Were you adopted in a closed adoption?

[Apocalipstic]

I'm in therapy for a multitude of things, but the one thing that I have never thought about much in regard to my depression and trauma healing is my adoption.

I am reading and pondering and want to discuss closed adoptions from the point of view of the adoptee.

If you put a child up for closed adoption, or adopted someone that way, you may want to stay away from this thread. There will be things you don't want to hear. You are welcome, but know you have been warned. This thread is not here to make you feel better, but to work through some of the issues adoptees go through.

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Great thread!!!!!


I knew I was adopted at an early age, I would have to ask my mom about the approximate age that I actually came out and said, I don't look like y'all or I don't belong to you (something along those lines)

I have never met my birth parents but have spoken to my real mother several times but can't trust her as far as I can throw her, so to speak.

My parents didn't have to tell me I kinda figured it out when I got older and asked them
if it was true.

[Diva]

I'm in therapy for a multitude of things, but the one thing that I have never thought about much in regard to my depression and trauma healing is my adoption.

I am reading and pondering and want to discuss closed adoptions from the point of view of the adoptee.

If you put a child up for closed adoption, or adopted someone that way, you may want to stay away from this thread. There will be things you don't want to hear. You are welcome, but know you have been warned. This thread is not here to make you feel better, but to work through some of the issues adoptees go through.

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen


Great thread, Jen....thank You for this!

I was adopted and taken from the hospital on the day I was born. They gave me a good life in comparison to what I would have had had I not been given up for adoption.

My biological mother had been abandoned by my birth father when he found out she was pregnant with me. So her sister (my 'aunt') convinced her that I should be given up. She already had another child by her first husband who had died. The sister is 12 years older than I.

I can't remember being told I was adopted; I've just always known. There were times that I felt being adopted was a curse. But now, having met my birth mother and half~sister, having been adopted was the best thing that could have happened.

My birth mother went on to divorce my father, and married 2 more times. I met her when I was 22. She was never forthcoming about my birth father and I guess I will always be a little bitter about that.

My 1/2 sister is unstable at best. She called me in May to tell me that our mother had died......in March of 2008. She said she had been "advised" not to tell me because I might come after the property. So I'm a little bitter with her too, as I would have wanted to go to her funeral. That's neither here nor there.

In the last few months, I have made contact with my 'niece' and will be visiting soon.

I love the story of my adoption... My adoptive Mom's name was Sybil. My birth mother's name was Sibyl. My name is Janey. My 1/2~sister's name is Janet.

Crazy, huh? :D

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Great thread, Jen....thank You for this!

I was adopted and taken from the hospital on the day I was born. They gave me a good life in comparison to what I would have had had I not been given up for adoption.

My biological mother had been abandoned by my birth father when he found out she was pregnant with me. So her sister (my 'aunt') convinced her that I should be given up. She already had another child by her first husband who had died. The sister is 12 years older than I.

I can't remember being told I was adopted; I've just always known. There were times that I felt being adopted was a curse. But now, having met my birth mother and half~sister, having been adopted was the best thing that could have happened.

My birth mother went on to divorce my father, and married 2 more times. I met her when I was 22. She was never forthcoming about my birth father and I guess I will always be a little bitter about that.

My 1/2 sister is unstable at best. She called me in May to tell me that our mother had died......in March of 2008. She said she had been "advised" not to tell me because I might come after the property. So I'm a little bitter with her too, as I would have wanted to go to her funeral. That's neither here nor there.

In the last few months, I have made contact with my 'niece' and will be visiting soon.

I love the story of my adoption... My adoptive Mom's name was Sybil. My birth mother's name was Sibyl. My name is Janey. My 1/2~sister's name is Janet.

Crazy, huh? :D



diva, did we come from the same family :superfunny:

*wink*

[Diva]

diva, did we come from the same family :superfunny:

*wink*


Scary for YOU! ;)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

HAHAHAH *winks*

I was born in Oklahoma and it is hella hard to get any court papers opened, most of the time they won't do it at all and that sucks.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks so much for participating!

I also was born in Oklahoma and adopted at 11 days. At the time I was born, 1963, Oklahoma had the highest rate of unwed mothers in the US and was the only state where you adopt a child and immediately take them out of the country.

I have met my birth parents, but after the original Ophah moment it was disappointing. I needed them to be sorry for discarding me, and they aren't. They gave me away because they loved me so much into a very very abusive situation. Logically I know they did the best they could.

When I met them I had what is called "the bastard moment" when you go from an upstanding member of society back to where you have to lie about who you are or have relatives who wont even look at you because you ruined their mother's life and so forth. It's not always or even often a happy daytime TV moment.

I was always told I was adopted, and at first thought all children were chosen. I later learned chosen as a replacement for the child my adopted parents dreamed they could have on their own. An impostor.

My birth certificate (the one made after the adoption, the one that does not have illegitimate stamped on it) says I am Scots Irish and that my adopted parents gave birth to me. Actually I am Irish and Cherokee. Not even the race they wanted.

I am no fan of the closed adoption system. Lies and secrets abound.

More later. :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Where in Oklahoma?

My real mother has lied to me so much about why I was given up and who she thinks my father is, that I have no clue where to start on searching for him.

I agree, closed adoptions are abound with lies and secrets.


On my birth certificate as well, I am listed as Cherokee and French, my adopted family is actually Swedish, Dutch and Kanza.

[christie]

Great thread idea!!

As an adoptee, I know much of what you have gone through.

I'm at work... busy busy day for us chief bean counters! I will be back to post my story...

In the meantime, have any of you ever read anything about "The Primal Wound?" It was very eye-opening to me...

Christie

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I don't read books, so if it's a book, I have no clue LOL

I try not to read about things pertaining to adoption and such cuz it angers me more and sets off things in my brain and I get mad.

[Rockinonahigh]

Man dose this hit a sore spot big time.I wish I had just been raised on an orpanage not knowing a thing about my family conections..ever,yes it would have been so much easyer to deal with.My grandparents were always my grannie and popa,they were the rock I had in my life till they passed.My aunt who I always thought of as my mom,really wasnt,talk about slap in the face when a 6yro finds out that the mom u thought u had wasnt at all.Mom was always distant with me,worked a lot..even when she was home.Over the years i took lots of bs about my bio parents abandoning me...he left then she handed me off to my aunt then hit the road just like the old man did.Both remarried adopted other peoples kids,raised them very well indeed,never a good word or thought about the kid they threw out.My bio mother,was the family wild child,daddio was a hot shot ladys man who loved then and left them.After a time they finaly hooked up with someone settled down with family and a life.I herd from so many aunts,uncles,cousins and ppl in general about how I was a wothless missbegotten child who would turn out like them cause it is preordained in me,how could I ever be any less.When my grand parents passed I was 10 when pops went and 16 when grannie passed.I had already become quite a rebel.then all hell broke loose after grannie went...if I wasnt bad ass enough befor I shure made up for it then.If anyone had ever cared to find out how the meanness of ppl can hurt a child,I would be a poster kid for the issue.The sence of being abandoned,unloved,put up with cause what else can u do with something u just have to deal with but dont remotely care about.They tryed to beat it out of me,ignore me.send me off to a catholic bordeing school to get rid of the prob...If I was pissed before u have no idea how pissed I really became.They didnt break me.what they did was give me a life of distrust feeling of not being able to trust what ppl say to me.To shorten the story I will say this...I servived...lots of tharapy...knowing my son loves me no mater what...my fur kids keep me grounded...finaly all the ppl involved in this mess (except me) passed away.Recently I got rid of the toxic ppl in my life(talk about feeling great) and I am moveing on in rebuilding my life one step at the time.
Rockin

[SuperFemme]

Thanks so much for participating!

I also was born in Oklahoma and adopted at 11 days. At the time I was born, 1963, Oklahoma had the highest rate of unwed mothers in the US and was the only state where you adopt a child and immediately take them out of the country.

I have met my birth parents, but after the original Ophah moment it was disappointing. I needed them to be sorry for discarding me, and they aren't. They gave me away because they loved me so much into a very very abusive situation. Logically I know they did the best they could.

When I met them I had what is called "the bastard moment" when you go from an upstanding member of society back to where you have to lie about who you are or have relatives who wont even look at you because you ruined their mother's life and so forth. It's not always or even often a happy daytime TV moment.

I was always told I was adopted, and at first thought all children were chosen. I later learned chosen as a replacement for the child my adopted parents dreamed they could have on their own. An impostor.

My birth certificate (the one made after the adoption, the one that does not have illegitimate stamped on it) says I am Scots Irish and that my adopted parents gave birth to me. Actually I am Irish and Cherokee. Not even the race they wanted.

I am no fan of the closed adoption system. Lies and secrets abound.

More later. :)

I too was adopted. My mother proceeded to abuse me until I was 14 and taken out of the home. After she had kicked me in the chest repeatedly while wearing clogs. She collapsed my mitral valve and left me in the driveway because she was angry that my father had gone to NM for his brothers funeral.

I knew I was adopted from early on, in fact I was reminded of it almost every day by Mom, who said I was her debt to society not a family member.

I don't reveal all this in a poor me manner. It is what it is and I've had years of therapy. Here is an interesting fact that is not loudly talked about:

It has long been documented that former foster kids are overrepresented in America's prisons....Example: "69% on inmates in California State Prisons were former foster children; 60% in Massachusetts were foster children" according to testimony on the Congressional Record. The same appears to be true of adoptees.... Example: According to FBI stats: "16% of 500 serial killers are adoptees." http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/foiaindex_s.htm and according to Dr. Mike Aamodt, Radford University, "14% of 225 serial killers are adoptees."
Therefore, it begs the question as to WHY, if adoption (instead of foster care or permanent guardianship) is truly in the adoptees' "best interests," does "an over-representation of adoptees" end up in prison --


regardless whether adopted as newborns or later in childhood,
regardless whether placed with abusive or loving adopters,
regardless whether they inherited "good genes" or "bad" genes from loving or abusive biological parents,
regardless whether of one race/nationality or another,

[Note that AmFOR includes as noteworthy not only adoptees whose behaviors since childhood have escalated to felony crimes but also some truly "wrongfully convicted" adoptees who have been easily coerced into admitting guilt or accepting plea bargains for crimes they did NOT commit from lifelong acquiescence regarding their unnatural status.]
While many factors result in criminal behaviors, the fact of the adoption, how it was handled in the adoptive home, and "Adopted Child Syndrome" is often purposely overlooked at trial because it is "politically incorrect" to explore adoption's negative effects on the adoptee. Savvy profilers, forensic psychologists, attorneys, writers and other researchers, factor in adoption's abuse, not as an "excuse" but as a contributory "reason" (the "WHY") for criminal behavior in these individuals.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Adele, I often wondered this about the inmates in our system but I don't see anything Politically Incorrect about bringing up the negative side of adoption.


Is it the anger the adoptee has that leads them to a life of violence or is it truly "bad genes"

Rockin,

I am so sorry that you and some of the other posters had to experience these horrid actions of your adopted parents, I grew up in a great home with lots of love yet today I am an angry adult who has tons of questions and no answers.

[Queerasfck]

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen

I was adopted at the age of eight months. I have not met my bio mom or family but I know their last name if I wanted to try. I was told my bio mom was an unmarried teen who could not care for me.
There was no "big moment" when I was told I was adopted. It was always openly discussed and I just remember that I always knew. In my case I do not consider my adoption a rough subject. I rarely ever think of trying to find my bio family. Maybe it's just my lazy unwillingness of trying to get to know another family's eccentricities that keeps me from doing it.
One negative about adopotion for me has always been not knowing my birth family's possible health risks. But overall I feel positive about my adoption. It deeply influenced me to adopt my own children. I have four.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I found some interesting links to skim over and read if y'all want to.

http://www.exiledmothers.com/adoption_facts/why_adoption_records_closed.html

http://edu.udym.com/closed-vs-open-adoption/

[Apocalipstic]

Where in Oklahoma?

My real mother has lied to me so much about why I was given up and who she thinks my father is, that I have no clue where to start on searching for him.

I agree, closed adoptions are abound with lies and secrets.


On my birth certificate as well, I am listed as Cherokee and French, my adopted family is actually Swedish, Dutch and Kanza.

I always felt like I was in a swirl of lies and secrets. Sometimes finding them does not fulfil our fantasy of who we always dreamed they were.

Great thread idea!!

As an adoptee, I know much of what you have gone through.

I'm at work... busy busy day for us chief bean counters! I will be back to post my story...

In the meantime, have any of you ever read anything about "The Primal Wound?" It was very eye-opening to me...

Christie

I just received it, I am reading that an some other books. Very eye opening! Loking forward to reading more about you. :)

Man dose this hit a sore spot big time.I wish I had just been raised on an orpanage not knowing a thing about my family conections..ever,yes it would have been so much easyer to deal with.My grandparents were always my grannie and popa,they were the rock I had in my life till they passed.My aunt who I always thought of as my mom,really wasnt,talk about slap in the face when a 6yro finds out that the mom u thought u had wasnt at all.Mom was always distant with me,worked a lot..even when she was home.Over the years i took lots of bs about my bio parents abandoning me...he left then she handed me off to my aunt then hit the road just like the old man did.Both remarried adopted other peoples kids,raised them very well indeed,never a good word or thought about the kid they threw out.My bio mother,was the family wild child,daddio was a hot shot ladys man who loved then and left them.After a time they finaly hooked up with someone settled down with family and a life.I herd from so many aunts,uncles,cousins and ppl in general about how I was a wothless missbegotten child who would turn out like them cause it is preordained in me,how could I ever be any less.When my grand parents passed I was 10 when pops went and 16 when grannie passed.I had already become quite a rebel.then all hell broke loose after grannie went...if I wasnt bad ass enough befor I shure made up for it then.If anyone had ever cared to find out how the meanness of ppl can hurt a child,I would be a poster kid for the issue.The sence of being abandoned,unloved,put up with cause what else can u do with something u just have to deal with but dont remotely care about.They tryed to beat it out of me,ignore me.send me off to a catholic bordeing school to get rid of the prob...If I was pissed before u have no idea how pissed I really became.They didnt break me.what they did was give me a life of distrust feeling of not being able to trust what ppl say to me.To shorten the story I will say this...I servived...lots of tharapy...knowing my son loves me no mater what...my fur kids keep me grounded...finaly all the ppl involved in this mess (except me) passed away.Recently I got rid of the toxic ppl in my life(talk about feeling great) and I am moveing on in rebuilding my life one step at the time.
Rockin

Angry, misbegotten, abandoned. I so get all that!
People have tried to break my will too, we are stronger than people think. Thank you so much for participating!


I too was adopted. My mother proceeded to abuse me until I was 14 and taken out of the home. After she had kicked me in the chest repeatedly while wearing clogs. She collapsed my mitral valve and left me in the driveway because she was angry that my father had gone to NM for his brothers funeral.

I knew I was adopted from early on, in fact I was reminded of it almost every day by Mom, who said I was her debt to society not a family member.

I don't reveal all this in a poor me manner. It is what it is and I've had years of therapy. Here is an interesting fact that is not loudly talked about:

It has long been documented that former foster kids are overrepresented in America's prisons....Example: "69% on inmates in California State Prisons were former foster children; 60% in Massachusetts were foster children" according to testimony on the Congressional Record. The same appears to be true of adoptees.... Example: According to FBI stats: "16% of 500 serial killers are adoptees." http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/foiaindex_s.htm and according to Dr. Mike Aamodt, Radford University, "14% of 225 serial killers are adoptees."
Therefore, it begs the question as to WHY, if adoption (instead of foster care or permanent guardianship) is truly in the adoptees' "best interests," does "an over-representation of adoptees" end up in prison --


regardless whether adopted as newborns or later in childhood,
regardless whether placed with abusive or loving adopters,
regardless whether they inherited "good genes" or "bad" genes from loving or abusive biological parents,
regardless whether of one race/nationality or another,

[Note that AmFOR includes as noteworthy not only adoptees whose behaviors since childhood have escalated to felony crimes but also some truly "wrongfully convicted" adoptees who have been easily coerced into admitting guilt or accepting plea bargains for crimes they did NOT commit from lifelong acquiescence regarding their unnatural status.]
While many factors result in criminal behaviors, the fact of the adoption, how it was handled in the adoptive home, and "Adopted Child Syndrome" is often purposely overlooked at trial because it is "politically incorrect" to explore adoption's negative effects on the adoptee. Savvy profilers, forensic psychologists, attorneys, writers and other researchers, factor in adoption's abuse, not as an "excuse" but as a contributory "reason" (the "WHY") for criminal behavior in these individuals.

Closed adoption is so not in anyone's interest. Adopted Child Syndrome exists and I hope more people will beging to see it for what it is and get their lovely ideas of all the happy adoptions out of their minds.

Adele, I often wondered this about the inmates in our system but I don't see anything Politically Incorrect about bringing up the negative side of adoption.


Is it the anger the adoptee has that leads them to a life of violence or is it truly "bad genes"

Rockin,

I am so sorry that you and some of the other posters had to experience these horrid actions of your adopted parents, I grew up in a great home with lots of love yet today I am an angry adult who has tons of questions and no answers.

Sorry if this brings up sore subject for you. I totally understand if its too much.

I was adopted at the age of eight months. I have not met my bio mom or family but I know their last name if I wanted to try. I was told my bio mom was an unmarried teen who could not care for me.
There was no "big moment" when I was told I was adopted. It was always openly discussed and I just remember that I always knew. In my case I do not consider my adoption a rough subject. I rarely ever think of trying to find my bio family. Maybe it's just my lazy unwillingness of trying to get to know another family's eccentricities that keeps me from doing it.
One negative about adopotion for me has always been not knowing my birth family's possible health risks. But overall I feel positive about my adoption. It deeply influenced me to adopt my own children. I have four.

I am so glad things worked well for you, you are in the minority actually.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

No it's not too much, this is a topic that needs to be talked about to where everyone can express how they feel about the topic and their feelings.

Thank you for this thread!!!

[Jet]

...................

Have you always known you were adopted?
Since I was 17

Have you met your birth parents?
My mother is my real mother. I found my dad when I was 28 through the FBI.

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?
It took my mother about 4 hours to tell me the whole story. And trust me, it is a movie.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I was adopted at the age of eight months. I have not met my bio mom or family but I know their last name if I wanted to try. I was told my bio mom was an unmarried teen who could not care for me.
There was no "big moment" when I was told I was adopted. It was always openly discussed and I just remember that I always knew. In my case I do not consider my adoption a rough subject. I rarely ever think of trying to find my bio family. Maybe it's just my lazy unwillingness of trying to get to know another family's eccentricities that keeps me from doing it.
One negative about adopotion for me has always been not knowing my birth family's possible health risks. But overall I feel positive about my adoption. It deeply influenced me to adopt my own children. I have four.

the sentence I bolded is the biggest frustration I have, I go to the dr. and can't tell them anything because I am adopted. I know a few things from my real mothers side of the family but not my fathers.

[Apocalipstic]

the sentence I bolded is the biggest frustration I have, I go to the dr. and can't tell them anything because I am adopted. I know a few things from my real mothers side of the family but not my fathers.


Its weird for me too, when I fill out paperwork at the doc's office, half of it says adopted.

[Apocalipstic]

...................


How traumatic to not find out you are adopted till 17! Did they tell you, or did you find out on your own?

Was your father glad you found him?

My life seems like a movie too, several of them. I totally get that.

Maybe thats why we love film so much, we feel like our lives are not really real? Apparently that is a pretty usual side effect of adoption.

Thank you for sharing!

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Its weird for me too, when I fill out paperwork at the doc's office, half of it says adopted.

The doc's look at me funny sometimes as well but I shrug it off because I don't think the concept of closed adoptions have come into play with their line of work.

I am to the point that I know some form of cancer will kill me or I will keel over dead at old age.

[Jet]

....................

How traumatic to not find out you are adopted till 17! Did they tell you, or did you find out on your own?

My mother told me the whole story when I was 17.

Was your father glad you found him?
My father was shocked; I wrote him a letter and sent it registered. All I wanted was for him to know I existed. After that, it wasn't necessary to keep in touch.

[Apocalipstic]

I found some interesting links to skim over and read if y'all want to.

http://www.exiledmothers.com/adoption_facts/why_adoption_records_closed.html

http://edu.udym.com/closed-vs-open-adoption/

I checked them both out.

Link one makes more sense to me than link 2 and has a lot of good info I found in the books I have been reading.

Link 2 talks in part about myths of adoption and how it is a myth that adoptees have problems often. I do not agree with that at all.

If there must be an adoption, I side for Open Adoptions where there are zero secrets.

[Apocalipstic]

The doc's look at me funny sometimes as well but I shrug it off because I don't think the concept of closed adoptions have come into play with their line of work.

I am to the point that I know some form of cancer will kill me or I will keel over dead at old age.

Logically we know we will die of old age, but every time I have a pain, I wonder if it is because of some disease I don't know about.

....................

Did it change your life when she told you? Are you angry about any of it?

[Rockinonahigh]

I get ya on wanting to know the info on health,cause I know nothing about the other side of the familys health issues.Once I did contact someone about it,I told them all I wanted was health info...they hung up the phone.I gess like most of us will never know much if anything.I figure all I can do is stay healthy and fit as I can.
A fue questions,it may sound kinda weired but, hear it is.Do any of u feel like u are constantly looking for something,waiting for something to happen.In one of my therapy sessions I ask about this,the anser I got was..everybody dose that it dosent matter who.
The reason I ask is so many times I feel like no matter how hard I try,how much I work to do all I can to be the best I can be,its not enough.Also in social situations I can be such a dork,I often dont really beleave ppl are wanting to include me in what ever is going on as they are just being pc in public.There is one more but im not shure how to say it right,but hear goes..This has triped me up a lot..when I meet someone intresting that I would like to know better...I hear what they say about me,us maybe dateing some more. I hear them but somewhere in my mind I either dissassosheate it or am not shure if they mean it,so to keep from being hurt again...I step back
and out of whatever it could become.This has cost me big time,I hate it for doing this,so dont really know how to get past this.
Rockin

[Jet]

Also in social situations I can be such a dork,I often dont really beleave ppl are wanting to include me in what ever is going on as they are just being pc in public.There is one more but im not shure how to say it right,but hear goes..This has triped me up a lot..when I meet someone intresting that I would like to know better...I hear what they say about me,us maybe dateing some more. I hear them but somewhere in my mind I either dissassosheate it or am not shure if they mean it,so to keep from being hurt again...I step back
and out of whatever it could become.This has cost me big time,I hate it for doing this,so dont really know how to get past this.
Rockin

I don't get what this has to do with adoption. I must have missed something here.

[Rockinonahigh]

Jet..Sorry I didnt think of it as a derail,but as of some of the problems that can often ocure because of the negative inpacts that happen when we deal with family as well as adoption issues and how they impact us in life.Consider he question withdrawn.
Rockin

[Jet]

Jet..Sorry I didnt think of it as a derail,but as of some of the problems that can often ocure because of the negative inpacts that happen when we deal with family as well as adoption issues and how they impact us in life.Consider he question withdrawn.
Rockin

No, its fine, i just couldn't get the connection.

[Rockinonahigh]

Jet
Sometimes I even confuse myself..adhd moment.
Rockin

[christie]

I was adopted at one day… well; actually 33 days if you count the first 32 were spent in the hospital considering I weighed in at a hefty 3.02 oz… quite a feat for 1970 in that I survived.

My parents told me I was adopted at about age 5. I remember running across the street to my aunt’s house, bursting through the front door and interrupting my cousins’ board game of Probe, “Did ya’ll know I am A D O P T E D?!?!?!?” My aunt’s jaw hit the floor; apparently my mother had neglected to tell her they were going to explain it to me. I went on to explain, “I am special. I was picked out. They chose me. They had to take Lonnie (my youngest brother) whether they wanted him or not.”

I was the answer to my mother’s lifelong dream of a “little girl.” My brothers, their natural children, were 16 and 15 when I arrived on the scene. You can tell from pictures that it was more that they “put up with me” as opposed to sharing in my parents’ exuberance.

My mother often tells the stories of literally hiding me when strange cars would pull into our drive that first year – because she just knew that my birth mother had changed her mind and decided to take me back.

Two years later, my youngest brother arrived… my mother had thought she was in menopause rather than that she was pregnant. My oldest brother married that same year, and in effect, we had “two families.”

Over the years, my mother (an undiagnosed bipolar) reminded me umpteen times how much expense and effort they endured to have me. It created an unspoken internal pressure in me to excel… in sports, in academics… you name it – I had to be the best.

