Christians apologizing

[blush]

Christians at Gay Pride (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/07/01/im-sorry-is-not-enough-for-the-gay-community/) are apologizing for homophobic actions.

The post was good, but take a moment and look at the comments.

Any thoughts?

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/07/Apologies%3Amaladjustedmedia.com.png

[Corkey]

The guy whose "church" it was admitted it was a hoax. This was circulated last year.

[Dude]

even if a hoax
what a nice idea

I am not religious but to me to sincerely "pray for someone"
you have to pray "they will get everything you want" for yourself.

A much different feel than praying for someone to have their sins (queerness) removed?

What timing on this thread as I am right in the middle of some very
disapproving family member conversation.
I'd like to parade down their fucking streets right now (w) half naked

[blush]

The guy whose "church" it was admitted it was a hoax. This was circulated last year.

Good grief, I didn't know that! I usually check sources better!

[Kobi]

Thank you for posting this. It is 2 years old, and as Corkey said a hoax.
But lets presume it was real and did happen for the right reasons.

I think I can understand why the author of the article may have some misgivings about the signs. But, I tend to agree with those who commented on the article.

Being a recovering catholic, I do believe in - let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me, and I believe in doing unto others as I would have them do onto me. Sometimes, I am even successful at it.

I dont expect others to understand all the ins and out of how the things they may say and do may affect me. But, if a sincere hand of peace is offered to me, as a good faith gesture of trying to right a wrong, I will reach out.

It just makes sense to me. Understanding, learning, evolution are not destinations. They are journeys of growth and development. Making mistakes and misjudgements is part of being human. Forgiveness and healing is also part of being human.

I can perpetuate hate or I can be an instrument of peace. The choice is mine. And, it is a selfish choice not an altruistic one. It is all about my well being, my peace of mind, the person I am and strive to be, the example I prefer to set.

It will never be about what what goes on out there. It will always be about what goes on inside of me.

Hoax or not, is an interesting topic to think about.

[Corkey]

Good grief, I didn't know that! I usually check sources better!

It's ok it is a good topic, however this particular "church" was totally exposed for the hypocrisy. He did it to garner more "christians" to his particular "church".

[blush]

It's ok it is a good topic, however this particular "church" was totally exposed for the hypocrisy. He did it to garner more "christians" to his particular "church".

I googled it as a hoax, but nothing concrete came up. Would you mind posting a link? I just want to know the full story.

I would still like to know if what "we" think about Christians apologizing. Is it necessary? Are we asking too much?

[Corkey]

I googled it as a hoax, but nothing concrete came up. Would you mind posting a link? I just want to know the full story.

I would still like to know if what "we" think about Christians apologizing. Is it necessary? Are we asking too much?

Oh lord that was 2 years ago, look at the Advocate, I think, my memory isn't what it used to be...

[blush]

http://www.advocate.com/politics/commentary/2010/07/14/preacher-lied

[Dude]

I lied about half naked :|

[blush]

I lied about half naked :|

Should we go into churches with signs? Half naked or not? What would the signs say?

[Dude]

Should we go into churches with signs? Half naked or not? What would the signs say?

no , that would be disrespectful.
that's their safe place and we get to have ours and
live our lives without being critiqued, picketed and
shamed.

[boobookitty]

Thank you for posting this. It is 2 years old, and as Corkey said a hoax.
But lets presume it was real and did happen for the right reasons.

I think I can understand why the author of the article may have some misgivings about the signs. But, I tend to agree with those who commented on the article.

Being a recovering catholic, I do believe in - let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me, and I believe in doing unto others as I would have them do onto me. Sometimes, I am even successful at it.

I dont expect others to understand all the ins and out of how the things they may say and do may affect me. But, if a sincere hand of peace is offered to me, as a good faith gesture of trying to right a wrong, I will reach out.

It just makes sense to me. Understanding, learning, evolution are not destinations. They are journeys of growth and development. Making mistakes and misjudgements is part of being human. Forgiveness and healing is also part of being human.

I can perpetuate hate or I can be an instrument of peace. The choice is mine. And, it is a selfish choice not an altruistic one. It is all about my well being, my peace of mind, the person I am and strive to be, the example I prefer to set.

