Changing last names

[stephfromMIT]

Amanda and I were in bed the other night. She was lazily stroking my pit hair and said,"Hun, I've been thinking." I got scared, and she smiled,"Baby, don't worry, we're still getting married." I calmed down and asked,"Then what is it?" She told me,"When we get married, I'm taking your last name." I smiled,"Amanda Thompson does sound nice."

So, did/will you or your SO change their last name if/when you marry/have commitment ceremony?

[Blaze]

That's really terrific for the both of you...
In the islands, I had 5 couples that are my friends, and they all did legally change their last names, be it to their butches last or their femme's last name. And only 1 broke up years later. It's not legal to marry in Hawaii so they did the Holy Union style. They complained of it being costly, but they did what they felt best for their needs. Wishing both of you happiness and congratulations!

[Canela]

I have always thought I might hyphen my name with his...I like the idea of having his name.

[Corkey]

Yes she did. So we went to LegalZoom.com got the package, filled out all the forms, did the local paper, went to court and voila, then we went to Canada and got married legally.
Came back and filed all the paperwork with creditors, drivers license, W4...etc. It cost us more than a heterosexuals marriage would, but it is still worth it. I would seriously look up what hoops you have to jump through, and I would seriously recommend Legal Zoom for the paperwork, it all went smoothly.

[thedivahrrrself]

I'm thinking "de (insert his last name)" sounds good ;)

[girl_dee]

Amanda and I were in bed the other night. She was lazily stroking my pit hair and said,"Hun, I've been thinking." I got scared, and she smiled,"Baby, don't worry, we're still getting married." I calmed down and asked,"Then what is it?" She told me,"When we get married, I'm taking your last name." I smiled,"Amanda Thompson does sound nice."

So, did/will you or your SO change their last name if/when you marry/have commitment ceremony?

Nope i have not and would not do this. Just not for me.

[DapperButch]

tantalizing says that if we marry/civil union, then she will take my last name. :)

[Kobi]

I wouldnt take a partners last name and I would be reluctant for them to take mine.

It's a highly personal thing, partly steeped in history i.e. the name change indicated the shift of "ownership" from father to husband. That dynamic isnt me in any way, thus it is not appealing.

Symbolically, even a hyphen indicates a "belonging to" in a way that makes me twitch.

I prefer thinking of marriage, which is legal here, as a partnership of two individuals who have chosen to be together, mindful that each brings their own history, individuality, and legacy to the whole. To me, each retaining their own name and own historical legacy reflects this.

[Bard]

Desd took my last name it meant a lot to me one thing I could give to her that I have never given to anyone

[cinnamongrrl]

This brings up and interesting line of thinking....I DO want to take Teddy's name when we get married....but then I will have a different name than my children. I suppose, their being both girls...its inevitable that this will occur at some time...I guess it would be silly of me to hold on to an old name for this reason. And truly, I dont have a name to go back to that's really mine....long story there....
';

[nekohl]

my last name is too awesome to give up.

[starryeyes]

Well, since my partner (Justin) and I both have the same name, (Lisa) it would be even more confusing if I took her last name.... Haha! People can barely keep us straight now.... Butch Lisa or girly Lisa!? Haha :-)

And all hell is still breaking loose after trying to change my last name back to my maiden name after my divorce. So no, never changin my name again. I might not even go back to my maiden name. Not sure. Ugh. The headaches of name changes. Just say NO! Haha :-)

[Little Fish]

I've thought about this a lot actually....

In my family's tradition, we each get a new name as we cross the threshold of adulthood. After a lengthy period (years) of spritual work etc, we relinquish our "baby" names to embrace one which is more fitting of who we are as adults. (but really, your Grandmother is always going to be calling you by your baby name so don't even think you're gonna escape that! Yes Gram I'm looking at you....) Some family members have elected to have this be their new legal name while other family members use this new "adult" name only among family and during ceremonial occasions.

My name is as unique to me as my fingerprint, it fits me perfectly. I hope my future partner would consider taking my name but it's not a deal-breaker at all. We each have different cultural traditions and opinions about names and certainly I respect Hers, whatever they are....

Having said that, it would be an immense honor if she chose to share my name. It's only in the receiving, that the gift is given.

[Reader]

A number of years ago I worked at an actively feminist agency. A straight woman got divorced from her husband, bought a new house and got an advanced degree all in the same year. These were big milestones in her life and she decided to have a naming ceremony/party to celebrate.

She invited people and instead of bringing gifts folks were to bring new names for her to consider, both first and last.

At the end of the night she chose both a new first and last name for herself and legally changed her name. She chose something with a feminist flavor that also "seemed" like her.

Pretty cool.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

D and I have discussed this a little bit, and haven't really come to any decision yet. I would be open to taking her name, only with a hyphen to mine.

I first got married when I was 16 yrs old. I was married to him for 27 yrs. When I married my second husband, I took his name. When he and I split, I wondered what name to change to.... my maiden name? I didn't know that girl anymore, I had been so far removed from HER I wouldn't have recognized her if I saw her on the street, you know? Then would I change it back to my first married name? That didn't seem to make any sense either, even though that was my 2 son's last name. But they were adults, so that really wasn't an issue. So I decided to just stay with my name I had from husband #2. I was used to the name.

Now, 11 yrs later, I have a business, and a career, and an identity of ME, with "that" name. I have kinda just grown into it, and it is just ME.

So when D and I get married next year, the question is whether I will just retain my name different from hers, or take hers, or do the hyphen thing. I think we need to discuss it more. I do like what someone said in an earlier post here about having something to give that no one else can give (paraphrasing). I would like that, I think.

APG

[Soft*Silver]

my sweet nephew, when he married his wife, took her name and she took his and they hyphenated them. Legally. Everyone was so pleased with this!

After my divorce, I kept my married name so my daughter would not have a different name than I.

When I was married to my butch husband we talked about taking names. Instead, he took an internet affair and away he went...

I am not in position to worry about taking anyone's name but I do still have my "married" name. My daughter is married so why do I keep it? Like someone said, I have a business, several degrees, etc that have that name and I have indeed grown into it.

But I also want to not have that name. I havent decided WHAT name I want. I cant remember the girl I was with my maiden name. In fact, my first name has long been forgotten and I go by my nickname, so all of that name is gone.

I chanced upon my nickname...I think I need to chance upon the last name too

IF I were to get married...I would take my SOs last name..but he would have to take mine too. So...I need to know what that is...lol

[Canela]

We each have different cultural traditions and opinions about names and certainly I respect Hers, whatever they are....

Having said that, it would be an immense honor if she chose to share my name. It's only in the receiving, that the gift is given.


I loved what you said here, Little Fish, thank you. I couldn't have put it any better.

I just want to explain why I feel the way I do:

I am a hispanic (latina) queer stone femme...I prefer partnering with a TG/FtM individual. I am from a very culturally submissive background (in my world/region/family). However--

I come from very activist parents (Chicanos ala Gloria Anzaldua)--my mother a feminist, my father a union organizer/steward--but that's another story...trust me, I am NOT a pushover...I am a strong, smart, honest, opinionated, independent, loving, amazing woman...I will not lower my head nor my standards for anyone...I do what I want, how I want, when I want, (hopefully in a very fair and loving way, but sometimes not)...

When I marry I would like to give something very precious and important to my partner. Not my power or voice, but my heart and my commitment to the relationship.

Even if I didn't partner with masculine identified personalities, and I chose to be married/civil union to someone other than that, to me--I would want to retain my own heritage/culture/traditions while adopting those of my partner, even if he/she is not of the same culture.

So, the hyphen comes from my consenting to take his name as a partner to our union--a gift of myself to him. He is my other half at that point, hence the hyphen. Half me, half him...

[stephfromMIT]

Yes she did. So we went to LegalZoom.com got the package, filled out all the forms, did the local paper, went to court and voila, then we went to Canada and got married legally.
Came back and filed all the paperwork with creditors, drivers license, W4...etc. It cost us more than a heterosexuals marriage would, but it is still worth it. I would seriously look up what hoops you have to jump through, and I would seriously recommend Legal Zoom for the paperwork, it all went smoothly.

We live in MA, so I'm 99% sure all we have to is indicate our "married name" on the marriage license.

[Leigh]

If I ever do get married, which I hope one day that I will, I would like to take my SO's last name :)

[laruss]

I still have my married name, which I only took so I would have the same name as my children it meant nothing to me. I was not property, it was just easier to have the same name.

My children are grown and are taking on new names. I have kept my last name because I would not go back to my maiden name. And quite frankly I like the energy of my name, it is who I am.

I changed my first name a few years ago so I know the importance of names. I know what it means to change your name and thus your identity.

I never thought I would change my last name again.

And then... something changed.

For the right person, a person I decided to share a family with, a life with; if their name was important to them I would change. I would gladly take their name and share a common bond within our family. It would be our commitment to each other, to our family, to our lives together.

Yes, I will gladly take your name.

[apretty]

I would love to change mine to Glass; George Glass.

[Corkey]

We live in MA, so I'm 99% sure all we have to is indicate our "married name" on the marriage license.

Make sure, go to the court house and ask for the most up to date regulations, trust me, because it is not yet legal in the US, you may have other papers to file. And they cost too.

[LaneyDoll]

When I got married at 24, I changed my name & did so gladly. I endured YEARS of people making fun of my maiden name, mispronouncing it, being unable to spell it-even after telling them countless times. Now, I have a last name that you can at least pronounce when you see it.

Riley does not want to get married. And, I am still trying to finalize the divorce that I have actively been working to obtain for over a year now; I have not lived with the ex for over four years. Divorce is NOT designed for people who have limited means. As such, when Riley says "I am never getting married" I reply, "Good, then we can just live in sin."

I do not think I would ever change my name again. I have the name that my kids have-and that is enough for me.

:sparklyheart:

[Daywalker]

She Hyphenated to add my last name.

I added Day Walker in as my legal middle name now.

:vampirebat:

:daywalker:

[Martina]

There are a number of partriarchal cultures in which women are viewed as property -- as most cultures do -- but in which wives do not change their names.

There are few commonalities among those that do or that don't. So the custom itself does not consistently MEAN anything.

One take on it could be that in cultures where women do change their names, they were more openly welcomed into their husband's kinship group. They were not simply a necessity of exogamy, strangers brought in and tolerated in order to produce the next generation.

I don't subscribe to this theory either. Similar behaviors mean very different things in different cultures.

[Estella]

We live in MA, so I'm 99% sure all we have to is indicate our "married name" on the marriage license.

Yep, you will. If you're keeping your "maiden" names, just write it in.

It was important to my wife and I that we share a last name. However, since neither of us any reason to be committed to our fathers' names, we chose one for ourselves at random. No muss, no fuss ...

[~ocean]

Amanda and I were in bed the other night. She was lazily stroking my pit hair and said,"Hun, I've been thinking." I got scared, and she smiled,"Baby, don't worry, we're still getting married." I calmed down and asked,"Then what is it?" She told me,"When we get married, I'm taking your last name." I smiled,"Amanda Thompson does sound nice."

So, did/will you or your SO change their last name if/when you marry/have commitment ceremony?

I am legally married to my ex> we have since broken up .. I did take her name . after 17 yrs of only having a commitment ceremony it seemed befitting at the time. lol stroking ur pit hair .. details that r private yes ?

[Nomad]

my last name came from the person who adopted me when i was a child. that adoption saved my life so, no i wouldnt change it. (not that it's much of an issue in my life! :D )

[yotlyolqualli]

Changing names lol

My family, and friends from my childhood, call me Missy. Besides ruddebegga, my mother's "pet" name for me lol, I was only ever Missy (or Malissa Jane!! when Mother was ticked at me lol). As I started to have nieces and nephews, I became Aunt Missy. After I turned 18, to me, Missy sounded as "babyish" as Johnny would to John or Andy would to Andrew... so I TRIED to get people to call me "Malissa", my given name.

They just didn't get it LOL

So, when I realized I was gay, at the age of 30, I came out, in a rather big way... and all in one fell swoop. As my circle of friends grew and my "chosen" family began, I began introducing myself as Lissa, shortened from Malissa.

One of my sisters really struggled HARD with that! She said, "Mom called you Missy, she would be upset that you would change that." I asked... soooo, she called you Susie and now everyone calls you Sue...??" That, apparently, was different LOL. She came around. None of my "given" family call me Lissa, I am still Missy, Aunt Missy and even Grandma Missy, but they have accepted, fully, that my expanded circle of friends and chosen family, call me Lissa.

Having said that... my last name, which is special to me, would be hard to let go of. However, given the way I was raised, what I believe and how I feel about it, I would gladly take the last name of the person I would share my life with. Not because I would feel "owned' nor that I "belonged to" but because it would, in me, evoke a feeling of "belonging WITH".

Just my long winded 2 cents worth... :)

[Lady Pamela]

I am a bit old fashioned I guess.
I truely think that to change my name when married, is not only a compliment and gift to who I marry.
But it is also an honor and a gift to myself from who I marry.


When that day comes that is...smiles


.

[Toughy]

hhmmmmmmm

Seems this question brings up a whole bunch of hetero-normative crap........

Femmes are the ones talking about taking the last name of their partner. Why is the assumption that femme should change/hyphenate her name and not butch/tg/trans/man/masculine of center/_____ changing/hyphenating their last name?

I will not change my last name under any circumstances. I also would highly object to anyone I marry taking my last name. The name change thing is about transfer of property and people are not property (or corporations....snort). I also would not hyphenate my last name, but I am unsure about her using a hyphen....probably not.

[Lady Pamela]

hhmmmmmmm

Seems this question brings up a whole bunch of hetero-normative crap........

Femmes are the ones talking about taking the last name of their partner. Why is the assumption that femme should change/hyphenate her name and not butch/tg/trans/man/masculine of center/_____ changing/hyphenating their last name?

I will not change my last name under any circumstances. I also would highly object to anyone I marry taking my last name. The name change thing is about transfer of property and people are not property (or corporations....snort). I also would not hyphenate my last name, but I am unsure about her using a hyphen....probably not.

Very good points you made.
And I myself choose to do this but if my mate wanted, I would not be oposed to the opposite.
I do it for love reason not ownership.

I guess it is all in the intent and actions taken.
But I do understand your postion on this.

Also it would have to be with and for,
someone who I truely trusted and did not feel like an object to.


.

[Corkey]

I guess like most things in life it comes down to personal preferences and couples choices. I'm happy my wife changed hers, she is too, other than us no one else's opinion matters.

[thedivahrrrself]

my last name came from the person who adopted me when i was a child. that adoption saved my life so, no i wouldnt change it. (not that it's much of an issue in my life! :D )


I can relate to this so much. My dad adopted me, and his decision to do that forever altered the course of my life for the better. It would take a lot for me to part with my last name. Plus, I'm a big fan of alliteration, and it sounds nice paired with my first name.

That being said, I don't see harm in taking a last name. When you marry, you create a family, whether or not there are children involved. And it's nice when that family shares something like a name. But it's a personal choice thing.

I think celebs have it best. They use one name professionally and one personally. That sounds like the most attractive option to me.

Marriage is a long way off for me; I still have an empire to build :)

[PurpleQuestions84]

i think creating some kind of hybrid last name so you both could get new names would be cool

[Dance-with-me]

When I got legally married to my ex, I took his name hyphenated with mine so that I could have a name connection to our grandkids who we were raising. It really did make it a LOT easier -- people just don't question your connection when you have the same last name.

A few tips for those who are considering it:
-- if you get legally married in a state that allows legal marriage, you can get your name changed at Social Security even if your state does not honor that marriage
-- whether or not your name is changed with social security doesn't mean squat if your local laws do not recognize your marriage: Some local laws only require a ss name change to then get your driver's license and other stuff changed, others refuse to honor it. Interestingly, spouse and I were both able to get our drivers' licenses changed while our state still considered our marriage illegal, probably because we went separately and we both have names that could possibly be used for someone of the other gender (spouse's far less so, but considering that he has a spanish last name, they probably assumed that any country that might name their son Jesus might also name him _____). But other same sex couples were turned away.
-- IF you are turned away from getting your DL changed and are told that you need a court order, after you have your SS name changed, fight it up through the state government. Several couples were able to get the state to PAY for the costs of getting their court-ordered name change.
-- Do NOT assume that you know the rules for a name change based on old information or the info from another state: Every state has different laws and procedures.

Fortunately, when my state finally started recognizing out of state marriages as civil unions, they also made it so that we can use the local courts to get legally divorced, and made it so that name changes can be requested with a marriage OR divorce... Since I won't be allowed to maintain any legal relationship with the kids (other than grandma with zero legal rights), I'm taking my own name back. :(

[Dance-with-me]

Just to clarify: If you get legally married in a state that allows it, you can go to your LOCAL social security office, in your own state, even if your state prohibits same-sex marriage.

