Permission to propose

[stephfromMIT]

Did anyone seek permission from their perspective father-in-law to propose? I was at a Super Bowl party at Mandy's house when I pulled her dad aside and asked if it would be OK to propose. He smiled,"Of course Steph!" He hugged me, telling me,"Welcome to the family."

[Soon]

Steph,

You may want to consider deleting the last name of Amanda's family.

[stephfromMIT]

Steph,

You may want to consider deleting the last name of Amanda's family.

Good point!

[Corkey]

We both told the parental units that we were getting married. Somewhere down the line, they forgot. We were both older and independent of the family unit, so no I did not feel the need to ask. They don't believe in LGBT marriage so it's rather a moot point.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not quite sure if I'll ask weatherboi's parents for permission to collar him. If I do I expect a long line of questioning regarding his security, well being, health so on. Mr weatherboi's Dad and I will probably go for some drinks and discuss these matters away from Mrs weatherboi's mom and him. We're old school like that:).

[girl_dee]

no, HELL no.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So Steph, is Amanda going to request your hand in marriage to your parental units?

[BullDog]

I would not ask any formal permission from parents and family because I feel it is the person I am proposing to that has that right to make the decision whether she wants to marry me or not.

If I were to ask parents as a gesture of good will, then I would ask both parents if possible, not just the father. In my situation unfortunately that is not possible, so it would be just her Mother and possibly her two sons. But to be honest I think I would just propose without checking with family because I feel it is our decision. :)

[Soon]

No lover would ever think to ask anyone's "permission" (not even a word I would use) but mine when it comes to sharing a life together.

[weatherboi]

Usually at this point we get permission to do shots and my mom or pa-paw as i like to call her will head to the bar and i am following.

[The JD]

One of the things I really like about being queer is that it gives me more freedom to move outside of the centuries-old gender patterns, and think about what they represent. I can pick and choose what works for me, and assemble the best fit.

Asking my girlfriend's parents for permission to make a lifelong commitment to her (or her asking my parents for that same permission) is one of those gender-ownership rituals I'm happy to throw out the window.

[girl_dee]

Maybe i am not as old fashioned as i like to think, but the thought of someone asking (only) my father to marry me seems pre-historic, to me.

i just could never conform to the whole father walking me down the aisle thing and *giving* me away, as if i am his property.

i know others i am sure embrace this sort of ritual, but for me i find it archaic, especially since the mother of the bride (and groom) is excluded basically from the entire sacrament.

Edited to add, if someone really knew me they would also know i would find it insulting to ask anyone's permission to marry me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Since I'm the head of household cultural etiquette would require I ask his parents, cultural rituals for "me" are important and since in my family circle everyone knows I'm in command they aren't shocked nor is there a boy/girl assignment when these situations arise.

[G Snap!]

Since I asked chefhmboyrd to marry me, I would love to have the opportunity to ask his dad if I can marry him... but we lost the chef's dad two years ago. :(

[Bard]

I asked my dad and Desd'd dad before I proposed..

[The JD]

I asked my dad and Desd'd dad before I proposed..

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

[The_Lady_Snow]

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...


If Mr weatherboi's Dad says no, I'm going to have to be honest and tell him to damn bad he's been branded, NO TAKE BACKS!

It's not really about his parents for me, it's courtesy and a ritual.

[bright_arrow]

While I understand it is an old ritual, I do like that hy asked both father's. My family adores hym and we are all close as is, but I think it just made it go smoother, if that makes sense? No surprises, no omgwtfnooooo responses.. Of course, it dampened the moment when I went to tell my family and they all said "Yep we know!" :|

I asked hym what hy would of said had either one of our father's said no, and hy said hy would not have asked me then, hy would of proved hy was worthy of marrying me. I thought that was pretty sweet :blush: (Of course, I would of said yes regardless!)

All in all I suppose I see it as a way of making sure everyone is on the same page and accepting, at least in our case. That, and I did not have to tell my extended family - my mom did that :phonegab:

Mrs. Coppah
:police:

[bright_arrow]

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

Bard said had hy dad said no, hy would of done it anyways, hy just wanted his blessing.

If my dad said no, hy would talk to him to find out why.

[Bard]

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

I have to say for me asking Desd' dad was more of a respect thing asking his and her mothers blessing on our union I love and respect her father so very much had he said no I would have asked why and we would have talked long and hard about what would be bothering him BUT I would have asked Desd and married her NO MATTER WHAT anyone said:police:

My dad well I asked him if I could marry Desd cause he had asked me long ago not to get involved with anyone till Goose was adopted so that the EX could not use her against me

[QueenofSmirks]

What would you have done if the answer had been no?

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around...

I assume most people who do follow this ritual are already certain the answer is going to be "yes", so probably not much real risk there.

[Okiebug61]

Maybe i am not as old fashioned as i like to think, but the thought of someone asking (only) my father to marry me seems pre-historic, to me.

i just could never conform to the whole father walking me down the aisle thing and *giving* me away, as if i am his property.

i know others i am sure embrace this sort of ritual, but for me i find it archaic, especially since the mother of the bride (and groom) is excluded basically from the entire sacrament.