It will never be about what what goes on out there. It will always be about what goes on inside of me.

Hoax or not, is an interesting topic to think about.





I agree, it would be nice to be able to have safe conversations about faith.

[dark_crystal]

Should we go into churches with signs? Half naked or not? What would the signs say?

no , that would be disrespectful.
that's their safe place and we get to have ours and
live our lives without being critiqued, picketed and
shamed.

I have always thought that the fastest way to "win" this "fight" would be through the Church.

We have a valid argument in the separation of church and state and how we shouldn't have to make a religious argument for our rights, and that is absolutely correct and I am sure it will work eventually, but....

imagine if every church was gay in the same proportions that the population is gay. If ten percent of every congregation was respectfully, but openly gay.

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence. When new people show up the church folks get ALL up in your business and the first question is "are you married?"

I bet the whole thing would be over in a year.

Now, the obvious question is "are you putting your money where your mouth is, Jenny? Shouldn't you be on your way to Faith United Methodist right now?"

Heck, no. The whole idea terrifies me.

But, still. I bet it would work.

[Gentle Tiger]

While this may be a hoax, I think it is something that should happen and on a regular basis and in different ways. I am one of those people feels the need to apologize for those who give Christianity a bad name. People of faith should be finding different ways to be supportive and say I'm sorry. My church for example, marches every year in San Diego Pride. We do this because want everyone to know there is a place where all are welcome, where we will not seduce you with acceptance and then try to change you, etc.

As an assistant pastor, I have lost track of the number of people I've encountered who have left their faith not because they have discovered another path in their spirituality but because of how they have been spiritually abused/exploited.

I have to head out to services and other tasks for today but I will be come back. Good discussion.

[Quintease]

I didn't realise he'd admitted it was a hoax :(

I knew there were a lot of questions and queries about his actions, particularly since his church was rumoured to support conversion therapy. What a tosser.

[Miss Scarlett]

It's a shame this was a hoax and even sadder that it's not and won't be the only one resorting to such tactics...

At Pride Charlotte 2007 a group was handing out silicon bracelets in Pride colors...people were snapping them up until it was discovered (and announced from the stage) that the seemingly friendly folks handing them out were members of one of the uglier protest groups and inside the bracelet was the address for a hate filled anti-LGBT web site where the main message was how we were all going to burn in hell...

[Ciaran]

Assuming it had not been a hoax (and, even if it was, there are similar examples of Christians apologising for homophobia and bigotry in the name of their religion), I actually am not in favour of it.

In fact, I am strongly against this type of apology.

Rather, in my mind, an apology needs to be personal. I am a Roman Catholic but I do not believe that I have the power or the authority to apologise on behalf of that Church to the many people it has, and continues to, hurt. Similarly, I don't see how others can apologise for the actions of their wider communities either.

Maybe it's just a semantics point but, to me, it is important.

With that said, I am wholly supportive of those religious folk, esp. those who are "straight" who are unambiguously in favour of equal rights for LGBT peoples and, more personally, who welcome LGBT people into their faith communities. Furthermore, those who are LGBT and practitioners of faith can play a powerful role in hopefully ensuring any future hurt caused by churches in the name of God is minimised.

Yesterday, I attended a one-day workshop here in London for LGBT Roman Catholics. It was tremendously powerful, if sometimes difficult, for me, esp. as my intuitive Roman Catholic faith tends to be on the more reactionary and judgemental side. I don't do Pride but a visible Roman Catholic community will be marching at London Pride (www.sohomasses.com) - whilst I won't be marching, I did however buy one of the t-shirts that they will be wearing on the march. It's a simply design of a cross and the words, "Nobody knows I'm Catholic".

[Toughy]

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/

that is the website for this guy.....apparently they are scheduled for another appearance at Chicago Pride...........it's in the 'current events' drop down...

the part that is a hoax is that he is supportive of us

[yotlyolqualli]

I don't think that the GLBT community inundating church's would do anything but cause more chaos, more distrust and stronger anti- homosexual feelings.

There ARE church's out there who are GLBT friendly and inclusive. When I left the Mennonite church, I left because I no longer believed the same way they did.