It also made me feel defective. If only I had been _________ (fill in the blank), my birth mother (unwed teen) would have kept me. Couple this with the early realization I was gay…well, I have spent most of my life trying to be, prove something.

It was also apparent that I was a rotten brat. In as much as I felt at the time there were double standards between what was acceptable for me vs. what was acceptable for my brother, I can look back today and realized that I was just incorrigible in so many ways. If I didn’t get my way, I would merely start to pout and when the crocodile tears started rolling down my cheeks, I would say something about, “If I wasn’t ADOPTED…” O.M.G. I woulda buried me in the backyard.

I found my biological family when I was 23. I was pregnant with my son at the time. I had been on the “list” (in TN, there was (maybe still is) an Adoption Search Dept within the Dept of Human Services) since I was 21 (the legal age to search).

My story is slightly different than most in that my biological parents went on to marry and have two other children. We are all exactly 18 months apart in age. My sister (3 yrs younger) and I are as close as we can be… sometimes more so than others. My brother and I don’t speak at all. Our Uncle had told my sister when she was about 18 that I existed, so she wasn’t surprised when I surfaced. My brother, who up until that moment had been the oldest, would have the first grandchild, etc… well, he was less than pleased. Our noncommunication is a mutual decision. I have met him – even attended his wedding… but the bottom line is that we have no commonalities except we were born of the same two parents.

My birth parents and I… well, its almost like a penpal relationship. We communicate really well through my sister! LOL I think they and I both keep some distance out of respect for my parents.

My sister… oh my sister… She is the living breathing younger (straight) version of me… we look alike… and when we are with my bio mother, its like looking at the same woman at three different ages in her life. We speak alike, using the same patterns and expressions… even though she was raised in Florida and I in TN. My handwriting is nearly identical to my bio mother and even she has trouble telling my sister and I apart on the phone.

I never went looking for another set of parents… or even siblings. I looked for someplace I belonged – somewhere I fit. My parents and brothers… I never “fit” – my brothers all looked like my father… all had olive skin, brown eyes and hair… and then there was me… redheaded, freckles, buck-toothed as a beaver and so very tall…I liked Blues music and have an aptitude musically… They all like old Country or Southern Rock and can’t play any instruments… They all are very gifted artists… can draw most anything and my stick figures look like that of a child’s. They love wet, dripping saucy ribs and I want dry ribs…

Then I meet the bio family. I was born in Memphis. My grandmother still lived in the family home. When I drove down to meet them all for the first time, my Nanny Hazel looked at me, hugged me tight and said that she had waited for that day for 23 years. She then looked at my son’s father and said, “I don’t know who the hell you are but you look like a son of a bitch to me.” HA!!

I FIT!!! She led me to the dining room where my bio father was playing a blues tune on the upright piano and low and behold, there was a platter just overflowing with DRY RIBS from Bozo’s BBQ!!!

I FIT!! I really fit!!

Nature? Nurture? *shrugs*

I know this has been lengthy, but in as much as we have baggage from being adopted… and not all reunions are like Oprah… I think that the mediocre stories need to be told too.

Christie

[Apocalipstic]

I get ya on wanting to know the info on health,cause I know nothing about the other side of the familys health issues.Once I did contact someone about it,I told them all I wanted was health info...they hung up the phone.I gess like most of us will never know much if anything.I figure all I can do is stay healthy and fit as I can.
A fue questions,it may sound kinda weired but, hear it is.Do any of u feel like u are constantly looking for something,waiting for something to happen.In one of my therapy sessions I ask about this,the anser I got was..everybody dose that it dosent matter who.
The reason I ask is so many times I feel like no matter how hard I try,how much I work to do all I can to be the best I can be,its not enough.Also in social situations I can be such a dork,I often dont really beleave ppl are wanting to include me in what ever is going on as they are just being pc in public.There is one more but im not shure how to say it right,but hear goes..This has triped me up a lot..when I meet someone interesting that I would like to know better...I hear what they say about me,us maybe dateing some more. I hear them but somewhere in my mind I either dissassosheate it or am not shure if they mean it,so to keep from being hurt again...I step back
and out of whatever it could become.This has cost me big time,I hate it for doing this,so dont really know how to get past this.
Rockin


Actually many people who are adopted feel unconnected and angry. It's common in fact. I am surprised your therapist did not pick up on it.

I am not saying every adopted person, of course there are success stories, but a huge amount of adoptees continue to search all their lives and do not have any idea for what.

Adopted people are known to have abandonment issues too. Like even though people you try to date are telling you they want you, you still have that early trauma in the back of your head even if you don't know it's there, making you pull away. Like "I will leave first so you can't hurt me" kind of thing.

You suffered a very deep early trauma. That teeny helpless baby (you) was abandoned through no fault of your own and no matter how good your adoptive parents are, sometimes that trauma causes us to feel the ways we do. The social interaction difficulties, the problems connecting, in fact everything you mentioned can arise form adoption and the lies and secrets surrounding it. Not having a real past. and then when you reached out, you were turned away from again. No wonder you have these issues.

The books I am reading are: (Christie Avocado mentioned one)

Adoption Healing...a Path to Recovery by Joe Soll

Primal Wound by Nancy Veverier

Journey of the Adopted Self: A Quest for Wholeness by Betty Jean Lifton

Maybe you could start by reading some and talking here. Maybe we can all help each other work through some of this stuff?

[Rockinonahigh]

christie
So happy for u that u found such a happy place to fit,we often forget that not all adoptions are as good as we would like.As for the brother,its his loss,you family sounds like fun...ribs huh, wtg.
Rockin

[Apocalipstic]

I don't get what this has to do with adoption. I must have missed something here.


I think the things Rockin brings up are very usual of adopted people. I did not have any idea myself until my therapist told me and suggested some really great books, I just posted. Might be an interesting read?

Thanks so much for participating!

[Apocalipstic]

I was adopted at one day… well; actually 33 days if you count the first 32 were spent in the hospital considering I weighed in at a hefty 3.02 oz… quite a feat for 1970 in that I survived.

My parents told me I was adopted at about age 5. I remember running across the street to my aunt’s house, bursting through the front door and interrupting my cousins’ board game of Probe, “Did ya’ll know I am A D O P T E D?!?!?!?” My aunt’s jaw hit the floor; apparently my mother had neglected to tell her they were going to explain it to me. I went on to explain, “I am special. I was picked out. They chose me. They had to take Lonnie (my youngest brother) whether they wanted him or not.”

I was the answer to my mother’s lifelong dream of a “little girl.” My brothers, their natural children, were 16 and 15 when I arrived on the scene. You can tell from pictures that it was more that they “put up with me” as opposed to sharing in my parents’ exuberance.

My mother often tells the stories of literally hiding me when strange cars would pull into our drive that first year – because she just knew that my birth mother had changed her mind and decided to take me back.

Two years later, my youngest brother arrived… my mother had thought she was in menopause rather than that she was pregnant. My oldest brother married that same year, and in effect, we had “two families.”

Over the years, my mother (an undiagnosed bipolar) reminded me umpteen times how much expense and effort they endured to have me. It created an unspoken internal pressure in me to excel… in sports, in academics… you name it – I had to be the best.

It also made me feel defective. If only I had been _________ (fill in the blank), my birth mother (unwed teen) would have kept me. Couple this with the early realization I was gay…well, I have spent most of my life trying to be, prove something.

It was also apparent that I was a rotten brat. In as much as I felt at the time there were double standards between what was acceptable for me vs. what was acceptable for my brother, I can look back today and realized that I was just incorrigible in so many ways. If I didn’t get my way, I would merely start to pout and when the crocodile tears started rolling down my cheeks, I would say something about, “If I wasn’t ADOPTED…” O.M.G. I woulda buried me in the backyard.

I found my biological family when I was 23. I was pregnant with my son at the time. I had been on the “list” (in TN, there was (maybe still is) an Adoption Search Dept within the Dept of Human Services) since I was 21 (the legal age to search).

My story is slightly different than most in that my biological parents went on to marry and have two other children. We are all exactly 18 months apart in age. My sister (3 yrs younger) and I are as close as we can be… sometimes more so than others. My brother and I don’t speak at all. Our Uncle had told my sister when she was about 18 that I existed, so she wasn’t surprised when I surfaced. My brother, who up until that moment had been the oldest, would have the first grandchild, etc… well, he was less than pleased. Our noncommunication is a mutual decision. I have met him – even attended his wedding… but the bottom line is that we have no commonalities except we were born of the same two parents.

My birth parents and I… well, its almost like a penpal relationship. We communicate really well through my sister! LOL I think they and I both keep some distance out of respect for my parents.

My sister… oh my sister… She is the living breathing younger (straight) version of me… we look alike… and when we are with my bio mother, its like looking at the same woman at three different ages in her life. We speak alike, using the same patterns and expressions… even though she was raised in Florida and I in TN. My handwriting is nearly identical to my bio mother and even she has trouble telling my sister and I apart on the phone.

I never went looking for another set of parents… or even siblings. I looked for someplace I belonged – somewhere I fit. My parents and brothers… I never “fit” – my brothers all looked like my father… all had olive skin, brown eyes and hair… and then there was me… redheaded, freckles, buck-toothed as a beaver and so very tall…I liked Blues music and have an aptitude musically… They all like old Country or Southern Rock and can’t play any instruments… They all are very gifted artists… can draw most anything and my stick figures look like that of a child’s. They love wet, dripping saucy ribs and I want dry ribs…

Then I meet the bio family. I was born in Memphis. My grandmother still lived in the family home. When I drove down to meet them all for the first time, my Nanny Hazel looked at me, hugged me tight and said that she had waited for that day for 23 years. She then looked at my son’s father and said, “I don’t know who the hell you are but you look like a son of a bitch to me.” HA!!

I FIT!!! She led me to the dining room where my bio father was playing a blues tune on the upright piano and low and behold, there was a platter just overflowing with DRY RIBS from Bozo’s BBQ!!!

I FIT!! I really fit!!

Nature? Nurture? *shrugs*

I know this has been lengthy, but in as much as we have baggage from being adopted… and not all reunions are like Oprah… I think that the mediocre stories need to be told too.

Christie

Thats a great story Christie (Avocado) I am so happy you found a place you fit!

It all comes down to BBQ in the South doesn't it?

My biological grandparents were the ones who made my bio-mother put me up for adoption, so I never met them. Two of my bio brothers (half) would not even look at me when I met them so I get it about your brother.

My biological father says he did not know she was pregnant, but bio mom says he did. He was sent early on to Vietnam, so was there when I was born.

I also have felt the pressure to prove something, to overachieve. I completely get that.

My sister and I are both adopted. She also from Oklahoma. She has not been contacted by her birth parents.

[Jet]

I'm 53 and way past the point of wanting anything further to do with adoption stuff.:deadhorse: Like I said, I found my bio dad at 28. I called him on his shit and then I had peace. My father was a con in and out of prisons all through the 50s and early 60s.

My dad who adopted me when I was 5 is my dad and always will be.

[Rockinonahigh]

apocalipstic
Thanks for the headsup on the books,I will check at bam next time I go.My therapist says or said cause I dont go anymore,is that we can change life by just doing it..to some point she is right..others im not shure about.One thing for shure I had to really work on not being angry about it all,not shure I will eve compleatly get over any of the probs but I shure can make them less of an effect on my life.The triggers that set things off I stay away from as much as possable,and if im faced with it anyway I try to look at it in a diffrent light if possable.This isnt easy at times.Thanks for understanding cause sometimes I dont,just knowing im not the only one with this issue helpes a lot.
Rockin

[Apocalipstic]

I'm 53 and way past the point of wanting anything further to do with adoption stuff. Like I said, I found my bio dad at 28. I called him on his shit and then I had peace. My father was a con in and out of prisons all through the 50s and early 60s.

My dad who adopted me when I was 5 is my dad and always will be.

I get that completely and thank you for sharing what you have with us. :)

I am 46 and going through therapy as a trauma survivor and had never thought that the adoption stuff made any difference in my life. As I look into it, it explains so much about my anger inside. For me, my anger is not beating a dead horse.

For me, it is a good thing to process. I thought all my anger was from more recent trauma, but the trauma started before I was born.

I hope it will help with my anger and with my family phobia. Maybe my nightmares will stop, maybe I will feel whole.

[Apocalipstic]

apocalipstic
Thanks for the headsup on the books,I will check at bam next time I go.My therapist says or said cause I dont go anymore,is that we can change life by just doing it..to some point she is right..others im not shure about.One thing for shure I had to really work on not being angry about it all,not shure I will eve compleatly get over any of the probs but I shure can make them less of an effect on my life.The triggers that set things off I stay away from as much as possable,and if im faced with it anyway I try to look at it in a diffrent light if possable.This isnt easy at times.Thanks for understanding cause sometimes I dont,just knowing im not the only one with this issue helpes a lot.
Rockin

Thank you for discussing with me, it really helps me to know I am not alone in my anger too. :)

Yes, we can change our life by changing our behavior, but for me it helps to think about the whys. Different therapists work in all sorts of different ways, I wish you had had one who let yo know it is OK to feel like you do and why you feel like you do.

For me, knowing why helps me work past things. I have "aha moments" and can work through.

[christie]

Thats a great story Christie (Avocado) I am so happy you found a place you fit!

It all comes down to BBQ in the South doesn't it?

My biological grandparents were the ones who made my bio-mother put me up for adoption, so I never met them. Two of my bio brothers (half) would not even look at me when I met them so I get it about your brother.

My biological father says he did not know she was pregnant, but bio mom says he did. He was sent early on to Vietnam, so was there when I was born.

I also have felt the pressure to prove something, to overachieve. I completely get that.

My sister and I are both adopted. She also from Oklahoma. She has not been contacted by her birth parents.

It really IS all about the BBQ...

I don't want to give the impression that I had the Waltons kinda childhood... quite the opposite. One of those deadon examples of how things aren't always as they appear.

Momma was undiagnosed/unmedicated till I was about 16. She once was on her way down the hallway in between our (my younger brother and I's) room and hers with my father's favorite .38 in hand, going to "go ahead and kill them so they don't have to grow up in this world." It was fortunate that my father intercepted her.

She was chronically suicidal when my father was away for military crap. My oldest brother, his wife and children lived in the basement apartment of our home and Daddy felt safe leaving us. I remember no less than 5 times before my 12th birthday that Momma had swallowed a handful of pills and had to be forced to vomit by my brother.

Mental health issues weren't talked about... they were whispered about and heaven forbid if you sought treatment.

I know that she did the best she could given the "tools" she had. I know that her issues are chemical in nature (for the most part) and for the last 24 years or so, she had led a relatively "normal" life.

I can't tell you how robbed of a childhood I have felt. I can't describe the anger, hurt and abandonment issues I felt towards my father. My sister, when we are speaking (in those closer than other times) often laugh that a judge, two attorneys, the TN Baptist Children's Home and a couple social workers thought that I would be "better off" raised by my parents.

Then I look at the pictures of my folks when I was a baby. They were SO happy... so proud... and honestly, couldn't love me more than if I had been naturally theirs.

I tried therapy to deal with some of my issues regarding being adopted in my early 20's. I quickly came to the conclusion that I could spend years and thousands of dollars and still not be "whole."

I admire those willing to delve that deep with a professional to resolve the issues. I think that for me, I have chosen to acknowledge that they are there... and find "workarounds." Several years ago, I had a time of soulsearching, analyzing and "me work". I know that a lot of folks haven't yet had that... and maybe never will.

Maybe its like putting a band-aid on a spurting artery. Maybe its that "primal wound" that will never be healed.

For me, even "less than whole", I think that I'm pretty well functional. If my adoption issues continued to cause me distress in my daily life, I would be hunting them down and killing them.

I think in a lot of ways, I'm lucky that I've evolved into the person I am today.

[Jet]

I get that completely and thank you for sharing what you have with us. :)

I am 46 and going through therapy as a trauma survivor and had never thought that the adoption stuff made any difference in my life. As I look into it, it explains so much about my anger inside. For me, my anger is not beating a dead horse.

For me, it is a good thing to process. I thought all my anger was from more recent trauma, but the trauma started before I was born.

I hope it will help with my anger and with my family phobia. Maybe my nightmares will stop, maybe I will feel whole.

We need to start another thread on trauma survival. I am a trauma survivor; sever trauma. I'm game if you are. Mine is/was in the form of severe PTSD except in this case the "S" stands for shock not stress.

[Apocalipstic]

It really IS all about the BBQ...

I don't want to give the impression that I had the Waltons kinda childhood... quite the opposite. One of those deadon examples of how things aren't always as they appear.

Momma was undiagnosed/unmedicated till I was about 16. She once was on her way down the hallway in between our (my younger brother and I's) room and hers with my father's favorite .38 in hand, going to "go ahead and kill them so they don't have to grow up in this world." It was fortunate that my father intercepted her.

She was chronically suicidal when my father was away for military crap. My oldest brother, his wife and children lived in the basement apartment of our home and Daddy felt safe leaving us. I remember no less than 5 times before my 12th birthday that Momma had swallowed a handful of pills and had to be forced to vomit by my brother.

Mental health issues weren't talked about... they were whispered about and heaven forbid if you sought treatment.

I know that she did the best she could given the "tools" she had. I know that her issues are chemical in nature (for the most part) and for the last 24 years or so, she had led a relatively "normal" life.

I can't tell you how robbed of a childhood I have felt. I can't describe the anger, hurt and abandonment issues I felt towards my father. My sister, when we are speaking (in those closer than other times) often laugh that a judge, two attorneys, the TN Baptist Children's Home and a couple social workers thought that I would be "better off" raised by my parents.

Then I look at the pictures of my folks when I was a baby. They were SO happy... so proud... and honestly, couldn't love me more than if I had been naturally theirs.

I tried therapy to deal with some of my issues regarding being adopted in my early 20's. I quickly came to the conclusion that I could spend years and thousands of dollars and still not be "whole."

I admire those willing to delve that deep with a professional to resolve the issues. I think that for me, I have chosen to acknowledge that they are there... and find "workarounds." Several years ago, I had a time of soulsearching, analyzing and "me work". I know that a lot of folks haven't yet had that... and maybe never will.

Maybe its like putting a band-aid on a spurting artery. Maybe its that "primal wound" that will never be healed.

For me, even "less than whole", I think that I'm pretty well functional. If my adoption issues continued to cause me distress in my daily life, I would be hunting them down and killing them.

I think in a lot of ways, I'm lucky that I've evolved into the person I am today.


Ahh yes, the TN Baptist Children's home, I have had dealings with them too.

I've worked on other stuff in therapy, but it never occurred to me that some of my issues come from the lies and secrecy around my adoption.

I am pretty successful too, but the past year have been really rough with the death of my adoptive father from who I was estranged. In dealing with that, I find he was not my only issue.

[Apocalipstic]

We need to start another thread on trauma survival. I am a trauma survivor; sever trauma. I'm game if you are. Mine is/was in the form of severe PTSD except in this case the "S" stands for shock not stress.


Start it and I will post! Ha, I've said all this here, why not! :)

[Rockinonahigh]

apocaliptic
yeah,those nightmares can and are hell.I have some that are so real its scary,most mornings I roll out of bed in a sweat heart raceing others I barely or dont remember at all,the ones I do remember are mostly about abuse,loss as well I some like im on the outside looking in on what like should have been..then theres one nearly like I describe just a bit diffrent,my therapist calls it a rescue dream.I hear the voice,feel the presence.smell the sents...just never see the face...really weired.
Gotta go for now,be back on later...yall take care.
Rockin

[Apocalipstic]

apocaliptic
yeah,those nightmares can and are hell.I have some that are so real its scary,most mornings I roll out of bed in a sweat heart raceing others I barely or dont remember at all,the ones I do remember are mostly about abuse,loss as well I some like im on the outside looking in on what like should have been..then theres one nearly like I describe just a bit diffrent,my therapist calls it a rescue dream.I hear the voice,feel the presence.smell the sents...just never see the face...really weired.
Gotta go for now,be back on later...yall take care.
Rockin

I wonder if it is a memory from before or right after you were born....

[Diva]

My heart goes out to those of You who have experienced trauma throughout all of this adoption process.....

I consider myself pretty fortunate, in spite of the fact that I have a lot of hindsight over the way my Mom's extended family treated me.

I have to laugh when I think on it......we see it all the time, don't we? Here's a whole field of sheep and then there's that cute black one over there (me) who is SOOOOOOO not like any of the others. I'm not sure how my parents dealt with how different I was! <giggle> All of the cousins were all quiet and plain and .......forgive me....BORING. And here is this child who lived with such happiness and would bound in a room and be so full of glee and say the first thing on her mind....and say it LOUDLY! (My joke has always been that my Dad's favorite word for me was "Shhhh!!!".)

Here lately, I have had to make the difficult decision to "divorce" myself from future contact with my bio 1/2~sister for her toxicity and passive~aggressiveness. Some of the things she has said to me ~ out loud and in writing ~ has been outrageous.

I just don't have time for crap like that.

This thread is SOOOOOO interesting...finding out just how many of us have experienced chosen families.....thanks, Jen, for starting it! It's a difficult topic sometimes.......and took a lot of courage to open up the discussions!

[Rockinonahigh]

apocaliptic
Before or after birth dreams...never thought about that.I do know im the oldest of twins,born ten sceonds after midnight (if that means anything,not to me but did to my grannie who was old world to the letter) premmie all of one pound 14oz.Grannie said I came hear holloering like a banshee,my twin didnt make it..or so they say cause I cant find out anything cause of closed records.My grannie told me I was a throw back to her younger days in the old country,said I would have made a good gypsy cause I had the heart and soul that her mother would love.

Diva I so get u on being the odd one in the family,then add queer to it,yep u got, it a barrel full of sh--.I was the first one to try about anything,go where I wanted,do what I could get a way with.I was born into a staunch italian catholic family where a girl child grew up to make more little catholics to be bidable and follow the rules.One cousin went into the priesthood,one of my widowed aunts became a nun.In truth my femele cousins were anything but saintly and the male couisins drunks,abusers and doper..all coverd up in a bright shiny package of reapectablity.Actually even with all I have gone threw I feel so blessed not to have ended up any worse that did.Heck all it took was for me to just grab bags and walk out of the mess,them get help while I rebuilt my life.
Rockin

[always2late]

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?


I have always known I was adopted, my parents told me as soon as I was old enough to understand what it meant. I don't remember them telling me, it seems like I have always known. I have not met my birth parents, my records are sealed. However, I did find out that in NY (where my adoption took place), one could petition the Department of Social Services for nonidentifying information. When I was pregnant with my son, I decided to try this option. What I was really looking for was any medical information they might have. That is one of my concerns with closed adoption. In this day and age of early screening and prevention for a multitude of health problems, I am at a disadvantage not knowing my medical history.

The information I received was not very helpful...but considering the age of my biological parents it was not surprising. After all, how many of us as teens think about our medical history? I did find out the ages of my bio parents, their heritage, height, weight, hair and eye color, but not much else.

[bigbutchmistie]

I'm in therapy for a multitude of things, but the one thing that I have never thought about much in regard to my depression and trauma healing is my adoption.

I am reading and pondering and want to discuss closed adoptions from the point of view of the adoptee.

If you put a child up for closed adoption, or adopted someone that way, you may want to stay away from this thread. There will be things you don't want to hear. You are welcome, but know you have been warned. This thread is not here to make you feel better, but to work through some of the issues adoptees go through.

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen

I always knew growing up I was adopted. My adopted parents told me from real young.

I was put on a bus when I was 18 with the clothes on my back with a bus ticket and told I was never welcomed in their home again (adopted parents) sent up here to Big D to meet my real parents.

And my adopted parents told me I was adopted by telling me that I would grow up fat and not wanted just like the trash that had me. Which my biological mom was not.

[christie]

Ahh yes, the TN Baptist Children's home, I have had dealings with them too.

I've worked on other stuff in therapy, but it never occurred to me that some of my issues come from the lies and secrecy around my adoption.

I am pretty successful too, but the past year have been really rough with the death of my adoptive father from who I was estranged. In dealing with that, I find he was not my only issue.


:awww: (insert great big gay hugs here)

I know you are pretty successful... You are an amazing woman and I'm glad you recognize what others around you know... you rawk.

Sometimes, things come forefront, at least for me, when I least expect them to... perhaps the timing of "now" for your adoption issues is more that you were in a place to be open to the idea that it "might be more"... sometimes (again, at least for me) its easier not to acknowledge something as to not breathe life into it. *shrugs* but then, whatdoiknow? LOL

I don't think it matters when you deal with them... at least you are moving forward... making that effort.