Edited to add, if someone really knew me they would also know i would find it insulting to ask anyone's permission to marry me.


I am 150% behind you on this.

[macele]

i don't want to do anything that looks heterosexual when it comes to a relationship. some things are obviously a must. but asking a father, or mother, ... to marry? i don't think so. i just don't want the marriage thing, ... set up for man and woman, ... husband and wife. they don't want me to have it, ... why the hell should i want it! keep it. if "we" decide to "marry", i don't want heterosexual people there lol.

[BullDog]

Everyone has the right to choose which traditions they will follow and what fits in with their extended family dynamics.

This particular tradition of asking the father (only) for permission isn't something that feels good to me. For me it harkens to a time when women didn't get to make their own choices about who they could marry, and women had to defer to men being head of household and making all the important decisions without the wife/mother having input.

So for me, no, I wouldn't follow this even if I could.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So Steph, is Amanda going to request your hand in marriage to your parental units?



Steph!!!!! I see you!!!


What say you?

[stephfromMIT]

I sought her Dad's permission. :confused: (I mentioned this in the OP)

[Corkey]

I sought her Dad's permission. :confused: (I mentioned this in the OP)

Snow wants to know if Amanda is going to ask your dad...

[stephfromMIT]

Snow wants to know if Amanda is going to ask your dad...

No. See my previous post.

[Okiebug61]

What if her dad had said no?

[stephfromMIT]

Good question Okie! We probably would've married without their economic support.

[Ginger]

Everyone has the right to choose which traditions they will follow and what fits in with their extended family dynamics.

This particular tradition of asking the father (only) for permission isn't something that feels good to me. For me it harkens to a time when women didn't get to make their own choices about who they could marry, and women had to defer to men being head of household and making all the important decisions without the wife/mother having input.

So for me, no, I wouldn't follow this even if I could.


Voice of reason.

Exactly.

[Ginger]

Good question Okie! We probably would've married without their economic support.


Do you mean "will marry" without their economic support? I thought the marriage was in the future. Just trying to keep the narrative straight, no pun intended.

[Ginger]

Good question Okie! We probably would've married without their economic support.

This is an interesting answer to Okie's question asking if you would have married without your partner's dad's approval.

[Ginger]

No lover would ever think to ask anyone's "permission" (not even a word I would use) but mine when it comes to sharing a life together.


I so feel the same way. I think the presence of family at life's major turning points and rituals is a good thing, but I never awaited their approval or permission to make my life choices.

[Okiebug61]

Good question Okie! We probably would've married without their economic support.

Economic support, ah OK so this is very traditional. The parents of the bride are paying for the wedding. Are you paying for the honeymoon?

[spritzerJ]

I think that IF I was ever going to marry again...
I would not ask Stoney's mom and hy probably wouldn't ask my mom.

marriage is not going to happen... 'cause the whole marriage thing I've tried several ways. And I've managed to stick to 1 contract in my life. That was the donor contract. So I'm thinking I'll end up with a contract like that or something just ours.

However,
I do however think it would be humorous to listen to the moms talk to each other about us formalizing a commitment. Because sometimes when hy and I talk about our mothers they are very alike. And if I had my sense of humor and a suit of armor on it could be really funny.

[Words]

I thought there were going to be two brides, no? I seem to remember Steph said something in another thread about calling each other wife after they're married...Steph, is that correct?

Words

[stephfromMIT]

Scout-You're right, the wedding hasn't happened. What I meant was: the wedding would happen, even without the economic support of my future in-laws.

[stephfromMIT]

Words-You are absolutely right! I will be her wife, and she will be mine.

[Words]

Thanks Steph...just didn't want to fall into the trap of assuming that because you wear men's underwear etc, you consider yourself the groom/husband:)

Words

[BullDog]

LOL Words. Well if I do get married I will be the groom and wearing a tuxedo. So you never can tell. ;)

[Tony]

I'm kind of an old fashioned guy who holds on to some rituals. With my second wife, she had three children. Her daughter, the youngest, was displaced 1,000 miles from her home & friends right after 8th grade graduation when her mother moved up here to me after doing LDR for a year. We discussed marriage but I did take one on one time with the kids to tell them my intent & in essence ask their permission. I was fairly sure it would be yes because their mom was very happy. However, had it been no, I doubt we would have married. The children are part of the package & they need to be just as happy. In the end, they were thrilled, I proposed, she said yes & both her sons walked her down the aisle.
Just my experience.

[Okiebug61]

I think that IF I was ever going to marry again...
I would not ask Stoney's mom and hy probably wouldn't ask my mom.

marriage is not going to happen... 'cause the whole marriage thing I've tried several ways. And I've managed to stick to 1 contract in my life. That was the donor contract. So I'm thinking I'll end up with a contract like that or something just ours.

However,
I do however think it would be humorous to listen to the moms talk to each other about us formalizing a commitment. Because sometimes when hy and I talk about our mothers they are very alike. And if I had my sense of humor and a suit of armor on it could be really funny.

Red and I think commitment ceremonies are cool but as long as marriage is considered a religious ceremony that is governed by the feds, states or cities then we are not into that. We are guaranteed separation of Church and State until that takes place it's no marriage for us.