A church, not a religion or a faith, but a church, is founded on like mindedness. Most church's are governed by a constitution, or a written sometimes unwritten, creed of idealogies, rules, dogma and doctrine. I tend to think of church's as a "club". Just as each club has it's own sets of standards and rules, so do church's. Just like in a club, if a club member did something totally against the rules, OR no longer felt the want or need to follow club rules, they would either leave on their own, or be kicked out.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Many Christians don't believe that homosexuality is right. They think it's a one way ticket to hell, and you know what? It is perfectly OK for them to think that. What makes that attitude NOT ok, is when they try and legislate their idealogies and doctrine and belief, on those who do not believe the same way.

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

[Miss Scarlett]

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

Exactly...as my Grandmother used to say "Two wrongs do not make a right."

Back when i was on our Pride Committee we had countless discussions about how to deal with the protest groups and we decided that acting in a like manner made us no better than them and in fact only fed their "cause."

Since everyone was welcome to our festival they were no exception. We even offered them water if they looked as though the heat was getting to them...oddly enough we had no takers.

Near the end of our 2007 festival a transient gentleman wandered in to the event. It was obvious he'd been living outdoors and was carrying what appeared to be his worldy possessions. He just wandered in and sat down on the curb...the church members protesting clearly avoided him. But a large number of LBGT folks at the event did not. They spoke to him, made sure he had plenty to eat & drink, shared their cigarettes and welcomed him without hesitation. At the end of the event i had a chance to talk to him and he said he could tell that we we (our community) were good people and truly cared about others because of the way he was treated. Made me wonder how many of those protesting us would have treated him the same way had he wandered into one if their services or events...

[dark_crystal]

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

totally not what i said

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence.

[yotlyolqualli]

I am all for respectful protesting. I've done it, even within my own church.

Before I left the church, someone was speaking on spousal abuse and his (guest speaker) idea that the abused shouldn't seek outside help or leave. They should go to their chuch and allow the church to deal with it.

I had just come home from mission work in KY and WV. There I worked as a child and parent advocate at a shelter for abused women and their children. I knew the statistics. I had even met a young woman who had come there, who's father in law was a respected preacher. When she went to him with bruises all over her face and body, he told her she should try to be more pleasing for her husband so he wouldn't need to correct her.

This poor young woman and her little girl popped into my mind and before I could over think it, I stood up where I was sitting, and turned my back on the speaker. I stayed in that position, quietly, while he finished his sermon. I didn't move, I didn't flinch, I prayed.

I've only ever done that one time. I have gotten up and walked out of a church, but that was so over the top for me, that I couldn't let it go unchallenged.


If the LGBT all went as a large group to an unwelcoming church and integrated ourselves with them, waited until they loved and accepted us, then "came out".

Well, if that we me, I would feel decieved. I understand what you are saying, I truly do. But, there are very loving and honest people out there who TRULY believe that all gays are going to hell. In that love, they pray, they encourage but they won't budge from that belief. Most of them are NOT the ones trying to dictate their beliefs through laws enacted against our rights.

There will always be prejudices, always be people who will only ever see things as black or white. That is OK with me, as long as they keep it out of my "life".

And in return, I will keep my beliefs out of theirs.

[Nadeest]

An apology is one thing; but..... it can also be completely meaningless. How many people have we known that have apologized for their actions and yet did the same exact thing, later on?

I appreciate sincere apologies, but I also expect their actions to match their words, for that apology to mean anything to me. When they start taking actions to ensure that they never do that again, and are attempting to make amends for the wrong that they have done, THEN I am impressed, but not until then.

[princessbelle]

I've read through this thread and maybe i'm just not getting it tonight or i'm just way too tired.

But, why in the hell would anyone expect or want an apology from any church or organization or committee or group of anything in the first place?

From my point of view there isn't "one" singular type of person or place or institution that is responsible for our lack of rights and how we are treated on a day to day basis. It is people in general who have voted or not voted, whispered and criticized, ridiculed, beaten, screamed, spit, maimed and killed our family members in our LGBT community. Not a secular or specific person, people or place.

I realize that some parts of religion and some Christian history has played a big part in that. But, it's not the whole ball of wax. There are many LGBT churches. One group cannot take all of the blame and then overnight rectify what how we have been treated all over the world for centuries.