Its hard. It hurts. Its especially difficult for those of us with entrenched trust/openness issues to be that emotionally vulnerable. With our loved ones... with our partners... let's not even talk about with strangers.

For me, the resolution to some things is that there is no resolution. It just is.

I've got good listening ears if you ever need to talk.

Christie

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I checked them both out.

Link one makes more sense to me than link 2 and has a lot of good info I found in the books I have been reading.

Link 2 talks in part about myths of adoption and how it is a myth that adoptees have problems often. I do not agree with that at all.

If there must be an adoption, I side for Open Adoptions where there are zero secrets.

I am not totally for open adoptions due to the fact they can be tested in court, I recall the story of an open adoption where a child was adopted out and then the real mom changed her mind and got the kid back.

But I am not fond of closed adoption either due to the records being sealed




Logically we know we will die of old age, but every time I have a pain, I wonder if it is because of some disease I don't know about.



Did it change your life when she told you? Are you angry about any of it?


I agree I wonder if its a disease that I don't know about

[Jess]

:awww: (insert great big gay hugs here)

I know you are pretty successful... You are an amazing woman and I'm glad you recognize what others around you know... you rawk.

Sometimes, things come forefront, at least for me, when I least expect them to... perhaps the timing of "now" for your adoption issues is more that you were in a place to be open to the idea that it "might be more"... sometimes (again, at least for me) its easier not to acknowledge something as to not breathe life into it. *shrugs* but then, whatdoiknow? LOL

I don't think it matters when you deal with them... at least you are moving forward... making that effort.

Its hard. It hurts. Its especially difficult for those of us with entrenched trust/openness issues to be that emotionally vulnerable. With our loved ones... with our partners... let's not even talk about with strangers.

For me, the resolution to some things is that there is no resolution. It just is.

I've got good listening ears if you ever need to talk.

Christie

Not being an adoptee, I hope this is not seen as intrusive.

I do think sometimes the issues that our partners face or have faced need to be seen by us and appreciated. I have had two partners now who were adopted and it is amazing how very differently they have each dealt with the issues that come with it.

I also am a firm believer in the notion that the universe never gives us more than we can handle and that it works with divine timing. Meaning.. when the stuff surfaces, it is usually exactly when it needs to, as we have become ready to address it.

I am very grateful for this thread and will back out now to not distract. You all are incredible folks! The willingness to share is nothing but pure strength and grace. Thank you.

[Apocalipstic]

My heart goes out to those of You who have experienced trauma throughout all of this adoption process.....

I consider myself pretty fortunate, in spite of the fact that I have a lot of hindsight over the way my Mom's extended family treated me.

I have to laugh when I think on it......we see it all the time, don't we? Here's a whole field of sheep and then there's that cute black one over there (me) who is SOOOOOOO not like any of the others. I'm not sure how my parents dealt with how different I was! <giggle> All of the cousins were all quiet and plain and .......forgive me....BORING. And here is this child who lived with such happiness and would bound in a room and be so full of glee and say the first thing on her mind....and say it LOUDLY! (My joke has always been that my Dad's favorite word for me was "Shhhh!!!".)

Here lately, I have had to make the difficult decision to "divorce" myself from future contact with my bio 1/2~sister for her toxicity and passive~aggressiveness. Some of the things she has said to me ~ out loud and in writing ~ has been outrageous.

I just don't have time for crap like that.

This thread is SOOOOOO interesting...finding out just how many of us have experienced chosen families.....thanks, Jen, for starting it! It's a difficult topic sometimes.......and took a lot of courage to open up the discussions!


I was adopted by teeny people, I at 5'5" am as tall as most of my male cousins. My mother was 5'1" and grandmother was 4'11". I was a bull in a chinashop. Very awkward, very out of place. Very weird.

Still am around them.

You sound adorable as a kid! xoxoxoxoxo

apocaliptic
Before or after birth dreams...never thought about that.I do know im the oldest of twins,born ten sceonds after midnight (if that means anything,not to me but did to my grannie who was old world to the letter) premmie all of one pound 14oz.Grannie said I came hear holloering like a banshee,my twin didnt make it..or so they say cause I cant find out anything cause of closed records.My grannie told me I was a throw back to her younger days in the old country,said I would have made a good gypsy cause I had the heart and soul that her mother would love.

Diva I so get u on being the odd one in the family,then add queer to it,yep u got, it a barrel full of sh--.I was the first one to try about anything,go where I wanted,do what I could get a way with.I was born into a staunch italian catholic family where a girl child grew up to make more little catholics to be bidable and follow the rules.One cousin went into the priesthood,one of my widowed aunts became a nun.In truth my femele cousins were anything but saintly and the male couisins drunks,abusers and doper..all coverd up in a bright shiny package of reapectablity.Actually even with all I have gone threw I feel so blessed not to have ended up any worse that did.Heck all it took was for me to just grab bags and walk out of the mess,them get help while I rebuilt my life.
Rockin

Gosh, a twin too. No wonder you have bad dreams. Was the Grannie your aropted Grannie?

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?


I have always known I was adopted, my parents told me as soon as I was old enough to understand what it meant. I don't remember them telling me, it seems like I have always known. I have not met my birth parents, my records are sealed. However, I did find out that in NY (where my adoption took place), one could petition the Department of Social Services for nonidentifying information. When I was pregnant with my son, I decided to try this option. What I was really looking for was any medical information they might have. That is one of my concerns with closed adoption. In this day and age of early screening and prevention for a multitude of health problems, I am at a disadvantage not knowing my medical history.

The information I received was not very helpful...but considering the age of my biological parents it was not surprising. After all, how many of us as teens think about our medical history? I did find out the ages of my bio parents, their heritage, height, weight, hair and eye color, but not much else.

So you know they were teens? I read that most birth parents who give up their kids are actually 19-30. Mine was 17.

I always knew growing up I was adopted. My adopted parents told me from real young.

I was put on a bus when I was 18 with the clothes on my back with a bus ticket and told I was never welcomed in their home again (adopted parents) sent up here to Big D to meet my real parents.

And my adopted parents told me I was adopted by telling me that I would grow up fat and not wanted just like the trash that had me. Which my biological mom was not.

Oh thats just great! I am so sorry they said that to you. How did you know where ot go? had you always known where your bio-parents were?

:awww: (insert great big gay hugs here)

I know you are pretty successful... You are an amazing woman and I'm glad you recognize what others around you know... you rawk.

Sometimes, things come forefront, at least for me, when I least expect them to... perhaps the timing of "now" for your adoption issues is more that you were in a place to be open to the idea that it "might be more"... sometimes (again, at least for me) its easier not to acknowledge something as to not breathe life into it. *shrugs* but then, whatdoiknow? LOL

I don't think it matters when you deal with them... at least you are moving forward... making that effort.

Its hard. It hurts. Its especially difficult for those of us with entrenched trust/openness issues to be that emotionally vulnerable. With our loved ones... with our partners... let's not even talk about with strangers.

For me, the resolution to some things is that there is no resolution. It just is.

I've got good listening ears if you ever need to talk.

Christie


:) Thank you sweetie!! xoxoxo

I may find that there is no answer, but I have several issues I somehow need to try to resolve. My family phobia if nothing else.

I want to feel comfortable at parties. I want to be excited to visit family (both mine and Cynthias). I want to stop being so easily overwhelmed. Stop scanning, stop overreacting, learn to relax.

Maybe it will help, and either way I get to meet new people and hear interesting stories and know that I am not alone in my feelings.

Its all good!

[Apocalipstic]

Not being an adoptee, I hope this is not seen as intrusive.

I do think sometimes the issues that our partners face or have faced need to be seen by us and appreciated. I have had two partners now who were adopted and it is amazing how very differently they have each dealt with the issues that come with it.

I also am a firm believer in the notion that the universe never gives us more than we can handle and that it works with divine timing. Meaning.. when the stuff surfaces, it is usually exactly when it needs to, as we have become ready to address it.

I am very grateful for this thread and will back out now to not distract. You all are incredible folks! The willingness to share is nothing but pure strength and grace. Thank you.

Thanks for posting! :)

I think for those of us who have been abandoned in a huge way early on, having an understanding supportive partner is a wonderful and very important thing!

I like the idea of things surfacing when we are ready to handle them. :)

Again, thanks for posting and being so supportive! :)

[bigbutchmistie]

Yes they knew that's where I was sent ar 18 to meet with a bus ticket.

Some people should adopt and others should never be allowed to.

I know this sunject is hard for everyone hugs all around

[Apocalipstic]

Yes they knew that's where I was sent ar 18 to meet with a bus ticket.

Some people should adopt and others should never be allowed to.

I know this sunject is hard for everyone hugs all around

You have to have a licence to fish, but anyone can have a baby.

Crazy isn't it?

[Diva]

You have to have a licence to fish, but anyone can have a baby.

Crazy isn't it?



It is.:twitch:

[bigbutchmistie]

Yep It Is crazy

[Rockinonahigh]

apocaliptic
my grannie was my bio grannie,she was from the old country Italy as she called it,her family heritage was a hodgepodeg of things.Mostly Italian,some spanish a bit from romainia.Grand pa was full scicilain,younger son who took his inheratence off to the new world(usa).The family rumor was that grannie had the gift and was some sort of seer,she read cards,had chryistels ect.She could almost anser many questions before I could ask them.No,she never would teach me anything no matter how hard I tryed to get her to,said it had no place in the up and comeing world I lived in.To bad cause I would love to know the things she did.
Rockin

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I agree some people shouldn't be allowed to adopt or have babies....


My real mother is one of those people, she was in essence a HO, I can say that cuz that's my birthmom. She has 7 other kids besides me, I was the only one given up for adoption, my only brother is in prison for murder and is a lifer, my sisters are addicts with children by different men (ala Jerry Springer and Maury show type).

I have been told there are 2 men who can possibly be my father but my mother lies so much I am not sure I can trust her but with her track record, I can kinda see how that could be possible.

I am either from Oilfield Trash or Cattle Rancher trash LOL, either one isn't bad, just wish I knew which one I was.

[Rockinonahigh]

Dealing with and liveing threw this crazy often hurtfull life of mine,I at this point realise even tho it was in many was a liveing hell that I wouldnt wish on anyone....That I have servived it to be a better person,more understanding of others,that im still an open book waiting for new chapters to be whriten(sp?GRRRR).They may have bent the hell out of me but didnt break my soul or my mind.Somewhere I read what dosent break u will make u stronger,it took me a long time to understand that fully,now that I do get it,that statement is wort its weight in gold...tho I dont chose to repete the experence,wish I had come to this place by a better road..I did get hear with the help of good people,places like bfp who I share experences with.I hope I have helped u as much as u have me.Just remember this.....We are her,doing what we can to get threw every day the best we can.No matter what or how we live we are viable in this world.For me as with many who go threw all this bs we achived much and will contenue as life keeps going.
Rockin

[Apocalipstic]

It is great, I agree, to have people we can discuss all this with. Not knowing your background or where you come from is scary and something many people do not understand.

They think we should be thankful that someone adopted us, "took us in", as it were....like we will forever be tainted by our illegitimacy.

It boggles my mind that in this day and age, people still think lying to kids and feeling like its the right thing to do.


I would not wish adoption on anyone, and have spent most of my life wishing that abortion had been legal when I was conceived. I do not get how it seems to be a better idea to give a family member away to people you do not know. Anything can happen to a defenseless baby. And people say they give away their children out of love. Whatever.

I am a huge proponent of using birth control. It needs to be available everywhere. On every street corner.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I think some people need to be sterilized and castrated, birth control should be a law in this country.

[Apocalipstic]

I think some people need to be sterilized and castrated, birth control should be a law in this country.

Gotta agree!

[FeminineAllure]

I was adopted in a closed adoption at 3 days old. Life was always dysfunctional with my family and still is up to this very day. But I would not trade my life with them. I learned alot.
I know my birth mothers name and age and that my biological father was her boyfriend. She was divorced at the time and already had 3 children is as much as I know.
I have my original birth certificate and my name was Joy on it. I was named Lisa Marie.
I was told I was adopted as early as I could comprehend what that meant. I have two brothers one adopted one 9 years younger than me who is their biological son. I feel equally as close to both my brothers.
I am sorry for all of those that had bad experiences with being adopted. My life was not always the best either. I just don't want to go into depth with some of my personal experiences.
There was abuse, there was alcoholism.
But I believe I chose my parents. My experiences both bad and the good made me who I am today and I am happy how I turned out. If I was raised by my biological family there are no gaurantees it would have been any better.
I have no desire to meet my birth family. I feel I was put up for adoption not the other way around. So It is up to her to search for me. I would not be opposed to meeting them but it's not a need of mine if I never do.

[bigbutchmistie]

It is great, I agree, to have people we can discuss all this with. Not knowing your background or where you come from is scary and something many people do not understand.

They think we should be thankful that someone adopted us, "took us in", as it were....like we will forever be tainted by our illegitimacy.

It boggles my mind that in this day and age, people still think lying to kids and feeling like its the right thing to do.


I would not wish adoption on anyone, and have spent most of my life wishing that abortion had been legal when I was conceived. I do not get how it seems to be a better idea to give a family member away to people you do not know. Anything can happen to a defenseless baby. And people say they give away their children out of love. Whatever.

I am a huge proponent of using birth control. It needs to be available everywhere. On every street corner.


I completely agree with this entire post Well said :)

[FeminineAllure]

I completely agree with this entire post Well said :)

Although I only know most of you through photos and your posts I would like to tell you I am happy you were not aborted. And there is a good reason you were not.

You are all so handsome and beautiful! Inside and out. And your thoughts, opinions and experiences are all worth being here to share with others. Not to mention the people you have met and partner/s lives you have touched deeply or are meant to meet in the near future. Their lives will be changed for the better by yours.
There are no mistakes.

[Jet]

Although I only know most of you through photos and your posts I would like to tell you I am happy you were not aborted. And there is a good reason you were not.

You are all so handsome and beautiful! Inside and out. And your thoughts, opinions and experiences are all worth being here to share with others. Not to mention the people you have met and partner/s lives you have touched deeply or are meant to meet in the near future. Their lives will be changed for the better by yours.
There are no mistakes.

My life is a mistake, trust me.

[iamkeri1]

I hope you will not feel it an intrusion for me to post here. I am an adoptive Mom. Hubby and I adopted four kids who had been our foster kids, a sib group, the youngest four out of seven children we know of.

Their mother was a drug addict, and while not exactly a prostitute, let's just say she usually had some guy or another around to provide money. While in her custody, the kids saw her get beaten multiple times, shot at, and stabbed. She used drugs in front of them and when they were hungry she sent them to the corner store where she had credit established, but when the credit ran out, she knew they would steal to survive.

I'm just giving you this background to say that even though she was a pretty awful mother, I thought for a long time that it would have been easier on the kids to stay with her. It costs the state a great deal of money to "protect" kids who are in foster care. There is the cost of the court, the judge, the attornies, the court building, the therapists, the social workers, the paperwork, etc. etc. Then they pay the foster parents to take care of the kids. I assure you this is not much. For what you call a "generic" kids in MI, you get 50 cents per hour. Generic, now isn't that a great name for a kid?

If some of this money had been used to get help for the mother, maybe she would have been able to keep them. If she had been de-toxed and sent to a program. If she had a parenting coach to work with her in the home, showing her good disciplinary methods, and how to handle her own anger. If she had had a babysitter a few hours a week, or someone to call for help when she was jonesing at 3 o'clock in the morning. If someone had arrested the guys who were beating her up. I don't know if it would have worked, but I feel trying to help the birth parents is usually a better solution than taking the kids away. She is supposedly clean right now, so maybe she could have gotten clean then with help. She is still very low functioning. She lives in a residential hotel and provideds janitorial services in exchange for rent. She shares her room with a man who is supposed to be her husband. She gets a lot of her food from her oldest child, my kids's sister. But she is clean, and that is worth a lot. Unfortunately, to my daughter that is like another wound. "Why couldn't she get clean when she had us?, she asks.

Their adoption has always been open in a sense, because they were all old enough at the time to remember being adopted. The older sister has always been in contact with the mother, and a strong proponent of the kids recognizing that she is their mother. Except for my daughter, none of them have wanted to meet her, but nonetheless she has always been a part of our lives. We have always talked openly about their family. (All the kids have different dads and knowledge of them is limited mostly to their names.)

We have always been in contact with their older sister, whom they adore. (She did not want to join our family. She is racially mixed, identified with her African American ancestry, and didn't want to grow up in a white home, though my two youngest boys are 1/2 A A too.) I have always praised, honored, and thanked her, because she largely raised the kids (She is four years older than my oldest son.), at great cost to herself. She did not go to school much and is barely literate. Needless to say, caring for her mother and six other kids, she did not have much of a childhood. She now is married and has four kids of her own. She seems to be a good loving mother.

There are many tales to tell about the suffering my kids have gone through both with, and as a result of having been taken away from their mother. When hubby died six years ago, that was a blow that I am not yet sure we as a family have survived. I hope we will make it. But more than that, I hope THEY will make it. I hope they will learn to love themselves enough to be happy adults, or at least functional adults.

I will continue to read this thread, looking for continued help with understanding my kids needs, and explanations for myself as to the reasons for some of the gaps there appear to be in their ability to function in a familial relationship, or even have close friends. If you allow me, I will post every once in a while. If I can help anyone, please let me know.

Lastly I just want to add that there is a reason I finally decided it was a good thing that the kids were removed from their mothers home. Four years ago, when my oldest son was 17 and in a drug treatment program, he called me, crying, to tell me that he had just revealed at a therapy session that his mother had used him in sex acts with men to earn money for drugs. He had never been able to tell this to us before, he said, because it was so awful to him that he could not even say the words. Four years later this beautiful, hardworking young man is in prison. At 18 he stole a car so he could go buy drugs, drove through four counties fleeing the police, and only stopped when they rammed into the car and drove him off the road. He has attempted suicide twice while in prison, and every time the caller ID shows a number from the area he is locked up, I am afraid they are calling me to tell me he is dead.

I have certainly not been a perfect mother, I have made many mistakes. They certainly have not been perfect either. I hope someday we will all be all be able to forgive each other. Our goal when we adopted to them was to keep them together. That I have done. And I have stood by them, no matter what. I hope their future tales of me will not be as filled with pain as some of the stories you tell.

Blessings to you all. I wish I could wrap my arms around you and heal all your pain.
Smooches,
Keri

[Apocalipstic]

I was adopted in a closed adoption at 3 days old. Life was always dysfunctional with my family and still is up to this very day. But I would not trade my life with them. I learned alot.
I know my birth mothers name and age and that my biological father was her boyfriend. She was divorced at the time and already had 3 children is as much as I know.
I have my original birth certificate and my name was Joy on it. I was named Lisa Marie.
I was told I was adopted as early as I could comprehend what that meant. I have two brothers one adopted one 9 years younger than me who is their biological son. I feel equally as close to both my brothers.
I am sorry for all of those that had bad experiences with being adopted. My life was not always the best either. I just don't want to go into depth with some of my personal experiences.
There was abuse, there was alcoholism.
But I believe I chose my parents. My experiences both bad and the good made me who I am today and I am happy how I turned out. If I was raised by my biological family there are no gaurantees it would have been any better.
I have no desire to meet my birth family. I feel I was put up for adoption not the other way around. So It is up to her to search for me. I would not be opposed to meeting them but it's not a need of mine if I never do.


Thank you so much for posting! :)

How cool you got to find out what your first name was, so many of us don't get to :) I wonder what my name would have been, and when I met my bio half brothers and sister, I called myself her name in my head for a while, wondering if her name was the one I would have had, had I been kept. Silly I know.

I did not search for my birthparents either, they searched for me. It was all very surreal.

I hope you will not feel it an intrusion for me to post here. I am an adoptive Mom. Hubby and I adopted four kids who had been our foster kids, a sib group, the youngest four out of seven children we know of.

Their mother was a drug addict, and while not exactly a prostitute, let's just say she usually had some guy or another around to provide money. While in her custody, the kids saw her get beaten multiple times, shot at, and stabbed. She used drugs in front of them and when they were hungry she sent them to the corner store where she had credit established, but when the credit ran out, she knew they would steal to survive.

I'm just giving you this background to say that even though she was a pretty awful mother, I thought for a long time that it would have been easier on the kids to stay with her. It costs the state a great deal of money to "protect" kids who are in foster care. There is the cost of the court, the judge, the attornies, the court building, the therapists, the social workers, the paperwork, etc. etc. Then they pay the foster parents to take care of the kids. I assure you this is not much. For what you call a "generic" kids in MI, you get 50 cents per hour. Generic, now isn't that a great name for a kid?

If some of this money had been used to get help for the mother, maybe she would have been able to keep them. If she had been de-toxed and sent to a program. If she had a parenting coach to work with her in the home, showing her good disciplinary methods, and how to handle her own anger. If she had had a babysitter a few hours a week, or someone to call for help when she was jonesing at 3 o'clock in the morning. If someone had arrested the guys who were beating her up. I don't know if it would have worked, but I feel trying to help the birth parents is usually a better solution than taking the kids away. She is supposedly clean right now, so maybe she could have gotten clean then with help. She is still very low functioning. She lives in a residential hotel and provideds janitorial services in exchange for rent. She shares her room with a man who is supposed to be her husband. She gets a lot of her food from her oldest child, my kids's sister. But she is clean, and that is worth a lot. Unfortunately, to my daughter that is like another wound. "Why couldn't she get clean when she had us?, she asks.

Their adoption has always been open in a sense, because they were all old enough at the time to remember being adopted. The older sister has always been in contact with the mother, and a strong proponent of the kids recognizing that she is their mother. Except for my daughter, none of them have wanted to meet her, but nonetheless she has always been a part of our lives. We have always talked openly about their family. (All the kids have different dads and knowledge of them is limited mostly to their names.)

We have always been in contact with their older sister, whom they adore. (She did not want to join our family. She is racially mixed, identified with her African American ancestry, and didn't want to grow up in a white home, though my two youngest boys are 1/2 A A too.) I have always praised, honored, and thanked her, because she largely raised the kids (She is four years older than my oldest son.), at great cost to herself. She did not go to school much and is barely literate. Needless to say, caring for her mother and six other kids, she did not have much of a childhood. She now is married and has four kids of her own. She seems to be a good loving mother.

There are many tales to tell about the suffering my kids have gone through both with, and as a result of having been taken away from their mother. When hubby died six years ago, that was a blow that I am not yet sure we as a family have survived. I hope we will make it. But more than that, I hope THEY will make it. I hope they will learn to love themselves enough to be happy adults, or at least functional adults.

I will continue to read this thread, looking for continued help with understanding my kids needs, and explanations for myself as to the reasons for some of the gaps there appear to be in their ability to function in a familial relationship, or even have close friends. If you allow me, I will post every once in a while. If I can help anyone, please let me know.

Lastly I just want to add that there is a reason I finally decided it was a good thing that the kids were removed from their mothers home. Four years ago, when my oldest son was 17 and in a drug treatment program, he called me, crying, to tell me that he had just revealed at a therapy session that his mother had used him in sex acts with men to earn money for drugs. He had never been able to tell this to us before, he said, because it was so awful to him that he could not even say the words. Four years later this beautiful, hardworking young man is in prison. At 18 he stole a car so he could go buy drugs, drove through four counties fleeing the police, and only stopped when they rammed into the car and drove him off the road. He has attempted suicide twice while in prison, and every time the caller ID shows a number from the area he is locked up, I am afraid they are calling me to tell me he is dead.

I have certainly not been a perfect mother, I have made many mistakes. They certainly have not been perfect either. I hope someday we will all be all be able to forgive each other. Our goal when we adopted to them was to keep them together. That I have done. And I have stood by them, no matter what. I hope their future tales of me will not be as filled with pain as some of the stories you tell.

Blessings to you all. I wish I could wrap my arms around you and heal all your pain.
Smooches,
Keri

I am glad you posted and so happy that you were able to take these kids and keep most of the bothers and sisters together, as well as encouraging contact with the older sibling! It says so much for you as a person that the kids background does not make you feel threatened!

Knowing where you come from and that you have a blood attachment to your family or origin is so important on a primal level I think.

Poor kids.

I wish the state could do more to help families in distress too, most agencies that could are incredibly overworked.

I just know you are a great Mom.!

[Apocalipstic]

I have been reading on how to heal, and I wonder if any of you have gone to an adption support group?

