'm wanting to know what we do with it when it happens. I'm hoping we can be the change.

I want to learn. :loveletter:

[NJFemmie]

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you aren't being heard - it just means you aren't being agreed with. If someone makes that equation, then they (the collective) have other issues to address. IMO it means that unless you AGREE to what they are saying, you are obviously dismissing it, or "not hearing them". Perhaps it's a case of THEM dismissing the fact that you simply don't agree. Now who is dismissing who?

[Bit]

This is a great discussion and it helps to better understand that often your posts are about you....

I personally think this point can never be emphasized enough. It's not just Arwen, although that's who Jen was answering---it's US, all of us.

Our posts are ALWAYS about us. It doesn't matter what the subject is or to whom we're speaking; every post we make is a part of us--after all, it came from our minds, right?--and reflects our experiences, our worldview, our own emotional state.

For example, if I post a long rant aimed at XYZ because they said something which really pissed me off, when YOU read it, you aren't really reading anything at all about XYZ (even if you agree with my rant, lol)---what you're reading is actually about Cath, because it came from me.

Depending on the subject of the rant, you're reading maybe the results of the way I was treated in childhood, or maybe the results of an abusive marriage, or maybe the results *yanno I rant the most about the way Butches are treated in public* of my feeling helpless/embarrassed/humiliated/ANGRY/helpless/helpless/helpless when my first partner was humiliated by women in a public restroom who very snidely and loudly pretended in front of a large crowd that they couldn't tell she was a woman because she was wrapped in a man's coat to stay warm in her wheelchair.

Does my example make sense to y'all? I might say someone is acting in a misogynistic way, or a callous way, or any other way, and I might be right----but in the end, my post is actually about how their post ties into other things which have happened to me in the past, things which I might not ever speak about but which surely influence what I say anyway.

This is a natural human trait and I think it's the main reason that we (people who post) so often take someone else's post as if it were ridicule or disrespect. I think this tendency of ours to read everything through a strong filter of our own past experiences is one of the things that leads people to react with such strong emotion to other people's posts.

And to answer Adele's question *cuz I know it's coming! :cheesy:* I think what we can do to change is simply to acknowledge it. If we make it a point to remember that other people's posts are all about them and what has happened in their lives, and if we remember that our responses (especially our anger) come from what happened to us in our own lives, then I think maybe we'll be more inclined to cut each other some slack.

Your Mileage May Vary on this... and that's okay. *smiling*

Also, I never feel like someone answering just one point from another person's post is a form of silencing. I agree with TD's definition of silencing.

[Apocalipstic]

Great post Bit! Yes its true, how we react to things is completely because of our life experiences. We all need to remember that.

And to women who see themselves as bathroom monitors.......:furious:
Cynthia uses the Men's room, apparently Men don't look at each other in the bathroom like women do.

[SuperFemme]

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you aren't being heard - it just means you aren't being agreed with. If someone makes that equation, then they (the collective) have other issues to address. IMO it means that unless you AGREE to what they are saying, you are obviously dismissing it, or "not hearing them". Perhaps it's a case of THEM dismissing the fact that you simply don't agree. Now who is dismissing who?

Yes, this is exactly my point! The person who is not agreed with does not feel heard because nobody is coming around to their viewpoint. I wonder if this happens?

[Lynn]

The notion that people are deliberately dismissive or silencing because they use big words or complex phrases is kind of...dismissive...to me. Not that I take this personally, because I don't. I don't think I have posted enough to be noticed that much. If anyone is talking about me, I sure don't know about it.

I have always been a quiet person. One that a lot of people made fun of, when I was younger. I tended to read a lot, liked to try to get good grades, and I wasn't mean. I was shy and insecure.Therefore, I wasn't cool. People said I was conceited and said that I thought I was better than them. I couldn't believe that, because I didn't think I was good enough for anything.

In school, and now, I tend to use big words. Why? I don't know. It comes naturally. I know what they mean and sometimes they fit best. By the same token, sometimes I have complicated thoughts about something and I work really hard to say things in just the right way. I don't try to outsmart anyone, nor do I get involved in the "outwitting" contests that I sometimes see. Not because I find them silencing (unless they're derailing a thread, then it sucks). More because I'm shy, and don't want to appear stupid.