[Greyson]

I have changed my first and middle names in my lifetime. The first name change came about the age of 14. I was named after my mom and I was so not that. The name I began to use in junior high was not a feminine sounding name. I remember my grandmother said to me, "You could at least spell it with an "e" at the end of your name to make it more feminine. That name stuck.

Upon my transition I changed my middle name which was the same as my chosen first name. That is when I took Greyson. I still have my legal junior high first name.

As for my surname, I would never change it. I am a chicano. Half and half really. Sometimes it feels like this is my only connection left to my Latino heritage and I will never let go of it.

[kittygrrl]

For me it's more about how you personally feel about it..i wouldn't feel like property if i took the name of my lover..and this doesn't feel like a bad thing (since I'm his & he is mine) .. it's all relative..we are here for a short time and so if it makes you and your lover happy then do it or not..life has enough built in rules no need to make more..(imo)

[TenderDaddy]

I echo this. I would never insist on it but it sure would make my heart swell up if she wanted to.


Desd took my last name it meant a lot to me one thing I could give to her that I have never given to anyone

[Kent]

When and if I ever marry, I'd want and hope my girl would want to change her last name to mine.

[chai~]

I would NOT change my last name, would never want to be absorbed like that, and the thought of someone wanting to take my last name makes me cringe......it's mine and I don't want to share it~

When in a relationship, my partners friend asked if I would change if we married....I was taken aback...so because I am femme, and my partner was butch, I was "expected" to change my name??? WTH!!!! No No No thankyouverymuch!!!!!

[ValentineTomboy]

I think that it's different for every couple. There's no wrong answer. For me, yes I would love it if she took my last name. It would make me enormously proud. But only if she wanted to.

[Cailin]

I wouldn't mind one bit changing my last name (current, atleast). I have no attatchment to it- I didnt know my father. So changing it, would actually be a bit of a "lift off the shoulders". However, recently I've been wanting to take my grandmothers maiden name. Now that, I would have to think about changing from (I'm very into my family's history.) But in the end, I see it as this : I love you, and if it makes you happy, something so little as a name change, then why the hell not!

[MsTinkerbelly]

I changed my last name to my Wife's, and I debated a long time before I did it because I wondered if it was even required these days to be "the same". We talked about making a new name...a combo of our maiden names, but I just didn't like the way it sounded. Our last name is actually her hetro-married name...but it's who she is after so many years, and it fits us.

I like having the same last name...it just feels special to me, like an us against the world kind of thing.

[tantalizingfemme]

I would change my last name to my beloved's, no questions asked; to me it is an honor. What I would also do is keep my maiden name as my middle name as I want to keep that connection with my son.

I was thinking about the idea of combining last names and if Dapper and I got married and we combined last names it would sound like hurl. lol

Not gonna work.....

[suebee]

Before we got married we discussed if we should change our names. Our marriage is recognized legally, so it would have been easy to do. For us the best choice would have been an amalgamation of the two names - our names are too long to be hyphenated, and we didn't care for the option of one losing her birth name to take on the other's birth name. Unfortunately the only combination of the two names that we could come up with was "Rabies". The thought of: "Rabies! Table for two for the Rabies family!" effectively ended the debate. :| So it's Mrs. and Mrs. Suebee and Dandy until further notice. lol

[Heavenleahangel]

I would hope that my hubby/partner/spouse (whichever term floats your boat here) would honor me with their last name. I am old fashioned like that-especially of we will be having/raising children. Just my 2 cents.

[Daring_Dreamer]

When my fiance and I get married I'm taking their last name. They didn't ask me to, it was something I choose and it make them really happy when I told them I wanted to do that. For me its a sign of commitment and honor. A sign to the world that this is the person who holds and protects my heart.

[julieisafemme]

I am in the process of changing my name. I am very happy to do so. I did not change my name in my first marriage. My spouses last name is nice. My maiden name is very hard to spell and pronounce and I won't miss that.

[s0litude]

I would never insist on it but it sure would make my heart swell up if she wanted to.

Agreed! In the future, I'd be honoured if she chose to, but it would be just that: her choice. But c'mon... I'd want her to want my last name, but I just wouldn't push it.

My ex of 2 years did take my last name because...

1. She thought my last name was great
2. She wasn't especially fond of her last name
3. The whole rigid gender expectations thing was more important to her than me

Afterwards, she took her religious name-- and kept it even after she re-married.

[sofimichi]

I have a super long Hispanic last name, and my fiance has a short name.
I think I will change my name to hers. Mrs. ___ ___ sounds good to me.
Oh my god. I am so excited!!!

[Ginger]

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

[DapperButch]

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?

Just wondering.

:smh:

ETA: Am I less of a misogynist if it actually tickles her fancy more than it does mine? Is she is misogynist? Or are we just bad feminists? So many questions....

[Soon]

Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?

Just wondering.

:smh:

ETA: Am I less of a misogynist if it actually tickles her fancy more than it does mine? Is she is misogynist? Or are we just bad feminists? So many questions....

Isn't Island Scout speaking for herself and what she finds desirable in a partner when it comes to this issue? I don't see anyone calling you or TF a misogynist or a bad feminist. She was expressing a personal preference.

[CherylNYC]

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

The same goes for me.

Dapper, although I personally find it maddening that ALL the people who have volounteered to change their name to match their partner's in this thread are femmes, and ALL the people who have noted a preference for their partner to change her name to their own are butch or trans, which not coincidentally matches a heteronormative custom of men taking ownership of the women who marry them, even I haven't said "misogyny" yet. You did. Hmmm.

Everyone is free to change their name however they want. I may not understand it, but it's their name and their choice. Several people have discussed blending names, but so far NOT ONE butch or trans person has volounteered to take the name of the femme they marry. I'm getting a little cranky about that.

[DapperButch]

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

The same goes for me.



Why is that? Why wouldn't you fall in love with a person who would want that? Who/what is that "kind of person"?

[CherylNYC]

Why is that? Why wouldn't you fall in love with a person who would want that? Who is that "kind of person"?

Names are powerful symbols. I wouldn't expect a person who I partnered with or married to change her name to mine because her name is her own identity, and I wouldn't want her to change something as primary as her identity in order to marry me. That would be an absorption of her autonomous personhood into mine that would not feel comfortable for me.

For exactly the same reasons, I wouldn't want to be with a person who expected me to subsume my identity into hers. Should a prospective partner ever ask that of me the extra irritant in her request, which would be coming from a masculine person, would come about because that very symbolic gesture would carry the freight of thousands of years of autonomous males legally dominating disenfranchised females. Even if the earth shifted on its axis and I were to consider marriage to a person who was not masculine, marriage has meant ownership of one person by another for so long that I'm particularly prickly about anything that would appear to diminish my autonomy in a legally sanctioned relationship.

I understand that butches are not men. Butches and femmes get to choose the rituals that work for them, those choices may or may not reflect heteronormative values, and it's not my business to judge if they do. I just won't be going anywhere near that road, much less traipse down it myself. Those are my personal choices, and I feel pretty strongly about them.

That said, trans men usually get pretty bent out of shape when people say they're not really men. So when men of any kind expect women, femmes or otherwise, to reflexively change their names when they marry, you can bet your next mortgage payment that I'm going to get cranky. Men and women choose to do this all the time. Their lives, their choices. The part that really freaks me out is that no one is questioning why women reflexively change their names and men never consider doing so. Oh, perhaps they might hyphenate, but when Joe Smith marries Jane Johnson, they never become the Johnsons. Has anyone asked why that is since… ohhh… 1979?

What kind of person would expect me to change my name to their's when I marry? That would be a person who has never met me.

[DapperButch]

Names are powerful symbols. I wouldn't expect a person who I partnered with or married to change her name to mine because her name is her own identity, and I wouldn't want her to change something as primary as her identity in order to marry me. That would be an absorption of her autonomous personhood into mine that would not feel comfortable for me.

For exactly the same reasons, I wouldn't want to be with a person who expected me to subsume my identity into hers. Should a prospective partner ever ask that of me the extra irritant in her request, which would be coming from a masculine person, would come about because that very symbolic gesture would carry the freight of thousands of years of autonomous males legally dominating disenfranchised females. Even if the earth shifted on its axis and I were to consider marriage to a person who was not masculine, marriage has meant ownership of one person by another for so long that I'm particularly prickly about anything that would appear to diminish my autonomy in a legally sanctioned relationship.

I understand that butches are not men. Butches and femmes get to choose the rituals that work for them, those choices may or may not reflect heteronormative values, and it's not my business to judge if they do. I just won't be going anywhere near that road, much less traipse down it myself. Those are my personal choices, and I feel pretty strongly about them.

That said, trans men usually get pretty bent out of shape when people say they're not really men. So when men of any kind expect women, femmes or otherwise, to reflexively change their names when they marry, you can bet your next mortgage payment that I'm going to get cranky. Men and women choose to do this all the time. Their lives, their choices. The part that really freaks me out is that no one is questioning why women reflexively change their names and men never consider doing so. Oh, perhaps they might hyphenate, but when Joe Smith marries Jane Johnson, they never become the Johnsons. Has anyone asked why that is since… ohhh… 1979?

What kind of person would expect me to change my name to their's when I marry? That would be a person who has never met me.

Want and expect are two different things. I wouldn't suggest anyone date someone who "expected" someone to change their name.

IslandScout's word was "want", it was not "expect". A whole different ball of wax. If the post said "expect", I would have given the post a "thanks", instead of a response.

[SimpleAlaskanBoy]

I changed mine already once, to take my mother's last name and a new first and middle when I started transition. because my father isn't supportive at all mad mom is, so.
Daisy's current last name is from the ex husband...it fits her though and if she wanted to keep it, or hypenate it it would be okay with me...it's not the name I am marrying it's her. Still it would be nice to hear Mrs. SAB.


~SAB

[macele]

i've never liked the idea of changing my last name. and i would not expect anyone to change theirs to mine. i'll never ask. i am butch. but i don't think that has anything to do with why i don't care for the change of last names. when i originally said, "no way!", being butch never crossed my mind. i'm ok with each person hyphenating and adding the others name. that's being fair lol.

[imperfect_cupcake]

my ex wife offered to take mine instead of me taking hers. which was nice because of the automatic assumption that a femme will drop her own family history cause she's feminine. and that's what you do, right? you accommodate cause one is feminine. its traditional.
I said no. her family line is as important to her as mine is to me. we were going to hyphenate, my name first, it sounded better that way.

I'm really, really glad we didn't. we didn't have the money at the time. still expensive as hell even when legal.

changing my name back would have added extra insult to the whole process of divorce.

I won't be taking anyone's name. marriage is about love for me. my dad and his wife never changed names. my mom and her husband didn't. my cousins didn't. the few heterosexual marriages I know (my heterosexual mates don't believe in marriage, mostly) did not take the husband's name. they just didn't think it was part of a loving relationship to give up their family identity.

I'm sure plenty of people want to but until I see the norm of men taking women's names and thus the equal of butches taking femmes names, I don't think its very attractive. it's one item of heterosexism I don't buy into. mostly I'm with people who are just who they are and that just so happens to be butch. there is no inherent heterosexism in that. but the whole femme takes butch name? yeah. not comfortable with that. to me personally, that *does* feel like doing it cause the hets do it (aka that's what you do when you get married).

[MsTinkerbelly]

I was very proud to take Kasey's name, even if it wasn't originally hers; it wasn't expected or demanded, it was offered with love and the deep committment of "us".

There is absolutely nothng wrong with taking someone else's name, and i damn sure didn't disappear because of it.

To each his/her own.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by IslandScout
The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Posted in response by DapperButch:
Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?



No, DapperButch, I wasn't saying that you're a misogynist. That's quite a leap. I was saying, a person who wants me to change my name to hers would likely have a different set of expectations about relationships than I would and maybe, she would have more heteronormative values than I do, not that I don't love the butch/femme delineation. If it works for you and TF, that's cool.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by IslandScout
The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Posted in response by DapperButch:
Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?



No, DapperButch, I wasn't saying that you're a misogynist. That's quite a leap. I was saying, a person who wants me to change my name to hers would likely have a different set of expectations about relationships than I would and maybe, she would have more heteronormative values than I do, not that I don't love the butch/femme delineation. If it works for you and TF, that's cool.

Hey, IslandScout. It was a bit of a leap, I admit. I should have asked why you wouldn't fall in love with someone who would want that, prior to throwing out possible reasons. I am reading you to say that you have assumptions attached to people who would want that.

I do think there could be a number of reasons why someone may want someone to change their name when they marrry and it is not always about heternormative values (especially in the LGBT community). I believe that this is a huge generalization which isn't fair to those people who live a queer life and do not adhere to heteronormative ways of living. To me, your post felt shaming. Like there is something wrong with a person if they would "want" that. That is what triggered me, as my head went to those who have already posted here that they took their partner's name/desired to take their partner's name/want their partner to take their name, etc. I felt their cringe (not just my own).

However, I think I was a bit aggressive with my post, and I apologize for that.

As I said in my post to Cheryl, if you had said, "expect", I would have been right there with you.

[stepfordfemme]

I have wanted to change my legal name for years.

My legal last name is my father's last name. My mothers last name is her maiden name she reclaimed after their divorce. My mother and I were both victims of family violence. BUT...

Because I am legally a child born of a marriage --when I went to petition for a name change --I must not only publicize it locally, I must also stand before a judge and let it stand for any members of the public to object.

At the time, I lived in the same small town as my father so I was afraid to spend all that money to do so, and have him kill my name change so easily.

It's very personal, but to me my next legal name will be my "family" name. It will be symbolic of a commitment to both my partner and my future children. It's about unification to me personally.

I don't care whether it's mixed, mashed, my partners or chosen as something new. I want to let go of my given name and it's both easier and a conscious choice.

[Sparkle]

I am engaged and I will not change my name when we marry.

I don't feel any pressure or sense of obligation to change it or NOT change it.

My decision to not change it is not tied to my feminist principles or my beliefs about the butch/femme dynamic or my desire to queer-marriage. It's nought to do with politics or legal rights.

My reasons are *all about me*

My surname was given to me by my adopted, abusive father when he married my mother, and he got it from his deadbeat, abusive dad before that, it does not have personal significance to me in a family/genealogical sense.

In fact, for many years I considered legally changing my surname to the original one on my birth certificate (my mother's maiden name) because that family name does have significant personal meaning for me.

But after a lot of time and thought, I chose not to because I decided my name is MY name. I've earned it. I've grown in to it. I've made it mine. No genealogical strings attached.

It is, for me, a symbol of my journey to learn who I am, to be who I am, and to love myself as I am.

And that is one of the reasons I will continue to keep my name when I'm married.

I also have a mother who has done the great name shuffle her entire life, and for me, that process has embodied of her lack of sense-of-self, her lack of having a personal identity separate from her husband. When she married husband #3 she decided to revert to her maiden name, having already taken two husbands' names before that, I had hoped that it signaled a shift in my mother away from her co-dependent patterns, I wished it meant she had found a sense of herself again. Sadly it hasn't meant either of those things, but that's her work - her journey - hers to figure out. I feel fortunate to be able to see and understand that about her and to have taken very valuable lessons from watching her journey.

And so another reason it is important to me, to keep my name (and my partner his), is because it symbolizes, for me, two whole and complete individuals joining together in a partnership for life.

Not the melding or merging of two-to-one which traditional marriage ceremonies and rituals seem to be so fond of. Not the "you complete me" romanticism we (general we) were raised to believe in.



Though I should add that Hack does call me "future Mrs. D*", colloquially and playfully, and it makes me smile. He also calls me his "Old Lady" because I love the television show 'Sons of Anarchy' - that term of endearment I like not so much. :P

[Ginger]

Hey, IslandScout. It was a bit of a leap, I admit. I should have asked why you wouldn't fall in love with someone who would want that, prior to throwing out possible reasons. I am reading you to say that you have assumptions attached to people who would want that.

I do think there could be a number of reasons why someone may want someone to change their name when they marrry and it is not always about heternormative values (especially in the LGBT community). I believe that this is a huge generalization which isn't fair to those people who live a queer life and do not adhere to heteronormative ways of living. To me, your post felt shaming. Like there is something wrong with a person if they would "want" that. That is what triggered me, as my head went to those who have already posted here that they took their partner's name/desired to take their partner's name/want their partner to take their name, etc. I felt their cringe (not just my own).

However, I think I was a bit aggressive with my post, and I apologize for that.

As I said in my post to Cheryl, if you had said, "expect", I would have been right there with you.


No problem, don't worry about it. Thanks for letting me see more where you're coming from.

[Dude]

I have known two men personally who took their wives last name.Twenty years ago, in fact.
One , even gave up his law practice for a time, to be Mr mom to twins while his wife completed her residencies required to be a Doctor. That last part, is what marriage is about , so much more than just a name. He was all in to supporting his wife and people were completely shocked by his devotion.