I wonder if speaking to some birth mothers who gave away their kids would make me heal or make me even more angry.

[bigbutchmistie]

When I was adopted they changed my middle name and my last name. They kept mine and my brother's first names. Our middle names have significant meaning. The foster parents that knew my adopted parents that introduced us. We took their names as middle names. I know what my born name is. When I met my real mom, and she and I developed a close relationship I wanted to change it back. After her death in 2001. I havent even thought about doing it again. Guess that would be something that I could do.

I am truly grateful for the fact that my brother and I were not separated. I dont know how I would have survived the years of abuse without him.

I went to therapy for years to get past my anger at them. Now, I dont feel badly regarding their choice of not having me in their lives.

I still have problems around this time of the year. Due to the fact I have flashbacks of being locked in my room for days and brought out only to clean up after their Christmas with my brother. And so many other abuse during this time of the year. Doctor's have said that is normal.

What a difference years make. I now have a relationship with the foster mom and dad who had to give up a chance of adopting us because she had been diagnosed with breast cancer. Recently, I finally came out to her. And even though she was religious she still is accepting. Its great to have that out on the table. And to know they accept.

I have often wondered if the reason I dont want kids or wanna be with someone with kids is because of my childhood.

We all have horror stories and while they are horrible and things are hurtful. Its made us the quality individuals we are today. And as someone stated earlier in a post any partner or person now or in the future proud to have us in their lives.

[Apocalipstic]

When I was adopted they changed my middle name and my last name. They kept mine and my brother's first names. Our middle names have significant meaning. The foster parents that knew my adopted parents that introduced us. We took their names as middle names. I know what my born name is. When I met my real mom, and she and I developed a close relationship I wanted to change it back. After her death in 2001. I havent even thought about doing it again. Guess that would be something that I could do.

I am truly grateful for the fact that my brother and I were not separated. I dont know how I would have survived the years of abuse without him.

I went to therapy for years to get past my anger at them. Now, I dont feel badly regarding their choice of not having me in their lives.

I still have problems around this time of the year. Due to the fact I have flashbacks of being locked in my room for days and brought out only to clean up after their Christmas with my brother. And so many other abuse during this time of the year. Doctor's have said that is normal.

What a difference years make. I now have a relationship with the foster mom and dad who had to give up a chance of adopting us because she had been diagnosed with breast cancer. Recently, I finally came out to her. And even though she was religious she still is accepting. Its great to have that out on the table. And to know they accept.

I have often wondered if the reason I dont want kids or wanna be with someone with kids is because of my childhood.

We all have horror stories and while they are horrible and things are hurtful. Its made us the quality individuals we are today. And as someone stated earlier in a post any partner or person now or in the future proud to have us in their lives.

So glad you got to grow up with your brother and know your name :)

Chritmas makes me really anxious, lot's of bad memories for me too.

[Linus]

Have you always known you were adopted?

Yes. I was adopted when I was 6 by my step-father. My mom and my bio father were each 18 when I was born. For them they were probably too young to have kids.

Have you met your birth parents?

Yes. I kinda grew up with my mom. when I was 12 she divorced my step-father and left me with him (he was an emotional and psychological abuser). She basically had no interest in me and this was particularly evident when she had my half-sister (hrmm.. can we can abandonment issues?!)

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

I was 6 when it happened so I kinda knew. What I didn't was the truth about my father. My mom had told me he was abusive and my step-father did his darnest to keep him and me apart when I turned 15 and my bio-father sent a letter to my step-father stating he wanted to see me and get to know me.

I didn't know anything and believed what others told me. When I turned 18, curiousity got the better of me and I met him. I was shocked how nice he was and how much we were alike (simple things like pushing up our glasses were done the same manner).

I know I'm kinda lucky in that I knew both parents but in some ways I kinda wish they had given me up to people who really wanted me and wouldn't give up on me.

[christie]

I do know my "first" name... Aimee Marie...I find it funny that when I was a teen and venturing into writing, I used "Aimee" as a pseudonym.

My parents told me that they never knew I was named by my birth mother or they wouldn't have changed it. They were instructed by their attorney to "pick out a name." My dad chose Christie...and spelled it. I've seen the paperwork... and yet, to this day, he spells it Christy. :wtf: LOL

In as far as a support group, I did attend one in Nashville many many moons ago. It was during the two years that I waited for Post Adoption Services to process my request for search.

Sigh... I wish I could say that I endorsed the whole support group thing. For me (and just for me) I think that its a way for me to avoid dealing with my own shit. I am a fixer by nature and find that I take on other's issues rather than focus on my own. I also have enormous issues with people I classify as "perpetual victims." I find that I have little patience with them. I found myself at this support group meeting, looking at people who had been dealing with their issues for what I consider to be far too long (decades and decades) and biting my lips off to keep from asking them just how long were they gonna be caught up in the woe is me mentality before they moved to the next step in the healing process.

Perhaps I shouldn't be quick to judge, but I know myself and I have a limited amount of energy to expend on others. I have to self monitor closely so that I don't get sucked into others' stuff and neglect my own.

This isn't a judgement on others nor do I want to derail by instigating/offending anyone. I recognize that we are all different, deal with things differently and on our own timeframes. This was merely a response to the support group question and my experience with it. Your mileage may vary.

On a happier note, this time next week, we will be back in Nashville for the holidays. Even as much as I relish the distance between my family and us, I do miss them and think that a three night/two day visit is just about the perfect length of time.

I hope that we all have a lovely holiday season, surrounded by people we love and who love us in return. Sometimes its not about the family you were born into, the family to whom you were adopted, but more about our chosen family. I'm grateful for each of you in my chosen virtual family. :cheer:

Christie

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I never knew what my real name would have been except my last name would have been Jung, that's about it.

Therapy, been there done that, ugh I don't like therapy, probably because I was being forced into it before I was even ready to divulge any of my feelings.

[Apocalipstic]

I do know my "first" name... Aimee Marie...I find it funny that when I was a teen and venturing into writing, I used "Aimee" as a pseudonym.

My parents told me that they never knew I was named by my birth mother or they wouldn't have changed it. They were instructed by their attorney to "pick out a name." My dad chose Christie...and spelled it. I've seen the paperwork... and yet, to this day, he spells it Christy. :wtf: LOL

In as far as a support group, I did attend one in Nashville many many moons ago. It was during the two years that I waited for Post Adoption Services to process my request for search.

Sigh... I wish I could say that I endorsed the whole support group thing. For me (and just for me) I think that its a way for me to avoid dealing with my own shit. I am a fixer by nature and find that I take on other's issues rather than focus on my own. I also have enormous issues with people I classify as "perpetual victims." I find that I have little patience with them. I found myself at this support group meeting, looking at people who had been dealing with their issues for what I consider to be far too long (decades and decades) and biting my lips off to keep from asking them just how long were they gonna be caught up in the woe is me mentality before they moved to the next step in the healing process.

Perhaps I shouldn't be quick to judge, but I know myself and I have a limited amount of energy to expend on others. I have to self monitor closely so that I don't get sucked into others' stuff and neglect my own.

This isn't a judgement on others nor do I want to derail by instigating/offending anyone. I recognize that we are all different, deal with things differently and on our own timeframes. This was merely a response to the support group question and my experience with it. Your mileage may vary.

On a happier note, this time next week, we will be back in Nashville for the holidays. Even as much as I relish the distance between my family and us, I do miss them and think that a three night/two day visit is just about the perfect length of time.

I hope that we all have a lovely holiday season, surrounded by people we love and who love us in return. Sometimes its not about the family you were born into, the family to whom you were adopted, but more about our chosen family. I'm grateful for each of you in my chosen virtual family. :cheer:

Christie


I get what you are saying about the support group. I went to one for PTSD back in the 80's and I remember sitting there wondering how some of the people let things get that bad...that sometimes you do have to pick up and walk into the fire and deal with your every day life, no matter what your fears are. I made some of the other members angry becasue I looked put together and had a job, no matter what was inside my head.

I do wonder if I talked to someone who gave her child away that I am not related to could make me understand how giving away a person seemed like the best plan. Cynthia tells me how things are in a small town, that I don't understand the pressure, that people lose business if their kid has an illegitimate child, that the child is marked for life and fo forth and all that makes me think is how much people SUCK.

I think I do undetstand in a way, growing up in the nest of the Southern Baptist with my parents as missionaries, always on stage....how much pressure there could be. But what makes the difference between a young mother who keeps her kid and one who gives her kid away?

What makes the difference between someone who goes ahead and uses birth control and one who doesn't. Yes, I get that it's easy for me to say that since I sleep with women.

I never knew what my real name would have been except my last name would have been Jung, that's about it.

Therapy, been there done that, ugh I don't like therapy, probably because I was being forced into it before I was even ready to divulge any of my feelings.

My paternal last name would have been Sullivan, and my maternal last name would have been Higgins. No clue about my first name.

For me therapy depends on whether I chose and like the therapist and how they listen to and hear me.

[bigbutchmistie]

Apocalipstic my adopted parents are Fundamental Independent Baptist Preachers LOL I spent summers as a teen with missionaries in Mexico

[christie]

I get what you are saying about the support group. I went to one for PTSD back in the 80's and I remember sitting there wondering how some of the people let things get that bad...that sometimes you do have to pick up and walk into the fire and deal with your every day life, no matter what your fears are. I made some of the other members angry becasue I looked put together and had a job, no matter what was inside my head.

I do wonder if I talked to someone who gave her child away that I am not related to could make me understand how giving away a person seemed like the best plan. Cynthia tells me how things are in a small town, that I don't understand the pressure, that people lose business if their kid has an illegitimate child, that the child is marked for life and fo forth and all that makes me think is how much people SUCK.

I think I do undetstand in a way, growing up in the nest of the Southern Baptist with my parents as missionaries, always on stage....how much pressure there could be. But what makes the difference between a young mother who keeps her kid and one who gives her kid away?

What makes the difference between someone who goes ahead and uses birth control and one who doesn't. Yes, I get that it's easy for me to say that since I sleep with women.




Jen -

I totally hear what you are saying in regard to the objectivity of an uninvolved third party with a similar experience. If my birth mother was more open, I would have us all meet for lunch or something; alas, in the 16 years I have known her, we have had ONE conversation about her giving me up. One.

Most of my information has come from my sister. Apparently, it was a decision that was made FOR her as she was 17.

In my resolution process, I always remembered a couple of things that I think are relevant even to your situation.

1970 was a different time (the year I was born). Choices for women in regard to their bodies and decisions were very limited. Even more so in the 60's when you were born. Educational opportunities were very limited. Most women who attended college were majoring in BM degrees - Before Marriage. Abortion wasn't legal until 1973 so access to the backalley abortions was not just expensive, it required a great amount of strength in overcoming the fears.

Birth control options were even more limited. The modern birth control pill wasn't introduced until 1960 and even then, most physicians wouldn't prescribe it unless the woman's husband agreed. If a husband said no, she had no choice. My motherinlaw's physician wanted to perform a hysterectomy for her after my brotherinlaw was born in the late 60's for her health. Jess's father would not give his "permission" and she was left with no choice but to have her health compromised.

Women weren't nearly as empowered as we are today. We have endless opportunities for us, even if its still that we work harder for less money and hope we dont land in a place with a glass ceiling. We have proven that we are independent, intelligent, singularly sensational entities without being in the "protective mantle of males." We have choices.

My maternal grandfather was a deacon in a southern baptist church. He was also a prominent businessman in Memphis. The shame of his daughter being pregnant out of wedlock was just not acceptable. She was sent to live with my great-aunt in Florida. Aunt Mary could not have children and begged and pleaded with B to give me to her. B was so very distraught she called her father every day to please let her come home. He finally relented and brought her back to Memphis and placed her in the Baptist Unwed Mothers Home.

What she endured there must have been unimaginable. To this day, she will drive 30 mins out of the way to even avoid driving down the same street as the Home. She has never spoken of her experience there; but she doesn't have to - its apparent enough to me.

Being forced to give me up certainly qualifies her in my mind as a PTSD candidate. It was so traumatic for her, she literally could not remember my birthdate - she knew it was one of three days.

She hasn't ever really dealt with her own issues surrounding my adoption. She probably never will. My only wish is that she has peace about it and knows that I hold no ill will towards her.

Most of you know that I have a 16 yr old son. When I found myself an "unwed mother" at 22 (that in itself is another thread on "issues" unto itself! LOL) I was faced with my choices... I could abort... I could give the baby up for adoption or I could keep him and make it work. I had options - options I feel that a lot of birth mothers never have. I made the decision I could best live with and never looked back.

Today, Bratboy's favorite game is to see just how quickly he can annoy the hell out of me with, "Mom. Mom. Mom. Mom. Mom.Mom.Mom.Mom," all the while tapping me on the arm... I think he times it.

Would he have been better off with a two parent home of lovely heterosexual parents who didn't have to work 60hr weeks when he was an infant just to keep him in diapers and formula? Maybe. I would like to think that I have given him as good, if not a better life than that imaginary couple could have. I dunno... but I do know that I wouldn't nearly be the person I am today.

I like to think that my birth mother made the decision she could best live with - given that she really didnt have a decision in it, I like to give her that power in my head... and to think that if she had been of my generation, she would have had the empowerment to believe she could have made a life for me.

Just my take on what it might have been like to try and be in their shoes.

Christie

[Dean Thoreau]

My grandaughter and I are the only birth children in the family. My wife, and all of our children are adopted.
I met several of my children's biological parents prior to my adoption of my children. My children were not the secret love children of famous actors and actresses, nor are they the missing heirs of the Kings and Queens. My children's birth parents were like every other birth parent in the entire world. Birth parents that had to make some very difficult choices.
Whether you were placed for adoption at birth or the age of 15; whether you were placed for adoption due to.................... or ..................... Several things ocurred:

1. You the birth child did not do anything wrong.
2. Your birth mother chose to give you life.
3. Your birth parents loved you so much they gave you up with the hope and dream that you would have a loving forever family. Whether they did so by signing a piece of paper, by court removal or by walking away or all of the above they made that choice not out of hate, or selfishness, or because you were to troublesome or because they didnt love you. They made that choice (spoken or unspoken) because they did love you so much that deep down in side they knew they could not properly care for themselves much less a child or another child. This decision is the most difficult decision a person faces in their entire life and it is one that no matter what is done, is second guessed for a lifetime.

Birth parents that you meet in adulthood may or may not ever tell you of the reasons because when the words are spoken 20 years later they sound kind of lame. A birth mother looks at you and says I couldnt take care of myself,,how could i care for an infant? and an adoptive childs inner feelings are not understanding but rather.....wtf....you are here now....obviously you survived...
What is not looked at is.....had the birth mother not have made the choice she did,,,there is a high possibility that neither of you would have survived.

Every person that has been placed for adoption is there for the same reason, your birth parents at that time were not capable of caring for themselves much less for an infant, a child. And they loved you enough that either by their consent or their actions you were placed with the hopes of a better environment for you to be nurtured and loved.

[Apocalipstic]

Apocalipstic my adopted parents are Fundamental Independent Baptist Preachers LOL I spent summers as a teen with missionaries in Mexico

Wow, I totally get the irony that you parents were preachers and missionaries, yet they shipped you out when things got rough. There was so mucg hypocrisy in my home growing up too. Hey, at least we got to travel, right :).

Jen -

I totally hear what you are saying in regard to the objectivity of an uninvolved third party with a similar experience. If my birth mother was more open, I would have us all meet for lunch or something; alas, in the 16 years I have known her, we have had ONE conversation about her giving me up. One.

Most of my information has come from my sister. Apparently, it was a decision that was made FOR her as she was 17.

In my resolution process, I always remembered a couple of things that I think are relevant even to your situation.

1970 was a different time (the year I was born). Choices for women in regard to their bodies and decisions were very limited. Even more so in the 60's when you were born. Educational opportunities were very limited. Most women who attended college were majoring in BM degrees - Before Marriage. Abortion wasn't legal until 1973 so access to the backalley abortions was not just expensive, it required a great amount of strength in overcoming the fears.

Birth control options were even more limited. The modern birth control pill wasn't introduced until 1960 and even then, most physicians wouldn't prescribe it unless the woman's husband agreed. If a husband said no, she had no choice. My motherinlaw's physician wanted to perform a hysterectomy for her after my brotherinlaw was born in the late 60's for her health. Jess's father would not give his "permission" and she was left with no choice but to have her health compromised.

Women weren't nearly as empowered as we are today. We have endless opportunities for us, even if its still that we work harder for less money and hope we dont land in a place with a glass ceiling. We have proven that we are independent, intelligent, singularly sensational entities without being in the "protective mantle of males." We have choices.

My maternal grandfather was a deacon in a southern baptist church. He was also a prominent businessman in Memphis. The shame of his daughter being pregnant out of wedlock was just not acceptable. She was sent to live with my great-aunt in Florida. Aunt Mary could not have children and begged and pleaded with B to give me to her. B was so very distraught she called her father every day to please let her come home. He finally relented and brought her back to Memphis and placed her in the Baptist Unwed Mothers Home.

What she endured there must have been unimaginable. To this day, she will drive 30 mins out of the way to even avoid driving down the same street as the Home. She has never spoken of her experience there; but she doesn't have to - its apparent enough to me.

Being forced to give me up certainly qualifies her in my mind as a PTSD candidate. It was so traumatic for her, she literally could not remember my birthdate - she knew it was one of three days.

She hasn't ever really dealt with her own issues surrounding my adoption. She probably never will. My only wish is that she has peace about it and knows that I hold no ill will towards her.

Most of you know that I have a 16 yr old son. When I found myself an "unwed mother" at 22 (that in itself is another thread on "issues" unto itself! LOL) I was faced with my choices... I could abort... I could give the baby up for adoption or I could keep him and make it work. I had options - options I feel that a lot of birth mothers never have. I made the decision I could best live with and never looked back.

Today, Bratboy's favorite game is to see just how quickly he can annoy the hell out of me with, "Mom. Mom. Mom. Mom. Mom.Mom.Mom.Mom," all the while tapping me on the arm... I think he times it.

Would he have been better off with a two parent home of lovely heterosexual parents who didn't have to work 60hr weeks when he was an infant just to keep him in diapers and formula? Maybe. I would like to think that I have given him as good, if not a better life than that imaginary couple could have. I dunno... but I do know that I wouldn't nearly be the person I am today.

I like to think that my birth mother made the decision she could best live with - given that she really didnt have a decision in it, I like to give her that power in my head... and to think that if she had been of my generation, she would have had the empowerment to believe she could have made a life for me.

Just my take on what it might have been like to try and be in their shoes.

Christie

Christie, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me. You seem so centered about it all. :)

I am so glad and proud of you for keeping your son!

I know her parents put pressure on her to give me up and also sent her to a home in Oklahoma City to have me. She said it was run by Methodist "nuns"? (I guess nun-like women?) I know it had to be terrible.

I know I am holding anger like a little kid over this, I just have never even really thought to deal with it, I always had more pressing issues (like my insane Father). Now that he is gone, maybe I can get all this behind me.

My grandaughter and I are the only birth children in the family. My wife, and all of our children are adopted.
I met several of my children's biological parents prior to my adoption of my children. My children were not the secret love children of famous actors and actresses, nor are they the missing heirs of the Kings and Queens. My children's birth parents were like every other birth parent in the entire world. Birth parents that had to make some very difficult choices.
Whether you were placed for adoption at birth or the age of 15; whether you were placed for adoption due to.................... or ..................... Several things ocurred:

1. You the birth child did not do anything wrong.
2. Your birth mother chose to give you life.
3. Your birth parents loved you so much they gave you up with the hope and dream that you would have a loving forever family. Whether they did so by signing a piece of paper, by court removal or by walking away or all of the above they made that choice not out of hate, or selfishness, or because you were to troublesome or because they didnt love you. They made that choice (spoken or unspoken) because they did love you so much that deep down in side they knew they could not properly care for themselves much less a child or another child. This decision is the most difficult decision a person faces in their entire life and it is one that no matter what is done, is second guessed for a lifetime.

Birth parents that you meet in adulthood may or may not ever tell you of the reasons because when the words are spoken 20 years later they sound kind of lame. A birth mother looks at you and says I couldnt take care of myself,,how could i care for an infant? and an adoptive childs inner feelings are not understanding but rather.....wtf....you are here now....obviously you survived...
What is not looked at is.....had the birth mother not have made the choice she did,,,there is a high possibility that neither of you would have survived.

Every person that has been placed for adoption is there for the same reason, your birth parents at that time were not capable of caring for themselves much less for an infant, a child. And they loved you enough that either by their consent or their actions you were placed with the hopes of a better environment for you to be nurtured and loved.

I get what you are saying and I so admire you for what you are doing!

It is hard for me to see that they gave me away out of love, becasue of the incredibly abusive situation I ended up in, but I am working on it and hearing from people like you and Christie really is helping.

Thank you both!

[bigbutchmistie]

YES soooooo much hypocrisy :) And yes sooooo glad for the travels and experiences I had. Its part of why I am who I am today. I've seen things few people in U.S. Ever do... As I'm sure so have you :)

[Apocalipstic]

YES soooooo much hypocrisy :) And yes sooooo glad for the travels and experiences I had. Its part of why I am who I am today. I've seen things few people in U.S. Ever do... As I'm sure so have you :)

Very true!

I am guessing you speak English and Spanish fluently?

There are good parts, but just always this feeling of not belonging anywhere. Always on the outside, always the new kid.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Honestly, to me, giving away your kids because you can't take care of them properly IS NOT love of any form, it's called being stupid and selfish. I am grateful I am here but at times no due to the amount of anger that boils in my bones about the reasons why so many birthparents do what they do.

It kinda goes back to the post where I said some people need to be sterilized and castrated, both my birth parents should have had this happen, than maybe myself and my siblings wouldn't be so fucked up like we are. I hold alot of resentment and animosity towards my birth mother and some to my father, if you don't wanna be a parent don't be a fucktard, wear a rubber or use some form of protection.

IMO closed adoptions have done more harm than good.

[Apocalipstic]

Honestly, to me, giving away your kids because you can't take care of them properly IS NOT love of any form, it's called being stupid and selfish. I am grateful I am here but at times no due to the amount of anger that boils in my bones about the reasons why so many birthparents do what they do.

It kinda goes back to the post where I said some people need to be sterilized and castrated, both my birth parents should have had this happen, than maybe myself and my siblings wouldn't be so fucked up like we are. I hold alot of resentment and animosity towards my birth mother and some to my father, if you don't wanna be a parent don't be a fucktard, wear a rubber or use some form of protection.

IMO closed adoptions have done more harm than good.


I think a more open scenario where the child knows where they come from and has some sense of heritage is best.

Those of us from closed adoptions have no clue what our past is, no sense of clan, or familial ties.

I get that in 1963 things were bad for women, but when I finally did meet her she told me her parents said she had to give me up if she wanted to go to the prom. They she married someone else shortly after and had 2 kids. She has a master's degree. In my case it was a convenience thing, not a survival thing.

I do know that still the rhetoric is that to say that parents gave us up out of love and should be happy and thankful and beholden for being adopted out of misery. I have heard it all my life.

I think I am angry at society in general for believing that children are disposable and will forget and can be given away when they are at their most defenceless to who knows what. Having sex is a natural thing, and I wish I lived in a world where children are treasured and not looked down on for being illegitimate. Its just insane to me that this is how society works.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I think a more open scenario where the child knows where they come from and has some sense of heritage is best.

Those of us from closed adoptions have no clue what our past is, no sense of clan, or familial ties.

I get that in 1963 things were bad for women, but when I finally did meet her she told me her parents said she had to give me up if she wanted to go to the prom. They she married someone else shortly after and had 2 kids. She has a master's degree. In my case it was a convenience thing, not a survival thing.

I do know that still the rhetoric is that to say that parents gave us up out of love and should be happy and thankful and beholden for being adopted out of misery. I have heard it all my life.

I think I am angry at society in general for believing that children are disposable and will forget and can be given away when they are at their most defenceless to who knows what. Having sex is a natural thing, and I wish I lived in a world where children are treasured and not looked down on for being illegitimate. Its just insane to me that this is how society works.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I think a more open scenario where the child knows where they come from and has some sense of heritage is best.

Those of us from closed adoptions have no clue what our past is, no sense of clan, or familial ties.

I get that in 1963 things were bad for women, but when I finally did meet her she told me her parents said she had to give me up if she wanted to go to the prom. They she married someone else shortly after and had 2 kids. She has a master's degree. In my case it was a convenience thing, not a survival thing.