[Words]

LOL Words. Well if I do get married I will be the groom and wearing a tuxedo. So you never can tell. ;)

That's what I mean, you should never assume:)

BTW - congrats on the anniversary!

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

I get it now, so you are in a heteronormative/straight relationship, therefore you being butch=male and she being femme=female.

So since you are butch=male you went with the whole ask for her hand in marriage etc etc.


I get it.

I thought I'd share a thread Mrs Arcstriker started for couples such as yourselves here is the link

CLICK ME (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5583)

You'd probably get more traditional advice from them than most of us.

Good luck on your nuptials!!:)

[Ginger]

I'm kind of an old fashioned guy who holds on to some rituals. With my second wife, she had three children. Her daughter, the youngest, was displaced 1,000 miles from her home & friends right after 8th grade graduation when her mother moved up here to me after doing LDR for a year. We discussed marriage but I did take one on one time with the kids to tell them my intent & in essence ask their permission. I was fairly sure it would be yes because their mom was very happy. However, had it been no, I doubt we would have married. The children are part of the package & they need to be just as happy. In the end, they were thrilled, I proposed, she said yes & both her sons walked her down the aisle.
Just my experience.


And your reasons for not marrying, if the kids had been opposed to it, would have been out of putting them first, and being compassionate about their needs. It shows good parental instinct.

My sense is that (ironically) if they had been opposed to the marriage and your response was not to marry, that would have prompted them to trust you more, and it might have put them on a path to accept the marriage at a later point.

But a partner's parents are not in the same category as a partner's kids, and the response comes from a different place. (Goes without saying but I'm saying it anyway)

[BullDog]

That's what I mean, you should never assume:)

BTW - congrats on the anniversary!

Words

Thank you! It is not a wedding anniversary but very meaningful for us. :)

[Tony]

And your reasons for not marrying, if the kids had been opposed to it, would have been out of putting them first, and being compassionate about their needs. It shows good parental instinct.

My sense is that (ironically) if they had been opposed to the marriage and your response was not to marry, that would have prompted them to trust you more, and it might have put them on a path to accept the marriage at a later point.

But a partner's parents are not in the same category as a partner's kids, and the response comes from a different place. (Goes without saying but I'm saying it anyway)

And needless to say, if the kids weren't ok with it, she wouldn't have been either. I made sure to include, bond & form a relationship with her kids from the very beginning. It was a respect issue as well.

[princessbelle]

LOL Words. Well if I do get married I will be the groom and wearing a tuxedo. So you never can tell. ;)

Just wanted to quote that and swoon again. ;)

But in regards to asking the father before the bride....

My view is what other's have said. It reminds me of the time that the women had no say about who they married or when. A bio man asked the father, they shook on it and there may have been a dowry in the works and that was that. It had as much to do with money as it did the girl, IMO. Next thing the girl was told she was getting married. End of story. Sounds horrible.


On the flip side though, i do believe it is sorta ok to tell the parents or family prior to asking the wife. Key word is "tell or inform". That's my view on it though.

I mean to each his/hys/her own, but that would be creepy to me. My father is deceased, but if he were still alive, i don't think i would like that at all.

[The_Lady_Snow]

And needless to say, if the kids weren't ok with it, she wouldn't have been either. I made sure to include, bond & form a relationship with her kids from the very beginning. It was a respect issue as well.


This rings true for *me*, if The Pack says no, then no kinda long lasting relationship will form. That's a whole other thread...

[Tony]

This rings true for *me*, if The Pack says no, then no kinda long lasting relationship will form. That's a whole other thread...

Absolutely true dat! If kids ain't happy, mama ain't happy.
If mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. ;-)

[stephfromMIT]

Lady-I'm not trans.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Lady-I'm not trans.

I know, I gathered this from what *you* told me.

butch=male

femme=female


I NEVER assign or assume gender roles, I go with what people tell me they are or how they live.

[Greyson]

Absolutely true dat! If kids ain't happy, mama ain't happy.
If mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. ;-)



I was raised in a very strong matriarchial family. Most of the women raised the family primarily on their own and worked. In my extended family you want to pass mustard with my mom, her sisters, and my twin sister.

[Soon]

Red and I think commitment ceremonies are cool but as long as marriage is considered a religious ceremony that is governed by the feds, states or cities then we are not into that. We are guaranteed separation of Church and State until that takes place it's no marriage for us.

Religion is only involved if the couple chooses to involve it. A marriage is just as valid in the eyes of the State without any religious involvement--hence the term civil marriage is used in the fight for marriage equality so people wont think we are demanding any of their church's participation or approval.

[Tony]

I was raised in a very strong matriarchial family. Most of the women raised the family primarily on their own and worked. In my extended family you want to pass mustard with my mom, her sisters, and my twin sister.

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.

:|

Fo' realz???


I identify with Greyson's dynamic, coming from a Latina/o Mexican/Chicana/o culture it's our women who say how
things roll..

[firegal]

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.

Whats also wonderfull is women are also married to women in power!

[Tony]

:|

Fo' realz???