When my mother became pregnant she gave up her career that had just begun to be a stay at home mother.Her self esteem and independence were deeply affected and she became a stand by your Man woman.
To the point of allowing my father to name me , after a prior girlfriend of his. I know my mom felt beat
down by This and my dads many abusive ways. In honor of her , I am considering a change.

[*Anya*]

This is a little bumpy today, bear with me. I am fighting a migraine (and am losing).

My last name is my ex-husbands name.

I originally kept it after our divorce because of the children and because I did not like my father's/family last name ( I was about to write "maiden" name and thought ick on the maiden).

If my GF and I get married, I will change my name. Not because she would expect me to but because I really like her last name!

Most of all:

Because I really, really like the thought of becoming one with her in a concrete, symbolic way.

When we go away, hotel personnel have already called me Anya Smith ( for example) because she is D. Smith.

I thought it so cool on so many levels. They were assuming, in a positive way, that we were married and that my last name was the same as hers.

It tickled me and she loved it.

I know that we will marry at some point.

I also know that I will change my name to hers. I also know that it will not make me one bit less of a feminist to do so.

( I still wish that we had a bride smilie).

[~baby~doll~]

When O/our state has marriage equity i will take Her name or use a hyphen. i would leave it to Her which one i will do.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I kept my name once upon I married the baby daddy, for tax purposes a - was added and his last name was attached....


We're not a marriage household, so no exchanging here! I do plan on a branding or cutting, for him... not me :vampire:

[princessbelle]

I kept my ex husband's last name only because i liked it better than my maiden name.

I'm not opposed to changing it to something else in the future.

Ya never know....:sunglass:

[Kobi]

Want and expect are two different things. I wouldn't suggest anyone date someone who "expected" someone to change their name.

IslandScout's word was "want", it was not "expect". A whole different ball of wax. If the post said "expect", I would have given the post a "thanks", instead of a response.



Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[Bard]

This is just my opinion Desd took my last name when we married it was not about owning or her belonging to me we are equals in all aspects it was not so that we could be in a hetro like state . It was one thing that I had Never given to anyone and it was precious to me that she would take my name was a honor to me as we blended our lives two into one yet neither losing our own identity. None of my brothers have our family name they were adopted by their step father I am the only one that carries the name that was gifted to me by my father who I am very much like. I would have considered taking desd name if it had been important to her or a hyphenated thing and we also want to have children and they will carry on the name. my daughter has her mothers last name and my name is her middle name. i would never look down my nose at those who have no wish to change last name this is just us and what is right for us

[Loren_Q]

A name is personal. How one views it, what it's importance is belongs to the individual. There's no right/wrong thing here. What wouldn't be good is coercion or manipulation; the "If you love me you would" type of thing.

Now with that said my spouse took my name. We're both butch and in our relationship she is the dominant partner.

I didn't ask, want or expect her to take my name, not did I expect or want to take hers. On our 5 year anniversary she said she wanted to change her last name to mine because:
1. She didn't care for either parent (nor did they care for her).
2. The legal spelling of my last name is uniquely mine (long story).

I was surprised and glad for her. I didn't have a personal stake in the matter, but felt that if she's getting what she wants, then it's a good thing.

It's also a hoot that my Caucasian partner has an Asian last name. She's had a few interesting moments because of it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

OK how many butches are going to take the femmes name, if it'about sharing a name?

[Ginger]

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.





Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

[Kobi]

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout


Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.

[tantalizingfemme]

[QUOTE=Kobi;860805]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

[PoeticSilence]

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

[Ginger]

Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.




You're right, and I was the one who wasn't clear.

[Kobi]

[QUOTE=Kobi;860805]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?


I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth. :)

[tantalizingfemme]

[quote=tantalizingfemme;860840]


I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth. :)


Thanks. Was just checking. ;)

[Ginger]

I like how we're all playing so nice with each other.

[tantalizingfemme]

As a feminist who believes in supporting all women, without judgment, I just want to say yay to those who do choose to change their last name and yay to those who don't. It all boils down to personal choice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

[VintageFemme]

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

I would definitely take my partner's name. And not for any of the reasons to or not to that I've been reading about in the thread, but simply because it's a lovely old school tradition and one that I personally find endearing and a small measure or token in sharing of my love. I adore the idea of the sharing in a name and two becoming one and I would have no issue in taking her name.

Having said that though, I do have to also say that I really like what you two have done together. It's sweet and unique and seems quite apropos. Nicely done.

[tantalizingfemme]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family".

I guess the first that I think when I read this is so what? What if they choose to do that?

[~baby~doll~]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.



The history is true. This is certain.
Taking a name can be seen as you say just another brand of the status quo. True.
Not taking a spouses name or using a hyphen makes a statement as well. True
The fact that lesbians and gays want to get married at all is in a way a support of the old time heterosexual institution.
i would marry my partner in support of equality. i will take her name as a statement for self that i belong and She wants me. There can be many reasons for taking the name or hyphenating a name.

[MsTinkerbelly]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

All of what you say is probably true, and were it not for tradition and the norm of "our" culture to take the "masculine" surname, we would all have our own surnames forever and ever amen.

I work/worked with a mostly hispanic population; mostly fresh from Mexico or first generation citizens, where the women (most not all) did not take their husband's name when they married, instead they kept their family names.
They were just as married as i was, just as committed as we are...it really is a matter of culture and personal taste.

There really is no right or wrong, no good or bad, it is a very personal choice. I am no better or worse than you for taking Kasey's name, but for "us" it has helped when i'm in the hospital, among other things. She would have taken my last name when we married, but it is hard to spell, and mispronounced
constantly. Even though it was my hetro married name, after 22 years it was mine, but neither one of us wanted to keep it.

I have no issue with keeping your own (collective your) name, rock on with
the freedom of making personal choices...it wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't even possible to marry, let alone change your name without an expensive court mess.

[girl_dee]

i've never changed my name... even when i married my ex husband i never changed my name. For *me* it feels like part of the lump of other misogynistic traditions that women were required to do just because we are women.

i appreciate that others do not feel this way and i think it's great that we have the choice!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

[DapperButch]

i've never changed my name... even when i married my ex husband i never changed my name. For *me* it feels like part of the lump of other misogynistic traditions that women were required to do just because we are women.

i appreciate that others do not feel this way and i think it's great that we have the choice!


Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

[Ginger]

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.


I hear you and I think your logic is sound and your question is valid and it's something that I'm wondering about too.

[girl_dee]

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?


Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

[Martina]

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

[DapperButch]

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

[Bard]

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name

[DapperButch]

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

Yes, I have noticed more and more the separate account approach. I think that whatever feels comfortable for the couple (assuming it is comfortable for both), is ok. We all define the choices we make differently. For one person, changing their name is heteronormative, for another, it creates a feeling of unity.

[DapperButch]

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name

Well then you best have a baby with your name or it will be all for naught!

I have a friend who took his wife's name (cis male), as her family name would have died out if he did not. They had twin boys, so all is good (assuming the twins keep their last name and procreate).

[girl_dee]

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

i am an individual. i've felt this way no matter what the relationship, even in my Master/slave relationship, even more so.

For *me*, changing my name feels like i am giving up who i am, and i am not willing to do that.

i love how some see this ritual, i just do not feel that way.

[DapperButch]

i am an individual. i've felt this way no matter what the relationship, even in my Master/slave relationship, even more so.

For *me*, changing my name feels like i am giving up who i am, and i am not willing to do that.

i love how some see this ritual, i just do not feel that way.


Thank you for explaining. :-)

[girl_dee]

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name


and you know what i love? that you would have been just fine if she didn't.

:)

[bright_arrow]

I have a big family - while my sister and I are child-less at the moment, I have plentyyyyy of cousins that share my [maiden] last name. I took her last name because I didn't have a stance on it one way or the other, so the fact that it would make her happy if I did do it - why not? I also feel that it would blend/unify our families, and I wanted our future child[ren] to have it as well. While they would be linked biologically to me, they would also be connected to her not because she will be there to raise them, but because the name will be passed on to.

If someone disagrees with my logic, that's perfectly okay, because it is what it is and my family is awesome :rrose:

[imperfect_cupcake]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

[Soft*Silver]

I married heterosexually this past July. I did not change my last name. It has caused so much confusion for everyone in my family and my friends. Everyone wants to address me as Mrs.....and I am still MsTia. We were given checks, addressed to Mr and Mrs.... and we both had to sign them. Both our banks wanted ID for these checks. We had to ask our friends to redo the checks. People have even said this was my way of passive aggressively not wanting to be married.
I have been MsTia for a long long time (29 years) and I dont think I need to change things

chrissy's last name is not one he IDs with. He just recently changed it to this last name, because of a legal loophole. His mother informally changed his name to her second husband's name and no one questioned it because he was so very young, but already in school.Somehow that wasnt an issue until he wanted a drivers license in a different state than his birth one.He had to go thru the legal process to change it back to his birth name. So, he could care less if I took his name.

We have considered finding a last name we both like and changing both of our last names.
but then, why the hassle?We are two old farts who just want to hang out until we die.So much drama involved,from the wedding to the name change to burial plots. I swear we are just 2 hippies passing the days together...

[MsTinkerbelly]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

Part of your frustration (correct me if i'm wrong) seems to be that we are all ignoring your very valid question and defending our position whether for or against names changes. When i feel judged and ridiculed (my feeling whether valid or not) i want to do my very best to put my point of view out there as clearly as possible and explain why the collective you can't possibly be right.

Sigh...what a lot of wasted energy!

I do not see butches changing names as often as femmes changing names...most butches probably would laugh at you or be highly offended were you to suggest it. It is "normal" in our culture for women to take the males names, and in our efforts for acceptance in this society we "ape" what we see and are brought up living (most of us) in our own homes. Most see butches as the "male" partner, right or wrong, good or bad...and if i'm honest i do defer to Kasey in many things.

You know that commercial "we've come a long way baby"? Maybe not so much.

[Ginger]

I do not see butches changing names as often as femmes changing names...most butches probably would laugh at you or be highly offended were you to suggest it. It is "normal" in our culture for women to take the males names, and in our efforts for acceptance in this society we "ape" what we see and are brought up living (most of us) in our own homes. Most see butches as the "male" partner, right or wrong, good or bad...and if i'm honest i do defer to Kasey in many things.

You know that commercial "we've come a long way baby"? Maybe not so much.


So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

[The_Lady_Snow]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.



My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

[Gráinne]

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

Lady Snow sees what HoneyBarbara was trying to say and speaks fearlessly. I too thought it was a valid and great question, one we're hesitant to face.

This isn't going to be an issue for me (as I know now), but I had another thought: If I were to marry into another culture or background, Latino, Chinese, etc., I'd be concerned that my partner's last name would have meaning and significance that I should not take on for myself. I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. Of course, were I to hypothetically consider marriage with anyone, that might be a moot point anyway. And, as HB and Snow said, why automatically my name in the hopper?

I reluctantly changed my name when I got married. Now, my kids, my career, and my life are all in that name. I haven't had my maiden name for 20 years, and I haven't "been" that woman for even longer, so I don't feel a need to "go back".

[stepfordfemme]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

I'm not going to speak for anyone beside myself here. There are plenty of butch identified people that have previously posted that they have felt attached to their last name, some femmes like myself have posted that they have little attachment to a last name. My reasons were more than unification of family.
Also, when I may not be able to share biology between my partner and my children. My Society at large will recognize the significance of them
Sharing a name.

Even if my partner holds the tie to his/her last name based in his/her masculinity, that's his/her personal choice. If I choose to give up my last name based in my understanding of my femininity, again choice.
Whether people like it or not, most of our traditional understanding of marriage is steeped in patriarchy and misogyny, but it's still a default social institution

I don't think anyone would deny that there is a trend between masculinity and the desire to keep a last name. I mean, there are many things within the butch/femme community that are based in strong identification with traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. I feel that people like to repeatedly declare "heteronormative" and I feel like this is being used as some kind of measuring stick of feminism. I feel if I make the "societal norm" choice, I get dismissed as being submissive or accepting of some kind of patriarchal influence..

Many of my feminist sisters before me have fought for my rights to choose. Many of my fellow queers have fought for my rights in my country to marry.
My people have fought for my rights to have babies/ not have babies/ fuck /ditch/ marry-- to live my true life. If I choose one that seems "heteronormative"
That's a judgement call placed on me within my own oppressed community. Really folks?

The reality is for some people on these boards, the rights and freedoms associated with marriage are new (especially in the US).You're not going to gain a representative view of trends for years because I would dare to say many of the people who get married right now or have legal name changes are people with strong ties to their feelings around marriage and family and tradition. Also, let's be honest we are all still navigating the waters around legalities behind family and name changes. Some people think that giving butch last names to families especially with children, they ensure more rights in any future court battles. There may be a belief that they will have to fight less against societal institutions if people see them as the traditional society approved type of family.

Lemme just say, no matter how many traditional roles I keep, I'm still queer, still opinionated, still a rocking feminist. I can't toss those away because I'm Mrs. "Xyz", even if I choose to be a stay at home soccer mom. I'm still a queer feminist soccer mom first.

Are these biases right? Not necessarily so. But dialogue to me
Is the first step in developing an understanding. When I am "measured", I don't feel heard. Much like in your previous post, it seems like you feel unheard because butches are not defending their viewpoint (please correct me if I'm wrong).

We are looking at a subcommunity of the greater GBLTQ community --the data and the norms are going to be skewed. It is my hope that we, as a butch femme community, can to allow for different expressions of masculinity and femininity without dismissing them as heteronormative.

[bright_arrow]

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

So to sort of sum it up: Unless we (femmes) voice and take a stand against something that's been ingrained in most of us since we were young, we basically "default" to it?

In psychology we were discussing how there are things we "know" that we can't say how we know, things that were ingrained in us when we were young that we never question. This thread reminds me of that reading.

I obviously can't answer for why butches "laugh" at the option of taking their partner's name. I think it just depends on the person. Same way there are femme's that would prefer to keep their last name. Perhaps some butches view themselves as masculine and equate masculinity in part with retaining their own identity. I can call my wife Daddy all I want and we can have sex using toys resembling phallic symbols that some would scoff at (lesbians? toys that looks like dicks? oh my, say it isn't so! imo - i rather use one that looks like a dick instead of a dolphin, but i regress..), but she is female-identified at the end of day and okay with that. Does that explain why she would consider the option of taking my last name had I suggested it? I don't know. I don't think being masculine-identified automatically means you won't change your last name, but does it mean the majority of masculine-identified won't? I don't have an answer for that.

I think there are other factors to take into account as well, such as if they have a connection to their last name (only sibling with it, family has strong roots and is proud of their name, it's a cultural 'thing'- could not think of the appropriate word here). I just don't think it's as cut and dry as "you're butch/transman/masculine-identified/whatever" and that is why you're less likely to take your partner's name. That might be part of it, might not, but I think there are other factors to look at too.

That is the extent of my picking it apart. :goodluck:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Conditioning, we've all been conditioned that male = superior. The engrained lack of value in women is normal and we somehow have become accepting. Blood lineage to some folks is important, if you ask a group of women what sex they would prefer if they had a child most would say "a boy" because it's thought and believed that male carries more weight in the passing of the name, which to me makes zero sense since women are givers of life.

There are probably hundreds of factors as to why we take on the name of the spouse but the one I keep coming back to is that whole primal Clan of the Cavebear stuff where women mean nothing unless someone/something else is attached to them be it via marriage, child bearing or feminine presentation...

Great dialogue!



P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

[bright_arrow]

I've noticed since I've gotten married, when I have to give my last name the person requesting it often tilts their head, furrows their brow and says "Isaac? But you're a redhead, surely you're Irish, so you must be married!"

I've never looked at someone and even questioned their last name and how it did/didn't match their appearance.

Though, we had a regular customer at Lowe's and her last name was Shoemaker. That did tickle me a little bit. :rrose:

[Kobi]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?



You are asking a valid question. I think some of us butches have answered it indirectly.

If you need a direct response.....I would not take a femmes name for the same reasons I would not want a femme to take my name. To recap, marriage and the symbols of it have historically been derogatory to women. As a butch and a woman, that chaffs me.

In addition, women of my generation were socialized to believe that you could accomplish a multitude of things but until you are partnered, you have not accomplished your "role" as prescribed by society. And, you were validated as having fulfilled your "role" by a very public declaration of your partnership i.e. marriage, name changes or modifications. This also chaffs me.

Above any other id, I am a woman and a feminist. And, as a woman, I have a really hard time playing into anything that is symbolic of the sexism and misogyny of our society. And, I have a really hard time trying to romanticize something that directly or indirectly symbolizes the oppression of women.


My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are.


Snow, I love your passion and exuberance and always have, even when I don't agree with the content.

I appreciate when you give your feminist pep talks. However, I have a hard time when you put butches/men/guys in one big masculine glop and make generalizations about who we are and what we think.

It irks me (excessive chaffing) when I, as a woman, feminist, and butch are seen as part of a group that undervalues or sees femmes/women as something less than.