There are times when the discussion gets too esoteric for me. For the most part, though, I don't assume that just because I can't understand someone, that they're trying to shut me out of a discussion. I feel it's as much my responsibility to try to understand someone as it is their's to make themselve's understood.

I just wanted to add a couple of other things...

I agree that it's about respect. Respect for individuals. And kindness. If we would always give each other the benefit of the doubt, we could communicate much better. I have seen threads deteriorate when something is misperceived, or even if a less popular opinion is voiced. There have been times, though, when I read no disrespect at all, but it was perceived that way by someone else.

[SuperFemme]

The notion that people are deliberately dismissive or silencing because they use big words or complex phrases is kind of...dismissive...to me. Not that I take this personally, because I don't. I don't think I have posted enough to be noticed that much. If anyone is talking about me, I sure don't know about it.

I have always been a quiet person. One that a lot of people made fun of, when I was younger. I tended to read a lot, liked to try to get good grades, and I wasn't mean. I was shy and insecure.Therefore, I wasn't cool. People said I was conceited and said that I thought I was better than them. I couldn't believe that, because I didn't think I was good enough for anything.

In school, and now, I tend to use big words. Why? I don't know. It comes naturally. I know what they mean and sometimes they fit best. By the same token, sometimes I have complicated thoughts about something and I work really hard to say things in just the right way. I don't try to outsmart anyone, nor do I get involved in the "outwitting" contests that I sometimes see. Not because I find them silencing (unless they're derailing a thread, then it sucks). More because I'm shy, and don't want to appear stupid.

There are times when the discussion gets too esoteric for me. For the most part, though, I don't assume that just because I can't understand someone, that they're trying to shut me out of a discussion. I feel it's as much my responsibility to try to understand someone as it is their's to make themselve's understood.

I read it as MOST people who use big ole edumacational words are fine. Fabulous even. There are a select few that will wield these words as a weapon and use them to talk *down* to somebody else. I haven't seen it happen here. So I don't really think it was meant as a blanket statement, but more of a specific one.

I did a book report on Root's in the fourth grade and was a geek officially from that day forward. I had glasses, braces, bad hair and a bad home life.
Basically I was velcro for bullies.

[Words]

I think that sometimes we're our own worst enemies when it comes to silencing.

Here's an example. Not understanding how the reputation system works is driving me absolutely nuts. I hate not 'getting' things, especially when I've done all the research - in this instance, a visit to the FAQ section, the result of which was that I found myself more confused than ever - yet still find myself none the wiser. So why haven't I just started a thread/posted in a thread asking how it works? Because - and this is the honest truth - I'm worried that if I do, folks might think that perhaps I'm 'one of those people' who gives way too much importance to non-important things. Which I'm not. I just really want to know how it works because, well, I like to know things.

And so I sit, still confused, still wondering, still silenced by my fear of being seen as something I'm not. Now how silly is that?

Or is it silly?

[SuperFemme]

I think that sometimes we're our own worst enemies when it comes to silencing.

Here's an example. Not understanding how the reputation system works is driving me absolutely nuts. I hate not 'getting' things, especially when I've done all the research - in this instance, a visit to the FAQ section, the result of which was that I found myself more confused than ever - yet still find myself none the wiser. So why haven't I just started a thread/posted in a thread asking how it works? Because - and this is the honest truth - I'm worried that if I do, folks might think that perhaps I'm 'one of those people' who gives way too much importance to non-important things. Which I'm not. I just really want to know how it works because, well, I like to know things.

And so I sit, still confused, still wondering, still silenced by my fear of being seen as something I'm not. Now how silly is that?

Or is it silly?

O. M. G. you just made me laugh. Not at you but with you because I can relate.

See your avatar on the left side? Underneath it the dot, the scales and the red alert triangle? Click on the scales and rep away. IF that is what you are asking.

[NJFemmie]

I read it as MOST people who use big ole edumacational words are fine. Fabulous even. There are a select few that will wield these words as a weapon and use them to talk *down* to somebody else. I haven't seen it happen here. So I don't really think it was meant as a blanket statement, but more of a specific one.


There is a big difference between using an extensive vocabulary and being condescending. Frankly, I don't even bother with those types of posts because I can tell where it's coming from and I refuse to feed it power.

Is that silencing me? Perhaps. But at the same time it saves me the aggravation of being further annoyed by posts that make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and riddled with big, fancy schmancy words with complex grammatical sentences.