No disrespect, Lady, just my personal observation & opinion.
And I did say its a good thing. Women have a much better reasoning power than we do. IMO

[The_Lady_Snow]

No disrespect, Lady, just my personal observation & opinion.
And I did say its a good thing. Women have a much better reasoning power than we do. IMO

Funny, I don't think communication is gender based...

Also scientifically YOU have the same brain I do...

So your observations make no sense to me...

[aishah]

I get it now, so you are in a heteronormative/straight relationship, therefore you being butch=male and she being femme=female.

So since you are butch=male you went with the whole ask for her hand in marriage etc etc.


I get it.

I thought I'd share a thread Mrs Arcstriker started for couples such as yourselves here is the link

CLICK ME (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5583)

You'd probably get more traditional advice from them than most of us.

Good luck on your nuptials!!:)

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks (heteronormative or not).

[The_Lady_Snow]

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks.


:| I must of read it wrong

My apologies

Shit, sorry Steph I was totally mistaken about the thread I put the saddle ahead of the horse:|

[apretty]

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.

This isn't funny, having a vagina doesn't make you a passive aggressive communicator.

[Tcountry]

To me it is tradition& respect to ask the head of household ..or at least tell them, hey this is what I'd like to do...
its not about the response ..its about showing them the respect of asking.

Of course there are limits ...if she isn't close to family, if family has left this physical world, things like that....but traditionally, if possible...yes I would respect the head of household. But that's just me...& thats assuming I would be the one asking.

[aishah]

c. and i have exchanged rings. i don't know if we'll ever have a ceremony, and we can't get legally married. my parents were gone well before we got together and he doesn't have a close relationship with his, although i might be meeting his dad at christmas. neither of us are big fans of tradition so there was no asking (nor would there ever be). the only person whose consent really matters to either of us is our own.

[Martina]

the head of household ..or at least tell them


ick if that is assumed to be dad as a rule

[Tony]

Funny, I don't think communication is gender based...

Also scientifically YOU have the same brain I do...

So your observations make no sense to me...

Well, I don't claim to make sense. Lol. I was also agreeing w/Greyson but obviously not communicating well. I believe women are in charge AND they should be. Albeit, more visibly, but I still think more than people believe they are. And again, THAT'S A GOOD THING! ;-)

[bright_arrow]

This is a slight derail, but with the talk of religion and rituals and wedding and heterosexuality and such, I figured I may as well mention our wedding and how/why we did what we did, if there was even a reason.

We were legally married within an inter-faith church by a pagan priestess. We were given a blessing by a fellow pastor because he wanted to be there, and his religion would not allow him to marry us so that was the best gift he could give us.

The church we were married in is one of Bard's favorite places. It was not a matter of religion, or how it may be more acceptable to society - it was simply a place that was sacred to her. Mary, our priestess, was absolutely wonderful. We wanted more of a spiritual ceremony than religious. She spoke of the elements, the higher being, the union of our families - vague enough not to offend any of my Catholic family but enough to feel the love.

We had a unity sand with three vases to bring Bard's daughter into the ceremony with us, because it was not a bonding of not two but three. We were handfasted, then exchanged rings because as Mary put it: we can not be together physically all the time, so the rings are a representation of our bond and commitment towards each other.

I am her wife, and she is my husband, wife, husbutch - we have not settled on an exact term. Normally, she is just my wife. My father (lovingly) will refer to her as my husband, and she occasionally refers to herself as my hus(house)butch. There is fluidity in the pronouns, but we don't care. I wore a dress because I like dresses, and she wore a tux because she likes tuxes. It was not a matter of her representing the 'man' in the relationship. It's just how she dresses, and it is no different than her everyday wear.

Would our wedding fit the stereotypical heterosexual wedding? Yes. Do I care? Not in the least. I got married, our family and friends were there to celebrate it with us, and we put aside enough wedding money to come celebrate with you fine folks. Win, win!

:rrose:

[Ciaran]

And I did say its a good thing. Women have a much better reasoning power than we do. IMO

I detest this sort of gender stereotyping. In my mind, it's the reverse of "women cannot ...." way of thinking and it's the same bull****.

Doesn't matter whether you say it's a good thing or whether it's seen as pro-women. In my opinion, it's crude gender stereotyping.

[Kobi]

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master. :twitch:

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

[aishah]

the head of our household was my mom...even though she did remarry a few years after getting divorced. she made the decisions no matter what.

i think that's one of the funny things about our relationship...i love it when he tops, or takes on the role of daddy (we take turns, it's cool)...but he usually defers to me when it comes to decision making.

with traditional marriage stuff, a lot of the ickiness i have with it is around class and cultural differences. even if my parents were alive, there'd be no asking, although my mom's input would probably be a part of the process of deciding whether the relation even GOT that far. i mean, my mom's opinion mattered a lot to me so if she thought it was a bad idea then i'd stop and question why, though it wouldn't be a make or break thing. most people don't really get legally married, though, so i don't think it would be an issue that we can't and don't want to...we'd fit right in with the rest of my family, lol.

but paying for the wedding and economic support and all that...i get that some people can do that or want to do that, but it completely and utterly blows my mind. i don't know anybody growing up whose parents did that (or were able to). c.'s extended family is pretty upper class and traditional so i guess they see things that way when it comes to his cousins and stuff, but for me it's mind-boggling. i mean, i know people do it, it's just very far removed from the way i grew up and the relationships i was around, so it's hard for me to imagine.