I do know that still the rhetoric is that to say that parents gave us up out of love and should be happy and thankful and beholden for being adopted out of misery. I have heard it all my life.

I think I am angry at society in general for believing that children are disposable and will forget and can be given away when they are at their most defenceless to who knows what. Having sex is a natural thing, and I wish I lived in a world where children are treasured and not looked down on for being illegitimate. Its just insane to me that this is how society works.


That too is a thorn in my side, thinking kids are disposable as well as animals.

Society sucks and always has

[Apocalipstic]

That too is a thorn in my side, thinking kids are disposable as well as animals.

Society sucks and always has

Yeah animals too. People need to get their pets FIXED.

It makes me furious that when someone is pregnant STILL, the answer people give is ohh don't have an abortion, have the baby and put it up for adoption. People need to know that they are placing a defenceless child in danger.

Yes, some babies end up in good homes, but so many end up on death row or commit suicide, or even kill their adoptive parents. Is it worth it?

Use birth control.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yeah animals too. People need to get their pets FIXED.

It makes me furious that when someone is pregnant STILL, the answer people give is ohh don't have an abortion, have the baby and put it up for adoption. People need to know that they are placing a defenceless child in danger.

Yes, some babies end up in good homes, but so many end up on death row or commit suicide, or even kill their adoptive parents. Is it worth it?

Use birth control.

Agreed get your damn pets fixed... sheesh it don't take much to get them fixed... humans on the other hand you have to have a valid reason to get them fixed.

I recall a story about an adoptive girl who killed her adopted mother over a boyfriend at school. WTF.

People should think with their heads when it comes to having kids, why do you think I have never had kids?

[Apocalipstic]

Agreed get your damn pets fixed... sheesh it don't take much to get them fixed... humans on the other hand you have to have a valid reason to get them fixed.

I recall a story about an adoptive girl who killed her adopted mother over a boyfriend at school. WTF.

People should think with their heads when it comes to having kids, why do you think I have never had kids?


I never really wanted to have kids either.

I read that a huge percentage of people who kill both parents are adopted. They don't want parents looking to adopt to know this stuff.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I never really wanted to have kids either.

I read that a huge percentage of people who kill both parents are adopted. They don't want parents looking to adopt to know this stuff.


I never had kids because I am not fond of children, granted I love my nieces and nephews but to send them home all spoiled and have my siblings mad at me is way better than having one of my own on my coat tails 24/7.



Yes there is a big percentage of adopted people who are killers, etc. I think Superfemme posted about that on another page.

[Dean Thoreau]

My son john was removed from his birth parents when he was 11 months old...for severe neglect and abuse...he weighed less at 11 months of age then when he was born....

He was hsopitalized then placed in a foster home......with 11 other children...when he turned 2 he was still very sickly and a doctor thought...he would test him for HIV....sure enough he was positive....
he was then removed from the foster home and placed with me for adoption. at the age of 2 3/4..

at the age of 7 he died....

I had the opportunity to meet john's birth parents at the funeral home.....(I had asked my adoption agency to notify the birth parents that he had died and said they could come to the funeral home if they desired..they were both incarcerated..so special arrangements were made and i decided i wanted to meet these horrible horrendous people..that gave john AIDs, that abused him,,,that starved him..did all those things...that ended up resulting in his very premature death....


I was not exactly sure what I was going to do when i saw them...prison guards and police there or not...in my mind i planned on ripping them to shreds....verbally, physically and shaking them till i got a answer out of them that explained WHY.....How...WHY...and after i got the answers i figured i would just rip them from limb to limb ....

Well in walked two tiny frail people,with handcuffs on...,who were very scared..who were both obviously not well, the guards etc allowed them to come into the room where john's body casket was...and gave us some privacy...

these two people who i hated, despised desired to just rip apart with my bare hands were in the same room as i...
they looked at me...i motioned ot them the direction of johns casket and they walked over knelt down and with handcuffs blessed themselves and viewed their birth child..... spent a few moments and then his birth mom came over to me and said...

"Im sorry your son died."

I was a bit taken back by the comment...the birth father came over and said the same thing.
then the three of us sat down and talked. for a while...
i did not kill them
i did not beat them
and after that day i could not hate them...

There are some things that will never have answers.....because the people involved truly do not know the answers....no I did not ask them Why did u abuse him.....and neither fo them offered an explanation because is there any explanation other then SICKNESS ....that would explain it....

There is nothing an 11 month old child could do to deserve abuse, starvation....so there is no answer why......other than sickness..not physcical sickness but severe emotional illness..



I did forgive them
I also thank them because yes I thanked them.... due to their carelessness and unhealthy habits they contracted a disease that was passed on to john in utero....
yes they did a horrible thing from the time he was born until he was 11 months old.....

But, in selfishness I must say..Thank You....my life was changed by the fact that he came into my life.
My life was touched in such a remarkable way by those almost 5 years that he lived on this earth and called me mom.
My heart became fuller and I shall never forget or stop missing my son john... did his birth parents love him....yes...they did....could they care for themselves or him NO they could not...
were they capable of caring for themselves or him when he was removed..no they were not...
it was not because they had aids it is and was because they were SICK...they had numerous sicknesses AIDS was the least of them;
they had the sickness of addiciton, the sickness of emotinal instability, the sickeness of poverty, the sickeness of inability to disern right from wrong...the sickness of the inability to control their own behavior....
Those things require a great deal of medical attention...and those sicknesses do not allow one to be capable of caring for a baby or a child.

See where everyone gets hung up is on the " love" isuue.

love exists..it is the sicknesses that clouds the love from being seen.

When you say a woman takes the "easy" way out when a child is placed for adoption....if that is how you convince yourself and contend with the anger you have regarding your birth parent.

It is ok to be angry at them for...choosing to give you life.....
but please remember you deserve to be alive!

It is ok to be angry at them for abusing you,....
but please remember you deserved and still deserve to be free of abuse.

It is ok to be angry at them cause you question their love...
but please remember you deserved and do deserve to be loved.

it is ok to feel anyway you need to feel and do feel...
but please remember you deserve the right not to use that as an excuse to not be the best person you can possibly be!

[christie]

I get being angry at how society sees children as disposable... I think as a whole we tend to see most things as disposable... everything from kleenex to relationships.

I understand how comfortable it can be to live with that anger just below the surface, as your driving force. I know how scary it is to start to let go of that anger and learn to live without it. Its easy to start the process and then slip back into the anger.

I spent many, many years of my son's early life being angry at his father for his lack of parenting... emotionally, or financially.

My bio sister's husband made a very profound statement to me once while I was visiting them in Memphis. My sister was in a complete tailspin about Bratboy's father and we were like two vultures picking at the remains of his character. Fueled by Jim Beam, we had been feasting on the anger for hours. This very humble man from Mississippi who is as quiet as can be looked at us when we paused to take a breath and said, "Do ya'll think that S (my son's father) really gives a shit that you are angry? Do you think he is losing sleep over it? Do you think he has just spent the last two hours wailing about how sorry he is you are angry?"

Fuck. At that moment, I KNEW just how right my dear brotherinlaw was... S didn't give a shit... the only person I was affecting was ME by carrying all that bitterness around. I was the one losing sleep and shooting my BP up...

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong in their anger. Its a perfectly valid feeling and each person has the absolute right to feel that way.

What I am saying is that usually the person/persons we are angry at could give less than a shit that we are angry... WE are the only ones who care...

I once heard someone say, "Its not a fear of failure that keeps us from trying... its the fear of success." I think that's pretty smart. I've never been afraid to fail... but what the hell do I do after I succeed?? I think its a whole lot easier to be angry and negative than to make peace with something this profound and to move forward, positive, hopeful and into the light.

For me, I'd rather risk success. I'd rather not participate in what I call nonconsensual energy exchange... I'd rather impose my sometimes annoying positive demeanor on someone than to draw them into the negativity they've not asked for...

Christie

[Apocalipstic]

I am actually pretty successful and really did not realize I was upset about this until last week. :)

So I am not really wallowing in my anger nor ignoring my life. I have a great life...however, my great life involves PTSD and some other health issues that are tied to early trauma when I was too young to make decisions for myself.

I know no one gives a shit about my pain really (or anyone else's). I totally get that.

Would it be better if I did not discuss here? Is it drawing people into a subject best left alone?

But then its back to secrets and lies.

[christie]

Jen - I hope you dont think that I was saying that this isnt a place to discuss this or any other issue one might have... You mentioned that I seemed centered around my adoption issues and I was just putting out there what my experiences to this point have been in coming to that centered place.

Its a LOT of work... hard... and I would hope that you know that I am not dismissing nor trivializing your pain. If anything, I would rather wrap you in a hug and tell you that I understand just how deep the hurt is... just how dumbfounding it can be to try and understand how birth parents could inflict this pain and then carry on with their lives as if they never gave us another thought.

Please don't stop posting on this thread. Jess was just telling me last night how touching its been for hym to read my experiences here - we've never really spoken in detail about my being adopted... it just never really came up.

I've probably been more personal about very intimate details of that part of me here than I ever have on any other thread. For the first time, it didnt feel too vulnerable to put details of all that compile Christie out there to the general virtual public.

I think that if we can find some sliver of something that resonates with us from sharing our experiences, its worth it...

I'm sorry that my words weren't taken as I had intended. It certainly wasn't my intent to silence you.

Christie

[Apocalipstic]

Jen - I hope you dont think that I was saying that this isnt a place to discuss this or any other issue one might have... You mentioned that I seemed centered around my adoption issues and I was just putting out there what my experiences to this point have been in coming to that centered place.

Its a LOT of work... hard... and I would hope that you know that I am not dismissing nor trivializing your pain. If anything, I would rather wrap you in a hug and tell you that I understand just how deep the hurt is... just how dumbfounding it can be to try and understand how birth parents could inflict this pain and then carry on with their lives as if they never gave us another thought.

Please don't stop posting on this thread. Jess was just telling me last night how touching its been for hym to read my experiences here - we've never really spoken in detail about my being adopted... it just never really came up.

I've probably been more personal about very intimate details of that part of me here than I ever have on any other thread. For the first time, it didnt feel too vulnerable to put details of all that compile Christie out there to the general virtual public.

I think that if we can find some sliver of something that resonates with us from sharing our experiences, its worth it...

I'm sorry that my words weren't taken as I had intended. It certainly wasn't my intent to silence you.

Christie

:) Thank you for your quick response! :) a hug would rock!

I think my Dad's death has me thinking about all sorts of things I have pushed down over the years. I was focusing on work and life and just did not have time of desire to dig all this up. Now it's affecting my health so I need to take care of it.

I totally get what you and Dean are saying about not making excuses for myself beacsue this happened, and I don't. I do think that things ignored weigh on our health and it's good to process it.

Thank you so much for sharing what you have and everyone else for sharing what they have too.

I remember before I met my bio-parents I looked at people when I walked down the street and wondered "is she my mother?", kind of like in that DR. Seuss book. Now I have met her and though I wish she had been sorry I have to look at the situation she was in. I was still a total kid when I was 17 and have no idea what I woud have done if I had been pregnant. I was frightened to death of my father, and would have done anything to keep him from finding out. Luckily I am not into sleeping with men. :)

I know it is really easy for me to say that I would not put a kid up for adoption. It is pretty damn unlikely that I would have ever gotten pregant. laugh. (picturing really corroded star in the East)

Our society is so incredibly judgemental, it really freaks me out.

[bigbutchmistie]

Very true!

I am guessing you speak English and Spanish fluently?

There are good parts, but just always this feeling of not belonging anywhere. Always on the outside, always the new kid.


Actually I dont speak Spanish fluently. I understand some. :) Just dont speak it. We had to let the missionaries talk to the people. Weird. I know.

As far as having kids. Ya know, I never have wanted to have them. And in dating it sooo hard to find a girly girl who doesnt want them either. Oh well. I know there has still gotta be a single femme out there who doesnt want them :)

[bigbutchmistie]

I never got a chance to ask my mom when she was living why my brother and I were adopted together. I know what my grandmother told me before she passed. She said that my mom was in an abusive relationship with my father and agreed to have her rights taken away with my father's if my brother and I could be adopted. Neither set of grandparents would raise us. So we were adopted together. I know we lived in foster homes together for years and came across the couple who were the ones to introduce us to our adopted parents.

I loved those people like they were my parents. Growing up I was refused contact with them. We saw them once in a while years would go by. When I was 18 and I moved up here to meet my real parents the original foster parents played a role in it.

It was very emotional. My father is still the same piece of shit he was when I was little. However my mom and I developed a really close relationship.
While my brother was still living at home with my adopted parents he wasnt allowed to see me or talk to me. Since I was told I was never welcome. He wasnt allowed to have any contact with me while he was under their roof. It tore me up. He and I were really close growing up. I watched my biological mom cry on a daily basis because she felt she made a mistake. One she could never take back.

I know she used to say when she had gotten her life together soon after we were adopted she became a cop because she wanted to search for my brother and I and find us and kidnap us back LOL and no one would have ever found us.

I watched her emotional agony and never really understood how much she hurt over that. I know that the day we were taken away finally by the state she was in the kitchen with her mom my grandmother who had a brain anurism and died instantly.

I have always admired her strength. To lose your kids and your mom in the same day. Most people would be locked away for the rest of their lives. My mom has said she kicked in survival mode at that point. She left my abusive father was a cop and the last few years of her life owned her own beauty salon.

I know in her heart she felt she didnt do the right thing giving up custody. She always would say if she had to do it again. She'd left my father and done whatever it took to raise a family. Up until the day she died she apologized to me she felt she couldnt forgive herself.

I was young enough that growing up I didnt remember her and as I explained before the only time I heard about her was to be told I would amount to nothing but trash like her.

When I met her it was hard on us at first. We didnt have a relationship. We fought and argued and I blamed her for all the abuse I encountered daily with the adopted parents. It wasnt until close to her death that we obtained a really close relationship. And it was an ex that helped me do it.

I guess the thing that I have never really understood is how I still feel close to the foster parents that I had before I was adopted. My name sake.
We are building a close relationship and recently came out to them and they were accepting. And they have the pics of me when I was little. And laugh and tell me about things that I did. Just like a mom or dad would.

What a difference 30 years makes. I dont feel sorry for myself because of all I had to endure. It has made me the person I am today and the better person I will be in the future.

[Greyson]

You have to have a licence to fish, but anyone can have a baby.

Crazy isn't it?

Tell me about it. I have often thought the same thought or similar. And so many are afraid that the Queers are going to destroy the children? I am not adopted but one of my ex girlfriends and now a very good friend/family she is adopted. I have seen her struggle for years not knowing. Thank you to all of you for sharing your stories with us.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

On the topic of good and bad genes...

anyone think they got the bad genes?

[FeminineAllure]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/labnotes/archive/2008/06/10/good-gene-bad-gene-it-depends.aspx

[Bit]

I know no one gives a shit about my pain really (or anyone else's). I totally get that.


Two words: STOP THAT! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}} What you really know--and know from experience--is that people DO care about you, about your pain, about your life.

Hon, when a person is hurting like all hell every little thing makes it worse, and it's so easy to believe that people are telling one to just go away... but then, maybe that's an echo of the first "go away"?

I think it would probably be impossible to believe that a birth parent had one's best interests at heart if the adoptive parents turn out to be abusive. I know it seems like the world's biggest injustice. I know that a prom seems totally insignificant compared to a lifetime of torture...

...and I remember the 1960s....when a man owned--literally, like a car or a house--a man owned his daughter and her body in the US. Permission to go to the prom might have been a reward for your mother's compliance, Jen, but you would have been given up no matter what, because your mother had no legal rights whatever and would have had none no matter what age she might have been. A woman was her father's legal property, or that of his male heir, until she married and became her husband's legal property.

Your mother had no choice, Jen, even though it sounded to you like she did. She had no choice. It was a completely different world. She might today mention the prom casually as if it were important, but back then girls knew when they did and didn't have a choice. The prom was a sop, something to pacify her so he didn't have to endure her grief and pain.

(The strength of the Women's Libbers to endure society's rage in the 1960s just blows me away... I don't know that I could have been that strong. I do know that they wouldn't recognize this world which is our legacy from them, except as it lived in their hearts: that no woman should be the property of anyone but herself. Goddess, how the world has changed!)

So Jen, I understand that you have been doubly betrayed--but I believe it was your grandfather who betrayed you the first time, not your mother.

For what it's worth, darlin, I understand about your father's death finally letting you be free enough to deal with this buried pain. I'm sure it caught you completely off guard--things coming up after someone dies have caught me off guard too *wry smile*--and I think you'll be able to deal with it and process it in your own time, but oy! doesn't it make life uncomfortable in the meantime?!

There's this book I am once AGAIN trying to read, called Legacy of the Heart by Wayne Muller. He's a minister who spent years working with people who survived abusive childhoods. I usually have to stop partway through it because it brings up such ferocious anger in me, and that interferes with my relationship with my mother. But this last time when I started it, I realized that each time I come back to it, I've made a lot of progress in dealing with my childhood pain and anger.

If you can handle the fact that the book is written by a minister, I highly recommend it. He periodically quotes from several faiths, mostly Christian and Buddhist but sometimes others, but he doesn't seem to need to preach the necessity of belief at anyone---tis more like offering reassurance to those who need spiritual backup---and he seems to really understand what it does to people to have lived through such difficult lives, to have suffered so enormously as children.

[~Red~]

I was adopted when I was 4mo's old, before that I was in foster care. From what I can gather, my birth mother was young, unmarried and Jewish.The father was Cree/Scottish, not a good combination. The young woman was pressured into giving me up because of racial issues on the side of the birth mother's family. Back in the 60's having a child that is part native was seriously frowned upon.

So here I am. I knew I was adopted very early, my folks didn't want me to have any issues. My cousin is adopted as well, and is bitter and a very angry person.

I did start a search for my birth mother when I was 20, as I was having some health issues that could be due to genetics. So I did get a hold of her, our conversation was pretty brief, I found out my genetic history including my own cultural background. I was very grateful for that, but neither of us wanted to persue a relationship - her for the fact she wanted that part of her past to remain so and I because she had no right to be.

My own hell started after my adoption. From the time I can remember, I was verbally attacked and threatened to be sent back the agency. The older I got the assaults became physical as well. I ended up being a very angry teen and young adult. I had major abandonment issues which have only dissipated in the last decade or so.

What I am mad at is that these agencies don't check deep enough into the prospective parents even to this day. It should not be a given that every person has the right to have/adopt a chld. I know a person who actually sued the agency and settled out of court. My was through the gov't and there was no way to get recourse.

On the flip side of all of this, I have become a kind, loving and very affectionate person. I make sure the folks in my life know how important and loved they are. I wouldn't be the person I am today I don't think without my childhood being so messed up.

~Red~

[bigbutchmistie]

I agree Red I'm the same way what I went through has made me the kind loving really affectionate person I am today.

I.want everyone in my life to know how much I love and care about each and everyone of them. :)

Great Post

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I got the "bad" genes for sure, I don't rely on much of the scientific spew.



FA's article to me seems to talk more about parents trying to mess with nature when it comes to "splicing" out bad and good genes.

http://www.amfor.net/acs/

Artcile on ACS- Adopted Child Syndrome

[FeminineAllure]

The point I am trying to make about bad genes vs good genes is for example...

I have Bipolar. I was finally diagnosed at 21. Was that bad gene with me from birth?

Yes. Did me or my family know this? No. If we had all known my medical history regaurding this would it have mattered? Perhaps in getting a quicker diagnosis.
So, I take medication and have been hospital free and stabilized for over 10 years now!
If I had not been adopted would I still have bipolar? Yes. Would that have made any significant difference in the quality of my life? I don't think so.

I have some other medical issues I am dealing with. Are they genetic or lifestyle? I can choose to eat better nutritionally which would lower my risk factors to certain predispositions. Etc...So is it lifestyle that plays with some factors or solely genetics? I believe a bit of both. But some things are my responsibility such as taking my medications to prevent symptoms. Not because I am adopted.

As far as the article shared
I appreciate you sharing it but don't agree one bit about adoptees having more:

conflict with authority (for example truancy);
preoccupation with excessive fantasy;
pathological lying;
stealing;
running away (from home, school, group homes, situations);
learning difficulties, under-achievement, over-achievement;
lack of impulse control (acting out, promiscuity, sex crimes);
fascination with fire, fire-setting
"In twenty-five years of practice I have seen hundreds of adoptees, most adopted in infancy. In case after case, I have observed what I have come to call the Adopted Child Syndrome, which may include pathological lying, stealing, truancy, manipulation, shallowness of attachment, provocation of parents and other authorities, threatened or actual running away, promiscuity, learning problems, fire-setting, and increasingly serious antisocial behavior, often leading to court custody. It may include an extremely negative or grandiose self-image, low frustration tolerance, and an absence of normal guilt or anxiety."

It sounds like his practice was filled with sociopaths by the traits he is describing.
Do adoptees have a higher incidence of becoming a sociopath then non adoptees in mainstream society? Yes. But is it nature over nurture? I believe we can change our destiny. Some factors are a choice. Let's look at alcoholism. Is it genetic? Yes. So if an alcoholic passes the bad genes of alcoholism to a child will that child whether biological or adopted have a higher predisposition to becoming an alcoholic? Yes. But there are still choices and help available to adoptees as well as biological children. And if this person learns something very beneficial from having the bad gene of alcoholism that perhaps changes others lives is that gene truly a bad one?

I will just end my rambling with two quotes I live by:

For all of the pain, abuse, anger experienced by some including myself who are adopted
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free, and discover that the prisoner was you". -Lewis B Smedes, "Forgiveness - The Power to Change the Past"

If I did not learn to forgive my biological parents, my adoptive parents I would be and remain the prisoner not them.

"I've learned that our background and circumstances
May have influenced who we are,
But we are responsible for who we become."

James Rhinehart



"My life is my message"...... Your life is your message.:rose:
Mahatma Gandhi

[NotAnAverageGuy]

You may not agree but for many adoptees out there who do agree with the article might tell you so. I am being one of those.

I am bi polar as well, I have a MAJOR issue with authority and always have, I have stolen from family and friends, learning difficulties, impulse control issues and have been known to set fires as a child.

Sociopath? Me, prolly no doubt, do I care no, not in the least bit, my siblings would be considered sociopaths as well.

Do I think most of those things you pointed at are choices, No I do not. I have my own reasons and my real family being the one reason I do not belive in choices.

[FeminineAllure]

You may not agree but for many adoptees out there who do agree with the article might tell you so. I am being one of those.

I am bi polar as well, I have a MAJOR issue with authority and always have, I have stolen from family and friends, learning difficulties, impulse control issues and have been known to set fires as a child.

Sociopath? Me, prolly no doubt, do I care no, not in the least bit, my siblings would be considered sociopaths as well.

Do I think most of those things you pointed at are choices, No I do not. I have my own reasons and my real family being the one reason I do not belive in choices.

Many adoptees would agree with the article you shared and many would not as well. It is interesting you are comfortable admitting you are a sociopath when so many who are try so hard to conceal it.
Bottom line is we agree to disagree.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Many adoptees would agree with the article you shared and many would not as well. It is interesting you are comfortable admitting you are a sociopath when so many who are try so hard to conceal it.
Bottom line is we agree to disagree.

Yes I know some with agree and disagree

Why lie about what many doctors and such have told me and my family? I am not the type to pussyfoot around or hide my feelings on things, I am blunt on many things and stand my ground. Why others try to so hard to conceal something is beyond me, if you keep hiding, things get worse.

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you to everyone who has posted, I need to go back and read it all and will respond, but first I want to respond to this post and all the posts one at a time. :)

I never got a chance to ask my mom when she was living why my brother and I were adopted together. I know what my grandmother told me before she passed. She said that my mom was in an abusive relationship with my father and agreed to have her rights taken away with my father's if my brother and I could be adopted. Neither set of grandparents would raise us. So we were adopted together. I know we lived in foster homes together for years and came across the couple who were the ones to introduce us to our adopted parents.

I loved those people like they were my parents. Growing up I was refused contact with them. We saw them once in a while years would go by. When I was 18 and I moved up here to meet my real parents the original foster parents played a role in it.

It was very emotional. My father is still the same piece of shit he was when I was little. However my mom and I developed a really close relationship.
While my brother was still living at home with my adopted parents he wasnt allowed to see me or talk to me. Since I was told I was never welcome. He wasnt allowed to have any contact with me while he was under their roof. It tore me up. He and I were really close growing up. I watched my biological mom cry on a daily basis because she felt she made a mistake. One she could never take back.