Someone earlier said it right - just because you SOUND smart, doesn't necessarily mean you are.

Simple is always best.

[Medusa]

Silencing = Using someones personal stories, shares as ammunition to be used as a means of belittling and thereby silencing them. Using gossip, falsehoods, negativity to describe someone and put a negative spin on their character.




TD, these two sentences resonated so deeply with me right now that it isnt funny.

I also want to add that a person who does this is more often than not speaking from a place of self-negativity. To put energy into trying to hurt/damage/inflict pain on another person by "destroying" their reputation or airing their dirty laundry that was told to them in the privacy of a friendship is a gross display of the WORST kind of ethical lacking in a human being.

I have also always been of the opinion that it says MUCH more about the person airing the laundry or "destroying the reputation" than it does about the person that its being done to.

It, unfortunately, still hurts the person its being done to, no matter how sad/angry/nasty the person who is doing it appears to be to others.

I have much MUCH more to say here but I'll leave it for now.

[Words]

O. M. G. you just made me laugh. Not at you but with you because I can relate.

See your avatar on the left side? Underneath it the dot, the scales and the red alert triangle? Click on the scales and rep away. IF that is what you are asking.

Thanks, but I get that part, I just can't make sense of the system as a whole. How does one accumulate rep 'power'? Do some folks have more rep power than others? Is your rep worth more than my rep (God forbid that anyone should give better rep than me:)) And what about the negative and neutral rep that's mentioned in the FAQ. Where is it? Why don't I see it? I HAVE TO KNOW!!! LOL, because yes, at the end of the day, it IS all about me. IT IS!!!

[little man]

Great post Bit! Yes its true, how we react to things is completely because of our life experiences. We all need to remember that.

And to women who see themselves as bathroom monitors.......:furious:
Cynthia uses the Men's room, apparently Men don't look at each other in the bathroom like women do.


they certainly don't. which makes life so much easier.

[SuperFemme]

Thanks, but I get that part, I just can't make sense of the system as a whole. How does one accumulate rep 'power'? Do some folks have more rep power than others? Is your rep worth more than my rep (God forbid that anyone should give better rep than me:)) And what about the negative and neutral rep that's mentioned in the FAQ. Where is it? Why don't I see it? I HAVE TO KNOW!!! LOL, because yes, at the end of the day, it IS all about me. IT IS!!!

I get the sense that the more rep you give and get the stronger you rep power. I know that vbulletin comes with the negative and neutral rep features, but they are not implemented here. We've all seen what a disaster THAT can be. NeedToKnowitis is contagious. Knock it off!

[Cyclopea]

I tend to see a post as either constructive, deconstructive, or both.
If I start to perceive a post- or poster- as being purely deconstructive I gloss over their posts or completely ignore them.

To me, a deconstuctive poster seldom adds to a conversation and lends a chilling effect to potential contributors who don't have the time or inclination to respond to the deconstruction of their post, and the need to reconstruct it over and over again until it is acceptable or understood by the deconstructer.

Instead of saying to themselves "OK, parts of the language in this post are imprecise or problematic, but I get the jist of the writer's intentions", a deconstructer will pick apart the post, bit by bit, line by line, often with copious usage of the multiquote feature, and demand- or feel entitled to- a reconstruction by the original poster. A deconstructer does not create their own post or offer anything constructive to a conversation. They are more like critics who dismantle the creations of others without themselves creating anything. This urge to deconstruction seems especially pervasive in academia, and sometimes in online forums.

I feel sorry for people who are unable to contribute anything but deconstruction to a conversation, but that doesn't make me obligated to respond to them or even read them.

Another silencing tactic on internet forums is the "drive-by downer" post, which is the forum equivalent of flashing the middle finger at another driver in traffic. An example would be posting something like ":|:|:|". Some posters seem to especially enjoy stepping into highly charged and important conversations to dump their snippy little bad vibe. This is another type of unconstructive (and lazy) type of posting that can be silencing in the same way that saying "go fuck yourself" can put a chill on a conversation.

Being silenced does not require consent. Screaming over someone whenever they attempt to speak, for example will effectively silence a speaker regardless of their consent.
YouTube- Unruly Republicans Disrupt Health Care Debate

Another way to accomplish this on an internet forum in a much more passive-aggressive way is to "spam" a thread with so many off-topic posts that the real conversation is buried or lost in the deluge.