[Tony]

I detest this sort of gender stereotyping. In my mind, it's the reverse of "women cannot ...." way of thinking and it's the same bull****.

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

[stephfromMIT]

desd-Other than our officiant being a UU minister, our weddings are quite similiar.

Kobi-VERY interesting info on traditions and their origins.

[BullDog]

This is a slight derail, but with the talk of religion and rituals and wedding and heterosexuality and such, I figured I may as well mention our wedding and how/why we did what we did, if there was even a reason.

We were legally married within an inter-faith church by a pagan priestess. We were given a blessing by a fellow pastor because he wanted to be there, and his religion would not allow him to marry us so that was the best gift he could give us.

The church we were married in is one of Bard's favorite places. It was not a matter of religion, or how it may be more acceptable to society - it was simply a place that was sacred to her. Mary, our priestess, was absolutely wonderful. We wanted more of a spiritual ceremony than religious. She spoke of the elements, the higher being, the union of our families - vague enough not to offend any of my Catholic family but enough to feel the love.

We had a unity sand with three vases to bring Bard's daughter into the ceremony with us, because it was not a bonding of not two but three. We were handfasted, then exchanged rings because as Mary put it: we can not be together physically all the time, so the rings are a representation of our bond and commitment towards each other.

I am her wife, and she is my husband, wife, husbutch - we have not settled on an exact term. Normally, she is just my wife. My father (lovingly) will refer to her as my husband, and she occasionally refers to herself as my hus(house)butch. There is fluidity in the pronouns, but we don't care. I wore a dress because I like dresses, and she wore a tux because she likes tuxes. It was not a matter of her representing the 'man' in the relationship. It's just how she dresses, and it is no different than her everyday wear.

Would our wedding fit the stereotypical heterosexual wedding? Yes. Do I care? Not in the least. I got married, our family and friends were there to celebrate it with us, and we put aside enough wedding money to come celebrate with you fine folks. Win, win!

:rrose:

Yes exactly! I wore a tux last year to the Reunion and will wear one this year. If I get married I will be wearing one as well. I will be a butch groom, not representing the man. :)

I do not subscribe to butch=male; femme=female. Some do, but I do not.

[bright_arrow]

the head of our household was my mom...even though she did remarry a few years after getting divorced. she made the decisions no matter what.

i think that's one of the funny things about our relationship...i love it when he tops, or takes on the role of daddy (we take turns, it's cool)...but he usually defers to me when it comes to decision making.

with traditional marriage stuff, a lot of the ickiness i have with it is around class and cultural differences. even if my parents were alive, there'd be no asking, although my mom's input would probably be a part of the process of deciding whether the relation even GOT that far. i mean, my mom's opinion mattered a lot to me so if she thought it was a bad idea then i'd stop and question why, though it wouldn't be a make or break thing. most people don't really get legally married, though, so i don't think it would be an issue that we can't and don't want to...we'd fit right in with the rest of my family, lol.

but paying for the wedding and economic support and all that...i get that some people can do that or want to do that, but it completely and utterly blows my mind. i don't know anybody growing up whose parents did that (or were able to). c.'s extended family is pretty upper class and traditional so i guess they see things that way, but for me it's mind-boggling. i mean, i know people do it, it's just very far removed from the way i grew up and the relationships i was around, so it's hard for me to imagine.

We did not intend for anyone to help us pay. Our parents offered to pay for the reception 50/50, and we felt it would be rude to decline such a gift. My parents passed down the rings they were married with 25 years ago. I am the oldest, and the first one married, and my father went above and beyond and paid for our dj and cake. My sister will be given the same. Everything else we paid for ourselves.

We were set on pizza and wings in a big log cabin by some waterfalls, but apparently that was too eccentric for my father (and thus the offering to pay for the reception came). :mohawk:

[Ciaran]

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

No apology needed.

However, you were sterotyping. You said women "have much better reasoning power" than men. If that's not stereotyping, I don't know what is.

I know that you said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot". However, I was simply responding that, in my view, crude gender stereotypes such as "women have much better reasoning power than men" are all part of that same gender stereotyping equation which discredits the individual.

[bright_arrow]

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

I believe Ciaran was saying it's the same as saying "Women cannot do ___ because only men can." "Men cannot 'reasonably communicate' because only women can."

That is how I read it, please correct me if I am wrong.

[bright_arrow]

Yes exactly! I wore a tux last year to the Reunion and will wear one this year. If I get married I will be wearing one as well. I will be a butch groom, not representing the man. :)

I do not subscribe to butch=male; femme=female. Some do, but I do not.

Bard mentions sometimes that mayhaps hy will lose hys butch card because hy can't do something "a butch should be able to do". This is in reference to say, car stuff. Some things we associate as more a male trait, but it is mostly in jest and not in a serious or condescending manner.