It irks me when I am addressing sexism and misogyny, internal and external and women are taking issue with me as tho I cant possibly know what the woman experience is like. Hello?

It is disheartening to advocate for my people i.e. women and to be put down or turned into fillet de butch for doing so.

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.

[Ginger]

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.


I do appreciate that you are a butch speaking to sexism and misogyny.

I think there is a tacit vibe going on during this conversation, and that is, that if you are a "real" butch or a "real" femme, you embrace the butch-name-dominance model.

Maybe I'm being paranoid?

Anyway, when a butch speaks out in this discussion against butch-name-dominance, it defuses that vibe, at least for me, and even if it's just in my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Kobi, I'm not purposely trying to irk you, nor was I "giving a feminist pep talk", matter of fact I wasn't even posting from any kind of feminist thought in mind, my post came from thinking about it and reading all the posts. My post and participation in this thread is like everyone else just thoughts and opinions on th subject matter. As for the reasoning as to why I used *Butches/Men/Guys* , well I did that cause this particular online venue caters to all of those identities and more... I ALSO stated in my post that "My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc."

So you see I was very clear upfront about how I wasn't making blanket statements about anyone. :)


And now I'm out, I enjoyed the dialogue and will continue reading:)

[Bard]

As a butch and a woman who is married to a femme who is a strong Independent woman I just wanted to say we did NOT get married to ape the hetro population and the reason she took my last name had nothing to do with apeing hetro marriage. I asked her to be my wife as a sign to her and the whole world that I am committed to her to shout to the world and our families the wonder and beauty of the love we share that for the rest of my life she is my partner in all things. We are equal in all things I do not feel that because I am the butch I am the dominant partner. She did not lose herself when she took my name we created a new branch in our families. Our reason for her taking my name has NOTHING to do with my being butch but everything to do with me being my father's only child that carries his name and at least for me about giving her the one thing that I had NEVER given anyone else something that is precious to me

[*Anya*]

I think there is a tacit vibe going on during this conversation, and that is, that if you are a "real" butch or a "real" femme, you embrace the butch-name-dominance model.

Maybe I'm being paranoid?

Anyway, when a butch speaks out in this discussion against butch-name-dominance, it defuses that vibe, at least for me, and even if it's just in my head.

*My opinion* and I always speak from my own perceptions and feelings.

There also feels to me, an underlying tacit vibe that one is not a real feminist if one wants to change their name to their partner's last name.

Fuck that.

No one has brainwashed me.

No one has socialized me to believe that to accomplish a multitude of things, I had to be partnered in society <<< paraphrasing of course.

I will change my name when I want to, because I want to.

As my girl-friend would be more than happy to tell you (if she visited the planet); I don't do anything I don't want to do.

My family name is a symbol of a lifetime of abuse.

My married name is a symbol of same.

This is not some abstract concept.

This is my real life. If we marry: I am changing my name to hers. Hell, I am considering doing it regardless.

Because I can. Because I want to.

I am a feminist in love.

[Ginger]

*My opinion* and I always speak from my own perceptions and feelings.

There also feels to me, an underlying tacit vibe that one is not a real feminist if one wants to change their name to their partner's last name.

Fuck that.

No one has brainwashed me.

No one has socialized me to believe that to accomplish a multitude of things, I had to be partnered in society <<< paraphrasing of course.

I will change my name when I want to, because I want to.

As my girl-friend would be more than happy to tell you (if she visited the planet); I don't do anything I don't want to do.

My family name is a symbol of a lifetime of abuse.

My married name is a symbol of same.

This is not some abstract concept.

This is my real life. If we marry: I am changing my name to hers. Hell, I am considering doing it regardless.

Because I can. Because I want to.

I am a feminist in love.


Anya,

I hope by "you," you mean "you plural," and you're not speaking directly to me—because I never intended or implied or meant that a person isn't a "real feminist" if they change their name to their partner's.

Just clarifying, and hope we're cool.

Scout

[~baby~doll~]

This is my feeling and my view. i do not judge what others want or do. The idea of marriage and name changes are based on the individual and the nature of the relationship.
If W/we really want to take a feminist stand why do W/we wish to marry at all? The nature of the marital relationship has always been about property. The woman is given as property. The man receives this property and the woman takes her role as wife and care giver. In the past she tended the home and children and only later did women join the workforce. This was to help in WWII. After the war women went back to the roles they had in many cases, before the war. Marriage has always been demeaning to the woman, as it was based on the needs of the man.
The question is not about a name it is about the entire institution of marriage itself. The law sets the rules. Why is marriage limited to two individuals? Why does it exclude poly relationships? Once the marriage is made the law enforces the boundaries. The name change pales in the light and weight of the institution.
The decision was made in our household to marry in support of equality.
H and i are together because W/we want to be. There is no need of a contract in law. The contract comes from the heart and is already set in stone.
The decision for me to take H's name is easy it is a Mistress/slave relationship and i am already owned. i think it is a privilege to be allowed to take H's name.
If we really want to take a stand for feminism the entire institution should be frowned on. Marriage is an ownership relationship in every respect. Why do we want to do this at all, except to make a statement that we are now equal to the heterosexuals and can be just like them. Hmmm so if this is about taking a feminist stand W/we should dig our heels in against marriage. Just my humble opinions.

[Dude]

Everyone was sure I would be a boy.My name was to be
Lloyd after my grandfather. Relatives reminded me of This
constantly while growing up. My last name will not be
carried on because of me not finding a wife to bear me
some chillens. Snort ! At times, I even thought of adopting.
Slapping a name on an adopted kid feels gross to me now, too.
A name would not have made a kid feel more loved , ONLY love
does that!!! . I know that after watching my nephews grow
up with fathers who were not bioligical. Ha , I nearly slipped
just now and said " real" fathers. Its gross , how we are so programmed
to view love as an ownership.

Last week, I saw a butch introducing her wife as only " MY wife."
It was a disgusting display ( to me) of ownership, coupled with
what felt to be butch postering ( My woman, not yours ,MINE)
She said it ovah
and ovah to anyone who would listen ,until I said
" that's nice, so what' s her name?" :l

As much as I want someone being exuberant and
proud to be with me , don't evah forget I have a fucking
name. I am complete ,all on my own and I aint
Becoming ONE with anyone. Fuck that.
To me, that mind-set reeks of co-dependancy.
So because of that stupid jerry McGuire movie
that way of thinking is glamorized again?
There are soo many ways to be romantic without
having to go theah.

[*Anya*]

Anya,

I hope by "you," you mean "you plural," and you're not speaking directly to me—because I never intended or implied or meant that a person isn't a "real feminist" if they change their name to their partner's.

Just clarifying, and hope we're cool.

Scout

Hi Scout,

Of course not.

I re-read my post a couple of times and where I did use you, I basically meant the whole of the planet, not you in particular.

I also quoted you because of the use of the tacit vibe phrase.

I jumped off of your post because it fit and resonated with me.

Thanks for clarifying:) and we are always cool.

I love to read your articulate and well-written posts.

[Cin]

Yesterday was our wedding anniversary. Truly Scrumptious and I celebrated last night by, among other things, sharing a fabulous dinner that I made and some awesome chocolate that I did not. We talked a little about this thread at some point in the evening. We live in Quebec where the law does not allow name changes when you marry. If you want to change your name you are required to follow the same procedure that anyone must who seeks a name change. As you might imagine married people don’t usually change their names unless they have lots of extra cash lying around or it is for some reason extremely important to them. Apparently it’s not that important for most men to give their wife their name. Not important enough to pay for anyway. A man understands as long he procreates his name will live on. So no biggie. Probably why giving a wife your name is not a thing in many cultures. It’s not really important in the grand scheme of patrilineal societies nor does it hamper ownership or control of wives.

The law in Quebec might be the reason that changing our names never came up when we married. I’m sure it was one of the factors. For me I know I never even thought about it. I certainly had no desire to be honored by having Truly take my name. It’s not an honor to me, it’s not anything at all to me. It’s an honor that Truly wanted to marry me. It’s an honor that she wants to share her life with me. I remember saying that I would never marry another woman because marriage was a sexist institution and I had no desire to engage in such patriarchal traditions. Obviously I have moved past that. I wanted very much to marry Truly. The patriarchy be damned.

My wife told me she would have loved to have my name. That was a surprise. She said she really likes my name. She thinks it’s a cool name and would be happy to take it as her own. Of course I would give her my name. I would give her anything. Likewise I would take her name if it was important to her. Personally I could care less. I have no real attachment to my father’s name. Nothing against my father at all. I loved my dad. It’s just a very patriarchal thing to me. My mother is not even in the equation. It was my father’s name and it was his father’s name and so on. As a women who has her father’s name I would not be passing on anything that has to do with the matriarchal side of my family anyway. It’s all patrilineal. Since my father only had two daughters I suppose if I gave a shit it would be a way to carry on his name. But since I don’t give a shit about this patriarchal crap anyway that is no motivation at all for me. However if my wife wanted it she could have it.

Misogyny, sexism, and all things patriarchal have taken enough from me, from all women. I will not willingly give up anything. If I choose to marry I will marry. If I choose to take my wife’s name I will do that. If I choose to give my name to my wife I will do that as well. Not one more thing will I willingly allow the patriarchy to take from me, not one more thing will it ruin and soil. Patriarchy steals everything from women. And I am a woman just like my wife is a woman. Maybe that makes a difference I don’t know. I don’t identify as male. I don’t feel any attachment to a male lineage. But my wife and I will share whatever we want. I am a woman, a butch and a feminist and I can take my wife’s name if we choose or give her mine if we choose. And I’m still a woman, a butch and a feminist. And if I don’t take her name or she doesn’t take mine it will be because we both decided we don’t want that. It won’t be because we allowed the patriarchy to keep something we want from us. Just like I will not allow patriarchy to own and define masculinity in its own image, it can’t own and define marriage or name changing traditions.

[BullDog]

I am a butch woman. If I were to get married I certainly would not expect or demand that my femme partner change her last name to mine. If she wanted to, however, I would consider it a great honor. I would not think of it as being heteronormative. If I get married, it is two women getting married and we forge our own path. I do not equate butch with male or male norms at all for myself, and my partner changing her last name to mine certainly would not change that. It would be her choice.

What if she wanted me to change mine to hers? I would consider it, and my decision wouldn't be based on me being butch and her being femme. To be honest, I have never considered changing my last name, so I think it would be unlikely unless there was a big significance of it for her. The fact that I have never considered changing my last name, I really don't think it has anything at all to do with me being butch. My last name is kind of common, but it is also one I like, even though it is from my father (who I don't really have a relationship with). I think the most likely scenario is for us to both keep the same name we had when we met.

I understand that in heterosexual marriages when there is a name change, that to this day it is almost always the woman who changes her name. There seem to be more femmes who change to the butch last name when there is a change in marriage. (I guess that is true, although I don't know how much evidence we have of that really. Of the couples that I have known who got married, most of them kept their own last name.) However, as a butch woman it is also very frustrating for me to be lumped in with male standards or being viewed as "male-like." I fight very hard to be seen as a woman and as a legitmiate butch at the same time in butch femme community, especially online. I also get that butches do tend to be over valued, which does seem to be tied to masculinity, and that is also wrong.

[Bino85]

Ever since I can remember I have always wanted to keep my last name. It was not my fathers name, but my Grandfathers. I do not have a common last name, I am very proud of it's meaning and where it came from. Growing up it was and still is part of my identity. There are no other men in my family to carry on my families name and almost all the women have a different last name. It's out of respect for my Grandfather and my family that I would never change my last name. I also intend to share my last name with my children, but that is for both parents to decide. As for my partners willingness to share my last name that would be up to her and would not be a condition of marriage. Although in my heart I would like to have my family all share one name.

These are just my personal thoughts. I am not saying they are right. They are just right for me

[CherylNYC]

Since this thread was revitalised posters on both sides of the debate have had their legitimate questions roundly ignored, gotten triggered, touched on social dominance and submission, wondered whether they were being called bad feminists, and discoursed about the evils of the institution of marriage as it was originally conceived. Several other hot-button subjects have been broached, but I'm not motivated to go back far enough to count them up. Somehow this discussion has remained polite, for which I'm thankful. I have no desire to make anyone feel defensive about their choices. I hope nothing I've written about my own strong feelings has made anyone feel judged.

To be clear, even though marriage was formerly an institution that literally enslaved women, I'm an active, enthusiastic proponent of marriage equality. That's at least in part born out of my personal experiences having the doo-doo hit the fan when my late partner and I were not protected by legal recognition of our relationship. Our community can and does reappropriate words and customs that have been formerly used against us. I call myself a dyke even though that's still a fighting word for kids who are at this very moment being bullied in school.

I also have no problem whatsoever with a woman being submissive to her dominant partner, whatever their gender presentations. I'm active in the BDSM community, and I'm profoundly sexually submissive. While I've never been socially submissive to my partners, I know many people who are. Like me, that's their essential nature, but it doesn't mean that they're less-than, or that they're weak, and it certainly doesn't mean that they're not feminists. As it happens, many who are full-time submissives to their dominant partners are kick-ass women, and very competent, well respected professionals.

In my circles, people in full time D/s relationships often use the language of ownership to signal their status. A Dominant might say, 'My girl/sub/slave', without necessarily naming her. Just as Dude described the butch who relentlessly identified her partner as 'My wife' without naming her. Someone collared to Jane might be honored to be known as Jane's boi. If they married, that boi might choose to take Jane's name. Or not. In our BDSM community those conscious choices are made with full consent and a great deal of awareness about their ramifications.

Correlation is not causation. I AM NOT saying that a woman who takes her partner's name outside of a BDSM context is by definition signaling her submissive position in the relationship. I AM saying that a woman in relationship with a masculine or male partner who takes their partner's name reflexively, without processing that choice, and without having a conscious reason for doing so, is -willingly or not- participating in the overwhelming dynamic in our culture of presumed masculine dominance and feminine submission.

I'm deeply troubled when straight women presume without questioning that they'll take their husband's name, and even more deeply troubled by entitled men who assume that this is their right, because this is how it's always been. If a femme wants to take her butch partner's name that's her business and her decision to make. I just hope that women- straight, queer, femme or otherwise- would think those choices all the way through before making them.

It's the reflexive presumption part that makes me cranky.

[selty]

I was reading some of these posts about name changing with marriage and I see many people have very deep feelings about it,

I myself feel that it would be an honour to carry the name of my partner, to feel the sense of belonging to them.

ok I know that sounds a bit old school but I feel that in life and work I am very strong and can hold my place in any work with men or women and feel that the home and personal life with my partner is something completely different.

I don't feel that my femininity or even my ability to portray a woman of authority is changed in any way by the name I choose.

heck I could change my last name to mud and it wouldn't make a difference to the woman I am.

so with marriage I just find it as an honour to carry my spouses name

[Cin]

It’s not like it has eluded me that most of the masculine identified people on this thread want to give their name and most femme partners, who want to change names, want to take their masculine partner’s name. No real surprise there. And it’s not likely to change any time soon. If ever. But it’s still a good idea to bring it out in the open and look at it. I doubt it’s going to make any difference to anyone in regards to whether they change their name in marriage or whether they take their femme’s name or give their name to their femme partner. Nor do I see it as a condemnation of anything at all. What I see it as is self examination. The checking and examining of motives and beliefs and seeing where they may or may not come from.

I always talk about holding my masculinity suspect and examining myself for possible misogynistic ideas and behaviors. This is what I mean. We, and by we I mean everyone who lives in a patriarchal society, have internalized to some degree the belief that masculine/male/man is superior to feminine/female/woman. It would be a feat of Herculean proportion not to have. There is no crime in that. The problem to me is that we often refuse to examine ourselves and drag this shit out into the light and shake it off. Washing off patriarchal shit is a lifetime job. I don’t get defensive. I can’t help the world I developed my sense of self in. What I can help is how much of this crap I continue to carry. I can marry and change my name in marriage or give my name in marriage without falling pray to heteronormative ideals. I can even change my name Miss Tick on the Planet because it’s more feminine than I feel comfortable with without losing my feminist card. Masculinity is difficult to hold honorably in a society who uses it as a weapon to control women. To me in order to do this I need to hold myself accountable and I need to be willing to check myself for unconscious misogyny. And because i am a woman who identifies deeply with her masculine side does not mean i am not still a woman who pays a high price living in a misogynistic world just like all women do. But often I have to put that aside because I carry masculinity as an identity and I partner with women. I cannot let the idea that I am also a woman stop me from holding myself accountable and examining myself for my motives when indulging my masculinity. I like to swing my dick around as much as the next guy so to speak. I have to catch myself and see if it's really just all in good fun or if I am perpetuating some misogynistic bullshit.

Anyway back to marriage and name changing.