I would be way happier to see "We support you" or "We believe in the same God, come visit our church, you are welcome". But, apology? No, that's just silly to me.

[blush]

Assuming it had not been a hoax (and, even if it was, there are similar examples of Christians apologising for homophobia and bigotry in the name of their religion), I actually am not in favour of it.

In fact, I am strongly against this type of apology.

Rather, in my mind, an apology needs to be personal. I am a Roman Catholic but I do not believe that I have the power or the authority to apologise on behalf of that Church to the many people it has, and continues to, hurt. Similarly, I don't see how others can apologise for the actions of their wider communities either.

Maybe it's just a semantics point but, to me, it is important.

With that said, I am wholly supportive of those religious folk, esp. those who are "straight" who are unambiguously in favour of equal rights for LGBT peoples and, more personally, who welcome LGBT people into their faith communities. Furthermore, those who are LGBT and practitioners of faith can play a powerful role in hopefully ensuring any future hurt caused by churches in the name of God is minimised.

Yesterday, I attended a one-day workshop here in London for LGBT Roman Catholics. It was tremendously powerful, if sometimes difficult, for me, esp. as my intuitive Roman Catholic faith tends to be on the more reactionary and judgemental side. I don't do Pride but a visible Roman Catholic community will be marching at London Pride (www.sohomasses.com) - whilst I won't be marching, I did however buy one of the t-shirts that they will be wearing on the march. It's a simply design of a cross and the words, "Nobody knows I'm Catholic".

As far as I can tell, many of these apologies are coming from the point of view of "love the sinner, hate the sin." It will take a re-thinking of a religion's belief and interpretation of sin to change this view.

I really liked what you said about a few apologizing for what "they did." It got me thinking (along with some comments on the initial post) about personal responsibility for your own misguided beliefs. It's almost a cop-out to apologize for what "they" (in the name of your religion) did.

Another poster mentioned the bracelets, and that is so heinous. There's no words for that crap. And it buries and overshadows many good people of faith that are coming from an honest place on this issue. It makes the distrust even greater.

[blush]

I don't think that the GLBT community inundating church's would do anything but cause more chaos, more distrust and stronger anti- homosexual feelings.

There ARE church's out there who are GLBT friendly and inclusive. When I left the Mennonite church, I left because I no longer believed the same way they did.

A church, not a religion or a faith, but a church, is founded on like mindedness. Most church's are governed by a constitution, or a written sometimes unwritten, creed of idealogies, rules, dogma and doctrine. I tend to think of church's as a "club". Just as each club has it's own sets of standards and rules, so do church's. Just like in a club, if a club member did something totally against the rules, OR no longer felt the want or need to follow club rules, they would either leave on their own, or be kicked out.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Many Christians don't believe that homosexuality is right. They think it's a one way ticket to hell, and you know what? It is perfectly OK for them to think that. What makes that attitude NOT ok, is when they try and legislate their idealogies and doctrine and belief, on those who do not believe the same way.

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

I have always thought that the fastest way to "win" this "fight" would be through the Church.

We have a valid argument in the separation of church and state and how we shouldn't have to make a religious argument for our rights, and that is absolutely correct and I am sure it will work eventually, but....

imagine if every church was gay in the same proportions that the population is gay. If ten percent of every congregation was respectfully, but openly gay.

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence. When new people show up the church folks get ALL up in your business and the first question is "are you married?"

I bet the whole thing would be over in a year.

Now, the obvious question is "are you putting your money where your mouth is, Jenny? Shouldn't you be on your way to Faith United Methodist right now?"

Heck, no. The whole idea terrifies me.

But, still. I bet it would work.

I am all for respectful protesting. I've done it, even within my own church.

Before I left the church, someone was speaking on spousal abuse and his (guest speaker) idea that the abused shouldn't seek outside help or leave. They should go to their chuch and allow the church to deal with it.

I had just come home from mission work in KY and WV. There I worked as a child and parent advocate at a shelter for abused women and their children. I knew the statistics. I had even met a young woman who had come there, who's father in law was a respected preacher. When she went to him with bruises all over her face and body, he told her she should try to be more pleasing for her husband so he wouldn't need to correct her.