I know she used to say when she had gotten her life together soon after we were adopted she became a cop because she wanted to search for my brother and I and find us and kidnap us back LOL and no one would have ever found us.

I watched her emotional agony and never really understood how much she hurt over that. I know that the day we were taken away finally by the state she was in the kitchen with her mom my grandmother who had a brain anurism and died instantly.

I have always admired her strength. To lose your kids and your mom in the same day. Most people would be locked away for the rest of their lives. My mom has said she kicked in survival mode at that point. She left my abusive father was a cop and the last few years of her life owned her own beauty salon.

I know in her heart she felt she didnt do the right thing giving up custody. She always would say if she had to do it again. She'd left my father and done whatever it took to raise a family. Up until the day she died she apologized to me she felt she couldnt forgive herself.

I was young enough that growing up I didnt remember her and as I explained before the only time I heard about her was to be told I would amount to nothing but trash like her.

When I met her it was hard on us at first. We didnt have a relationship. We fought and argued and I blamed her for all the abuse I encountered daily with the adopted parents. It wasnt until close to her death that we obtained a really close relationship. And it was an ex that helped me do it.

I guess the thing that I have never really understood is how I still feel close to the foster parents that I had before I was adopted. My name sake.
We are building a close relationship and recently came out to them and they were accepting. And they have the pics of me when I was little. And laugh and tell me about things that I did. Just like a mom or dad would.

What a difference 30 years makes. I dont feel sorry for myself because of all I had to endure. It has made me the person I am today and the better person I will be in the future.

Thanks for sharing Misty, we have a lot in common actually. My
biological Father became a cop in Dallas and may still be. My biograndfather on my mother's side was the sheriff of their town, I think it was Hobart, OK. My adopted mother, whom I loved more than I can put into words, died allegedly of an aneurysm (though that is not what her death certificate says).

I am so glad that you got to meet your mother and that the meeting went well, and even more glad that you seem to have a foster family who still cares about you and accepts you for who you are.

Do you get to see your brother now? How cruel to not let you see him. My heart goes out to you both.

[Apocalipstic]

On the topic of good and bad genes...

anyone think they got the bad genes?

I think that adoption in itself can casue so many problems, Its difficult to see what the genes would have created if we had not been adopted.

Have I had lots of mental problems in my life? YES.

[Apocalipstic]

Two words: STOP THAT! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}} What you really know--and know from experience--is that people DO care about you, about your pain, about your life.

Hon, when a person is hurting like all hell every little thing makes it worse, and it's so easy to believe that people are telling one to just go away... but then, maybe that's an echo of the first "go away"?

I think it would probably be impossible to believe that a birth parent had one's best interests at heart if the adoptive parents turn out to be abusive. I know it seems like the world's biggest injustice. I know that a prom seems totally insignificant compared to a lifetime of torture...

...and I remember the 1960s....when a man owned--literally, like a car or a house--a man owned his daughter and her body in the US. Permission to go to the prom might have been a reward for your mother's compliance, Jen, but you would have been given up no matter what, because your mother had no legal rights whatever and would have had none no matter what age she might have been. A woman was her father's legal property, or that of his male heir, until she married and became her husband's legal property.

Your mother had no choice, Jen, even though it sounded to you like she did. She had no choice. It was a completely different world. She might today mention the prom casually as if it were important, but back then girls knew when they did and didn't have a choice. The prom was a sop, something to pacify her so he didn't have to endure her grief and pain.

(The strength of the Women's Libbers to endure society's rage in the 1960s just blows me away... I don't know that I could have been that strong. I do know that they wouldn't recognize this world which is our legacy from them, except as it lived in their hearts: that no woman should be the property of anyone but herself. Goddess, how the world has changed!)

So Jen, I understand that you have been doubly betrayed--but I believe it was your grandfather who betrayed you the first time, not your mother.

For what it's worth, darlin, I understand about your father's death finally letting you be free enough to deal with this buried pain. I'm sure it caught you completely off guard--things coming up after someone dies have caught me off guard too *wry smile*--and I think you'll be able to deal with it and process it in your own time, but oy! doesn't it make life uncomfortable in the meantime?!

There's this book I am once AGAIN trying to read, called Legacy of the Heart (http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Heart-Spiritual-Advantage-Childhood/dp/0671797840) by Wayne Muller. He's a minister who spent years working with people who survived abusive childhoods. I usually have to stop partway through it because it brings up such ferocious anger in me, and that interferes with my relationship with my mother. But this last time when I started it, I realized that each time I come back to it, I've made a lot of progress in dealing with my childhood pain and anger.

If you can handle the fact that the book is written by a minister, I highly recommend it. He periodically quotes from several faiths, mostly Christian and Buddhist but sometimes others, but he doesn't seem to need to preach the necessity of belief at anyone---tis more like offering reassurance to those who need spiritual backup---and he seems to really understand what it does to people to have lived through such difficult lives, to have suffered so enormously as children.

Bit, you may be the most kind woman I know. Hugs.

You are right, in fact I remember my adopted dad telling me in the 60's that he had complete control of me and could do whatever he wanted to to me and no one could or would do anything. No one would believe me, becasue he was a missionary and evangelist. Yes, it had to be my grandparents...which still is creepy, but maybe not as?

I will get that book. Thank you!

I do feel kind of silly at 46 going through this and it is hard to hear things like it's beating a dead horse or that they loved me sooo much, they gave me up, which I think is crap. It really never occurred to me that some of my issues were from adoption. I thought it was all my dad and being queer.

I don't want anyone to think that I have used being adopted as an excuse not to excell...in fact, I have excellent coping skills...while still having health and mental health issues steming from trauma and abuse.

Thank you as always for being such a supportive friend. You consistently make a difference in my life.

[Apocalipstic]

I was adopted when I was 4mo's old, before that I was in foster care. From what I can gather, my birth mother was young, unmarried and Jewish.The father was Cree/Scottish, not a good combination. The young woman was pressured into giving me up because of racial issues on the side of the birth mother's family. Back in the 60's having a child that is part native was seriously frowned upon.

So here I am. I knew I was adopted very early, my folks didn't want me to have any issues. My cousin is adopted as well, and is bitter and a very angry person.

I did start a search for my birth mother when I was 20, as I was having some health issues that could be due to genetics. So I did get a hold of her, our conversation was pretty brief, I found out my genetic history including my own cultural background. I was very grateful for that, but neither of us wanted to persue a relationship - her for the fact she wanted that part of her past to remain so and I because she had no right to be.

My own hell started after my adoption. From the time I can remember, I was verbally attacked and threatened to be sent back the agency. The older I got the assaults became physical as well. I ended up being a very angry teen and young adult. I had major abandonment issues which have only dissipated in the last decade or so.

What I am mad at is that these agencies don't check deep enough into the prospective parents even to this day. It should not be a given that every person has the right to have/adopt a chld. I know a person who actually sued the agency and settled out of court. My was through the gov't and there was no way to get recourse.

On the flip side of all of this, I have become a kind, loving and very affectionate person. I make sure the folks in my life know how important and loved they are. I wouldn't be the person I am today I don't think without my childhood being so messed up.

~Red~

Oh, thank you for posting! I am part Native American too, and my adoptive parents were not told. Probably the agency.

I was abused mentally and physically too. I am so sorry you went through that. They don't check out the families well enough, though in my case, my parents being missionaries probably looked great on the application to adopt.

You are so right, we would not be the strong women we are today if we did nto have our childhoods.

[Sam]

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen

First off i never knew you were adopted. Not a bad thing, just never knew.

I have always known i was adopted. My parents told me at a young age. I dont really remember how they told me, but i remember knowing.

I have never met my birth parents, i have no real idea where they are, who they are or if they are even still alive.

Closed adoption suck ass. NYS is very hard on giving out any kinds of info, hell im 42 fucking years old, i deserve to know.

I always told myself i would wait to start my search for my birth parents after both my parents past on. after my dad passed in 2006, i wrote to NYS.

I got a letter back at christmas time 2006 giving me very little about my birth mother.

She was canadian, she was 20 and I was her first child. wow that was all, never heard anything again from NYS.

Going to read through the thread now.

[Apocalipstic]

I got the "bad" genes for sure, I don't rely on much of the scientific spew.



FA's article to me seems to talk more about parents trying to mess with nature when it comes to "splicing" out bad and good genes.

http://www.amfor.net/acs/

Artcile on ACS- Adopted Child Syndrome

See, I think its being adopted, not your genes at all.

[Apocalipstic]

The point I am trying to make about bad genes vs good genes is for example...

I have Bipolar. I was finally diagnosed at 21. Was that bad gene with me from birth?

Yes. Did me or my family know this? No. If we had all known my medical history regaurding this would it have mattered? Perhaps in getting a quicker diagnosis.
So, I take medication and have been hospital free and stabilized for over 10 years now!
If I had not been adopted would I still have bipolar? Yes. Would that have made any significant difference in the quality of my life? I don't think so.

I have some other medical issues I am dealing with. Are they genetic or lifestyle? I can choose to eat better nutritionally which would lower my risk factors to certain predispositions. Etc...So is it lifestyle that plays with some factors or solely genetics? I believe a bit of both. But some things are my responsibility such as taking my medications to prevent symptoms. Not because I am adopted.

As far as the article shared
I appreciate you sharing it but don't agree one bit about adoptees having more:

conflict with authority (for example truancy);
preoccupation with excessive fantasy;
pathological lying;
stealing;
running away (from home, school, group homes, situations);
learning difficulties, under-achievement, over-achievement;
lack of impulse control (acting out, promiscuity, sex crimes);
fascination with fire, fire-setting
"In twenty-five years of practice I have seen hundreds of adoptees, most adopted in infancy. In case after case, I have observed what I have come to call the Adopted Child Syndrome, which may include pathological lying, stealing, truancy, manipulation, shallowness of attachment, provocation of parents and other authorities, threatened or actual running away, promiscuity, learning problems, fire-setting, and increasingly serious antisocial behavior, often leading to court custody. It may include an extremely negative or grandiose self-image, low frustration tolerance, and an absence of normal guilt or anxiety."

It sounds like his practice was filled with sociopaths by the traits he is describing.
Do adoptees have a higher incidence of becoming a sociopath then non adoptees in mainstream society? Yes. But is it nature over nurture? I believe we can change our destiny. Some factors are a choice. Let's look at alcoholism. Is it genetic? Yes. So if an alcoholic passes the bad genes of alcoholism to a child will that child whether biological or adopted have a higher predisposition to becoming an alcoholic? Yes. But there are still choices and help available to adoptees as well as biological children. And if this person learns something very beneficial from having the bad gene of alcoholism that perhaps changes others lives is that gene truly a bad one?

I will just end my rambling with two quotes I live by:

For all of the pain, abuse, anger experienced by some including myself who are adopted
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free, and discover that the prisoner was you". -Lewis B Smedes, "Forgiveness - The Power to Change the Past"

If I did not learn to forgive my biological parents, my adoptive parents I would be and remain the prisoner not them.

"I've learned that our background and circumstances
May have influenced who we are,
But we are responsible for who we become."

James Rhinehart



"My life is my message"...... Your life is your message.:rose:
Mahatma Gandhi

I am not trying to argue with you and I don't want to post a lot of statististics, but children who are adopted in closed adoptions are way more likely to kill their parents, be serial killers and have all sorts of problems.

Its great that you have adjusted so well and that you know you would have had the same problems whether or not you were adopted.

I think it's important for our own self forgiveness that we know and accept the fact that growing up away from our people does make a difference.

I am so happy you have worked things out and are doing so well! :)

[Apocalipstic]

You may not agree but for many adoptees out there who do agree with the article might tell you so. I am being one of those.

I am bi polar as well, I have a MAJOR issue with authority and always have, I have stolen from family and friends, learning difficulties, impulse control issues and have been known to set fires as a child.

Sociopath? Me, prolly no doubt, do I care no, not in the least bit, my siblings would be considered sociopaths as well.

Do I think most of those things you pointed at are choices, No I do not. I have my own reasons and my real family being the one reason I do not belive in choices.

I was also diagnosed as bi-polar in my 20's. We later discovered that it was PTSD and major depression and that my manic moments were cocaine induced.

I do think we have some choices, but I also believe that being ripped from our mother's arms and left with no touch for weeks until another woman took us in has to make a big difference in our lives.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes I know some with agree and disagree

Why lie about what many doctors and such have told me and my family? I am not the type to pussyfoot around or hide my feelings on things, I am blunt on many things and stand my ground. Why others try to so hard to conceal something is beyond me, if you keep hiding, things get worse.


I am very blunt too, and why hide?

We have been lied to enough, had secrets enough.

Telling the truth is what is helping. The whole truth.

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I love you, hon. It hurts to watch you hurt so much--and yet I know it's necessary. You have to deal with this crap--and I know it IS crap; I hate that you're saddled with it!--in order to move forward with your life.

The heavens know I have felt ridiculously silly dealing with my old pain and anger at my mother at this age of 51, so I hear you on feeling silly! I keep thinking, "WTF?? I dealt with all this years ago!" but yanno, there are buried layers and they don't come to the top until it's safe to deal with them.

I guess that means you and I are safe now, eh? Even though it doesn't feel that way at all!

About this idea that your mother gave you up out of love, you're right, it's ridiculous. She gave you up because she was forced to. In the 1950s and 60s, girls were commonly forced to.

I will say that there really are some people who give their children up out of love, and do their damnedest to make sure the kids are given to good parents, better parents than they themselves can be. Those people are the ones who grieve, who wonder for the rest of their lives if the kids are okay, who pray for them (or send energy), who never stop loving and never stop hurting. Your mom might not be one of them, there might not be many of them... but they do exist.

[Apocalipstic]

First off i never knew you were adopted. Not a bad thing, just never knew.

I have always known i was adopted. My parents told me at a young age. I dont really remember how they told me, but i remember knowing.

I have never met my birth parents, i have no real idea where they are, who they are or if they are even still alive.

Closed adoption suck ass. NYS is very hard on giving out any kinds of info, hell im 42 fucking years old, i deserve to know.

I always told myself i would wait to start my search for my birth parents after both my parents past on. after my dad passed in 2006, i wrote to NYS.

I got a letter back at christmas time 2006 giving me very little about my birth mother.

She was canadian, she was 20 and I was her first child. wow that was all, never heard anything again from NYS.

Going to read through the thread now.



I did not realize you were adopted either.

I guess, till my Dad died and all the stuff that arises around that, I did not realize being adopted made a difference in my life. I thought it was his abuse that defined me and made me succeptible to controlling dominating people.

It is very interesting to read and study about adoption, and why I am like I am.

Oklahoma is very difficult to get info from too, I agree it totally sucks that people still don't see the damage it casues to not share the truth of a person's own history with them. How much it would mean to you to know, especially now that you have a son.

Thanks for posting!

[Apocalipstic]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I love you, hon. It hurts to watch you hurt so much--and yet I know it's necessary. You have to deal with this crap--and I know it IS crap; I hate that you're saddled with it!--in order to move forward with your life.

The heavens know I have felt ridiculously silly dealing with my old pain and anger at my mother at this age of 51, so I hear you on feeling silly! I keep thinking, "WTF?? I dealt with all this years ago!" but yanno, there are buried layers and they don't come to the top until it's safe to deal with them.

I guess that means you and I are safe now, eh? Even though it doesn't feel that way at all!

About this idea that your mother gave you up out of love, you're right, it's ridiculous. She gave you up because she was forced to. In the 1950s and 60s, girls were commonly forced to.

I will say that there really are some people who give their children up out of love, and do their damnedest to make sure the kids are given to good parents, better parents than they themselves can be. Those people are the ones who grieve, who wonder for the rest of their lives if the kids are okay, who pray for them (or send energy), who never stop loving and never stop hurting. Your mom might not be one of them, there might not be many of them... but they do exist.



You know, thats a great point. Yes, you and I are safe and loved now which makes even being able to think about this stuff possible. :) Thanks for,pointing that out! Smile.

I do know that some people do give their children away out of love, or what they think is love. I hope that those mothers and fathers will actually pick out the new parents themselves and stay involved and make sure their offspring know their heritage.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Wow glad to see some posting on here, let me try to recoup myself from last night and collect my thoughts and get back to you

[Sam]

Jen

I joined many adoption sites through out NYS, then when i found out that my birth mother was canadian, i started the search in canada. i really almost got lucky, until the actual birth dates didnt match up. i went as far as copying the info NYS gave me ( non identifying info) and sent it to this woman in canada that had a birth mom looking.

worst thing is, how do i know i was born on the 12th day? i dont believe a word anyone says at this point about my records.

i'm sorry for your abuse. Truly i am.

I have never been abused by my parents, i had a great life growing up. the best education, the best of everything. but as it sticks out right now, my parents told me for 20 years that i was adopted through catholic charities at 11 months of age. NYS paperwork says i was adopted through the state. who do i believe? back then it was 2 very different networks. state being the fucked up state of NY and catholic charities being catholic???

Avery is beautiful soul. i wish very much that he had the chance to meet his grandparents.

My condolences on your father, i do remember kelle telling me.

Sam

[Apocalipstic]

Jen

I joined many adoption sites through out NYS, then when i found out that my birth mother was canadian, i started the search in canada. i really almost got lucky, until the actual birth dates didnt match up. i went as far as copying the info NYS gave me ( non identifying info) and sent it to this woman in canada that had a birth mom looking.

worst thing is, how do i know i was born on the 12th day? i dont believe a word anyone says at this point about my records.

i'm sorry for your abuse. Truly i am.

I have never been abused by my parents, i had a great life growing up. the best education, the best of everything. but as it sticks out right now, my parents told me for 20 years that i was adopted through catholic charities at 11 months of age. NYS paperwork says i was adopted through the state. who do i believe? back then it was 2 very different networks. state being the fucked up state of NY and catholic charities being catholic???

Avery is beautiful soul. i wish very much that he had the chance to meet his grandparents.

My condolences on your father, i do remember kelle telling me.

Sam


Thank you, he was very abusive, so its been kinda weird.

He did give us good educations and travel and all that, but he was crazy.

I know what you mean about not knowing what is real. Sometimes I wonder if my birthday is when I think it is, or if the time is right. I do know where it was though, and it was Methodist charities which yes, was separate from the state.

Have you gone through all your Dad's papers? We found some things pertaining to my sister's adoption, but there is so so so much more to be gone through, and I have just not felt up to it. I guess maybe you did before he went to the assisted living place?

I would have thought that NY would be more liberal in its adoption records than Oklahoma, but I guess not. In Oklahoma, you can send a letter to the state and if your birth parents try to contact you, they will give them the letter. Problem is, so many women used an assumed name. My birth mother did.

I wish Avery could have met his grandparents too.

[Sam]

Thank you, he was very abusive, so its been kinda weird.

He did give us good educations and travel and all that, but he was crazy.

I know what you mean about not knowing what is real. Sometimes I wonder if my birthday is when I think it is, or if the time is right. I do know where it was though, and it was Methodist charities which yes, was separate from the state.

Have you gone through all your Dad's papers? We found some things pertaining to my sister's adoption, but there is so so so much more to be gone through, and I have just not felt up to it. I guess maybe you did before he went to the assisted living place?

I would have thought that NY would be more liberal in its adoption records than Oklahoma, but I guess not. In Oklahoma, you can send a letter to the state and if your birth parents try to contact you, they will give them the letter. Problem is, so many women used an assumed name. My birth mother did.

I wish Avery could have met his grandparents too.

Kelle went through all my parents paperwork, while selling the house. we sat on the floor in my old living room and didnt find anything.

Which was kind of weird, NOT a single piece of paper pertaining to the adoption.

My dad had to either get rid of it or gave it to someone for "safe" keeping.

I wrote to NYS, they will pass my information on if someone is looking for me, but i bet that will be a cold day in hell.

My birth mother would be 62 right now. After all my changes, shes looking for a "daughter" that dont exist.

I think the laws SUCK, so many groups are trying to change the laws in NYS, but i bet it will never happen. I do believe that the laws should change for health relations.

This is a great topic Jen.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I received a phone call from one of my half sister this evening, she lost her house to a fire yesterday and was letting me know everyone is accounted for and safe.

On another note she had mentioned that our mother is sick, the flu stuff, for the 2nd time in less than month, I told my sister I stopped playing phone tag with our mother months ago because the old coot never called me back.

Nor will she answer any more questions, it's frustration city with that woman

[dreadgeek]

I'm in therapy for a multitude of things, but the one thing that I have never thought about much in regard to my depression and trauma healing is my adoption.

I am reading and pondering and want to discuss closed adoptions from the point of view of the adoptee.

If you put a child up for closed adoption, or adopted someone that way, you may want to stay away from this thread. There will be things you don't want to hear. You are welcome, but know you have been warned. This thread is not here to make you feel better, but to work through some of the issues adoptees go through.

Now for a couple of questions to get us started:

Have you always known you were adopted?

Have you met your birth parents?

How did your adopted parents tell you you were adopted?

Thank you for your participation, I know this is a rough subject.

Jen

Interesting questions.

I found out I was adopted when I was 17. I had brought home a report card with a 'C' on it. My father and I were having our normal report card conversation and at the end of it, before we went inside, he said "oh by the way, you're adopted" then turned his back on me and went inside the house.

For the next four years we played what I call 'the adoption game'. The adoption game goes like this:

Me: Mom? Am I really adopted.
Mom: You've always been our child.
Me: Dad, am I adopted?
Dad: We've always loved you.

After my son was born, I pinned my parents down by saying "I need to know for genetic reasons--am I adopted. A simple yes or no question requiring a yes or no answer." My father replied "yes, never bring this up again".

He and I never spoke of it again. I did not find anything else out until twelve years later, after my father was dead and my mother told me a little more. They knew my birth mother because she was a student at the high school in Alabama where my mother was a teacher and my father a vice principal at the time. After my mother died in 2007, my sister sent me what paperwork she could find which had my original name and some pieces of correspondence with the Alabama department of child welfare regarding the fostering and then adoption.

I have never met my birth mother although I would like to, if for no other reason than to tell her that I grew up okay.

Cheers
Aj

[bigbutchmistie]

Thank you to everyone who has posted, I need to go back and read it all and will respond, but first I want to respond to this post and all the posts one at a time. :)



Thanks for sharing Misty, we have a lot in common actually. My
biological Father became a cop in Dallas and may still be. My biograndfather on my mother's side was the sheriff of their town, I think it was Hobart, OK. My adopted mother, whom I loved more than I can put into words, died allegedly of an aneurysm (though that is not what her death certificate says).

I am so glad that you got to meet your mother and that the meeting went well, and even more glad that you seem to have a foster family who still cares about you and accepts you for who you are.

Do you get to see your brother now? How cruel to not let you see him. My heart goes out to you both.


I saw my brother when he graduated high school. I took my biological mom with me. We were asked to leave. :) I stayed. I felt she should see him graduate. I didnt see him until he joined the Army and came back from Afghanistan. Then my mom and I went down to Fort Polk LA to get him and his friend a week before she died. He only got to know her for about a week. A few weeks later he shipped out for a few years to Iraq. We have had a relationship off and on. Not of my choosing. But of his. He struggles with my being gay. And my adopted parents "claim" him as their son. So he is torn. Ive let him know that my door is always open and Im just a phone call away. We got to spend Thanksgiving together this year. That was great. He is supposed to go to Center Texas and see his boys. They live with my adopted parents. But yes. I miss the closeness that he and I shared when we were little :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

You know what would be great, a BFP adoptees gathering

[Apocalipstic]

Kelle went through all my parents paperwork, while selling the house. we sat on the floor in my old living room and didnt find anything.

Which was kind of weird, NOT a single piece of paper pertaining to the adoption.

My dad had to either get rid of it or gave it to someone for "safe" keeping.

I wrote to NYS, they will pass my information on if someone is looking for me, but i bet that will be a cold day in hell.

My birth mother would be 62 right now. After all my changes, shes looking for a "daughter" that dont exist.

I think the laws SUCK, so many groups are trying to change the laws in NYS, but i bet it will never happen. I do believe that the laws should change for health relations.

This is a great topic Jen.

That is weird that ther was zero paperwork on the adoption, he must have gotten rid of it at some point. My Dad had letters and domuments about our adoptions.

I'm sorry you can't find out more, how maddening!

I received a phone call from one of my half sister this evening, she lost her house to a fire yesterday and was letting me know everyone is accounted for and safe.