One could even bump a bunch of other threads in order to remove a disliked conversation off the front page, or off the recent posts list in an attempt to bury it.

Women have historically been silenced by being called "too angry", "victims", "hysterical", "shrill", "bitchy", and all the other ways in which behaviors which are acceptable and respected from males are marginalized when exhibited by females.

I'm sure there are a million more ways to silence people.

What about reporting posts that the reader does not like or agree with?
If one group of people never reports posts, and another group frquently does, which group will be more silenced through moderation?

The principle that people cannot be silenced without their consent is not accurate in my understanding of group dynamics and human history (such as it is).

What are the solutions? If you can figure that out it would transform humanity. The ones that come to mind are war and separatism.

[Apocalipstic]

Great post Cyclopea!

It made me think of an example where I felt silenced, but decided to rise above and post anyway.

On another website someone started a very emotionally charged thread about parental abuse of a specific kind.

Someone came in and said parents do the best they can and people needed to just get over it and stop whining. :sigh:

Being a survivor myself, I immediately felt like maybe I needed to not speak out, maybe I needed to suck all my pain down and just deal. Maybe I deserved the abuse? maybe I am a whiner? Then, after I talked myself off the ledge, I decided that it is important for us to speak out because if it helps just one person to not feel so alone, it's worth putting myself out there....not to mention how much it helps to get things out.

So I felt silenced, but I spoke my truth anyway.

[Arwen]

So I felt silenced, but I spoke my truth anyway.

That RIGHT there is so important I wanted to blow it up to 7 Arial Black and make it red.

I resisted that urge.

But! That's what needs to happen.

If you (generic) feel silenced by me (specific), speak up anyway. Trust me when I say others will agree with you and support you. :)

Just trying to stay in the Me-Me zone!

[Gemme]

Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.


Gossip is definitely silencing, I think, because it takes the core of our justice system away. Innocent until proven guilty. It's like when you hear a song and then you hear another version of that same song. A study done long ago (that I have no way of digging up now so you all are just going to have to believe me in that it was done and I read up on it) came to the conclusion in this situation (or one mirroring the concept) that you would prefer the first version of the song you heard. I have noticed with myself that this is true with movies as well. My point? We tend to believe what we hear/see/learn first. Prime example? Marketing and advertising.

So, if I say something about person X to person Y, then person X is going to tend to believe me over person Y. Of course, there are variations. If persons X and Y had been best friends for 12 years previously, then neither would probably believe me. However, here, many of us are isolated from the reality of others. What we read and how we feel when we read it are our truths.

Bit mentioned something along that line that I agree with.

I get the sense that the more rep you give and get the stronger you rep power. I know that vbulletin comes with the negative and neutral rep features, but they are not implemented here. We've all seen what a disaster THAT can be. NeedToKnowitis is contagious. Knock it off!

I find seeing someone being told to knock it off silencing. :seconddoh: :whine:

KIDDING!!! :nyahnyah:

I have nothing but :awww: for you, missy miss.

I think you are correct in how the rep system works, from what I've noticed, as well as NeedtoKnowititis.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

What about freedom of speech? Don't we have a right to say what we feel, even if it offends others? Without the fear of being negatively repped, etc?

I honestly think that freedom of speech no longer exists, which therefore means people in this world are being silenced

[Corkey]

What about freedom of speech? Don't we have a right to say what we feel, even if it offends others? Without the fear of being negatively repped, etc?

I honestly think that freedom of speech no longer exists, which therefore means people in this world are being silenced

Problem is, now quoting my wife's father, "Your rights end at the beginning of my nose". Just as yelling fire in a crowded theater may be your right, however if someone gets killed in the stampede, (your) guilt of manslaughter will be justified.
Our rights of speech must be tempered with good judgement of when and how to say something. That is imperative, in my judgement.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Problem is, now quoting my wife's father, "Your rights end at the beginning of my nose". Just as yelling fire in a crowded theater may be your right, however if someone gets killed in the stampede, (your) guilt of manslaughter will be justified.
Our rights of speech must be tempered with good judgement of when and how to say something. That is imperative, in my judgement.

That is still being silenced, which is my whole point, don't tell someone they can or can't say or do as they please and then come around with all this justifications and stipulations. Justifications and stipulations do not set well with me by any means.