Looking at this issue openly and honestly and examining it from every angle doesn’t ultimately mean I can’t give Truly Scrumptious my name if we decide that’s the way we want to go. It just means that I have taken the time to examine and understand the possible issues going on behind my choice. And I’m speaking for myself here. I’m not saying anyone hasn’t examined their choices and looked at the misogyny inherent in those choices. I’m just saying looking and understanding the history, meaning and misogyny behind name changes for women who marry doesn’t mean it’s a wrong choice for you. Or that it means you are aping heteronormative relationships if after examining this you still chose it.

[Cin]

Correlation is not causation. I AM NOT saying that a woman who takes her partner's name outside of a BDSM context is by definition signaling her submissive position in the relationship. I AM saying that a woman in relationship with a masculine or male partner who takes their partner's name reflexively, without processing that choice, and without having a conscious reason for doing so, is -willingly or not- participating in the overwhelming dynamic in our culture of presumed masculine dominance and feminine submission.

I'm deeply troubled when straight women presume without questioning that they'll take their husband's name, and even more deeply troubled by entitled men who assume that this is their right, because this is how it's always been. If a femme wants to take her butch partner's name that's her business and her decision to make. I just hope that women- straight, queer, femme or otherwise- would think those choices all the way through before making them.

It's the reflexive presumption part that makes me cranky.

And I believe masculine identified people should also take the time to examine and process these kinds of things as well.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not asking why people are an exception. I'm asking why it's rare for butches to take femmes last names. I'd kind of like to address that. Not why individual couples are an exception.

I saw ONE person admit "cause I like heterosexual traditional roles" and that they *like* heteronormativity. Ok, that's absolutely fine. as long as that's a cognisant choice.

So of the butches here ON THE BOARDS (not your one friend of many) would take a femme's last name if she didn't want to change hers? or would you just opt out of changing names all together if she didn't want to? I'm not going to attack you for opting out if she won't change hers, but you might wanna think about "why not change mine? sincerely, what is the issue I would have with that, even though I'd like our names to be the same."

(and thanks for answering bulldog)

But it’s still a good idea to bring it out in the open and look at it. I doubt it’s going to make any difference to anyone in regards to whether they change their name in marriage or whether they take their femme’s name or give their name to their femme partner. Nor do I see it as a condemnation of anything at all. What I see it as is self examination. The checking and examining of motives and beliefs and seeing where they may or may not come from.

thank you, Miss Tick.

and thanks for the encouragement to keep partaking. I've been having a very frustrating time with either articulating myself of having people refuse to aknowledge my points lately in life and feeling kinda like opening my mouth is pointless.

[Cin]

So of the butches here ON THE BOARDS (not you one friend of many) would take a femme's last name if she didn't want to change hers?


I said:
" Of course I would give her my name. I would give her anything. Likewise I would take her name if it was important to her."

But in case that is not clear I would be happy to take her name if she didn't want mine and wanted a name change. I don't care.

[imperfect_cupcake]

sorry, Miss Tick, I missed that. I'm reading on a school break with a headache lol

Ok, I'm going to try and rephrase this

Of those butches of whom would *like* to have the same name as their partner, that they've thought about it their partner and them having the same name before they even have a partner, would they take the femmes name if she didn't want to change her name. Do *you* (butch) want the same name, and if so would you be willing to change yours? Or would you just think eh, nevermind then. I'm not asking for answers on the board, I am only asking that you think about why your answer is what it is.

[Bard]

I'm not asking why people are an exception. I'm asking why it's rare for butches to take femmes last names. I'd kind of like to address that. not why you (the you of yeah but we did it cause...) are an exception.

I saw ONE person admit "cause I like heterosexual traditional roles" and that they *like* heteronormativity. Ok, that's absolutely fine. as long as that's a cognisant choice.

So of the butches here ON THE BOARDS (not your one friend of many) would take a femme's last name if she didn't want to change hers? or would you just opt out of changing names all together if she didn't want to? I'm not going to attack you for opting out if she won't change hers, but you might wanna think about "why not change mine? sincerely, what is the issue I would have with that, even though I'd like our names to be the same."

(and thanks for answering bulldog)


thank you, Miss Tick.

and thanks for the encouragement to keep partaking. I've been having a very frustrating time with either articulating myself of having people refuse to aknowledge my points lately in life and feeling kinda like opening my mouth is pointless.


if desd had asked me to change my name to hers hell yes I would have considered it we would have talked about at and as a unit come to a decision. She chose to take my name and for me it was important more because of family reasons my brothers having been adopted by their step father I alone have the name a name that is dear to me. My daughter with my EX has her last name and has my last name as her middle name. I know for us it would have been more a conversation of what we wanted as opposed to what is the norm

however if my ex had asked me to take her name I would have said nope no way and I would not have wanted to give her mine I think that says a lot she also scoffs at the butch femme dynamic and wanted me to change to suit her
I hope I have at least given you some answers this is kind of hard for me sometime in the thread I have felt judged and belittled for that fact that desd and I chose what we did however it doesn't matter what anyone thinks we are happy in love building a life and family together
may you have a wonderful day :rrose:

[BullDog]

Trying to think about this further, I honestly have never thought of changing my last name. I don't think it has to do with specifically being butch, but I do think it very much has to do with being a lesbian. When I was younger I did not believe I wanted to get married, even if it was legal. I was in a 13 year relationship in my middle 20s to later 30s and we did not have a commitment or marriage ceremony. My feelings about marriage have changed, and now I really would like to if there is ever the opportunity for it.

There are some things I really have very little personal experience with that are common for most women. Maybe some are related to being butch, some with being a lesbian. I have no personal experience with birth control whatsoever. I have never even thought about it for myself, simply because I have never needed to. The same thing with changing my name. It just has never come up for me. I have had a couple of femmes express they would like to change their last name to mine if we got married. It truly felt like an honor and was something that meant a great deal to me. It was their choice to say and feel that. I don't feel it came out of any sense of obligation or need to follow any certain roles. It was something they felt they might like to do. I have never been asked if I would like to change mine by a femme I was partnered with. I would consider it, but it would be an entirely new experience for me to even contemplate. It isn't something I would volunteer on my own, because as I have said I am satisfied with my last name. If it was something that was very meaningful to her, I think I would do it out of love and it would feel like an honor.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thing is Bulldog, even though I'm a lesbian, changing my name *has* always been a question for me. And I think that *does* have to do with being a femme.
So the question has always been "if I get married, am I going to change my name??"
Not "is my partner going to want my name?" or "I'd be honoured if she took my name"

this is what I'm kind of trying to point at.

ETA I'm not trying to call anyone a bad person. It's just I'm trying to point out something like.... and I'm not using this to campre with racism but as a similar concept of "unpacking" .... I never thought about why there was no brown band aides. that doesn't mean I'm evil. It means, I've never had to think about it. I'm just trying to show some differences in assumed thought processes.

am I saying this clearly? can someone help me? I feel I'm not being clear.

[BullDog]

Hi HB, perhaps it is common for femmes to think about changing their name when considering marriage. It never has been for me, and to me it does seem more tied to being a lesbian than being butch. I have always assumed that most likely if I got married we would both keep our names.

The femmes that I have known that have expressed interest in changing their last name (whether with me or someone else) or have changed their last name, to me it has always very much felt like a choice they were making for themselves.

Perhaps femmes do consider changing their names a lot more than butches do. It could be.

[julieisafemme]

I did not take my former spouse's name. It was a heterosexual marriage and I did not think about it. I did not feel the need. People used that last name for me automatically because I was married. That did not bother me. My maiden name is a mouthful and I do not have a strong attachment to it.

When Greyson and I got married he asked me if I would take his name. This was important to him. His last name is lovely and since it was not my first marriage I felt like this was something special I could give to him. My kid does not like it even though I have never had the same last name as her!

I feel like our having the same last name is a reflection of this marriage being a true partnership where my first was not. It says something about us as a couple. I like that. It may say other things to people on the outside...patriarchy or sexism. I don't really care about that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

but I think there is something in that bulldog. Of course it's a choice no one is holding a gun to their head. but we make choices based on...

ok. nevermind. I can't. I'm stopping cause I obviously am not able to explain clearly or articulate in a way that's understood.

I may come back later or I may just go over my homework. Like I'm sposed to.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Like I said Julie, I'm not talking about why individual people are exceptions. I'm talking about ... I'm starting to feel like a record now.

I am typing in english, right?


I'm off for internet kittens and neurology. :)

[julieisafemme]

but I think there is something in that bulldog. Of course it's a choice no one is holding a gun to their head. but we make choices based on...

ok. nevermind. I can't. I'm stopping cause I obviously am not able to explain clearly or articulate in a way that's understood.

I may come back later or I may just go over my homework. Like I'm sposed to.

You are making perfect sense. I understand you and I agree that femmes probably consider it more than butches do. Not all femmes, but on the whole I think that is true and there is something to look at there.

[julieisafemme]

Like I said Julie, I'm not talking about why individual people are exceptions. I'm talking about ... I'm starting to feel like a record now.

I am typing in english, right?


I'm off for internet kittens and neurology. :)

Yes I get it!! My post was not in response to you or your points. I was reflecting on the differences in my two marriages and how that motivated me.

Kittens are good!

[Cin]

I think a lot of people have come on and explained what they believe was behind their desire to change their name or give their name or keep both names or whatever. I think that in and of itself is a big thing really. People are not going to understand where every other person is coming from. That’s just the way it is. That we listen to each other and think about what the other has said is really all we can hope for and really quite a lot I believe. Sometimes even when we are saying the same thing it is often not recognized as such or has enough of a little twist that we don’t see it. For example HB called it unpacking I called it holding my masculinity suspect. We both mean similar things. I just think the most important thing in discussions that are fraught with deep feelings and beliefs is that we all respect each other, listen without judgment and if at the end it is all we can do, we just agree to disagree. I believe if we keep an open mind, listen without judgment, little seeds get planted and have a chance to germinate. Overtime people can change their ways of looking at stuff. Or not. It's all good. And it's why I bother to talk and why I bother to listen.

[BullDog]

HB, I think you are trying to get at patterns and cultural conditioning. It may very well be that femmes consider name change more than butches. If so, why? Maybe butches are more reluctant to change their last names. If so, why? These types of questions may very well be worth examining. For me, it does seem to lead to me being placed in the "man-like" camp, which is something I bristle at and really can't relate to. But perhaps there is a fruitful way of talking about it.

People are posting to their own individual experiences because that is how they can relate to the question of name change and marriage. The decision does seem to be very much tied to very personal reasons to me. That is not to say that overall patterns don't exist that aren't worth examining.

For me, when I was younger I did not believe in same sex (or any type) marriage for myself. I wasn't open to the possibility of marriage until I was in my late 30s. I was never unhappy with my last name, and I still am not. I haven't ever thought about changing to a partner's, but if she really wanted me to I would definitely consider it. That is just my personal experience. I don't think it is typical butch or anything like that. It is just me and the life I have led. It is possible I am more part of a butch pattern than I realize, and it doesn't hurt to think about it and examine it further.

[Ginger]

I don't think anyone is disputing the observation that if someone is going to give their name, it is more likely to be a butch, and if someone is going to take a name, it is more likely to be a femme.

instead of continuing to speculate about what motivates people to be that way, I'll speak for myself:



I don't want to name another human being, unless it is my child.

And I would never presume to name an adult, even if I were in a relationship with that person.

To put it another way, I would never want to bestow my name on another adult, or "give her my name," as the expression goes.

I would not feel honored if she wanted to replace her name with mine; I would feel worried about what I would see as her need to assume part of my identity.

Also, I would have too much respect for my partner's right to name herself, to change her name to mine. I would have too much respect for her name, to support its erasure.

And if she really wanted that, I would be uncomfortable.

As I see it, my name reflects me. Her name reflects her. I don't want HER name to reflect ME, or MY name to reflect HER. Some would say, But then it would reflect US. I say, no that doesn't ring true for me. That equation doesn't equal "us" to me.

I would not feel less loved, because she doesn't want to be named after me.

Likewise, I don't want to name myself after another person.

I want to carry the name that reflects my history, my family, my hard work that has been attached to that name.

If a partner wanted to name me after herself, or rather, wanted me to name myself after her, I would feel reinvented in a way I don't want.

I would feel like she wanted me to be an addition to her history, not a continuation of my own. I would feel that she didn't love and respect my name.

That's why I wouldn't be in a couple in which one person's last name represented us both.

[Dude]

I have come in here twice now and haven't answered the question.
For me, there is so much layered into it that I keep getting
sidetracked.
I would be cool with doing the hyphonated thing. For
me, it feels like the healthiest choice.
It means ( to me ) I could still be an individual and many other
things factor into that.

My whole life , I have wanted to propose but have not :)
I would have to be very sure that it was a healthy fit to
go down that road.

As role-ish as I am sometimes in relationships. The
healthier ones were with take charge types of women.
I'm sort of shy and think way too much.
So, as I was driving around this morning ( thinking)
I thought how cool it would be for a femme to propose.
I would likely brag about that everyday.
Old dogs really can learn new tricks! ;]
Old school can blend into new school ways.
I've learned to never give away my favorite shirt
But instead to give away my second favorite shirt.

I do notice , often online butches being intimidated by intelligent femmes
which strikes me as odd.
They seem to want that upper hand thing or want to feel superior.
I like smart women and hope to fall in love with
someone wayyy smarter than me , one day

[Julie]

I have finally read everything. Lots of differing opinions and quite honestly, a whole lotta judgment going on here.

Who cares why someone takes another person's name? Really? If a butch asks a femme to take their name and the femme is happy, who cares? If a femme wants to take her butches name, who cares? If a butch takes her name? WHO CARES?

I am getting married to Dreamer next May. Dreamer never asked me to take his name. I never asked Dreamer to take my name. We did have the conversation and I simply said, I am not changing my name. I hope you understand. Dreamer said, of course I do. Dreamer said, he would like to take my name and I was fine with that, but after discussing logistics... Immigration, Passports, Pensions, etc. We both decided too much work and so not worth it.

My name is my father's name, and it was his mother's name (maiden) and was his father's name. The line of my name goes thousands of years. It is rich in history for me. To give up my very Jewish name, was not an option for me. Not even a thought. Though, I did worry it might hurt Dreamer's feelings and was quite relieved it did not.

I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them.

Signed,

Julie without a dowry. Though, I am sure this really upsets my beloved dominant butch. Sorry baby.

[Dude]

I fn forgot about the ring part!
I got sidetracked with the "on bended knee" buisness ;]
I don't do rings , so don't bother until I can go with and
get a comfy one.
I will then buy you the biggest rock my credit can mustah .

Here's to new and improved fantasies ~~clink~~~

[Ginger]

I don't think the subject of this thread is trivial.

[Julie]

I don't think the subject of this thread is trivial.

Who is trivializing it?
If (and I am assuming) by my WHO CARES comment. I can assure you, I do not think any part of a relationship or commitment is trivial, including taking or changing your name. I think it is sad, when we start shaming people for their choices.

[imperfect_cupcake]

show me where I shamed someone for their CHOICE.

should I re-post my post about norms and what do you think that might mean and it NOT being about individuals but a greater...

hello? *tap tap* *tap*

maybe I should start speaking dutch? would that help?

probably not. I'm not sure you read my posts without the "acusitory meany mc mean angry poo breath" filter on me that wasn't *there*.

take that off, maybe put on the "wow, I've noticed that most femmes give their names up. Butches *tend* not to. maybe we should think about that" filter on.

If the subject of that *doesn't* interest you then say "I don't care if most femmes give their names and most butches don't. I don't agree with thinking about it. I've got dishes to do."

or whatever.

y'know?

[Julie]

Did I say honeybarbara (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/member.php?u=595) you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Did I say honeybarbara (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/member.php?u=595) you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

nope you didn't name anyone and I'm the one that brought it up. so if there is a pa statement of "gosh, it feels judgy in here" *eyeball round* *saying nothing direct*

...and not naming who's dealin' it, I'll be happy to address it. so if you don't mean *me*, then how bout:

actually quoting who and what they said to actually address the comments you *do* mean, so it's clear and my princess self don't get all me me me knickers wedged up in my crack hm?

[Julie]

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Who is trivializing it?
If (and I am assuming) by my WHO CARES comment. I can assure you, I do not think any part of a relationship or commitment is trivial, including taking or changing your name. I think it is sad, when we start shaming people for their choices.

absolutely. quote the shaming. lets look at it.

[Julie]

absolutely. quote the shaming. lets look at it.

Really? I just cannot do this anymore tonight. I have been up since 6am - there is a typhoon in the Philippines and for me right now. That is more important and I have Dreamer on SKYPE - uber important. Not to mention, I still haven't watched AHS or Survivor. Y'know?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

[Julie]

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

Actually, I am interested in dialogue with you. I am rather intrigued by your mind and how you formulate your thoughts.