In our relationship, hy cooks because I am a limited cook, and I clean because I enjoy it whereas hy would prefer to just cook. Hy does most of the laundry, and I am often buying stuff to decorate the home. When the car breaks down, we go to a mechanic. Easy as that!

[Tony]

No apology needed.

However, you were sterotyping. You said women "have much better reasoning power" than men. If that's not stereotyping, I don't know what is.

I know that you said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot". However, I was simply responding that, in my view, crude gender stereotypes such as "women have much better reasoning power than men" are all part of that same gender stereotyping equation which discredits the individual.

I did say "I believe women have better reasoning power than men." I stand by that but I should have added, IMO. That's what I believe these threads & forums are about; voicing & discussing opinions. The word stereotype has a negative connotation, which come to think of it, might make for a good thread in itself.
The differences, perceptions of opinions versus stereotyping.

[Kobi]

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.



Ok I am twitching again.

In your eyes, women rule the world one way or another because we raised (and gave birth to btw) the men in power, and cuz we are married to the men in power. And, somehow more and more we are assuming that power and its not necessarily a bad thing.

Ok might be a back handed chauvinistic attempt at a compliment. Im not sure. Feels patronizing.

Have you even heard of the War on Women that is going on?

[Tony]

Ok I am twitching again.

In your eyes, women rule the world one way or another because we raised (and gave birth to btw) the men in power, and cuz we are married to the men in power. And, somehow more and more we are assuming that power and its not necessarily a bad thing.

Ok might be a back handed chauvinistic attempt at a compliment. Im not sure.

Have you heard of the War on Women that is going on?



Unfortunately, since you don't truly know me your perception of me is made via words in a screen. People that DO truly know me know that;
1. I am not chauvinistic.
2. I have HUGE respect for women.
3. I'm working on my communication skills, coupled with the fact that I seriously hate texting, but enjoy a good conversation, I'm finding this medium to be challenging.

I am sorry for your twitching.

[QueenofSmirks]

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks (heteronormative or not).

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".

[girl_dee]

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".



Me too, i'm confused. i hope i didn't speak up out of turn!

[aishah]

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".



snow referred steph to this thread:
Spouses/Partners of Transmen and transwomen... (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=645302) in the trans zone.
i got confused because i didn't think the thread was specifically about heteronormative relationships.

it's cool, we cleared up the confusion. (i think.) :D

[firegal]

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".



I think she was thinking of the "spouses/partners of transmen and transwomen" thread that stephmit also started.

[Ginger]

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master. :twitch:

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?




Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

[stephfromMIT]

I think she was thinking of the "spouses/partners of transmen and transwomen" thread that stephmit also started.

I didn't start that thread! I did post in it though. (once)

[princessbelle]

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women and in a very negative light. Shouldn't surprise me really. Anything to make us look weak or less than. Ugggg. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in everyday life even that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.

[Ginger]

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in even everyday life that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.




Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

[princessbelle]

Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it :)

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.

[Ginger]

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it :)

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.



I bet so many thoughtful couples are already doing that; carefully considering the meaning behind what they're doing and taking a conscious role in shaping it. I agree, it would be interested to hear about.

[Martina]

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.

[girl_dee]

in the end we all get to decide what works for us. For me, i don't tend to adopt the traditional ways. Like i haven't and would never take another's name in marriage. It' s lovely that some do but i am not giving up or changing my name for the sake of tradition. i feel like more of a well rounded individual with my own set of beliefs, spirituality and traditions, rather than adopting my partners. Again that's my own stance.

[Corkey]

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be. :)

[girl_dee]

When i tended bar i was told never to let a woman's shoe touch the bar, that it was bad luck.

i didn't get it.

[girl_dee]

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.

[Kobi]

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.


The history is fascinating to weed thru. The threshold thing has changed throughout the ages, differing in cultures and countries, and folklore. The point you make was valid at one time as well.

Interesting to see how things have changed and continue to change.

[princessbelle]

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be. :)

Absolutely!!!!! Bully and i have our own traditions as well. I find those very fascinating and also what the meanings of those are "way back when". I was just thinking it may be a good thread.

I didn't mean to imply we don't have our own traditions. As couples or singles.

Just thought it was interesting.

[Ginger]

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.


Fun! I could that being made contemporary by creative couples, for sure.

[Kobi]

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.


Or,

Tying the Knot - Calling marriage "tying the knot" stems from ancient times. The Danish used to tie two pieces of cord or ribbon together in the marriage ceremony to signify the couple’s becoming one. Later the custom spread to Holland and England.

http://limarriages.com/customs.html

One could spend hours (and I have cuz it is tickling my curiosity) trying to trace all the parts of traditions from all over the world. God only knows what the truth is tho. LOL.

[Ginger]

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.



Dear Tony,

I know you did not intend to offend anyone and were trying to be funny, but as a woman I feel extremely patronized by this post.

Sincerely,
Scout

[Kobi]

Unfortunately, since you don't truly know me your perception of me is made via words in a screen. People that DO truly know me know that;
1. I am not chauvinistic.
2. I have HUGE respect for women.
3. I'm working on my communication skills, coupled with the fact that I seriously hate texting, but enjoy a good conversation, I'm finding this medium to be challenging.