This poor young woman and her little girl popped into my mind and before I could over think it, I stood up where I was sitting, and turned my back on the speaker. I stayed in that position, quietly, while he finished his sermon. I didn't move, I didn't flinch, I prayed.

I've only ever done that one time. I have gotten up and walked out of a church, but that was so over the top for me, that I couldn't let it go unchallenged.


If the LGBT all went as a large group to an unwelcoming church and integrated ourselves with them, waited until they loved and accepted us, then "came out".

Well, if that we me, I would feel decieved. I understand what you are saying, I truly do. But, there are very loving and honest people out there who TRULY believe that all gays are going to hell. In that love, they pray, they encourage but they won't budge from that belief. Most of them are NOT the ones trying to dictate their beliefs through laws enacted against our rights.

There will always be prejudices, always be people who will only ever see things as black or white. That is OK with me, as long as they keep it out of my "life".

And in return, I will keep my beliefs out of theirs.

Isn't going to church, just going to church? At the heart of this argument is the fact that it sounds like many feel a need to announce we are queer to enter a church. If we hide it, we are being deceptive. If we are authentic, we risk being rejected. It's something we confront all the time. Who do we tell we're queer? It's another part of heterosexual privilege.

[Gentle Tiger]

One of the most humbling/honoring experiences I ever experienced was during my seminary life when a Professor apologized to me for all of the bigotry/racism he practiced against black people in the name of Christianity. He apologized not only for his actions but for those who claimed to represent Christ who had done inhumane things against others simply because they were black. I won't go into all of the details but it was a powerful moment for both of us. I know I'm an odd duck but this meant something to me and got me thinking about a lot of things. And this moment was one of many that changed my life.

Do I think that folks should just flippantly stand around on corners saying, I'm sorry for all the idiotic, foolish, condemning words and deeds ever done against our community? No. But do I think that churches who have been silent on the issue need to come forward and speak out against the hatred that has been voiced? Yes I do. Do I think that Pastors in the mainstream religions need to step forward and acknowledge the damage that has been done to many because of the message and exclusion that has been done? Yes I do.

Again, maybe it's because of the number of people I speak with. But the willingness to do this accompanied by actions that support the words do go a long way for some. I see the apology as saying we are sorry for what you have experienced. We are sorry that you have been treated like a second class citizen. We are sorry that people have misrepresented our faith. We are sorry for <fill in the blank>. There are several ways to express this and demonstrate this. For some this would be an excellent catalyst in facilitating spiritual healing.

Just my thoughts.

[blush]

One of the most humbling/honoring experiences I ever experienced was during my seminary life when a Professor apologized to me for all of the bigotry/racism he practiced against black people in the name of Christianity. He apologized not only for his actions but for those who claimed to represent Christ who had done inhumane things against others simply because they were black. I won't go into all of the details but it was a powerful moment for both of us. I know I'm an odd duck but this meant something to me and got me thinking about a lot of things. And this moment was one of many that changed my life.

Do I think that folks should just flippantly stand around on corners saying, I'm sorry for all the idiotic, foolish, condemning words and deeds ever done against our community? No. But do I think that churches who have been silent on the issue need to come forward and speak out against the hatred that has been voiced? Yes I do. Do I think that Pastors in the mainstream religions need to step forward and acknowledge the damage that has been done to many because of the message and exclusion that has been done? Yes I do.

Again, maybe it's because of the number of people I speak with. But the willingness to do this accompanied by actions that support the words do go a long way for some. I see the apology as saying we are sorry for what you have experienced. We are sorry that you have been treated like a second class citizen. We are sorry that people have misrepresented our faith. We are sorry for <fill in the blank>. There are several ways to express this and demonstrate this. For some this would be an excellent catalyst in facilitating spiritual healing.

Just my thoughts.
And a great perspective. I really resonated with the part I bolded!

[boobookitty]

We are sorry that people have misrepresented our faith.


There... those words are the key for any real apololgy from a Christian.

The original language, which most modern bibles are based, does not say the same thing as those modern text.

Many things in the writen word have been twisted and taken out of context.