[Corkey]

That is still being silenced, which is my whole point, don't tell someone they can or can't say or do as they please and then come around with all this justifications and stipulations. Justifications and stipulations do not set well with me by any means.

No one that I'm aware of has said any such thing. Your right to free speech is just as important as another's, not more important. I think tone is everything, and I have been known to be blunt, still am, my tone is interpreted by every one differently. My words are the same for everyone, how you the listener take them is strictly up to your ears. Saying something in a generally positive way, is much different then saying it in a confrontational way, and that my friend is the difference.

[SuperFemme]

What about freedom of speech? Don't we have a right to say what we feel, even if it offends others? Without the fear of being negatively repped, etc?

I honestly think that freedom of speech no longer exists, which therefore means people in this world are being silenced

Doesn't freedom of speech go both ways? I mean I hear people say they want freedom of speech, but then they want the buck to stop there. Just as anyone has the *freedom* to say hurtful, racist, misogynistic or prejudice things, others have the *freedom* to speak up about it.

*Freedom* does not = A free pass.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Doesn't freedom of speech go both ways? I mean I hear people say they want freedom of speech, but then they want the buck to stop there. Just as anyone has the *freedom* to say hurtful, racist, misogynistic or prejudice things, others have the *freedom* to speak up about it.

*Freedom* does not = A free pass.


not asking for a free pass, just the fact that a person should be able to say or do what they want without the fear of being banned, repped negatively, etc.

But what I do have a problem with is someone trying to silence me by say rules, etc.

[SuperFemme]

not asking for a free pass, just the fact that a person should be able to say or do what they want without the fear of being banned, repped negatively, etc.

But what I do have a problem with is someone trying to silence me by say rules, etc.

What about other peoples freedom of speech though? Those negative reps and bans encompass that freedom too. What you are describing sounds more like anarchy than freedom of speech.

Please note, I am not trying to silence you. I'm just discussing your post. If we need to agree to disagree that is okay by me. I love Eleanor Roosevelt's quote "Never ask of others what you yourself are not willing to give".

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Hmmm you know you might be right anarchy might be a better choice of words and to what I seek.

[Gemme]

But what I do have a problem with is someone trying to silence me by say rules, etc.

Rules are not in place to silence anyone. They are in place so that many types of people can work, play, or 'be' together in such a way that everyone is treated as equally and fairly as possible.

A world without rules and boundaries of some sort is a world of chaos and indulgent privilege for those who can intimidate or buy others.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Rules are not in place to silence anyone. They are in place so that many types of people can work, play, or 'be' together in such a way that everyone is treated as equally and fairly as possible.

A world without rules and boundaries of some sort is a world of chaos and indulgent privilege for those who can intimidate or buy others.

which is basically an anarchy which is null of any goverment or ruler, etc!!!

[Gemme]

which is basically an anarchy which is null of any goverment or ruler, etc!!!

I am aware of what anarchy entails, but thank you for elaborating.

When you find this utopia for yourself, send a postcard, yes?

I can't speak for others, but I'll be here with my rules and boundaries and whatnot, watching the lights on the tree.

:smileyXmasTree:

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I am aware of what anarchy entails, but thank you for elaborating.

When you find this utopia for yourself, send a postcard, yes?

I can't speak for others, but I'll be here with my rules and boundaries and whatnot, watching the lights on the tree.

:smileyXmasTree:

Yes I shall send postcards when I find it but they might be just plain ones nothing fancy or maybe with the big anarchy symbol in black and red.

[Arwen]

not asking for a free pass, just the fact that a person should be able to say or do what they want without the fear of being banned, repped negatively, etc.

But what I do have a problem with is someone trying to silence me by say rules, etc.


This would work if we could trust one another not to say or do thing intentionally to hurt. Unfortunately, we all know that people will do and say things that hurt--sometimes intentionally.

There are things that I think do NEED to be silenced. Things that SuperFemme mentioned like racism and that ilk.

I do not believe we have the right to say anything we want in public. That is not, to me, what freedom of speech is meant for. Plus, that is a fairly American (I think) concept so it may not play well in all cultures. :)

I also am very much a change from within rather than a change from without which is what I view anarchy as. A very simplistic view to be sure!

[NotAnAverageGuy]

This would work if we could trust one another not to say or do thing intentionally to hurt. Unfortunately, we all know that people will do and say things that hurt--sometimes intentionally.