I am sorry for your twitching.


Considering this is an on line forum, all one has to go on is the words one uses and the thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes those words convey.

The medium is challenging. It is also challenging to deal with women who are well versed in how words are used.

BTW, things that are complimentary to women, dont make me twitch ;)

[Tony]

Dear Tony,

I know you did not intend to offend anyone and were trying to be funny, but as a woman I feel extremely patronized by this post.

Sincerely,
Scout

Dear Scout,
My deepest apologies. Yes, I was trying ( unsuccessfully) to be funny. Certainly did not mean to patronize or upset anyone. If someone can tell me how to remove the post, I will gladly do so.
Again, sorry.

[Bard]

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be. :)

I am with you on this and really it is what Desd and I did in our wedding it was held in a place that was special to me kind of like my place of peace. The Minister that gave us a blessing he is a dear friend that I have worked with for a long time and he is a man I go to when I am troubled part of his blessing was that we were already married that this was our sharing our comitment with our family and friends blending our family. My daughter was a very important part of the whole ceremony as the pagan minister said to us this in not a union of two but of three my Goose may be young but no less important. My Father was in the front row proud as hell when we were renting the tuxes desd and I had said to the fathers that they could have a vest color that matched our mothers, now I told my dad that Ihad changed his color to match my mom his responce to me was that I was to cahnge it back he was my father and he wanted to be just like me. Our parents were a important part of the wedding not because we expected them to help us oot with expences but becasue they wanted to help to make this day special for us. :bunchflowers: . There was a chance that our wedding would be protested as it was the first legal same sex wedding at Syracuse University and I can tell you my best man would have defended us to the hilt as would have the rest of my officers. I guess what I am trying to say is that I love and respect my fatehr - in - law I asked him for the privlage to marry into his family for his blessing I asked MY Father also for his blessing and because it was important to me that he be a part of one of his childrens wedding day. Our wedding day was a wonderful beautiful day filled with love and support it was amazing I know Desd and I are very blessed

[Parker]

Yes exactly! I wore a tux last year to the Reunion and will wear one this year. If I get married I will be wearing one as well. I will be a butch groom, not representing the man. :)

I do not subscribe to butch=male; femme=female. Some do, but I do not.

This. I love this - butch groom. I am tucking that away for the future. :winky:

Also, I dont subscribe to butch=male; femme=female either. :)

[Bard]

My Dad siad it all to us in his speech " I came here today with one wonderful daughter and now I have two" then he welcomed Desd to our family

[Ginger]

My Dad siad it all to us in his speech " I came here today with one wonderful daughter and now I have two" then he welcomed Desd to our family


Wow. Having just endured two years of a mother-in-law who hated me with a white-hot hate that poisoned every family gathering for me and finally resulted in me withdrawing from my partner's family completely—which means, of course, she won—I can only say, your post made me get a little weepy.

[BullDog]

I think it is awesome that Steph's future father-in-law welcomed her into the family and that Bard & Desd has support from the fathers as well.

[bright_arrow]

The end of my dad's toast "I wish them many years of happiness, and many children.. that they must raise themselves!"

I have yet to upload my father-in-law's speech.. I think I have it somewhere :)

[bright_arrow]

Steph, hope your wedding is hella fun! This is how my family is, LOL

by4leoXoDzs

Good luck! :jester: As you see, I suck at the Cha Cha!

[jac]

Permission...?

Ummm hmmm... nope, this isn't me. If I were to "technically" get married, which I really don't foresee happening, I would not ask for permission. Spritz and I have had discussions about our mothers, in length, to know that they are one in the same and with knowing THAT... there really isn't a need IMHO to irritate her with this sort of thing. I think I would, over time, be accepted as Spritz's mate and the same would go for her with my mother... but I know my mom wouldn't appreciate it, if the tables were turned, so I am going to assume that her mother wouldn't either.

[skeeter_01]

I asked her 2 sons who were 11 and 7 at the time...

[Bard]

I did ask Goose who was 7 she was all for it as she loves Desd so much and She loves her NEW Grandparents

[Ciaran]

I did ask Goose who was 7 she was all for it as she loves Desd so much and She loves her NEW Grandparents

I mis-read this at first (early morning here) and thought you'd asked for a girl's hand in marriage when you were aged 7. Reminded me of the first time I asked a girl to marry me - I was either 4 or 5. She said yes, but that we should wait until we were grown up. She then gave me a peck on the cheek and we went back to making daisy chains.


On the underlying issue of permission to marry. I strongly embrace family / extended family. The various twists and turns my life has taken in recent years have strengthened this feeling.

However, I wouldn't ask permission from the parents of my partner as I would view it as nothing more than ceremony or pretence as, if for whatever reason they refused "permission", I'd proceed with the marriage anyway if both my partner & I wanted that.

That said, given my sense of family, I'd very much want my partner's parents to be happy wig their daughter's choice of partner and to believe that I would do right by her, loving her with my heart and soul.