I am gay, transgender, and a Christian. I have studied the orginal text which the bible was based on. I know for myself, what it says. Not what someone else said, or told me about it.

and... I feel like I have just put a 'bulls eye' on my back for someone/anyone who has an ax to grind against Christians. Everytime a person lumps people into stereotypical groups.... the truth gets lost.

If you are really an open minded and accepting human, you will say, "That person has a twisted sense of faith." or "That particular organization, is messed up." and not lump ALL Christians into the same pile of flith.

When people react to stereotype, or exclusively their own personal experience.
The whole truth/ big picture gets ignored.

[Ciaran]

One of the most humbling/honoring experiences I ever experienced was during my seminary life when a Professor apologized to me for all of the bigotry/racism he practiced against black people in the name of Christianity. He apologized not only for his actions but for those who claimed to represent Christ who had done inhumane things against others simply because they were black. I won't go into all of the details but it was a powerful moment for both of us. I know I'm an odd duck but this meant something to me and got me thinking about a lot of things. And this moment was one of many that changed my life.


I agree with most of your post but I struggle to understand this perspective. I totally understand how this Professor can apologise for his own actions against those who were black. However, what gives him the right to apologise for others in the way that they have acted?

To me, whilst I'm sure it's not intended as such, offering up an apology on behalf of a people is extremely arrogant unless you are an official representative of those people and have explicit authority to offer up such an apology.

In this instance, this Professor appears to be taking it upon himself to speak for, and represent, a large proportion of society. He doesn't. He can only represent himself (and, perhaps, those in his close circle) .... he cannot assume the voice of others.

[princessbelle]

I agree with most of your post but I struggle to understand this perspective. I totally understand how this Professor can apologise for his own actions against those who were black. However, what gives him the right to apologise for others in the way that they have acted?

To me, whilst I'm sure it's not intended as such, offering up an apology on behalf of a people is extremely arrogant unless you are an official representative of those people and have explicit authority to offer up such an apology.

In this instance, this Professor appears to be taking it upon himself to speak for, and represent, a large proportion of society. He doesn't. He can only represent himself (and, perhaps, those in his close circle) .... he cannot assume the voice of others.

This is really what i was trying to say in my post about anyone being "happy" about a group of people from any church apologizing. Apologizing for what? They can't take it upon themselves to bare the burden of how we have always been treated. I don't know. To me, even if this wasn't a hoax, it would just be silly and ridiculous.

I could stand in the streets tomorrow and say "I am sorry, from all of the Southern blonde headed women, to all teenagers, because you can't drive until you are 16 and that's just not right." It is just not logical that i have that power, no one person or small group can speak for a larger whole.

Unless, as you point out, they as individuals are apologizing for their own actions. It's going to take people, individually, coming to their own awareness that *we* are equals and should be treated that way.

IMO it's the only way anything will ever change.

[Gráinne]

I agree with most of your post but I struggle to understand this perspective. I totally understand how this Professor can apologise for his own actions against those who were black. However, what gives him the right to apologise for others in the way that they have acted?

To me, whilst I'm sure it's not intended as such, offering up an apology on behalf of a people is extremely arrogant unless you are an official representative of those people and have explicit authority to offer up such an apology.

In this instance, this Professor appears to be taking it upon himself to speak for, and represent, a large proportion of society. He doesn't. He can only represent himself (and, perhaps, those in his close circle) .... he cannot assume the voice of others.

Gotta quit following Ciaran around into threads like this one (I'm really not!)

This reminds me of the movement that pops up now and then, that white people should pay reparations to African-Americans for slavery, as a kind of apology. I see obvious problems with that: not every person of color is African-American, or descended from slaves, the lineage of many people of color in this country is much longer than that of most whites, so many white people weren't even here during those years; how do you classify biracial people, etc. That's another post, and probably a heated one ;).

Same with say, one German apologizing for all of Germany for the Holocaust. Many Germans opposed the Nazis and others aided Jews and other victims.

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.

[Ciaran]

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.

I've more thoughts on this matter and will post them when my 12 hour office day ends .... Alas, it has only begun.