On another note she had mentioned that our mother is sick, the flu stuff, for the 2nd time in less than month, I told my sister I stopped playing phone tag with our mother months ago because the old coot never called me back.

Nor will she answer any more questions, it's frustration city with that woman

Oh no, I am so sorry. And at Christmas.
I did not speak to my adopted dad for 11 years before his death last January. I get how frustrating it can be.

Interesting questions.

I found out I was adopted when I was 17. I had brought home a report card with a 'C' on it. My father and I were having our normal report card conversation and at the end of it, before we went inside, he said "oh by the way, you're adopted" then turned his back on me and went inside the house.

For the next four years we played what I call 'the adoption game'. The adoption game goes like this:

Me: Mom? Am I really adopted.
Mom: You've always been our child.
Me: Dad, am I adopted?
Dad: We've always loved you.

After my son was born, I pinned my parents down by saying "I need to know for genetic reasons--am I adopted. A simple yes or no question requiring a yes or no answer." My father replied "yes, never bring this up again".

He and I never spoke of it again. I did not find anything else out until twelve years later, after my father was dead and my mother told me a little more. They knew my birth mother because she was a student at the high school in Alabama where my mother was a teacher and my father a vice principal at the time. After my mother died in 2007, my sister sent me what paperwork she could find which had my original name and some pieces of correspondence with the Alabama department of child welfare regarding the fostering and then adoption.

I have never met my birth mother although I would like to, if for no other reason than to tell her that I grew up okay.

Cheers
Aj

Perfect, you got C's and he tells you you are adopted. What a blow, I am so very sorry. I can completely understamd the confusion you must have felt!

People still have a hard time talking about adoption, I wonder why? I guess they felt threatened?

I hope you get to meet her some day. :)

I saw my brother when he graduated high school. I took my biological mom with me. We were asked to leave. :) I stayed. I felt she should see him graduate. I didnt see him until he joined the Army and came back from Afghanistan. Then my mom and I went down to Fort Polk LA to get him and his friend a week before she died. He only got to know her for about a week. A few weeks later he shipped out for a few years to Iraq. We have had a relationship off and on. Not of my choosing. But of his. He struggles with my being gay. And my adopted parents "claim" him as their son. So he is torn. Ive let him know that my door is always open and Im just a phone call away. We got to spend Thanksgiving together this year. That was great. He is supposed to go to Center Texas and see his boys. They live with my adopted parents. But yes. I miss the closeness that he and I shared when we were little :)


So glad you got to go to his graduation and that you spent Thanksgiving!
I have 3 half brothers and a half sister I have met, but don't know. Two of my half brothers would not even look at me and blamed me for messing up their Mom's life.


You know what would be great, a BFP adoptees gathering

If we have a gathering, let's have an adoptee meet up :) That sounds great. We have so much to talk about.

[dreadgeek]

Perfect, you got C's and he tells you you are adopted. What a blow, I am so very sorry. I can completely understamd the confusion you must have felt!



Thanks hun. That's probably the most personal thing I've ever revealed in one of these public forums. You now have a real insight into why I move through the world in the way I do.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks hun. That's probably the most personal thing I've ever revealed in one of these public forums. You now have a real insight into why I move through the world in the way I do.

Cheers
Aj

I wonder what he would have said if you got a C-.

I can't imagine what it would have been like to not know till I was 17. Did you have zero idea?

[Bit]

omg... one C.... omg. {{{{{{{{{{{{{Aj}}}}}}}}}}}}} His timing would have seemed like some kind of cruel joke to me, some kind of twisted "punishment" or something, and such a rejection!! ....omg, it boggles the brain.

I wonder if he had already decided to tell you about your being adopted since you had turned seventeen, and was just guilty of horrible timing... maybe the reason they kept playing the adoption game after that was that they were trying to reassure you? or maybe trying to expiate his guilt over his insensitivity?

For whatever it's worth, Aj, I am so sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve it; you wouldn't have deserved it even if you had been flunking. It should never have been done that way and I'm so sorry it was.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yeah it is frustrating Apoc. but me and my real mother are not close by any means, we just talk but havent met yet, when that day comes I am not sure how I would handle myself around her.

If we ever had a meeting there would be tons to talk about and prolly lots of awesome food too hahaha!!!

[Apocalipstic]

Yeah it is frustrating Apoc. but me and my real mother are not close by any means, we just talk but havent met yet, when that day comes I am not sure how I would handle myself around her.

If we ever had a meeting there would be tons to talk about and prolly lots of awesome food too hahaha!!!


I have not talked to my buo parents in maybe 13 or 14 years. They had the nerve to write ma about how I not thankful enough for them.

Whatever!

Good food and good convo sounds awesome! :clap:

[dreadgeek]

I wonder what he would have said if you got a C-.

I can't imagine what it would have been like to not know till I was 17. Did you have zero idea?

None what-so-ever. My skin-tone is almost exactly what you would expect from viewing a picture of my father and my mother (my mother could, until she was in her 70's, almost pass for white and my father was the color of a cup of coffee with no cream in it). The shape of my face is close enough to other members of my family that, in the absence of any other information and based upon what felt, at the time, like the energy of a shameful family secret being kept, and given that there is a group of first cousins on my mother's side who were ALL old enough to be my biological mother, for a long time I figured that I was actually the daughter of one of my female cousins. I had two, in particular, who I thought I might be the daughter of.

As it turns out, though, the story is far more interesting (and vindicates my parents in a really amazing way so I will tell that part of it).

As I said last night, my biological mother was a student at the high school my parents were employed at. From what my mother said, she was a brilliant student. She had a full-ride scholarship to Howard University when she 'got in trouble' (as it was phrased in 1966). This was the late 60's, it was Alabama, there was functionally no such thing as an abortion and, given the morays of the time, for her to be known to be 'with child' would have been a shameful mess and resulted in her losing the scholarship. Along with being the VP my father was coach of the football, basketball and baseball teams. This was in Tuscaloosa. What this meant was that my father was *somebody*. He had won, in his career coaching, some 400 *straight* games so he had some serious juju. As I understand it what they did was 'made it go away'. They would take me on the condition that she was to go to college and never try to have contact with me. The birth certificate I grew up with showed that the people who raised me were my parents. (I did not know the name I was given at birth until late last year) My parents were part of the civil rights generation. There are newsreel pictures of them at the March on Washington and the Selma march. As such they were on a mission that we in the black community used to call 'uplift' (a term much denigrated now). This was just another bit of them doing their part to uplift the race.

All in all, given all the possible fates a black child could have faced in late 60's/early-70's Alabama, I won the adoption lottery. It doesn't make the bits of brutality that I survived better (and there was brutality, I laugh when people think that because I grew up with economic privilege that my childhood was lived in the land of milk and honey) but for all of that, I still feel like I got very, very lucky.

Oh and to answer your question--had I ever brought home a C- I would have been beat. The only reason I didn't get beat that day was because a year before, my mother had cracked a shovel handle around my ass and I had made it clear that days of my being hit with impunity were done (she hit my coccyx, missing my spine just barely. I had no stomach for being paralyzed before I hit 18 so I put a stop to the beating).

Cheers
Aj

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I have not talked to my buo parents in maybe 13 or 14 years. They had the nerve to write ma about how I not thankful enough for them.

Whatever!

Good food and good convo sounds awesome! :clap:

Oh gag that kinda trying to make you feel guilty crap is lame IMO

but how about southern food for the get together HAHAH:tease:

[Apocalipstic]

None what-so-ever. My skin-tone is almost exactly what you would expect from viewing a picture of my father and my mother (my mother could, until she was in her 70's, almost pass for white and my father was the color of a cup of coffee with no cream in it). The shape of my face is close enough to other members of my family that, in the absence of any other information and based upon what felt, at the time, like the energy of a shameful family secret being kept, and given that there is a group of first cousins on my mother's side who were ALL old enough to be my biological mother, for a long time I figured that I was actually the daughter of one of my female cousins. I had two, in particular, who I thought I might be the daughter of.

As it turns out, though, the story is far more interesting (and vindicates my parents in a really amazing way so I will tell that part of it).

As I said last night, my biological mother was a student at the high school my parents were employed at. From what my mother said, she was a brilliant student. She had a full-ride scholarship to Howard University when she 'got in trouble' (as it was phrased in 1966). This was the late 60's, it was Alabama, there was functionally no such thing as an abortion and, given the morays of the time, for her to be known to be 'with child' would have been a shameful mess and resulted in her losing the scholarship. Along with being the VP my father was coach of the football, basketball and baseball teams. This was in Tuscaloosa. What this meant was that my father was *somebody*. He had won, in his career coaching, some 400 *straight* games so he had some serious juju. As I understand it what they did was 'made it go away'. They would take me on the condition that she was to go to college and never try to have contact with me. The birth certificate I grew up with showed that the people who raised me were my parents. (I did not know the name I was given at birth until late last year) My parents were part of the civil rights generation. There are newsreel pictures of them at the March on Washington and the Selma march. As such they were on a mission that we in the black community used to call 'uplift' (a term much denigrated now). This was just another bit of them doing their part to uplift the race.

All in all, given all the possible fates a black child could have faced in late 60's/early-70's Alabama, I won the adoption lottery. It doesn't make the bits of brutality that I survived better (and there was brutality, I laugh when people think that because I grew up with economic privilege that my childhood was lived in the land of milk and honey) but for all of that, I still feel like I got very, very lucky.

Oh and to answer your question--had I ever brought home a C- I would have been beat. The only reason I didn't get beat that day was because a year before, my mother had cracked a shovel handle around my ass and I had made it clear that days of my being hit with impunity were done (she hit my coccyx, missing my spine just barely. I had no stomach for being paralyzed before I hit 18 so I put a stop to the beating).

Cheers
Aj

I am so sorry that happened to you! It does sound like your adoptive parents were trying to do the right thing by adopting you, but the lies and secrets and abuse were not what you or anyone deserves.

I got in trouble for an A-, and my parents in addition to being missionaries taugh, so I totally understand that pressure...they were the first generation of their families where everyone went to college and graduate school and we were expected to do the same. If I made an A and they knew I had not studied (which I usually had not) then I was in trouble that it was not an A+.

A shovel handle? Economic priviledge be dammed! We grew up priviledged in that sense too, but does it make up for the abuse?

I don't truly know.

You have a great outlook AJ! :)

[Apocalipstic]

Oh gag that kinda trying to make you feel guilty crap is lame IMO

but how about southern food for the get together HAHAH:tease:

Yeah, I was supposed to feel guilty? I was not spending enough time with them. Hello people, you gave me away!

Southern Food sounds rockin'!

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yeah, I was supposed to feel guilty? I was not spending enough time with them. Hello people, you gave me away!

Southern Food sounds rockin'!


Right, never feel guilty for something they did

[Rockinonahigh]

Hello floks
I hevent droped off the face of the earth,just been feeling like ive been run over by a whole herd of reindeer..sled and all.I have been poping in now and then but havent had the energy to respond to much.
I want to take this time to wish all of you a merry christmas and happy new year,no mater what the situation may be we have made it one more year...u can bet we will contenue to be strong and viable for a long time yet.Folks ,we won what some "people " said we would never do,we lived,loved.made some good and not so good desisions ..but thats life and how we learn...we have had sccess in one way or the other.Yes we are stronger that ever.When I look back and think of it all..I smile ..raise my glass to the good ppl who have been and are in my life,all of you included,who made me the stronger person to make it a better life for mayself.
Rockin

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I got a txt from my half sister but noone else in my bio family, I refuse to chase them any longer.

[christie]

I hope you all had a lovely Christmas (for those who celebrate it)...

We just got back from four lovely days in Nashville. I daresay The Hotel Preston has become our home away from home!

This year; however, it felt more disjointed than ever being "home". I don't know if its that I don't live there anymore, that our differences are just that more apparent or what it was - it was just disconnected.

Do others of you, when you visit with your adopted family, feel like that Sesame Street song, "Which one of these things is not like the other one...."?

Christie

[Rockinonahigh]

Christie
I still have a cousin im sort of close to,she says she is very open about my queer life but it often feels like the pink elephant in the room that she try's to ignore but dosent quite manage to.
Rockin

[Apocalipstic]

Ohh yeahhh.

So Christmas eve I was supposed to go to my adopted Aunt's house. I love her, but its always drama with people remembering my Mom and thinking my father (all adopted) killed her. I have an uncle who always says :Ohhh your are Martha's adopted daughter, your mother was a saint" then he collapses in a corner to cry. I am not making this up.

Anyway, so I woke up Christmas eve a WRECK. I cried till 11am, when Cynthia suggested Valium and a nap. She woke me up at 6, after I had missed the entire thing asking if I was going to spend Christmas Eve with her.

I have yet to call my aunt to apologize and feel horrible for being such a baby and Cynthia having to deal with me.

On a good note Christmas day at Cynthia's family's house was wonderful and a great time was had by all. :)

Hopefully my therapist can help with how to handle the skipping of Christmas Eve. I suck. suck suck

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Ohh yeahhh.

So Christmas eve I was supposed to go to my adopted Aunt's house. I love her, but its always drama with people remembering my Mom and thinking my father (all adopted) killed her. I have an uncle who always says :Ohhh your are Martha's adopted daughter, your mother was a saint" then he collapses in a corner to cry. I am not making this up.

Anyway, so I woke up Christmas eve a WRECK. I cried till 11am, when Cynthia suggested Valium and a nap. She woke me up at 6, after I had missed the entire thing asking if I was going to spend Christmas Eve with her.

I have yet to call my aunt to apologize and feel horrible for being such a baby and Cynthia having to deal with me.

On a good note Christmas day at Cynthia's family's house was wonderful and a great time was had by all. :)

Hopefully my therapist can help with how to handle the skipping of Christmas Eve. I suck. suck suck

YOU DO NOT SUCK, not at all. I do hope your therapist can help more, but don't keep thinking you suck because you don't.

[Apocalipstic]

YOU DO NOT SUCK, not at all. I do hope your therapist can help more, but don't keep thinking you suck because you don't.

Thank you. I just could not do it. :ohm:

Went back to old patterns of avoidance. Pills and sleep.

I am so thankful I have you guys who understand!

[Apocalipstic]

YOU DO NOT SUCK, not at all. I do hope your therapist can help more, but don't keep thinking you suck because you don't.

I have another friend whose family sent her a Christmas text.

WTF??????

a text?

really?

My little cousin's boyfriend broke up with her after 9 years with a text. I do not get it.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Thank you. I just could not do it. :ohm:

Went back to old patterns of avoidance. Pills and sleep.

I am so thankful I have you guys who understand!

Your welcome and you know it is very easy to go back to old patterns right out of the blue, it is like a comfort zone, but you feel like total shit when you skip out on things, etc. Yet we manage to carry on each and every day.

[Apocalipstic]

Your welcome and you know it is very easy to go back to old patterns right out of the blue, it is like a comfort zone, but you feel like total shit when you skip out on things, etc. Yet we manage to carry on each and every day.


I know, its been a long time since I have checked out like that.
Thank you for understanding :)
and yes, I feel like total shit, but a bit better thanks to you. so maybe partial shit. :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I know, its been a long time since I have checked out like that.
Thank you for understanding :)
and yes, I feel like total shit, but a bit better thanks to you. so maybe partial shit. :)

Checking out aint so bad every now and than but I see alot of holiday stress related causes make people check out, along with missing family members, etc.

LOL@ partial shit:crap:

I had to check out the rest of Christmas day, with either gallstone pain or ulcer pain and yes I got 1 stinking text from one of my half sisters this year when they all have my number, I kinda resigned myself to leave them alone until it comes time I need to meet my real mom and take it from there.


Chocolate?:eatthebunny:

[Apocalipstic]

Checking out aint so bad every now and than but I see alot of holiday stress related causes make people check out, along with missing family members, etc.

LOL@ partial shit:crap:

I had to check out the rest of Christmas day, with either gallstone pain or ulcer pain and yes I got 1 stinking text from one of my half sisters this year when they all have my number, I kinda resigned myself to leave them alone until it comes time I need to meet my real mom and take it from there.


Chocolate?:eatthebunny:

Ha, I failed to mention I ate 3 giant candy bars on Christmas eve before the valium.

Chocolate always helps.

the texting thing kills me.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Ha, I failed to mention I ate 3 giant candy bars on Christmas eve before the valium.

Chocolate always helps.

the texting thing kills me.


HAHAHA I ate alot of chocolate too and yeah the whole texting deal bugs me as well

but coming back home to :sugarglider: and my dog made it all worth while

[Apocalipstic]

HAHAHA I ate alot of chocolate too and yeah the whole texting deal bugs me as well

but coming back home to :sugarglider: and my dog made it all worth while


Animals are the best, I have 2 cats and 2 dogs and they all pile up with me.
Does the sugar glider have a little pouch? One of my coworkers used to bring hers to work, it would peek out at us at meetings. :)

[Bit]

Anyway, so I woke up Christmas eve a WRECK. I cried till 11am, when Cynthia suggested Valium and a nap. She woke me up at 6, after I had missed the entire thing asking if I was going to spend Christmas Eve with her.

I have yet to call my aunt to apologize and feel horrible for being such a baby and Cynthia having to deal with me.

On a good note Christmas day at Cynthia's family's house was wonderful and a great time was had by all. :)

Hopefully my therapist can help with how to handle the skipping of Christmas Eve. I suck. suck suck

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}} I'm sorry it was so difficult.

I'm wondering what exactly is it that you suck so badly at, though. Accepting bad behavior from dysfunctional people? Putting yourself into an emotionally abusive situation? Forcing yourself to do something that's totally unhealthy? May we ALL learn to suck at those!!

...forgive me if I can't figure out why you're beating the hell out of yourself over choosing to avoid a desperately unhealthy situation....

Cynthia deserves flowers for seeing that you were in dire straits, for suggesting the right answer, and for knowing the right time to wake you up. And if flowers aren't her thing, well, she deserves whatever is comparable, cuz yanno in all seriousness, you owe her one for saving you from yourself, honey.


Went back to old patterns of avoidance. Pills and sleep.


Medical intervention is hardly a bad thing in the face of uncontrollable emotional breakdown. {{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}

Come on, hon, you're analytical... think about this. If it were me, and I was breaking down over going to a family "celebration" where people would treat me the way you've been treated (including the uncle about my dead mother), wouldn't you just look at me and say, "for pete's sake Cath, don't go there! Why DO that to yourself! Why force yourself to do something so unhealthy?"

If it were Cynthia in that situation, wouldn't you do your VERY best to keep her from going? I sure as the stars wouldn't let Gryph go!

See, I think the thing here is not that this is an adopted family, but that it's a dysfunctional family, still reeling from past abuse and still emotionally abusive today. That's not healthy whether you're adopted or not.

You don't have any obligation to them, you know, any more than I have any obligation to my own family. Adopted family or birth family, when they're this abusive, all bets are off.

From my psychology 101 class:
When you cannot change a situation, and you cannot change yourself to be able to accept the situation, the healthy response, the path of sanity, is to walk away.


What this means in a practical sense is that you might need to avoid spending holidays with them, or it might mean that you need to limit contact to very brief meetings, or it might mean that you need to avoid contact altogether, cut ties and walk away. Only you can decide what is best for your own mental health---but honey, if your therapist knew how horrid this really is/was for you, I'm betting she'd be telling you to walk away, at least temporarily.

You do not have any obligation to force yourself to do anything, Jen. You're an adult without minor children, therefore your overriding obligation is to do what is healthy for you and your next obligation is to do what is healthy for your partner; after that, you are obligated to do what is best for your furbabies.

The rest of the people in your life? They're not obligations, sugar. They're there because you choose them--nothing more. You are free to un-choose them if they're bad for you, and you're certainly free to turn down invitations to events that are bad for you.

Please, hon, stop beating yourself up for being healthy, k?

[christie]

See, I think the thing here is not that this is an adopted family, but that it's a dysfunctional family, still reeling from past abuse and still emotionally abusive today. That's not healthy whether you're adopted or not.

You don't have any obligation to them, you know, any more than I have any obligation to my own family. Adopted family or birth family, when they're this abusive, all bets are off.

You do not have any obligation to force yourself to do anything, Jen. You're an adult without minor children, therefore your overriding obligation is to do what is healthy for you and your next obligation is to do what is healthy for your partner; after that, you are obligated to do what is best for your furbabies.

The rest of the people in your life? They're not obligations, sugar. They're there because you choose them--nothing more. You are free to un-choose them if they're bad for you, and you're certainly free to turn down invitations to events that are bad for you.

Please, hon, stop beating yourself up for being healthy, k?


Bravo!!! I couldn't have said it better!

Jen - read this again... it makes SO much sense... especially the part I bolded.

I will pvt you my cell # - next time we're in town and you need a gentle reminder that there is nothing wrong with choosing to not be subject to family BS, you call me and we'll do some Opry Mills retail therapy (wait, I did that on Christmas Eve! - Hell, we'll do it again!)

[Bit]

That's high praise, Christie, thank you!

And I'm jealous... wish I lived closer to y'all! Friend Therapy is as good as Retail Therapy, for me... someday when I get That House put together properly, I'll have a big party and invite y'all.... :heartbeat:

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Animals are the best, I have 2 cats and 2 dogs and they all pile up with me.
Does the sugar glider have a little pouch? One of my coworkers used to bring hers to work, it would peek out at us at meetings. :)


yes mine have bonding pouches and a sleepin pouch, mine peek out at people all the time when I take them with me.

Animals are cheap therapy too

[Apocalipstic]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}} I'm sorry it was so difficult.

I'm wondering what exactly is it that you suck so badly at, though. Accepting bad behavior from dysfunctional people? Putting yourself into an emotionally abusive situation? Forcing yourself to do something that's totally unhealthy? May we ALL learn to suck at those!!

...forgive me if I can't figure out why you're beating the hell out of yourself over choosing to avoid a desperately unhealthy situation....

Cynthia deserves flowers for seeing that you were in dire straits, for suggesting the right answer, and for knowing the right time to wake you up. And if flowers aren't her thing, well, she deserves whatever is comparable, cuz yanno in all seriousness, you owe her one for saving you from yourself, honey.



Medical intervention is hardly a bad thing in the face of uncontrollable emotional breakdown. {{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}

Come on, hon, you're analytical... think about this. If it were me, and I was breaking down over going to a family "celebration" where people would treat me the way you've been treated (including the uncle about my dead mother), wouldn't you just look at me and say, "for pete's sake Cath, don't go there! Why DO that to yourself! Why force yourself to do something so unhealthy?"

If it were Cynthia in that situation, wouldn't you do your VERY best to keep her from going? I sure as the stars wouldn't let Gryph go!

See, I think the thing here is not that this is an adopted family, but that it's a dysfunctional family, still reeling from past abuse and still emotionally abusive today. That's not healthy whether you're adopted or not.

You don't have any obligation to them, you know, any more than I have any obligation to my own family. Adopted family or birth family, when they're this abusive, all bets are off.

From my psychology 101 class:
When you cannot change a situation, and you cannot change yourself to be able to accept the situation, the healthy response, the path of sanity, is to walk away.


What this means in a practical sense is that you might need to avoid spending holidays with them, or it might mean that you need to limit contact to very brief meetings, or it might mean that you need to avoid contact altogether, cut ties and walk away. Only you can decide what is best for your own mental health---but honey, if your therapist knew how horrid this really is/was for you, I'm betting she'd be telling you to walk away, at least temporarily.

You do not have any obligation to force yourself to do anything, Jen. You're an adult without minor children, therefore your overriding obligation is to do what is healthy for you and your next obligation is to do what is healthy for your partner; after that, you are obligated to do what is best for your furbabies.

The rest of the people in your life? They're not obligations, sugar. They're there because you choose them--nothing more. You are free to un-choose them if they're bad for you, and you're certainly free to turn down invitations to events that are bad for you.

Please, hon, stop beating yourself up for being healthy, k?



I felt like it was expected and I said I would go. But I just could not make myself.

My therapist suggested, if I did want to see any of them, to make it one on one and tell them I can't do large family things.

I guess I picture my Mom in Heaven (Which I don't even really believe in) being dissapointed in me.

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement, they (you) mean so much to me.

xoxoxo


Bravo!!! I couldn't have said it better!

Jen - read this again... it makes SO much sense... especially the part I bolded.

I will pvt you my cell # - next time we're in town and you need a gentle reminder that there is nothing wrong with choosing to not be subject to family BS, you call me and we'll do some Opry Mills retail therapy (wait, I did that on Christmas Eve! - Hell, we'll do it again!)

