Who Should Have The Right To Marry?

[Nat]

The slippery slope argument that often comes up regarding gay marriage often gets me a bit unnerved.

Because there are people in this country who also can't have the marriage arrangement they want.

The thing that comes up most in my mind is polygamy - why not?

But there are other restrictions too. Age restrictions, relatedness restrictions (which vary by state).

Assuming we're talking about all participants being human and consenting - who should and should not have the right to marry and why?

[Scorp]

OMG Nat, this video is awesome!!! LOVE IT!!!

I may have to steal this and post it on facebook...

:)

[Electrocell]

LOL great video. As far as who should have the right to marry --------two consenting adults .

[The_Lady_Snow]

If you *general* want to get married and you're of age in your *general* state & wish to partake in marriage/weddings/nuptials/I Do's then it's your civil right to do so if you *still general* want.

I personally don't care so much about marrying someone than I do my rights...

[Hollylane]

OMG Nat, this video is awesome!!! LOVE IT!!!

I may have to steal this and post it on facebook...

:)

I did steal it, and put it on FB (great idea!)...It is frigging AWESOME! I never did really care for Samuel L. Jackson, but now...I am a HUGE fan.

[Nadeest]

In general, the relatedness issue is due to the genetics of the situation. Inbreeding tends to produce children with inherited problems, though I am probably phrasing this wrong. As far as the age of consent; yes, states have different ages when people are allowed to get married. Some allow minors (at or after a certain age) to get married, if the minor child has the parent's consent to the marriage. In general, the idea, to my mind, is that the state is trying to ensure that both parties to the marriage are consenting adults, or at least have the blessings of their parents to this marriage.

As far as polygamy goes, why not polyandry as well? Actually, I am in favor of legalizing polyamory.

The one thing that I am absolutely against is only allowing one type of sexual orientation to get married. My opinion is that if they are consenting adults, why shouldn't they get married if they wish to do so?

[iamkeri1]

For myself, personally, I am pretty strongly monogamous, but throughout my adult life I have intellectually seen the many advantages to "group" marriages of one kind or another. Four adults, joined in some kind of legal agreement provide incredible economic andvantages and stability for each other. Hell I don't care if 20 people want to share this kind of bond, but four is the group I have given most thought to.

Tkis kind of family provides the opportunity for more choices for the individuals involved. Want to go to school? "Sure we can afford that. The other three of us will support you whille to go so you can concentrate on going to school. And Hey... you can have dinner ready for us when we get home from work, and Oh yah maybe now we can have that garden we've been wanting and YOU can do the weeding." Want to have a baby or change careers or just take a few months off work because you're stressed out? All those things could be negotiated because of the multiple income factor in the family. Expenses would be greatly reduced as well. The home would have to be somewhat larger to assure private space for everyone, but comparing this unit to couples or individuals living separately, the amount of "stuff" they need to buy would be reduced. Less lawnmowers, less yard tools of all kinds, less refrigerators, washers, dryers, dishes, silverware, towels...and picture the potential for clothing swaps!

There would be lots more emotional support as well, less likelihood for loneliness, more potential to find an understanding person when you need to talk. If one partner dies or divorces, there are three remaining partnera to share the emotional and financial devastation.

It is not something that we are trained for in our society, but really, it makes a lot of sense.

Oh I meant to say, while in college, I read two books by Robert Rimmer that helped inform my beliefs. They are "The Harrad Experiment" and "Proposition 31"

Smooches,
Keri

[Angeltoes]

Any consenting adult, of course. I personally will never legally marry anyone again because I don't see the point anymore. If you love each other you stay together if you don't you go.

[Nat]

How about convicted serial murderers on death row?

[Angeltoes]

How about convicted serial murderers on death row?

They don't have the right to vote in the U.S...so why should they have the right to marry? I'm more interested in the fundamental rights of the average person.

[Glenn]

At least one condemned inmate gets married every two months in San Quentin. Even the most wicked scum get dozens of marriage proposals from women, and are allowed to marry.:confused: So, while they can, your average LBGT couple who probably never hurt anybody in their lives can't get married? NO!

[Kent]

I believe anyone in love should have the right to marry!!!

[firegal]

I believe anyone in love should have the right to marry!!!

Well i think anyone should have the right....but if your in jail your in jail.Your freedom has been taken away....till your out!

you cant go on vacation,you cant drive a car....you are incarcerated.

You cant go to a church or facility to be married.

Hazards of going to prison/or jail.

When you have done the time...then you can excercise that right...and get married where every you want and also pay for it!

[lusciouskiwi]

Any consenting adult, of course. I personally will never legally marry anyone again because I don't see the point anymore. If you love each other you stay together if you don't you go.

If same-sex marriage had been recognised back in 2005 AND international same-sex recognised, then maybe I'd still be living in the States. We were friends with a gay couple in the same situation, A is Italian and B is American. They split up eventually. It's really tough. I know a Chinese lesbian here in Malaysia. Her partner is American. The Malaysian partner is banned from the US for x years because somehow immigration figured out she was on her way to stay with her partner. :(

[Kätzchen]

The slippery slope argument that often comes up regarding gay marriage often gets me a bit unnerved.

Because there are people in this country who also can't have the marriage arrangement they want.

The thing that comes up most in my mind is polygamy - why not?