And... I had to have the aussie translate your last paragraph for me. And you are right, I am not following through and my intention was not for a drive by. I just don't have the energy tonight or brain power and will be happy to continue this with you when I do. And I say that with the utmost respect. Seriously.

[bright_arrow]

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.

[Ginger]

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

[imperfect_cupcake]

LOL no worries. I'm glad you can be fine with a bit of ribbing.

form my thoughts?? that's a compliment. I find they leave my head faster than they set. I need to express as I think. My flatmate hates me :D

Have a restful eve.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

[Gemme]

At this point, I am unlikely to change my name. It's a name I choose to keep due to the connection between it, myself and a wonderful woman who is no longer on this Earth. Plus, it sounds good.

With my first marriage, it was an automatic move...not even a decision or choice, really. As previously mentioned, it's something that was 'expected' of me and I was young and naive and hadn't fully formed my backbone or world view. Now, some very important, lifelong documents have that name on it. Stuff I can't change. So, I truly regret giving in to that expectation.

[Martina]

P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

-- Me too --

[bright_arrow]

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

I never thought I would get married/be good enough for someone to be 'worthy' or marriage or have children.. so, I never gave thought to my name. When I decided I would take Bard's, my family (particularly my dad) kind of went up in arms about it - they assumed, I guess, I would keep mine. However, we both know had it been to a cis-man, it wouldn't have been
questioned.

My friends/co-workers though automatically assumed that is just what I would do. I defer often to my wife, but as much as I try to 'give the reins' over, sometimes I have to make the decisions!

[Martina]

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

[Julie]

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!

[Ginger]

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!


No worries.

[bright_arrow]

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

Bard often introduces me as "This is my wife Shannon/Have you met my wife Shannon?" but it is not ownership as much as she is just so happy I said yes (or so I think) ;) And, it helps alleviate issues that could arise when we are at places like the doctor's.. With our age difference, it is also a way to clarify I am her spouse. I think sometimes it is also like a shield - so who you are talking to doesn't get the chance to ask our relation to each other. I have used it with creepy people at work when she has stopped by "Oh, that's my wife."

I understand some people do not go the marriage route for similar reasons as well, and I have absolutely no opinion or judgement on what others deem appropriate for themselves, but for us it is more out of love (we were going to have a ceremony before it was deemed legal anyways). Now I see perks - combined auto insurance, joint access to our bank account, being able to include her income with my measley one for home purchases.. alas, that is a whole different :canoworms:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

<complete aside>

Wife just means "woman." that's the orgin/meaning for the word. It's dutch. I got called "wife" in holland even before getting married. Other people put ownership on it.

In Medieval times in the UK, marriage was never ownership unless you had standing and money. This was before the church got involved. It was two people saying "I marry you". That's it. The only time it was about "arrangement" or ownership was for the people who owned substantial property, and needed standing. To Divorce? you were basically fucked.

I think we can reclaim it back to what it was before the church - if we are talking white european marriage. Personally, I'm white euro, so that's really
the only one I can actually talk about. My marriage was way less "normal" than most people's "not married" live together in a house with kids and a car. So I did get a bit arsey about people (not you Martina, I meant some well meaning but idiot friends of mine) telling me I was "buying into the unconsidered lifestyle of sexist marraige" when they moved in with their partner, got a bank loan, got another car, had a kid, and were talking about how they were going to do their garden. Fucking mind blowing. I'm living in a genderqueer political house with 11 people, stuffing holes in the walls with socks, the window sash ripping off when I close the window, mold down the walls, yet ANOTHER FUCKING HOUSE MEETING about fucking BEANS, some yoga retreat traveler from germany I don't know the name of sleeping on the couch, I'm making a living from sex work cause the recession is killing us and I can't find a contract job, and my wife is trying to get to amsterdam to help with her dad dying of cancer. We have no cars, no kids, and no pets. So... REALLY?

This is why I'm not trying to pick on individuals. I'm only trying to talk about a trend.

If anyone wants a great docu on the history of marriage in the UK during medieval times, let me know and I'll send you the link to download. BBC program.
</complete aside>

[~ocean]

hmmm I can see why so many ppl have issues with taking someone's last name as yours as a unified couple ~ I took my wife's last name , she was proud to share ~ and yes she bought all kinds of things w. our last name on it ~ the feeling I felt was not being owned but more as an honor ~ may not be right for everyone soooooooo grls do the - < system and stay connected :))) ~

[MsTinkerbelly]

So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about your questions all day, and i'll try to be clear in my answers.

I'm not certain that it is a good or bad thing to to enjoy the status quo...certainly if there is harm being done by the continuing of "tradition" then it should be looked at and modified where necessary. In *my* opinion no one is being harmed by changing their names unless somehow forced into doing so. I personally love having the same last name as my wife, i love the feeling of "us" that it gives me.

You know, several people have stated that they wouldn't be with someone that would change their name or ask for their partner/spouse to change theirs...i personally wouldn't be with someone that wouldn't

To each his/her own.

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.

[princessbelle]

IMO....It's just personal preference like so many, many choices we make in life. I am well aware that there is the hetero-stereotypical thought that when a woman marries a man they change their name. I've done it. Which may appear to cross over a little (?) into the butch femme dynamic.

But. Being gay, the ballgame changes for a lot if not most of us. I also believe most of us try to steer away from the hetero-norm. However, at the same time, i'm a firm believer that you shouldn't steer away from everything that "appears" hetero-norm just for the appearance of doing so while cheating yourself out of your true choices for life.

For example, i've posted a lot about taking the "woman's" hetero-norm role in a relationship when partnered with a butch. I truly went through a long time of feeling guilty about that. Like i was being a bad gay person by taking this sometimes "assumed" role in life for my ID. I don't feel that way anymore. I'm not going to cheat myself out of what i desire just to keep someone from telling me "i shouldn't do that because it is too hetero-norm". What i do in my relationship is my choice. That in itself is the key diff between gay and straight relationships, most of the time anyway.

If i ever get married again and my partner asks me to take their name, i may but not because it is expected. I would do it because i WANT to do it. And while i'm thinking about it, it would be done with a lot more intention and deeper meaning since it is a choice. That is a huge difference, than changing it because it is expected in a hetero relationship. Would i ask someone to take mine? Maybe, again it would be my choice to.

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

Hope that made sense. Been a long day.

[macele]

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

--princessbelle



princessbelle, great post.

freedom is the key. whatever i do in life, all areas, i'd like for it to be natural. the freedom to be me. just let it happen. and keep my last name while doing it lol.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

[girl_dee]

What immediately comes to mind is that in the beginning the men made the rules and it was decided that she would drop her name and use his. This would become the family name.

Given that women could not vote, work, drive or have an opinion about much that this was part of the rules and fell into that lump of stuff we were expected to do.

Butch femme is usually a masculine/feminine balance which does mimic hetero couples, and for us, being given the same rights as married folk, like being able to legally change our name in gay marriage is a right we jumped on.

i think we have adopted so many traditions of straight folks because that is what we know, i don't imagine many of us were raised by lesbians, or gay men. i think as time goes on we will right our own set of rules based on our own ideals and whatever the hell we want to do. Also there is not a damn thing wrong with adopting any tradition if that is what you want to do. But there ARE options.

Not taking the male/masculine/butch name in marriage is idea many have never even thought of, it's just expected. At one time women probably thought they would never get the right to vote, or opt for divorce, etc.

Again, i think it's lovely that some cherish this tradition.

[Loren_Q]

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?


In North America, the social/cultural norm is for the woman to take the man's name in marriage.

Those mores/norms are embedded to some degree in all of us. I beleive each of us carries the social/cultural norms we were raised with whether or not we like them and whether or not we even know it.

The name taking norm is slowly changing, but the ratio by far is still the woman taking the man's name.

I don't think this is limited to B/F relationships. What I see is the dominant partner's name becomes the family name. When the dominant partner is femme, it can raise eyebrows, but not really.

This leads to the other cultural/societal norm that butch=dominant partner... And that's a whole other thread.

FTR I know many Femme-led relationships, but the question is broader than my personal circle of friends.

[Ginger]

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.


That wouldn't be pretty, you and me in a pissing match ;)

[Tony]

I’ve read through most of this thread. A lot to keep up with. There’s a lot going on here for a lot of people. Thought I’d add MY FEELINGS ONLY. It was mentioned by someone in an earlier post, and I’m paraphrasing here, that it was too bad or they wondered what a cis man thought about all this. I have lived as a straight man for more than 2/3rds of my life. A completely stealth life up until joining this sight about 2 years ago. Which is to also say I really had not had any connection with and very little knowledge of the LGBT community. I have learned a lot here, and have been grateful for that. But I did have 2 marriages and 2 divorces. The subject of either woman taking my last name or not was never discussed; it was just assumed. And to be truthful, I never thought about this subject until seeing this thread. Now it concerns me and affects me. Another thing I am grateful to this site for is the woman who holds my heart and consumes my soul. I asked her what her views and feelings about this name change issue were. Because I wanted to know and because for me, I always expected and assumed whoever I married again would take my name without there even being a discussion about it. She is a Beautiful Latina and explained about the women having a hyphenated name of her maiden name-husband’ name. Then she explained about some regions it would be “Beautiful Latina (Husband’s name) de (Father’s last name).
So I posed the question to her, that in the event we ever strolled down the aisle, what would her preference be? She said she would like the example shown. Now, normally, being the shallow bastard that I am, and in a previous life, I would not be open to this at all. You know, at least my name should be the last one. But, as I said, she does hold my heart. If that is what she wants, and it would make her happy, I would have absolutely no problem with it. I believe in the institution of marriage, the commitment of it, and for me her happiness is paramount to fulfilling those commitments. I do have to add, that she has opened my mind and my heart to many things and attitude adjustments. Another reason I love her.
Again, these are my views only. I do believe that everyone has a legitimate view and feeling about this. In the end, it is all about the choices that work for us, individually.

[Cin]

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?


Because the butch is seen as the masculine partner and since the US, although noted as a bilineal society, uses patrilineal naming, it stands to reason that many b/f marriages would uphold this tradition. There is a powerful pull toward reproducing tradition. And both traditionally and symbolically gender plays a key role in marriage. One of the most important symbolic gesture regarding gender is the deference of the female to the male. That is sometimes duplicated in varying degrees in b/f culture. People involved in making these symbolic choices, such as taking the butches surname, often have a variety of explanations for the same choice. This variety of reasons for the same option is normally seen when personal choices have internal and subconscious meanings. Again considering the power of patriarchal tradition this is no surprise.

Interesting to note that despite the past many Americans support patrilineal naming. Also surprising is a study that supposedly shows 50% of Americans saying they would support a law requiring a woman to take a man’s name when marrying. This is particularly disturbing since breaking free of the doctrine of coverture was such an uphill battle and it was only in the 70’s that women began to win the right to use their own name to get credit instead of only their husbands. But again tradition is deeply rooted and difficult to buck. There is a sense of community and belonging associated with participating in traditional rituals. Butch/femme couples are certainly not immune to this desire. But just because people have a desire to be a part of something it doesn't mean their brains fall out. This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?
I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

[Julie]

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

This is going to be a bit difficult, as I believe in all subjects, we intrinsically speak from our own experiences.

From a historical perspective - The Butch/Femme dynamic has always been masculine driven even though historically it is the Femme's who ahs worked (since butches could not show themselves as femme's could) and ran the household. From what I can see living in North America and being part of the B/F community for 30 years. It is part of the package and part of our history and really part of what many of us crave.

While we are not heterosexual, we have for hundreds of years lived in hetero-normative relationships. We have gone from experiencing our butches cross dressing and living as men, while we as femme's lived the June Cleaver role (I am speaking historically.) to very fluid equal relationships, where both the Butch and the Femme mow the lawn and cook. For many femme's this is still a way of life, as it is for butches (masculine dominated). I do not think today, so many femme's are giving up their names. There are still old school b/f relationships happening where they follow the structure of a dominantly masculine household. I think much of it is generational as well. We have a new generation of b/f relationships that are not doing this, as we have the older generations not doing so. As some have said here, we as queers, get to make the choice, which so many heterosexual women cannot.

EDITED: I would like to add to this. Gay Marriage is NEW here. For many of us, we have waited decades to be able to have the same legal rights as those of our straight counterparts. It is more than just a state by state law, it is now recognized on a federal level. I believe for so many couples, this has created a "this is my legal right to take her/his name, and i am going to do it." She is going to do it, just like her sister did and her mother and her friends and her aunts. She get's to do this legally. In so many ways, it is like a right of passage. I get that completely.

From a personal perspective. I am going to be Dreamer's wife and while I might flinch at the term for myself. I know when Dreamer says it, he is saying it with the utmost love and happiness. For us to be married and for me to be his wife, is a dream come true. I will not take this away, even though the term is not my favorite. Dreamer will not be my wife.... Dreamer will be my spouse.

Julie

[Cin]

This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.


I wanted to explain this more fully. Because when I reread it, it sounds like I'm advocating that people find reasons to do something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning. That is not the case at all. I am not personally advising that this is important. What I am saying is that people have a need to do that to ensure that there is consonance between what they believe and their actions. That is what is often behind a group of people making the same personal choice but instead of having the expected or typically understood reason for doing so they each have different reasons for making the same choice.

It is also why people often hate being asked to explain and examine their beliefs or the process by which they have reached their opinions. It is why we find people, who are on a discussion board where the purpose, one could not be faulted for believing, is to actually have discussions, angered by being asked to discuss. Questions that ask people to challenge their beliefs are difficult. It is the reason we hear so many people say it’s just my opinion and I’m entitled to it. I don’t have to explain myself. Which effectively cuts off any chance for discussion. This desire to shut down the other person, or shut up oneself, increases dramatically when someone is being asked to look at how they are holding conflicting beliefs, ideas, opinions, etc. It is uncomfortable to do this so people look for a way to achieve harmony between opinions or actions. It requires a good deal of mental and emotional gymnastics at times to achieve consonance, but discomfort increases this type of athletic prowess exponentially.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular or even about this thread specifically, although focusing on honeybarbara's questions brought this stuff up for me. I know it is not an answer to her questions, it's more why there is not likely to be satisfactory answers to her questions. To lots of questions.

[Chancie]

<snip>

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?

I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

What she said.

[*Anya*]

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to look at my own cognitive dissonance.

What has made me uncomfortable is the underlying feeling of shaming I have felt for those of us, mostly femmes; that chose, will chose or want to chose: our partners name.

I know someone will jump in to say : "there is no shaming going on here".

I know what I feel.

Feminism used to be an almost abstract concept for me. I was on the outside looking in when I was my most vocal and sure in my beliefs.

That means I was not in a relationship. Of any type-men or women but men were pretty much in my rear-view mirror for good.

I was never going to be an instrument of the patriarchy ever again. Hell no! Not me.

Then, after many changes: I became on the inside.

Living inside a relationship as I am today.

My current relationship brings up many issues for me.

We are both in our 6th decade of life.

For those of you that are young, you can read about the second wave of feminism but for those of us that are older and that were politically active in the late 60's and 70's-we lived it. Marching in the streets, protests, demanding the rights of women to abortion (how painful to watch those gains slip away) and marching for women's liberation.

Sometimes I wonder what we had gained and what we have truly lost. (Did we ever have "it" in the first place?)

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

[Cin]

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to look at my own cognitive dissonance.


It does make most people uncomfortable to hold two or more conflicting beliefs or opinions. I'm glad you don't have a problem doing it. Most get a feeling of unease and have to shift things around until they feel comfortable. May I ask what particular cognitive dissonance you were looking at in this case that was NOT making you uncomfortable? Or were simply speaking generically, like cognitive dissonance doesn't affect you? Or did you mean there is no cognitive dissonance for you concerning this issue, but if there were any it would not make you uncomfortable?

[Cin]

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

[*Anya*]

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

:rrose:

[Cin]

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

:rrose:

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to :deadhorse:.

I have nothing but respect for you. :bouquet:

[*Anya*]

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to :deadhorse:.

I have nothing but respect for you. :bouquet:

MT,

Not upsetting at all. You are always respectful.

One of my issues is always explaining.

I always had to justify myself as a kid and frequently find myself doing that as an adult <<<<<<just like here:)

I try not to do that when I feel done with something.

I can :deadhorse: with the best of them.

:bouquet:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know someone will jump in to say : "there is no shaming going on here".

I know what I feel.

I'm sorry you feel personally shamed. I know that when that comes up for me, ti's cause there's a trigger of past crap there. I don't believe I have shamed anyone in my questions. I don't think there is any shame in someone IDing as old school, liking heteronormative rituals and taking them as their own, with this one stipulation: as long as they are conscious that this is what they are doing

Wanna be heteronormative? bo-yaa. knock yourself out. but own it. I'd like to add I did give props to the one poster who came in and did this. when I read she was fully aware of it and she liked it, I thought "ok, fine with me. glad to know you are happy with doing that and aware of it." thumbs up.