[Quintease]

This is awesome, but long ezQjNJUSraY

[Wolfsong]

Aw that makes me sad. This was in Chicago. We saw these guys and walked away with a warm fuzzy feeling that maybe some corners were being turned.

Who knows maybe they were. If at least one of them changed their hearts while out there with us wouldn't it have been worth it? How many of us have had some redemptive feelings while doing a task we really didn't want to do? Say, for example, reluctantly agreeing to serve food at a homeless shelter and finding out something not only about the people you are serving, but yourselves as well?

I believe that God speaks to us in many ways that we do not expect. The twin to that picture is one of the parade participants hugging one of the Christians and crying. Whether the pastor was legit or not, in that moment, those two people were bonded and shared a moment of love, pleace, and healing. Maybe instead of fighting a complete battle, we should be fighting the battle of moments. Like this one. Moments that are strung together to make a change. I think, that's how you change hearts. One moment at a time.

[

[blush]

This is awesome, but long ezQjNJUSraY

Thank you so much for posting this! What an amazing young man.

[Ciaran]

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.


I think it's more basic than that. Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for. Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise.

For example, someone might suggest that he or she is apologising on behalf of all Christians for the injustices that GLBT peoples have suffered over the years. However, that person is indicating that he or she speaks for an entire people or movement when clearly he or she does not. A personal apology is real - an apology from a person on behalf of a people or movement may have honourable intentions but it comes across, to me at least, as crass and arrogant.



There are times when it is possible to apologise on behalf of a people. That's when the person apologising is in the (fortunate) position to be able to do so from both a personal and a corporate perspective i.e. as a bone fide representative of a people or society.


Same with say, one German apologizing for all of Germany for the Holocaust. Many Germans opposed the Nazis and others aided Jews and other victims.


Ironically, probably the most moving example of this in the 20th century was when the West German Chancellor Willy Brandt fell to his knees at the holocaust memorial on a state visit to Warsaw in 1970:

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad103/ulyssesgq/Brandt_Willy.gif

This was an extremely poignant moment and went some way towards easing some of the multitude of pain that remained following World War Two. That's not to suggest that all Germans were responsible for the attrocities caused by the Nazis. However, it was right and proper that the German nation apologised for this.

That said, it had to be the Head of State doing so, as Head of State but with personal emotion. A German individual cannot apologise on behalf of the German people / German nation anymore than I cannot apologise on behalf of the Northern Irish people for the attrocities that have been carried out by my people against the England nation over recent decades.


Hope that makes sense. I realise that my spelling here is proper English (i.e. we don't use "z"s) not Americanised English and that's something I definitely won't be apologising for :)

[boobookitty]

I think it's more basic than that. Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for. Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise.

>>I think it's more basic than that.

So do I, I am not the 'group' I in no way speak for the 'group' I am a person who knows better, I know more than the unenlightended persons within the group as far as education and experience is concerned. I am not a follower in a crowd, I am a lone voice, standing up, for what is right. I offer a small hope that others will learn as I have and make the turn to no longer follow the crowd.

>> Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for.

So, I as an individual and what I have to say, mean nothing to you? ... it doesn't matter that I personally didn't, "do the crime" so to speak, it doesn't matter that I know its wrong and say its wrong to treat gay's or any other human being in a hurtful, harmful and judgemental way just because of the way they are?
So then... I am now, by your standard, a person who has no right to set myself apart and say I don't agree with the 'group"? I don't fit the stereotype... I know that 'they' (the loud mouthed majority) are wrong and it hurts me? ..that it makes me sad to see it? ... You don't want to hear the truth that I know, they have twisted the words and rewritten the book? Are you saying, you will not accept--from me--? That they are NOT speaking the truth, but they are spouting a misrepresentation of that truth I know.


>> Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise


faith in Christ is not a 'group pass' event, it is an individual relationship between the Creator and the created,

when a gang of 'red shirts', attact a person in the street, does that make all of the people with 'red shirts' equally responsible?... of course not.

When I see someone spouting hate, under a Christian banner, I hurt. I would like to be able to make them stop, but I can't control them.
All I can do is say, "I am sorry, it isn't right for that to happen."

... and you have the choice to accept what I say as valid...
or lump me in with the crowd.

Its interesting how prejudice works that way.