There are things that I think do NEED to be silenced. Things that SuperFemme mentioned like racism and that ilk.

I do not believe we have the right to say anything we want in public. That is not, to me, what freedom of speech is meant for. Plus, that is a fairly American (I think) concept so it may not play well in all cultures. :)

I also am very much a change from within rather than a change from without which is what I view anarchy as. A very simplistic view to be sure!


I agree with the first paragraph, and I do know people do, do those things on purpose.

I am just the type who says what and to whom I want to in public, that's how I was brought up. I am also very blunt, honest and rude about things when pissed off.

[Arwen]

I agree with the first paragraph, and I do know people do, do those things on purpose.

I am just the type who says what and to whom I want to in public, that's how I was brought up. I am also very blunt, honest and rude about things when pissed off.

And my truth is that I know that when I am angry or worse, hurt, I can be very very strident and razor-sharp. I used to have a good friend I could send things to for "review" before posting. That relationship has changed so I don't have that luxury anymore.

When I am angry, I do my best to not post or to phrase it so that it is very clear that I am angry and venting.

If I am hurt, I tend to lash out at anything and anyone that moves. When I had to put my beloved dog down a month ago today, I went no mail on several email lists and locked myself down on how and what to post.

I do not want to be that person anymore. That is part of the bitter, gossiping woman I have made a pledge to not be. :)

So, when I can't seek joy and I know I'm angry or hurt, I will remove myself as much as possible from the "easy" targets some forums (online lists and chats for the most part) make.

That way I can't show my rear so much. It's not easy. I've shown that part of my anatomy A LOT. Many people still expect it. That is not within my hula-hoop. All I can do is move forward and keep within my personal boundaries as best I can.

So, there are times when I silence myself intentionally.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Thats a good way to be and I understand how you feel about things

I am just glad we all can agree to disagree and help others out rather than fighting ya know

[julieisafemme]

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm;)

Words

Thank you for this post!!!! I have never felt stupid anywhere in my life until I started posting online. I do believe my IQ has dropped 20 points. Academic language is hard for me to touch and hold and twist around. Tell me a story about feelings and I will understand instantly.

[Medusa]

Thank you for this post!!!! I have never felt stupid anywhere in my life until I started posting online. I do believe my IQ has dropped 20 points. Academic language is hard for me to touch and hold and twist around. Tell me a story about feelings and I will understand instantly.

This would actually be a GREAT thread. A discussion on how academic language changes a conversation or the overtones of elitism (or lack thereof).

Cyclopea made a BEAUTIFUL post about academic language in another thread that I would like to see be part of that conversation.

My opinion: Academic language can feel silencing. Yes.

[Cyclopea]

This would actually be a GREAT thread. A discussion on how academic language changes a conversation or the overtones of elitism (or lack thereof).

Cyclopea made a BEAUTIFUL post about academic language in another thread that I would like to see be part of that conversation.

My opinion: Academic language can feel silencing. Yes.

Thank You Medusa for liking my post.:)

As a footnote (and shameless plug): I started a whole thread spoofing overwrought highfalutin "academese"-
"Chair Dance: Expressionism, Post Modernism, and Popular Culture".

So if anyone wants to spew a bunch of non-sensical smart-sounding bullshit about a stupid topic, come on over!
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391
And bring your multi-quote button! Cite your sources! Consult your thesaurus!
:rofl:

[Hudson]

Thank You Medusa for liking my post.:)

As a footnote (and shameless plug): I started a whole thread spoofing overwrought highfalutin "academese"-
"Chair Dance: Expressionism, Post Modernism, and Popular Culture".

So if anyone wants to spew a bunch of non-sensical smart-sounding bullshit about a stupid topic, come on over!
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391
And bring your multi-quote button! Cite your sources! Consult your thesaurus!
:rofl:


Ha, this is my favorite post ever.

[Bit]

As a footnote (and shameless plug): I started a whole thread spoofing overwrought highfalutin "academese"-
"Chair Dance: Expressionism, Post Modernism, and Popular Culture".

Ohhhhhhhhhmigawd *big relief* that was a spoof?! you did it so VERY well that I thought you were serious... and um... well... missin' a few screws from your toolbox, lol... :seconddoh:

[Cyclopea]

Ha, this is my favorite post ever.
Thank You!!!