That sounds fab! :)

That's high praise, Christie, thank you!

And I'm jealous... wish I lived closer to y'all! Friend Therapy is as good as Retail Therapy, for me... someday when I get That House put together properly, I'll have a big party and invite y'all.... :heartbeat:

That would be so cool! Maybe we can all meet up sometime.

yes mine have bonding pouches and a sleepin pouch, mine peek out at people all the time when I take them with me.

Animals are cheap therapy too

Sooooo cute! Sometimes I wish I had a teeny pet who could go everywhere with me.

They are great therapy, they always know when I am sad.

:)

Thank you all for just being here to talk to. :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yeah and animals dont talk back or judge, they listen and cuddle!!

HAHAH maybe thats why I spend so much time with my pets.


On a side note, I am frustrated with my half sister, she texts me but doesn't call often and when she does, she dodges anything and everything when it comes to our mother.

[Apocalipstic]

Yeah and animals dont talk back or judge, they listen and cuddle!!

HAHAH maybe thats why I spend so much time with my pets.


On a side note, I am frustrated with my half sister, she texts me but doesn't call often and when she does, she dodges anything and everything when it comes to our mother.


Maybe she feels put in the middle?

Maybe try to have a relationship with her and don't mention your Mom? Does that make sense? Then she will know you value her for her. She can get to know her brother with no parental influence. Has she met your glider?

Maybe she avoids calling because she has no idea what to say about your Mom? It is not her fault if your Mom is nto ready for this yet.

In the long run, a sister is a wonderful thing to have! :) :) :)
(for me, far better than parents)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Maybe she feels put in the middle?

Maybe try to have a relationship with her and don't mention your Mom? Does that make sense? Then she will know you value her for her. She can get to know her brother with no parental influence. Has she met your glider?

Maybe she avoids calling because she has no idea what to say about your Mom? It is not her fault if your Mom is nto ready for this yet.

In the long run, a sister is a wonderful thing to have! :) :) :)
(for me, far better than parents)

She is the one who tells me about our mother in the first place and then runs after saying things.

And my poor family, neither of them know I am trans, that is a huge Taboo subject with my family, both my families, they have a big issue with the whole GLBTI community as it is.

[Bit]

I would so love to meet you again sometime when we could actually sit down and talk, Jen. I've always been glad you found me and introduced yourself in Vegas, but we only had what, thirty seconds? And I was SO utterly overwhelmed that whole time; I'm sure I didn't say anything much that was even coherent!

So, it's been our goal from the beginning *or at least my goal and Gryph didn't say no, lol* to have a place where friends can come and stay. I don't know how long it'll take, but someday we'll do it.

I guess I picture my Mom in Heaven (Which I don't even really believe in) being dissapointed in me.

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement, they (you) mean so much to me.

xoxoxo

{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}} You mean so much to me, also.

I feel pretty sad about your thinking your Mom would be disappointed in you. I freely admit that I certainly have no idea what she would have thought while she was alive, but oh honey... after a person has died and is on the Other Side (however we might think of the place, Heaven or whatever), they can see and understand so much!! Your Mom's not disappointed in you! She wants for you what she always wanted for you--to be happy.

She's watched over you as best she could, and she's proud of you. Why shouldn't she be? Why wouldn't any mother be proud of you? You're a wonderful person, honey. She loves you, she wants you to be happy, and she's proud of you.

xoxoxox

[Bit]

And my poor family, neither of them know I am trans, that is a huge Taboo subject with my family, both my families, they have a big issue with the whole GLBTI community as it is.

Yikes! That must make it difficult to relax and be yourself with them. I wish you all peace, comfort, and acceptance. May they come to understanding, and may the journey be smooth.

[Apocalipstic]

She is the one who tells me about our mother in the first place and then runs after saying things.

And my poor family, neither of them know I am trans, that is a huge Taboo subject with my family, both my families, they have a big issue with the whole GLBTI community as it is.

Yes, it is an issue and I so with it wasn't.

Have you met your half sister in person? Maybe she wants to be close, but it all messed up having to deal with your mother and be in the middle.
So sorry this is happening. I hope this year they will find understanding and you will get the answers you deserve!

You deserve to know your heritage, your people, your history.

You deserve happyness and acceptance!


I would so love to meet you again sometime when we could actually sit down and talk, Jen. I've always been glad you found me and introduced yourself in Vegas, but we only had what, thirty seconds? And I was SO utterly overwhelmed that whole time; I'm sure I didn't say anything much that was even coherent!

So, it's been our goal from the beginning *or at least my goal and Gryph didn't say no, lol* to have a place where friends can come and stay. I don't know how long it'll take, but someday we'll do it.



{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}} You mean so much to me, also.

I feel pretty sad about your thinking your Mom would be disappointed in you. I freely admit that I certainly have no idea what she would have thought while she was alive, but oh honey... after a person has died and is on the Other Side (however we might think of the place, Heaven or whatever), they can see and understand so much!! Your Mom's not disappointed in you! She wants for you what she always wanted for you--to be happy.

She's watched over you as best she could, and she's proud of you. Why shouldn't she be? Why wouldn't any mother be proud of you? You're a wonderful person, honey. She loves you, she wants you to be happy, and she's proud of you.

xoxoxox


:)
We did chat like 30 seconds, but you really made a great impression. I felt such warmth and strenth andf goodness talking to you!

I was pretty overwhelmed too, we spent a lot of time hiding in our room. Ha.

Thank you for saying that about my Mom. If she is out there, I hope she knows I try to honor her memory.

My father told me I never loved her when I agreed to meet my bio parents and when he found out I was gay.

[Sam]

My father told me I never loved her when I agreed to meet my bio parents and when he found out I was gay.

Sorry, but this is a LOAD of SHYT. Why do so many people use the "gay card"?

Shakinghead, sorry Jen, just struck a cord.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yeah I met her and lived with her back in 2000 or 2001, didn't last long I was out in my own place and she managed to fuck things up when I went out of town and went to jail.

[bigbutchmistie]

I was driving around doing errands this past Saturday. And the radio announcer came across and played this song, and asked that everyone pay attention to the words. I did. And within moments I related to it, and it made me cry like a baby... I thought I would post here because I know everyone here can relate to the first verse of the song:

Temporary Home
Carrie Underwood

A little boy six years old
A little too used to being alone
Another new mom and dad
Another school another house that will never be home
When people ask him how he likes this place
He looks up and says with a smile upon his face

This is my temporary home
Its not where i belong
Windows and rooms
That im passing through
This is just a stop
On the way to where im going
Im not afraid because i know
This is my temporary home

Young mom on her own
She needs a little help got nowhere to go
Shes looking for a job
Looking for a way out
Cause the halfway house will never be a home
At night she whispers to her baby girl
Someday we'll find a place here in this world

This is our temporary home
Its not where we belong
Windows and rooms
That we're passing through
This is just a stop
On the way to where we're going
Im not afraid because i know
This is our temporary home

Old man hospital bed
The room is filled with people he loves
And he whispers "dont cry for me
Ill see you all someday"
He looks up and says "i can see god's face."

This is my temporary home
Its not where i belong
Windows and rooms
That im passing through
This was just a stop
On the way to where im going
Im not afraid because i know
This was my temporary home

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry I have not been on. Travel, drama, etc.....

That song totally makes sense and affects so many people.

Have been reading about adoption a lot....will post more soon, just wanted to say hi!

[bigbutchmistie]

Hi Jen. I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone :)

[owen4u1904]

So, I tech. have 2 beautiful daughters instead of one, if you have looked at my profile you understand. I am soo happy I found this one and I like that this is in the support section. I had my first daughter when I 19, then my 2nd when I was 20. I had to give her up because of financial reasons and my family. Unfortunately, and in a good way, it is an "open" one but I do not get to see her much and it hurts. Damn, now I have to cry. lol...but, the couple who adopted her *Karly is related to my sister n law and therefore they did not want me hanging around them. So I was basically kept by my brother and sil *sister in law* to ever seeing her. Of course being in a small town I have many chances of bumping into the couple and Karly. I have never openly talked about it with my brother. But I started going to therapy for this when I was pregnant which was also tied into my trichotillomania help to. I stopped after my mom came and she said I was not being helped. I then tried again to stop the trich, but yet again it did not help. Just started back again 2 weeks ago and I have never been more ready to finally be able to let everyone know how I feel. Sorry for all of you who was adopted, but I am having my own personal breakdown on the other side of the computer right bout now... :(

[Apocalipstic]

So, I tech. have 2 beautiful daughters instead of one, if you have looked at my profile you understand. I am soo happy I found this one and I like that this is in the support section. I had my first daughter when I 19, then my 2nd when I was 20. I had to give her up because of financial reasons and my family. Unfortunately, and in a good way, it is an "open" one but I do not get to see her much and it hurts. Damn, now I have to cry. lol...but, the couple who adopted her *Karly is related to my sister n law and therefore they did not want me hanging around them. So I was basically kept by my brother and sil *sister in law* to ever seeing her. Of course being in a small town I have many chances of bumping into the couple and Karly. I have never openly talked about it with my brother. But I started going to therapy for this when I was pregnant which was also tied into my trichotillomania help to. I stopped after my mom came and she said I was not being helped. I then tried again to stop the trich, but yet again it did not help. Just started back again 2 weeks ago and I have never been more ready to finally be able to let everyone know how I feel. Sorry for all of you who was adopted, but I am having my own personal breakdown on the other side of the computer right bout now... :(

So sorry you are having a hard time, I think this time of year everyting seems worse, at least it does for me.

I think its good for us to hear from Mom's who had to give up a child, maybe in talking to you, I can learn to forgive what I have been through and it sounds like it will help you to have someone to talk to.

I am so srry that you are kept from her. How old is she?

Does it help or make it worse that you get to see her? Is the new family good to her?

[owen4u1904]

So sorry you are having a hard time, I think this time of year everyting seems worse, at least it does for me.

I think its good for us to hear from Mom's who had to give up a child, maybe in talking to you, I can learn to forgive what I have been through and it sounds like it will help you to have someone to talk to.

I am so srry that you are kept from her. How old is she?

Does it help or make it worse that you get to see her? Is the new family good to her?

My girls are exactly a year apart. The one I have with me was 6 on Jan 9, then my next one, Karly, the one I do not have will be 6 on Dec. 14. So for one month I girls who are the same age. And yes the new family is very good to her. They was not able to have babies and they was trying for around 10 years. So I guess you could kinda say I was meant to have her in a way. And it helps that I get to see her and run into her. I just wish my brother and his wife would accept it. Since we are in a small community and their name is kinda "well known" they do not it like it so much.

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry I let this thread go for a while, other issues in the forefront.

My biological mother got married and had 2 boys pretty immediately after giving me away. Knowing this made it harder, made me wonder what about me was not good enough to keep if she could just go ahead and have 2 more immediately.

I know it was her parents who made her give me away, but it is hard to bear.

But then I see posts like rbentley's and see that these things are still going on. Families are still pressuring young women to give away their children instead of offering to help financially so the baby's can be kept. Still many churches and people stand against using Birth Control. Still the closed adoptions continue. Thank you rbentley for showing me that some of the mother's are devastated too.

I guess maybe I thought that by 2010 things would be better. People more loving, more giving..and guess maybe a bit better, but not good enough.

I've read the books on adoption my therapist suggested and they were helpful in that they made me see that I have turned out wayyy better than I could have. I have other issues which have been more pressing so I have not done all the exercises they suggest yet, but will keep you all posted when I do.

Love to all my fellow adoptees!

[Semantics]

I adopted my daughter (who is just about to turn 16). She came to live with me the first time when she was four.

She doesn't see her biological mother. It's an open adoption, but bio mom has chosen not to contact us for years.

Recently, my daughter's grandmother (who we hadn't heard from for 3 years) sent us pictures of a baby girl and told us that bio mom had another baby. The letter didn't include much information other than a complaint that the baby was half black and telling us that bio mom was doing ok and working at Wendy's.

Apoc, your post just really resonated because I know she has to be thinking that her mother gave her away and then had another daughter.

I ask her how she feels and she mostly expresses worry that her sister is being neglected and abused just as she was. The background of the pictures made it clear that the environment was filthy and my daughter picked up on that immediately.

I wish there were some way to assure her that it wasn't about her in a way that she would believe it, but I worry that, like you, in twenty years, she is still going to be asking herself why she wasn't good enough.

If you can post or pm me links to the books you mentioned I would appreciate it. I'd like to read them myself.

[Apocalipstic]

I adopted my daughter (who is just about to turn 16). She came to live with me the first time when she was four.

She doesn't see her biological mother. It's an open adoption, but bio mom has chosen not to contact us for years.

Recently, my daughter's grandmother (who we hadn't heard from for 3 years) sent us pictures of a baby girl and told us that bio mom had another baby. The letter didn't include much information other than a complaint that the baby was half black and telling us that bio mom was doing ok and working at Wendy's.

Apoc, your post just really resonated because I know she has to be thinking that her mother gave her away and then had another daughter.

I ask her how she feels and she mostly expresses worry that her sister is being neglected and abused just as she was. The background of the pictures made it clear that the environment was filthy and my daughter picked up on that immediately.

I wish there were some way to assure her that it wasn't about her in a way that she would believe it, but I worry that, like you, in twenty years, she is still going to be asking herself why she wasn't good enough.

If you can post or pm me links to the books you mentioned I would appreciate it. I'd like to read them myself.

Just that your daughter has a parent (You) who understands and wants to help will mean the world to her in 20 years.

Does she remember the adoption and what things were like before?

I will send you the links in a minute...have to find them on Amazon. :)

[MsTinkerbelly]

Going to try to make sense and not ramble here. I am the Aunt of two incredible, wonderful children. My Sister could not have children from her body, so she adopted; they are the children of our hearts.

The birth parents were married, and between them they had 5 other children. When they found out my neice was on her way, they went the open adoption route because California would no longer pay extra for any additional children born to them on welfare, and they wanted to be in her life. Then they became pregnant with my nephew, and decided that they would go ahead and keep a boy! OMG, can you imagine what that would have done to my neice? Anyway, they wound up letting my nephew be adopted, and the last we heard 10 years or so ago, the family lost all 5 children due to neglect and abuse. My sister tried everything she could think of to find those children and bring them home with her, but no one would help.

So, now my neice and nephew live with the fact that they are blood brother and sister, they were given away, and their siblings are God knows where.

Thank you for this thread, and the insight I am given into what people think and ways in which I can possibly help the people I love.

Blessings (f)

[Apocalipstic]

Going to try to make sense and not ramble here. I am the Aunt of two incredible, wonderful children. My Sister could not have children from her body, so she adopted; they are the children of our hearts.

The birth parents were married, and between them they had 5 other children. When they found out my neice was on her way, they went the open adoption route because California would no longer pay extra for any additional children born to them on welfare, and they wanted to be in her life. Then they became pregnant with my nephew, and decided that they would go ahead and keep a boy! OMG, can you imagine what that would have done to my neice? Anyway, they wound up letting my nephew be adopted, and the last we heard 10 years or so ago, the family lost all 5 children due to neglect and abuse. My sister tried everything she could think of to find those children and bring them home with her, but no one would help.

So, now my niece and nephew live with the fact that they are blood brother and sister, they were given away, and their siblings are God knows where.

Thank you for this thread, and the insight I am given into what people think and ways in which I can possibly help the people I love.

Blessings (f)


Your post made my hair crawl. People need to use birth control!

I am so glad your niece and nephew ended up in a good place and that your sister was able to help keep them together and that they have you.

If they do ever get the opportunity to meet their blood relatives, I think it would be a god idea to make sure they clearly know that these people were likely brought up very differently than they were and may not be what they expect. (in fact it is likely considering the circumstances that they may not be pleased with what they find) There is not always a happy Oprah moment.

I wish you and your sister and the kids all happiness and peace! :)

[Apocalipstic]

I decided to post the books that my therapist suggested I read here, in case anyone else missed them or needs resources and does not want to read the entire thread.


Adoption Healing...a Path to Recovery by Joe Soll

Primal Wound by Nancy Veverier

Journey of the Adopted Self: A Quest for Wholeness by Betty Jean Lifton

The one I found most helpful was Primal Wound, but all had good information from different standpoints.

[SuperFemme]

This story broke my heart, and makes me wonder when there are going to be policies put into place regarding International Adoptions...I mean, a kid is not a puppy. You can't return it. On the other hand families are getting damaged children that end up putting everyone in the home in danger.

Return of adopted child angers Russia

Boy sent from US, with note, on 1-way flight

By Nataliya Vasilyeva and Kristin M. Hall, Associated Press | April 10, 2010
MOSCOW — Russia threatened to suspend all adoptions by US families yesterday after a 7-year-old boy adopted by a woman from Tennessee was sent alone on a one-way flight back to Moscow with a note saying he was violent and had severe psychological problems.

The boy, Artyom Savelyev, was put on a plane by his adopted grandmother, Nancy Hansen of Shelbyville.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called the actions by the grandmother “the last straw’’ in a string of US adoptions gone wrong, including three in which Russian children had died in the United States.

In an exclusive interview with ABC News’s George Stephanopoulos, President Dmitry Medvedev of Russia said the boy “fell into a very bad family.’’

“It is a monstrous deed on the part of his adoptive parents, to take the kid and virtually throw him out with the airplane in the opposite direction and to say, ‘I’m sorry I could not cope with it, take everything back’ is not only immoral but also against the law,’’ Medvedev said.

The cases have prompted outrage in Russia, where foreign adoption failures are reported prominently. Russian main TV networks ran extensive reports on the latest incident in their main evening news shows.
The education ministry immediately suspended the license of the group involved in the adoption — the World Association for Children and Parents, a Renton, Wash.-based agency — for the duration of an investigation.
In Tennessee, authorities were investigating the adoptive mother, Torry Hansen, 33.

Any possible freeze could affect hundreds of American families. Last year, nearly 1,600 Russian children were adopted in the United States.
“We’re obviously very troubled by it,’’ State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said in Washington when asked about the boy’s case. He told reporters that the United States and Russia share a responsibility for the child’s safety and Washington will work closely with Moscow to make sure adoptions are legal and appropriately monitored.

Asked whether he thought a suspension by Russia was warranted, Crowley said, “If Russia does suspend cooperation on the adoption, that is its right. These are Russian citizens.’’

The boy arrived unaccompanied in Moscow on a United Airlines flight on Thursday from Washington. Social workers sent him to a Moscow hospital for a medical checkup and criticized his adoptive mother for abandoning him.

The Kremlin children’s rights office said the boy was carrying a letter from his adoptive mother saying she was returning him because of his severe psychological problems.

“This child is mentally unstable. He is violent and has severe psychopathic issues,’’ the letter said. “I was lied to and misled by the Russian Orphanage workers and director regarding his mental stability and other issues.
“After giving my best to this child, I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends, and myself, I no longer wish to parent this child.’’
The boy was adopted in September from the town of Partizansk in Russia’s Far East.

Nancy Hansen, the grandmother, told the Associated Press that she and the boy flew to Washington and she put the child on the plane with the note from her daughter. She vehemently rejected assertions of child abandonment by Russian authorities, saying he was watched over by a United Airlines stewardess and the family paid a man $200 to pick the boy up at the Moscow airport and take him to the Russian Education and Science Ministry.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2010/04/10/return_of_adopted_child_angers_russia?mode=PF

[sweetcali]

When I saw this online all I could do was cry. I watched the news story also it made me sick to my stomach to think that people would do such a thing. With all of the news about the orphanages in the US and outside of hte US and how these children are treated; how on earth could someone NOT know that there may or may not be some issues that you as the future parent will have to deal with and learn how to help this child. In my thinking and brain I seriously do NOT understand the actions of these parents or the other parents I watched on the broadcast. How can someone be so self centered with regard to adoption of a child?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Hello people most of these children don't even know what a real hug is let alone ........

sweetcali

[Sam]

I decided to post the books that my therapist suggested I read here, in case anyone else missed them or needs resources and does not want to read the entire thread.


Adoption Healing...a Path to Recovery by Joe Soll

Primal Wound by Nancy Veverier

Journey of the Adopted Self: A Quest for Wholeness by Betty Jean Lifton

The one I found most helpful was Primal Wound, but all had good information from different standpoints.

Im curious, can you really heal from a closed adoption?

Never knowing anything.

Although im the happiest, level headed male right now, changed in so many ways. I still think and wonder.

I will never know anything, never find my info out. NYS SUCKS, but so many other states are the same.

It's the one thing that i cannot heal from, i WANT answers.

I wanna know who i look like, my heritage, my beginning. cause my present ROCKS!

[Rockinonahigh]

Sam.I hope you get the ansers you are looking for,just breath deep let it come to u.

[Apocalipstic]

This story broke my heart, and makes me wonder when there are going to be policies put into place regarding International Adoptions...I mean, a kid is not a puppy. You can't return it. On the other hand families are getting damaged children that end up putting everyone in the home in danger.

Return of adopted child angers Russia

Boy sent from US, with note, on 1-way flight

By Nataliya Vasilyeva and Kristin M. Hall, Associated Press | April 10, 2010
MOSCOW — Russia threatened to suspend all adoptions by US families yesterday after a 7-year-old boy adopted by a woman from Tennessee was sent alone on a one-way flight back to Moscow with a note saying he was violent and had severe psychological problems.

The boy, Artyom Savelyev, was put on a plane by his adopted grandmother, Nancy Hansen of Shelbyville.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called the actions by the grandmother “the last straw’’ in a string of US adoptions gone wrong, including three in which Russian children had died in the United States.

In an exclusive interview with ABC News’s George Stephanopoulos, President Dmitry Medvedev of Russia said the boy “fell into a very bad family.’’

“It is a monstrous deed on the part of his adoptive parents, to take the kid and virtually throw him out with the airplane in the opposite direction and to say, ‘I’m sorry I could not cope with it, take everything back’ is not only immoral but also against the law,’’ Medvedev said.

The cases have prompted outrage in Russia, where foreign adoption failures are reported prominently. Russian main TV networks ran extensive reports on the latest incident in their main evening news shows.
The education ministry immediately suspended the license of the group involved in the adoption — the World Association for Children and Parents, a Renton, Wash.-based agency — for the duration of an investigation.
In Tennessee, authorities were investigating the adoptive mother, Torry Hansen, 33.

Any possible freeze could affect hundreds of American families. Last year, nearly 1,600 Russian children were adopted in the United States.
“We’re obviously very troubled by it,’’ State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said in Washington when asked about the boy’s case. He told reporters that the United States and Russia share a responsibility for the child’s safety and Washington will work closely with Moscow to make sure adoptions are legal and appropriately monitored.

Asked whether he thought a suspension by Russia was warranted, Crowley said, “If Russia does suspend cooperation on the adoption, that is its right. These are Russian citizens.’’

The boy arrived unaccompanied in Moscow on a United Airlines flight on Thursday from Washington. Social workers sent him to a Moscow hospital for a medical checkup and criticized his adoptive mother for abandoning him.

The Kremlin children’s rights office said the boy was carrying a letter from his adoptive mother saying she was returning him because of his severe psychological problems.

“This child is mentally unstable. He is violent and has severe psychopathic issues,’’ the letter said. “I was lied to and misled by the Russian Orphanage workers and director regarding his mental stability and other issues.
“After giving my best to this child, I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends, and myself, I no longer wish to parent this child.’’
The boy was adopted in September from the town of Partizansk in Russia’s Far East.

Nancy Hansen, the grandmother, told the Associated Press that she and the boy flew to Washington and she put the child on the plane with the note from her daughter. She vehemently rejected assertions of child abandonment by Russian authorities, saying he was watched over by a United Airlines stewardess and the family paid a man $200 to pick the boy up at the Moscow airport and take him to the Russian Education and Science Ministry.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2010/04/10/return_of_adopted_child_angers_russia?mode=PF

While this is really sad for the children, it does not in any way surprise me, when still the thing to do is give children away in this country, with no answers for the humans just given away.

I guess it seems easier to adopt a child from a far away land when really there is no info for the child of his or her heritage.

You still hear how the children should be thankful how they could have ended up in orphanages or worse.

Whats worse is being given away to adoptive parents who are abusive.

Its horrible the child was sent back, but maybe its for the best.

[Apocalipstic]

I was flipping channels and on Lifetime and there is a movie on about closed adoptions.

It still is going on.

I know Lifetime is fiction...but people still think that if they dont have birth control around, no one will get pregnant. Its not true.

and if someone gets pregnant? give the child away, or endless visits to the doc and planned parenthood for an abortion.

ugh.