[Kobi]

I can be incredibly literal but I dont take people apologizing on behalf of a group they belong to literally. It is a figurative thing to me. It is an acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between what ones faith says and what it does. And, it is an acknowlegdement that it is not an ok thing to do. To me, that is a very powerful thing for an individual to do.

In the same vein, I dont have a problem with the "love the sinner but not the sin" perspective. To me, to love the "sinner" requires them to acknowledge I am a human being....just like them. To me, that is where the potential for change lies. One on one, not one against an institution is where hearts change. That, to me, is where the power is.

It is all in ones perspective. Some need very public declarations of acceptance and validation, some need laws for equality and equity, some need to see their oppressors almost in a subserviant, remorseful position on their knees begging for forgiveness ad infinitum, some need something external to heal the inner wounds, some just want an attitude of live and let live, some need a combination of things. Different stuff works for different people for different reasons at different times.

To me, what is important is remembering we are all human and with that humanness comes a lot of good stuff as well as unpleasant and upsetting stuff. Accepting oneself as well as others as imperfect, flawed, yet interconnected human beings. Herein, to me, is where the potential for lasting change and peace resides.

We easily see the hatred outside of our community directed at our community. Yet, we try hard to be blind to the hatred within our community directed at one another. Be it racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, classism, elitism etc.

I do believe, as long as we (general we) believe there is an us and a them, strife will continue. Healing of the human condition will come when it comes from and for a collective we. As long as we focus on the trees, the forest will remain out of sight.

[blush]

I can be incredibly literal but I dont take people apologizing on behalf of a group they belong to literally. It is a figurative thing to me. It is an acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between what ones faith says and what it does. And, it is an acknowlegdement that it is not an ok thing to do. To me, that is a very powerful thing for an individual to do.

In the same vein, I dont have a problem with the "love the sinner but not the sin" perspective. To me, to love the "sinner" requires them to acknowledge I am a human being....just like them. To me, that is where the potential for change lies. One on one, not one against an institution is where hearts change. That, to me, is where the power is.

It is all in ones perspective. Some need very public declarations of acceptance and validation, some need laws for equality and equity, some need to see their oppressors almost in a subserviant, remorseful position on their knees begging for forgiveness ad infinitum, some need something external to heal the inner wounds, some just want an attitude of live and let live, some need a combination of things. Different stuff works for different people for different reasons at different times.

To me, what is important is remembering we are all human and with that humanness comes a lot of good stuff as well as unpleasant and upsetting stuff. Accepting oneself as well as others as imperfect, flawed, yet interconnected human beings. Herein, to me, is where the potential for lasting change and peace resides.

We easily see the hatred outside of our community directed at our community. Yet, we try hard to be blind to the hatred within our community directed at one another. Be it racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, classism, elitism etc.

I do believe, as long as we (general we) believe there is an us and a them, strife will continue. Healing of the human condition will come when it comes from and for a collective we. As long as we focus on the trees, the forest will remain out of sight.










You make some great points! My thoughts on the "love the sinner" theory is that is lumps who I am, fundamentally, with sin. Sin like murder. Sin like cheating. And it's even worse than that because to avoid my "sin," I must be alone. That's not acceptable to me.

[Arwen]

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.:moonstars:

[blush]

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.:moonstars:

Actually, it WAS me on that test. Sorry.

The whole "love the sinner" gambit adds to the feeling of "otherness." Because, unlike murder or other sins, we're more than likely going to do it again. So while everyone sins, our sins are unique in that they are unavoidable.

For the record, I do not follow the Christian faith. I respect all religions, and I acknowledge the special cultural significance Christianity has in the US.

As far as apologizing, it depends on intent. I would love to see a spiritual overhaul and redefining of homosexuality as not a sin. As long as homosexuality is seen as a sin, something punishable, something that we have to deny, apologies are meaningless. It's like saying, "We're sorry we were THAT mean to you. We still think you're shit, but we went too far." I find it super interesting that homosexuality seems to rank on the really, really bad sins. You don't see cheaters or murders being harassed the way we are.

As far as apologizing for the masses, it again depends. I will accept any sincere apology with personal responsibility. It isn't necessary, but change is.