Ohhhhhhhhhmigawd *big relief* that was a spoof?! you did it so VERY well that I thought you were serious... and um... well... missin' a few screws from your toolbox, lol... :seconddoh:

LMAO!!! Well the jury is still out on the missing screws, ha, but even after I invited chairmakers into the thread to offer their perspective? Really? :huhlaugh:
Satire is a fine line and I guess I did my job too well. Scary!
:jester:
:superfunny:

[Cyclopea]

OK sorry for the derail!
:eek:

[Andrew, Jr.]

How do you read a poster's tone of voice in a thread?

[apretty]

How do you read a poster's tone of voice in a thread?

by paying close attention to the details: content, choice of words, word usage, as well as punctuation. much like reading.

[apretty]

i forgot 'context'

[Bob]

How do you read a poster's tone of voice in a thread?

by paying close attention to the details: content, choice of words, word usage, as well as punctuation. much like reading.

Actually, it's not very easy (especially with people you don't know well, I'd imagine.)

"How good are you at guessing the tone of voice of the emails you receive? Can you tell when someone is being sarcastic, serious or is joking?
Most of us think we can do this about 90% of the time. However, according to psychologists Dr. Nicholas Epley (University of Chicago) and Dr. Justin Kruger (New York University), who published their research in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (http://content.apa.org/journals/psp/89/6/925.html) (membership required to access), we get it wrong 50% of the time. Those are the same odds as tossing a coin."

http://email-overloaded.com/2006/07/04/dont-write-to-me-in-that-tone-of-voice/

[Queerasfck]

I don't read posts. I just look at the smilies. I love 'em.

:whoop:

[apretty]

Actually, it's not very easy (especially with people you don't know well, I'd imagine.)

"How good are you at guessing the tone of voice of the emails you receive? Can you tell when someone is being sarcastic, serious or is joking?
Most of us think we can do this about 90% of the time. However, according to psychologists Dr. Nicholas Epley (University of Chicago) and Dr. Justin Kruger (New York University), who published their research in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (http://content.apa.org/journals/psp/89/6/925.html) (membership required to access), we get it wrong 50% of the time. Those are the same odds as tossing a coin."

http://email-overloaded.com/2006/07/04/dont-write-to-me-in-that-tone-of-voice/

false. bob is wrong. i can clearly denote tone every.single.time.

[Apocalipstic]

by paying close attention to the details: content, choice of words, word usage, as well as punctuation. much like reading.


Sometimes I can't.

Some people express themselves better than others, and what is rude or sarcastinc in NYC (for example) is way different than in Nashville. Something may sound abrupt to me, and it be the sweetest post ever to a person in Detroit (for example)

I try to go with face value, but as you know sometimes come up with the wrong conclusion.

Working on it though :)

I see so many reading comprehension misunderstandings. Not from you APretty, but in general.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I struggle with this. I cannot figure out who is joking or who is threatening or who is asking a question. I find it confusing.

[christie]

I struggle with this. I cannot figure out who is joking or who is threatening or who is asking a question. I find it confusing.

You might wanna check out this great thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446&highlight=online+communication

Its all about online communication.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=NJFemmie;18678]I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics.

i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=NJFemmie;18678]I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics.

i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?

It is odd to view disagreement as wrong. Thinking about putting negotiation into the mix and disagreement becomes a positive interaction. Sometimes I think people become silent because of fearing confrontation. Then, again, I have certainly known people in my life that simply want to be right and have no intention of communicating. Sometimes that is what it feels like online to me. A lot of grandstanding and not much in trying to understand what someone is expressing.

[imperfect_cupcake]

hmn. online is far different than in person. in person silencing happens - with me - if I perceive a threat. I will suddenly become very polite, cut the conversation short as possible and leave.

If I don't find it threatening, I'll mouth off.

On line... tbh, if I don't believe anyone will listen to what I have to say, my reasons, my logic, my experiences, and I think the people involved so far will only mock and belittle and dispute rather than honestly consider - rather than plan an articulate defence/forward demand/whatever - then I really can't be arsed. why should I waste my valuable time trying to engage, as far as I'm concerned, a bowl of screws and bolts? I might as well have an argument with my bathroom wall.

so when I stop talking is when I think others aren't listening. or aren't there to listen, discuss but merely to be right. I really honestly can't be arsed with that kind of stuff any more.