I have a few heteronormative things that I personally find a turn on. and I'm happy to own them to whomever *asks*

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

so when I ask a social science type question (why do we do X, where does this come from, are we cognisant of this) about us, and get "you are judging me" from people, I would really like it if they would actually show me where I personally have judged someone, so I can either a) clear that error of communication up or b) understand how that could be shaming.

so, if you feel like naming the shaming comments, it's much more helpful to me as a person than someone coming in and saying "I'm being shamed" and .... that's kinda it. I can't do anything about my behaviour if it's not pointed at. It's like someone saying "I was hurt when you were shitty to me today!" and that's it. Um. ok.

So, it would be really helpful if you could show me anything I've said you found shaming.

[Apocalipstic]

I grew up around the double last name thing and like it.

[Cin]

I don't think there is any shame in someone IDing as old school, liking heteronormative rituals and taking them as their own, with this one stipulation: as long as they are conscious that this is what they are doing

Wanna be heteronormative? bo-yaa. knock yourself out. but own it. I'd like to add I did give props to the one poster who came in and did this. when I read she was fully aware of it and she liked it, I thought "ok, fine with me. glad to know you are happy with doing that and aware of it." thumbs up.

I have a few heteronormative things that I personally find a turn on. and I'm happy to own them to whomever *asks*

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.


I am not saying there is any shame in it but I don’t id as old school. I don’t like heteronormative rituals. I don’t take them as my own. So I will not be conscious that this is what I am doing, because it’s not. As a matter of fact I have put in enough time examining and unpacking to know this is absolutely not what I am doing. Yet I could cheerfully give Truly Scrumptious my name. And I don't have to knock myself out or own it.

I am not making the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I am supposed to be doing, nor am I bastardizing the true butch-femme dance. And I still will give my name to my wife if that is what she wants. I don’t think I have to admit to liking heteronormative rituals or iding as old school in order to give my wife my name. I have to look at it, examine what it means, understand what is behind the rituals, but I don’t have to be invested in the actual heteronormative ritual. I strongly object to that assumption. The patriarchy doesn’t own masculinity, marriage or naming. These things can be appropriated and made in another image. I just have to be cognizant of what I am doing and why. If I believed that I had to identify with heteronormative rituals to have what I want and to be who I am, then I might as well just hand over masculinity to the patriarchy and be done with it. It doesn’t make sense. If I can do woman the way I want regardless of heteronormative rituals and patriarchal rules of gender, then I can marry who I chose and give them my name if I want and still not be aping man/woman relationships.

Maybe I'm missing something but I seriously don't understand why you would say this.

[Dude]

I'm wondering about how not sharing a last name will
affect hospital visitation stuff. If I do have a spouse in
the hospital , I pity the fool who wants me to prove that we
are really married.

[imperfect_cupcake]

she have your name listed as her spouse during hospital registration?

same.last.name.could mean you are her second cousin. same.last.name.doesnt prove much :(

[Apocalipstic]

I'm wondering about how not sharing a last name will
affect hospital visitation stuff. If I do have a spouse in
the hospital , I pity the fool who wants me to prove that we
are really married.

Medical power of attorney.

[BullDog]

To me, thinking that a femme taking a butch's last name is heteronormative is in itself heteronormative thinking. I am not a man or man-like. To me, masculinity does not equal male, and a butch is not a stand in or substitute or close approximation for cis male. Butch is butch and there are many different flavors of butch. So some of the discussion here does have me confused. If a woman took my last name in marriage, she would be taking a butch woman's last name who got it from her father.

[Ginger]

sorry, changed my mind

[Martina]

I'd like to take up the issue that butch-femme history was "masculine driven" or however it was put. That is simply not the case. For material reasons. Queer folk have not enjoyed institutional support for our unions. Few employers, churches and family members took an interest in how butch-femme couples ran their lives except to condemn them outright. The state granted no legal privileges to either partner as there was no legal marriage. (Most butch-femme couples were marginalized socially and economically.) And as was noted, butches were not economically more powerful than femmes; often they were less so.

So there was no great power disparity between butches and femmes. While many femmes deferred to butches in public and private, this was not a patriarchal institution. It just didn't work that way. I am old, and I knew some butch-femme couples from the fifties and even the forties. And they were not couples whose relationships were marked by real power disparities.

Butch-femme culture is, and has been, rife with sexism. And that matters, but our relationships have never been like heterosexual relationships because real power never rested with butches. And material power differences are what maintain oppression, not ideology alone.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I would buy that bulldog, if the thought was born out of thin air.

or

If just as many butches took femmes names and it was equal. but taking a tradition from a heterosexual past, and applying it Feminine to Masculine....

I understand what you are trying to say and that's not why I am trying to point out.

people do things, even me, that are because of what they have learned as feminine to masculine traditions. they may have deconstructed them, they may be Uber Queer and both are women, but they are still acting traditions they recognise as feminine to masculine.

they did not make them up themselves. they are following what they are taught, feminine to masculine.

I am *NOT* calling people sheep, telling them they are bad, or evil for doing so.

actually, know what?

fine. no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

we are innocent and entirely unto ourselves.

amen.

later folks

[BullDog]

Well, I believe there are probably more femmes who use cosmetics and wear dresses than there are butches that do. Do femmes do this to act like traditional heterosexual women/for heteronormative reasons, or do they have their own reasons and preferences for their appearance and how they express their gender?

[Martina]

no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.


We are different because the material reality of our lives as lived over generations has been different from the lives heterosexual couples lived. We are different because none of us truly was raised with male privilege. We are different because there still are not the institutional rewards and sanctions imposed upon us that most heterosexual couples benefit from/contend with.

But are we plagued by unexamined sexist expectations and beliefs? Yes, we are. As a group, in general, it is safe to say that we are. And it's a problem, IMO.

Having said that, I do not think that any given behavior functions in a heteronormative way in any given relationship. As you say, it depends on the couple and how self-aware they are. And I agree with Anya, at some point you gotta just live your life in the best way you know how, being happy and doing as little harm as possible.

[Martina]

fine. no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.


More thoughts.

We can't change gender norms over night. We understand sex and gender via the current construction of them. It's the world we grew up in and still live in.

So what would you have us do? We all repudiate some parts of heteronormativity. We reconstruct other parts of it, and we accept others -- because they work for us. Are the parts we accept perhaps reinforcing heteronormative expectations in our community and outside of it? Yes, probably.

But we don't live outside of history and culture. We live in it. We are all doing the best we can. There are people who support and endorse male/masculine superiority . . . well they are here but sorta marginalized. And there are people who kinda like it but are stealth or coy about it . . . seems like there are quite a few of those around. And then there are a lot of femmes and butches (more femmes) who are so hot for the dynamic that they try to enforce their version of it in an unexamined way -- because they want to find what they want out there. They want a world that makes them feel hot and validated to be real and populated. They want it to seem inevitable/natural. They do harm (e.g. femmes making fun of butches for wearing clothes made for women), but it's more that they are narcissistic and immature than deeply committed to some version of butch-femme that isn't even the status quo (never was, in fact).

And then there are people who do not believe in gender inequality, who understand that in the real world it's a human rights issue. However, these same people, some of them, may live lives and have relationships that look heteronormative. They are working it out for themselves in this world, where they grew up and learned what it means to be (insert ID) and what is sexually hot for them.

I am not all that alternative. I may be leather and may have been poly, but in most ways I am pretty conventional. I expend thought and energy to address sexism in my relationships and in my communities. I do. But I also choose to live the life that works for me. What else can I do? What else can anyone do?

[Martina]

We are different because none of us truly was raised with male privilege.

That's not true. I was failing to include transwomen. Many feel they benefited from some male privilege at some point. My apologies for that exclusion.

[Martina]

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

When I was coming up, at the very beginning when I heard about and was exposed to the butch-femme dynamic, it wasn't about gender roles or norms. Also, while I am not butch and can't say what privately went on among butches, there didn't seem to be a lot of competition around who was more masculine. Same with femmes re femininity. There was competition around who was more good looking and who had a partner and whose partner was happy or straying. That sort of thing.

Butches would posture, but it was in the service of impressing a girl. It wasn't an identity thing. When I was coming up, a butch was cool if she 1) had a girl who was crazy about her and 2) had a reputation for being a really good lover (therefore was popular among femmes). It was sometimes very Rico Suave -- I put a spell on women -- that kind of thing. Femmes would roll their eyes, but lick their lips.

Being known for being able to please a woman -- that was the rep butches sought after. That was almost the core of butch identity. If you asked someone what made her butch, after being surprised at the question, I bet most of the time she would have answered because she could make a woman come back for more -- beg for more. That kind of thing. There was a lot of arrogance and trash talk about that. Very little about markers of masculine gender presentation.

The dance was more about sex than it was about gender. I don't think it's just because gender roles were a given or because people lacked the language to talk about it back then.

Our history is not well-documented, and we project our current preoccupations onto the past without much thought. But I recall. I was not femme when I met some of these women. Just a baby dyke. But I recall.

From the stories I heard, there wasn't a lot of policing of gender or how people ran their relationships. Everyone struggled, and everyone was at risk to one extent or another.

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

[Ginger]

...

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

...




Hey Martina great post. I excerpted this one section because "serious economic and physical threats" still exist many butch/femme folks. It feels silly to say that; it's such a given. I must have misunderstood something but still, here's my comment. Scout

[Ginger]

I would have been this kind of straight woman: I keep my own name; we have shared resources but I also have my own money; my career matters as much as his; neither "defers," but we make decisions about our life together, together, etc.

And that's the kind of femme partner I would have been.

[Chancie]

My sister changed her name when she married her (cis male) husband and I was shocked to hell.

[Okiebug61]

Red would not take my last name nor would I take hers.

[Cin]

When I was coming up, at the very beginning when I heard about and was exposed to the butch-femme dynamic, it wasn't about gender roles or norms.

That incredible self-righteousness and tendency toward intense self-examination -- that came with my generation of dykes. I think that older folks had enough serious economic and physical threats to their well-being that they didn't look for silly reasons to exclude.

That’s not how I remember it.

I grew up in a poor and working class neighborhood with the usual variety of society’s throwaways. In the projects it was all families on welfare but the surrounding tenements were a mish mash of fringe. I learned a lot about alternative life styles. I learned a lot about a lot of things really. I was always a watcher and I processed what I saw in depth even as a kid. I saw queens tormented and beaten for fun. I watched homeless guys get beaten for fun. I watched drunks get rolled and beaten for fun and profit. I watched junkies on the nod get left alone. I watched bull daggers get tormented and sometimes beaten, but much differently than queens. Kind of like one would poke a junk yard dog, carefully and always with a back up plan. There was this one butch everyone talked about how tough she was, how she could kick any guy’s ass. They despised her because she was different, queer and masculine presenting, but there was also reverence and grudging respect because she was dangerous and tough. She was impressive looking that’s for sure.

I identified mightily with the neighborhood butches called bull daggers or diesel dykes. I wanted to grow up to be like them. They were tough and they lived like men. As I got older I watched the butch/femme couples in the neighborhood. They may not have said gender roles or norms but they sure as shit acted them out. Butches didn’t cook and do laundry or go grocery shopping and they sure as hell did not do housework. They drank in bars, worked manual labor and fixed their own cars. And when their femmes got home from working in factories they took care of the house and their butches. When I got old enough to get away with drinking in bars I had occasion to see butch-femme dynamics a little closer and it sure looked like heteronormative behavior to me. And without any of the accompanying examination or soul searching to water it down that we see nowadays. No nod to gender equality or angst over misogyny. How I processed what I saw led me to deny that I was a butch who loved femmes. I often dated and/or partnered with women who were attracted to female masculinity, but like me they did not identify with the butch femme dynamic. I refused the dance. I thought it was sexist and misogynistic and not at all in line with the person I wanted to be. It was a long road home. And I’m happy to have arrived a proud butch woman married to a proud femme woman. It’s our dance and sometimes I lead and sometimes I follow. And I’m happy either way. I do not live the butch femme relationships I grew up seeing, I don’t share the ideals of the butches I knew and listened to as a kid. They may not have spoken about gender roles or gender norms but they lived them. And they did so unapologetically without any thought to what they were perpetuating. So personally I’m glad we do some naval gazing nowadays. At least there are alternatives to the hyper masculinity I saw growing up. There may have been then too, but I never saw it and nobody talked about stuff like that. So I’m glad we talk about it now.

Masculinity has always been revered. It didn’t just happen with gender conversations. Roles were always a part of the butch femme dynamic, at least in my part of the world. They weren't thought about they were just done, just lived. But now we have an awareness of what it means to play that way. There are many of us who don’t think femmes equal hetero women and butches equal men. Just like I'm sure there were many who never thought that way when I was growing up either. But nobody talked about that. It was assumed to be exactly how it looked. Examining stuff is empowering. Masculinity has been separated from men and patriarchy. Femmes parse femininity in their own image. It’s not perfect but it’s better.

[Cin]

I am talking about the 70s not the 40s or 50s so that might make a difference.

[Cin]

no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.


Of course that's not true. Plenty of sexism and misogyny going on everywhere and these boards are not immune. Reverence of the masculine absolutely.

You always have a great perspective. It’s not that I don’t agree with what you are saying because I do. I just don’t feel I have to cop to engaging in heteronormative behaviors in order to give my name to my wife. It was not a reflexive decision on my part.

And I don’t think I can make that call for anyone else.

[BullDog]

If there was widespread expectation that a femme should change her last name when marrying a butch, then I think that could be an indication of unexamined sexism and heteronormative values in this specific type of situation. However, I don't see that. Some people may disagree. There do seem to be more femmes who consider changing their names than butches, so perhaps there is something to it. However, any femme I have ever known who considered changing her last name to the butch's, it was totally her choice and one that appeared to be very well thought out. Same sex marriage is very recent, so yes most of our traditions surrounding marriage do come from traditions that have long been established by heterosexuals. I do think most queers when they do marry put a lot of thought into it and try to make it their own, but we are still working with the traditions that have gone before us.

[Martina]

I am talking about the 70s not the 40s or 50s so that might make a difference.

I doubt it. I think it's all true, what I am saying AND what you are. I think a lot of those femmes had a lot more power than it may have looked like from the outside, as did some straight women. There was not much social reinforcement of the power of butch women in their relationships. And no economic or state. I definitely saw women adopt roles in their relationships. Of course they did. But it was different from heterosexual relationships, and their understanding of it was very different from what we imagine it was like.

Yes, gender roles were a given, and some folks were pretty entrenched in them. Probably some of those relationships were made miserable because of that. And some worked well. But I think that folks worked out all kinds of variations on a theme. Straight people did too, but lesbians had less social pressure on them and therefore more freedom to do what worked for them.

And it looked way different to me. So much emphasis on making the femme happy. And not just from stone butches. And not just in the courting phase. That was kind of the center of the connection, not the butch's masculinity or the femme's femininity. Yeah, people grooved on that. That was the source of a lot of the heat. And of course it was part of people's personal identity. But it wasn't as defining as it is now. Nor was it defining of the dynamic. It just wasn't.

I will say that the women I knew at the time were older. Older folks in long-term relationships work things out and mellow. Plus times were already changing.

What I was reacting to was the statement that the dance was somehow first and foremost about gender roles. We emphasize some parts of these identities and interactions more than they did. They emphasized others. Pleasing the femme is still important. But if you watch some unreflective young butches now, you'd never get that. It would seem to be ALL about gender performance. It was about gender performance then too. There were codes of dress. But it WAS different. Every social construct changes over time, and if it is maintained, people later in the timeline assume what they experience was always the case. Not so.

I will add that -- not just to you -- but can you imagine how brave femmes were at the time? How incredibly brave. These were not, in general, people who were thrown out of their families for being dykey-looking. They stepped away from privilege and safety by choice. And while the old ethos was that butches "protected" their femmes, it seemed to me that in many ways, it was the other way around. Femmes patched up butches up emotionally and physically, but they also stood with them side by side and took all the social disapproval and some of the violence meted out to such couples.

And the butch and femme women I met -- mostly through politics -- were on the left, members of unions and long-time fighters for social justice. They believed in the equality of women. That had to have affected the way they lived their personal lives.

I will also add that I sure never denied the degree of violence and hatred directed toward gay people from the outside. So that part of your post puzzled me.

[Cin]

I will also add that I sure never denied the degree of violence and hatred directed toward gay people from the outside. So that part of your post puzzled me.

I didn’t mean to make it about violence directed toward gay people. There was violence directed toward lots of people. Violence was part of the fabric of people’s daily lives. It still is I’m sure. But violence directed toward gay people was not the point I was making. I can see I do way too much meandering when I write a post. Sorry. It was about how butches dealt with the violence that I was talking about and how that affected me as a kid. It was impressive to me at that time. I wanted to be that. I wanted to be a dangerous butch when I grew up. And then I talked about how as I got older I moved away from wanting to emulate the butches I knew because of some of the things I saw in their relationships. And then how I worked through that and back out the other side.