Children, if under the age of 18, are an extremely important part of the equation. Again, I wouldn't ask their permission but, assuming that they were living with my partner, their happiness and support of the marriage would be something approaching a pre-requisite for me. They wouldn't have a veto, per se, but I couldn't discount their feelings in a way that I could of unsupportive prospective in-laws.

Generally, I view the whole "permission to marry" concept as outdated and, similarly to most marriage rituals, it doesn't sit easy with me. I'm conservative and a traditionalist and I embrace many rituals and practices that would be viewed by moat in today's world as relics of the past. However, the marriage ones are just a complete turn off for me ..... Not certain why this is but I'be seen too many friends get married for the wedding, the big day and he excitement + expectation, often overlooking what the marriage is actually about which, in my view, is the expression of a life-long commitment to a partner, for better or worse.

[always2late]

My first marriage was to my son's father..and he did not ask my father's permission. Although I come from an Italian family that is VERY conscious of old traditions...I did not feel it necessary for anyone to get "permission" to marry me. Permission harkens back to the time when women were considered the property of their family, until such time as they were married. The permission aspect was not so much a blessing, as a transfer of said property.

That being said....at this point in my life should I decide to get married again, the only person I would seek an opinion from is my son. :)

[Martina]

It would never occur to me to ask a prospective partner's parents for her "hand."

[Ciaran]

It would never occur to me to ask a prospective partner's parents for her "hand."

If someone asked my parents for permission to marry me, my father would come out with some sort of wise-crack along the lines of, "Hallelujah - great to finally get Ciaran off our hands after decades of eating us out of house and home. Oh, and if you are ever stupid enough to lend Ciaran any money, write it off as you'll never see it again."

I should add that my dad is my best friend who warmly embraces my partners, respecting my decisions in this regard. In fact, my parents are hosting one of my exes for a week this coming Christmas.

[ruffryder]

For me it's not about seeking permission but instead a blessing. In the past it was the mother that was approached . If i was to do it again with my current love it would be her mother also and maybe her step dad. Her bio father is deceased. She wouldn't ask my parents either or my gram that raised me because my mom and gram are deceased and my father is unknown to me. I would have probably told my family myself and with her presence like in the past i did.


I did say "I believe women have better reasoning power than men." I stand by that but I should have added, IMO. That's what I believe these threads & forums are about; voicing & discussing opinions. The word stereotype has a negative connotation, which come to think of it, might make for a good thread in itself.
The differences, perceptions of opinions versus stereotyping.

I think it was Snow Who started a good thread about stereotypes of butches, femmes, trans, etc.. Anyone have the link? :)

[Tony]

This isn't funny, having a vagina doesn't make you a passive aggressive communicator.

My apologies. I just saw this. I was not being disrespectful. I was only trying to be funny. It was actually a line I saw on one of those Facebook postcard things. Again, no disrespect intended.

[Ciaran]

My apologies. I just saw this. I was not being disrespectful. I was only trying to be funny. It was actually a line I saw on one of those Facebook postcard things. Again, no disrespect intended.

Tony

Kudos to you for apologising. That takes guts.

That said, you've just admitted taking a comment from one of those irritating facebook picture posts and using it as your own.

That's sad. I've read enough of your posts to know you're an articulate individual with a reasonable grasp of language. I'd respectfully suggest limiting the replication of inane facebook comments in your own posts.

[Martina]

I wish her old threads would go away, especially if they are going to inspire sexist humor, but even if not. It makes me think of all the people who invested TIME, and some even a certain amount of concern and affection, in a poser. It's so fraudulant when someone does that. It makes you feel robbed. Hell, people posted their wedding videos on this thread.

[Electrocell]

I would if that is what the lady wanted but other than that no I wouldn't ask permission.

[Ciaran]

I wish her old threads would go away, especially if they are going to inspire sexist humor, but even if not. It makes me think of all the people who invested TIME, and some even a certain amount of concern and affection, in a poser. It's so fraudulant when someone does that. It makes you feel robbed. Hell, people posted their wedding videos on this thread.

Understand that. However,

a) it is not closed (if a moderator wants to close it, they will do so). Until then, I / we have the right to comment.

b) after the initial trolling, there has been a very interesting and valuable discussion here about many aspects of marriage. There is significant focus on LGBT persons getting legal rights to marry but, IMO, insignificant focus on a multitude of marriage-related customs and expectations.

c) no one should feel their time is wasted. The community, and how we respond to threads, is not about the original poster. In fact, this thread reiterates that as real members of the community have had a rich discussion. It might have originated from a troll (and, yes, I wish it didn't) but it has not been all bad.

[Martina]

Understand that. However,

a) it is not closed (if a moderator wants to close it, they will do so). Until then, I / we have the right to comment.


I am fully aware of that, Ciaran.

[Ciaran]

I am fully aware of that, Ciaran.

I was assuming that to be the case i.e. the fact that you posted on what was one of "I wish her old threads would go away" threads.

However, I'm not making a cheap dig. Rather, just making the point that the thread remains open and, to that extent, it remains live and should be considered so.

There have been many threads here (and previous sites) that were reignited months / years after they appeared to die - the fact that the initial poster was a troll doesn't, IMO, matter as the discussion has become a real, bone fide one on its own merits.