And for me it still is about making my wife happy. Even though I know I cannot be responsible for another person’s happiness, I just make damn sure I am never responsible for her unhappiness. That seems to work pretty well.

[Cin]

I doubt it. I think it's all true, what I am saying AND what you are. I think a lot of those femmes had a lot more power than it may have looked like from the outside, as did some straight women. There was not much social reinforcement of the power of butch women in their relationships. And no economic or state. I definitely saw women adopt roles in their relationships. Of course they did. But it was different from heterosexual relationships, and their understanding of it was very different from what we imagine it was like.
And I was very young when I become aware of butches. I barely registered femmes until I got a bit older. My interpretations may be skewed by my limited understanding of what I was seeing. But we interpret the world the way we see it and form our personal beliefs based on these experiences, even though they may be skewed for a variety of reasons. I have no doubt it isn't as simple as my 10 year old brain imagined. And just like now, there is no one way of being butch or femme or being in a butch femme relationship. Your original post that i responded to just struck me and brought up some deeply entrenched memories. So i was like, that's wasn't my experience. I don't think entrenched is exactly the word i'm looking for. Deeply moving, deeply important, deeply personal, deeply affecting, damn I hate it when I can't find the right word.

[Apocalipstic]

Really interesting and thought provoking thread!

As a child coming up in the 60's, 70's and 80's I strongly knew I would never get married and if I did...I would keep my name.

Older now. For me, if I think of things in a heteronormative sense, it would make more sense to take the name of the Butch I love, rather than have that of my abusive father, though I have made peace with that
name.

I don't know if I ever will be in a marriage situation, at 50 it seems unlikely, though not out of the question. I'm really not sure what I would do.

[imperfect_cupcake]

everyone is still, even though ive said it four times now doing this

heteronormative ritual = bad.

yes of course I got my feminine rituals from a white middle class heteronrmative culture. duh. I didnt grow up in a vaccume. I had to do years and years of work to understand which things I was doing because I adored them and which things I did because I was afaird not to, or which things I did because I hadn't thougjt about not doing them.

it took me a good 8 years of pretty full on self deconstruction.

if I took someone's name I would be doing it by choose but its *still* a white European heterosexual ritual. to say it isnt is like saying you got it from matrians or made it up yourself. do I own that it is (acknowledge this where I borrowing it from?). YES.

why is that so hard? I took some Jewish dutch heterosexual rituals too, cause that was my wife's back ground and her upbringing.

I dont see people really grasping what I'm saying yet.

[Martina]

to say it isnt is like saying you got it from matrians or made it up yourself. do I own that it is (acknowledge this where I borrowing it from?). YES.

why is that so hard?

who is saying this? where else would it come from? I do think when material conditions are different, the same "content" can look the same, but not BE the same. But I've beaten that dead horse too.

[Martina]

It was a long road home. And I’m happy to have arrived a proud butch woman married to a proud femme woman. It’s our dance and sometimes I lead and sometimes I follow. And I’m happy either way. I do not live the butch femme relationships I grew up seeing, I don’t share the ideals of the butches I knew and listened to as a kid.

I was thinking about your arc and how mine is kind of the opposite. Less intense, I think, but kind of sad.

I had no problem identifying with older femmes. They kicked ass. I did not myself ID as femme for a while after I came out. But the femmes I had met impressed me. When I came to ID as femme, it was uncomplicated and somewhat liberating. Now, I do not like what it conjures in others when I say I ID as femme. I do not like the assumptions they make. I know as many or more kick ass femmes, femmes to respect. But the identity seems less liberating. On the contrary. And as a result, over the last five years or so, I have felt myself become less attached to it.

I liked when HB said in one of her posts something like yes, she is femme and beyond that "meh." I am not the kind of person that people now think of when they hear the word femme. And I am way too old to be educating. I am still quite happy with lesbian and dyke. It's nothing that I have done to change. It's more that the world has changed and the understanding of the ID has changed. It really no longer fits me.

[girl_dee]

everyone is still, even though ive said it four times now doing this

heteronormative ritual = bad.

yes of course I got my feminine rituals from a white middle class heteronrmative culture. duh. I didnt grow up in a vaccume. I had to do years and years of work to understand which things I was doing because I adored them and which things I did because I was afaird not to, or which things I did because I hadn't thougjt about not doing them.

it took me a good 8 years of pretty full on self deconstruction.

if I took someone's name I would be doing it by choose but its *still* a white European heterosexual ritual. to say it isnt is like saying you got it from matrians or made it up yourself. do I own that it is (acknowledge this where I borrowing it from?). YES.

why is that so hard? I took some Jewish dutch heterosexual rituals too, cause that was my wife's back ground and her upbringing.

I dont see people really grasping what I'm saying yet.

i thought it was a given that we adopted this practice as most of out other ones from straight folks.

Not sure what you were exactly looking for, but for me, it was just a given.

[DapperButch]

And I am way too old to be educating. I am still quite happy with lesbian and dyke. It's nothing that I have done to change. It's more that the world has changed and the understanding of the ID has changed. It really no longer fits me.

Please don't stop. Your voice is needed. Your voice is appreciated. People are listening. We need femme voices that carry our butch/femme history. I have loved reading every one of your posts on this thread and I bet I am not alone.

Thank you for being here, Martina. We have lost voices here (and there), for a number of reasons. Let us keep you.

Keep talking. Keep educating. We need it. We appreciate it.

The youngins' are absorbing it. I promise.

[stepfordfemme]

I was thinking about your arc and how mine is kind of the opposite. Less intense, I think, but kind of sad.

I had no problem identifying with older femmes. They kicked ass. I did not myself ID as femme for a while after I came out. But the femmes I had met impressed me. When I came to ID as femme, it was uncomplicated and somewhat liberating. Now, I do not like what it conjures in others when I say I ID as femme. I do not like the assumptions they make. I know as many or more kick ass femmes, femmes to respect. But the identity seems less liberating. On the contrary. And as a result, over the last five years or so, I have felt myself become less attached to it.

I liked when HB said in one of her posts something like yes, she is femme and beyond that "meh." I am not the kind of person that people now think of when they hear the word femme. And I am way too old to be educating. I am still quite happy with lesbian and dyke. It's nothing that I have done to change. It's more that the world has changed and the understanding of the ID has changed. It really no longer fits me.

I'm sorry but I feel like I'm missing a huge point here: how has the understanding of femme changed?

I, personally, can't deny my identity because of others assumptions.

I still view femmes as kick ass, brave women worthy of respect. I still see these women as liberating. I am still stepping outside of lesbian norms to be who we are.

I am asking out of clarity, because your post comes from Personal I space, but you say the word educating in there.

From my I space as a young femme, I prefer to share experiences rather than be educated. I love to learn about b/f history, but I do reject that somehow I've lost some original concept of femme.

Maybe this is for another thread?

[Cin]

I was thinking about your arc and how mine is kind of the opposite. Less intense, I think, but kind of sad.

I had no problem identifying with older femmes. They kicked ass. I did not myself ID as femme for a while after I came out. But the femmes I had met impressed me. When I came to ID as femme, it was uncomplicated and somewhat liberating. Now, I do not like what it conjures in others when I say I ID as femme. I do not like the assumptions they make. I know as many or more kick ass femmes, femmes to respect. But the identity seems less liberating. On the contrary. And as a result, over the last five years or so, I have felt myself become less attached to it.

I liked when HB said in one of her posts something like yes, she is femme and beyond that "meh." I am not the kind of person that people now think of when they hear the word femme. And I am way too old to be educating. I am still quite happy with lesbian and dyke. It's nothing that I have done to change. It's more that the world has changed and the understanding of the ID has changed. It really no longer fits me.

I don’t think I said I had trouble identifying with the older butches I knew/saw growing up. I identified pretty strongly. And by the time I could get away with getting into bars I followed them around like a puppy dog. But there were other mitigating factors for me that caused me to question if this was a road I wanted to go down. One was my inability at that young and impressionable age to understand as you explained “material power differences are what maintain oppression, not ideology alone.” So what I saw from the butches at the bar looked to me like macho behavior and I translated that as a belief in their inherent superiority over their femmes and women in general. I have no doubt it wasn’t ‘exactly’ like that and there was much more going on, but I could not understand that yet.

Then I had this insane period where I married a man or should I say boy, because we were both still teenagers. I came to my senses rather quickly and realized there was never any doubt that I would partner with women. How this partnership would look was up for negotiation. I would always choose women to love, nurture and support. I had no interest in wasting energy on men. And the butch/femme dynamic, as I was wrongly interpreting it, looked like it had no place in my ideology. When I was wrestling with my identity and trying to decide if I was a butch or a lesbian it was the 1980’s and gender theory was still a thing of the future. I had no idea yet that being both a butch and feminist were not mutually exclusive. I became very interested in feminism and feminist theory. Looking back over butch femme history it is clear to me now that the butches and femmes of the 40’s and 50’s could easily be considered early feminists. They certainly took sex, a pretty much male focused act, and made it about women. All about women, but in a very hot queered version of opposites attract. Pretty cool that. However, I missed that point too as a young feminist lesbian.

One thing about the butches of my youth, they were all she’s. Nobody was male identified. In that time frame being butch was just that, being butch, it was about carrying female masculinity. It was liberating and uncomplicated, end of story. A much simpler time. There was never the question of an end game, of the possibility of transitioning. Fast forward twenty years and once again I find myself confronted with another challenging and very complicated twist. Big changes. I am still pulling apart and examining my place in the new butch femme world. I will say this much about butch femme culture, it is never boring.

And there have been times when I wondered if butch really fits me anymore. But I took such a long difficult road getting here, I fought my female masculinity so hard, I confused owning female masculinity with maleness. I had so many issues surrounding men/male to work through I didn't think i would ever be able to hold masculinity comfortably in my body. What I failed to realize is that it was there whether I chose to honor it or not. Masculinity is not owned by men or by patriarchy, femininity is not exclusively reserved for women. Femmes can hold femininity and masculinity, butches can hold masculinity and femininity and all the mixtures you can fathom. Now that i have worked that part out, at least most of the time, and made peace with it, I don't want to give up butch. It's a part of me and one I will fight for, just like I fought for woman as an identity that was mine, that no one could take. It was funny as soon as some family members adjusted to my butch identity they wanted to take away my female one. Like they can only handle one at a time, like identity is a singular sensation. Perhaps it's cognitive dissonance for them if I am a butch woman who holds female masculinity. They would be much happier if i picked a side. That's why I enjoy dressing in both men's and women's clothing. It's why I wear both men's and women's underwear. Not at the same time of course. I think I wandered way off the point of this thread. Sorry.

[Cin]

I am asking out of clarity, because your post comes from Personal I space, but you say the word educating in there.

I'm not going to speak for Martina, because, well because I can't, not being her and all, but I just wanted to say that when I read her post I took it to mean that she did not want to educate people on what SHE means personally when she says she is a femme. And not on what femme in general needs to mean to everyone. She said "I am not the kind of person that people now think of when they hear the word femme. And I am way too old to be educating."

Maybe I took it wrong.

[Martina]

I still view femmes as kick ass, brave women worthy of respect.

I said, "I know as many or more kick ass femmes, femmes to respect." I was referring to the present time.

I would refer you to HB's many good posts about what it is like to say you are femme and be met with stereotypes that are so off the mark that you have to address the issue.

And, yes, I meant educating about me. Thanks, Tick. Educating in the sense of helping someone realize that femme isn't only . . . whatever they were thinking. When that stuff comes up alot, it makes you think. Plus I look around and in a way, it isn't me anymore. It could be generational. If so, I am not saying femme has lost anything. Just that it may no longer fit me well enough to claim it.

[stepfordfemme]

I said, "I know as many or more kick ass femmes, femmes to respect." I was referring to the present time.

I would refer you to HB's many good posts about what it is like to say you are femme and be met with stereotypes that are so off the mark that you have to address the issue.

And, yes, I meant educating about me. Thanks, Tick. Educating in the sense of helping someone realize that femme isn't only . . . whatever they were thinking. When that stuff comes up alot, it makes you think. Plus I look around and in a way, it isn't me anymore. It could be generational. If so, I am not saying femme has lost anything. Just that it may no longer fit me well enough to claim it.

That totally answered my misunderstanding. Thanks

[imperfect_cupcake]

to be honest Martina I I'm.starting to feel to tired to claim it since I came home. it feels more like a constant frustrating argument here than it did in London..

I may decided to ID as it as I have dome the past 10 years: mostly privately. then I can avoid all of the boo hah I can deal with anymore.

I used to be big into the hoo ha. but I can't be arsed with the assumptions nor the tiring "no I'm not a femme like that" or "no I'm not looking for a butch like that" assumptions.

I dont happen to think the butch femme way of being in a relationship is anything more special than the other ways my friends are in relationships. I hear from all kinds of groups ive joined (then quit), how extra queer we are, how special we are, Ive recently heard of butches being "basically like men - feed em and fuck em" in one if these groups, another trotteted out the a tired old Bullshit of "the femme rules" ( that used to be men-women written but over a decade ago someone changed the word "woman",to femme and its still going around) and I I try to date butches from Seattle but all I hear is "my butch this" or "cause you are a femme" that.

and after having been relatively free of that for 10 years it feels really suffocating and tiring to come back to.

I think maybe I'm just done with it.

thanks Martina xx

[Cin]

I hear from all kinds of groups ive joined (then quit), how extra queer we are, how special we are, Ive recently heard of butches being "basically like men - feed em and fuck em" in one if these groups, another trotteted out the a tired old Bullshit of "the femme rules" ( that used to be men-women written but over a decade ago someone changed the word "woman",to femme and its still going around) and I I try to date butches from Seattle but all I hear is "my butch this" or "cause you are a femme" that.


I remember crap like femme rules on email lists waaaay back when. And on the dash site stuff from that kind of mind set often found its way on a thread. On the lists I never heard much push back but there were voices on the dash site that spoke out. I notice we don't get too much femme rules/feed and fuck your butch kind of crap here. We don't get a lot of stuff here that we used to see on other sites and probably still do see on other sites. Well, obviously, since HB mentioned seeing it, often. I think we can credit Admin and the Mods for that. Of course you can't stop it all. People are allowed their opinions and as long as it isn't against the TOS they can post this stuff. But people are allowed to voice dissenting opinions here without fear of being attacked in ways that are against the TOS, which is what often happened on other sites. I remember having conversations with long time members of b/f forums back when the dash site was still in it's spider web like configuration(or whatever they call it, i'm no techie) about all the misogyny and sexism we were seeing but we didn't feel we had any recourse really. It was so prevalent it didn't feel safe to speak out. It wasn't very welcoming for those kinds of conversations. Or maybe we weren't bold enough yet and not aware that there were plenty of people who didn't view butch as hetero man and femme as hetero woman. I had some deep and meaningful conversations concerning misogyny, sexism, gender and all sorts of stuff on the dash site. But there was always this uncomfortable feeling for me of knowing that people were pretty much charged with policing themselves and if things got ugly somebody was going to bleed. I, personally, speaking from my ME place, noticed a real difference when I first came to this site as darkgazer and felt more comfortable talking about misogyny and sexism than I ever have before. It might be a mixture of having grown more open to examining stuff as a community over the years and being on a site with mods and admin who are very invested in keeping this place as cushioned from personal attacks and as civil as possible.

Over the years I have been told more than a few times to get a sense of humor when responding to one of those butch/man femme/het woman type of jokes. I don’t even find them funny before you change it to butch. I can’t believe that if I was a man I would only want to be fed and fucked. And as a butch I certainly would like a little more in my life. If you believe masculine beings are empty shells that only need to be filled with food and sex I can’t imagine how you will raise your man children. Or how you would explain to your girl child that she should be content partnering with someone whose needs run no deeper than eating and fucking. Or how you think it’s funny that you chose that kind of person for your life partner. There will be no end to this if you perpetuate it and pass it down to your offspring who in turn do the same. There are things like self fulfilling prophesies and if this is all you expect from men that’s probably all you will ever get. It is difficult to break the cycle. We as women have all been taught to participate whole heartedly in our own oppression. And many of us do, whether straight or gay. Expect more. Don't settle. Strong and silent doesn’t mean deep and mysterious, it usually means dumb and closed off with a pinch of bully thrown in. And if your man or your woman only wants to eat and fuck stop laughing and find another partner.

[Poss]

My wife and I changed our last names by way of hyphening them together. It gave us the feeling of formally coming together, as part of being married. My last name went first and hyphened my wife’s last name. There was a lot work involved in formally changing our names everywhere and on everything. It is worth it in the long run. We have only been married 2 years, as it only became legal in Australia in 2018. I’m still having to change my name, like when I had to do a COVID-19 test at our base hospital; they still had my old name on file. I keep a copy of our marriage certificate in my handbag just in case I need it.