But there are other restrictions too. Age restrictions, relatedness restrictions (which vary by state).

Assuming we're talking about all participants being human and consenting - who should and should not have the right to marry and why?

Nat, I thought about you today and this forum thread...


Marriage is such a tricky subject. It really is.


I am not sure how the discussion about marriage will go, but when I was riding the train to work today I came across an article in a local, independent newspaper that covered issues Asian women are facing when they marry an American citizen. They leave their home country in search of a better life than the one they live in thier homeland and once here, Asian women are treated like slaves. Not only within their own marriages, but often because of not knowing who to turn to for help or violating their immigration status which largely operates in connection with their marital status, they end up working two or three jobs, have no life and suffer terrible emotional and physical patterns of abuse within the marriage they committed to, just to find a particular freedom they couldnt' find in their home country, etc.


Aside from the article I read this afternoon, I couldn't help but think of this forum discussion on what marriage means.


I think of marriage as an institution, in and of itself, but not as an institution that is a complete stand-alone project. To me, it is not just about two people who are in love and get married. It's never that simple, in my mind. While I believe that any parties consenting (human beings) - regardless of how they identify outside the heterocentric sphere - should be permitted to avail themselves of a marital contract (marriage), I also feel that marriage finds its roots in White Priviledge. What I am trying to say is that White Priviledge shares a martial arrangement with a heterocentric think-tank.


When I think about marriage, I think of it as also sharing a bed with economic opportunity, tax benefits, legal benefits, the benefit of aligning oneself with the widely held perception that 'if you're married, then you're a family' - but as most of us who identify somewhere on the continuum of what constitutes being Gay, Lesbian, Bi-, Trans, or Queer, we know intutitively that this is a false construct because we have subverted popular cultural values by constructing our own constellations of who we feel is part of our family. We create our own lines of kinship because we've been excluded from macro- and micro- institutions that others deny membership to us.


I have no idea where I am going with my post tonight, but I do know that for me, Marriage is not a contractual issue to take lightly. On the surface, it appears that there are worthwhile social benefits. But marriage comes with a price index that scares me.


When I think of marriage, I think in terms of what price will I pay to avail myself of the many so-called benefits of marriage and over time, will the price index still reflect the same values held at today's standards and if those standards change over time, then will the 'price index' of Marriage be worth the price one once percieved a marriage to be?

As the years go by, I am not quite sure that marriage is all that one contrives it to be. I don't even know if I find marriage all that alluring as it once was to me, when I was younger and possessed less life experience than the set of life experiences I possess today.


As time goes by, I would count myself extremely lucky to have a relationship of minds with the person I feel closest to that lasted longer than prior relationships I have had - marital or not. I would feel extremely blessed if I had a relatonship that weathered lifes hardships and joys and endured over a significant period of time for much longer than those in my past. I'm not there yet by any means, but I know that participating in a marital relationship, as it is currently defined by today's standards, is less likely to happen for me before my time on earth is over.

[Martina]

there is no slippery slope. That idea associates -- as is stated -- lgtbtq and poly marriage with statutory rape and incest. If someone is under age, she or he can not and should not marry.

the slippery slope argument is offensive in the extreme and made largely by christian fundamentalists claiming that if gay marriage is permitted, child abuse, incest, and even bestiality will ensue.

Do not give that argument legitimacy.

[Kent]

Well i think anyone should have the right....but if your in jail your in jail.Your freedom has been taken away....till your out!

you cant go on vacation,you cant drive a car....you are incarcerated.

You cant go to a church or facility to be married.

Hazards of going to prison/or jail.

When you have done the time...then you can excercise that right...and get married where every you want and also pay for it!

Firegal,

My post did not reference anything about being in jail. Jail did not play into my question and/or answer.

However, I do agree with you.

thanks,

Kent

[pajama]

I would like to see something that allows anyone, of a consenting age, to marry as many people as they want, of any gender, identity, nationality, religion, color, etc.

ALONG WITH an ammendment to BAN divorce, with the exception of extreme cruelty or abuse. And cheating isn't extreme cruelty. You go to therapy, you work it out. If you love them enough to want to marry them, then you love them enough and forever to make it work! (Hence why I personally will not get married again. It's FOREVER.)

My $.02.

A

[firegal]

Firegal,

My post did not reference anything about being in jail. Jail did not play into my question and/or answer.

However, I do agree with you.

thanks,

Kent

I just used your quote to show an exception to the word "everyone", wasn't nessasarily disagreeing with the "everyone" has the right concept...

Just voicing my exception to it. Sometimes folks get quoted to continue the conversation and branch off of what was stated. That's what I was doing...

Thanks for your words

[Kent]

I just used your quote to show an exception to the word "everyone", wasn't nessasarily disagreeing with the "everyone" has the right concept...

Just voicing my exception to it. Sometimes folks get quoted to continue the conversation and branch off of what was stated. That's what I was doing...

Thanks for your words

You're very welcome, firegal.

[Beloved]

I'm not against polygamy between consenting adults but I think if it were to become legal there would be issues to be ironed out with social security. The benefits would need to be arranged between many people rather than just two. It's more complex than just 2 people getting married. It's not impossible to work something out...but it requires a lot of consideration.

[Corkey]

I think every human has the right to marry. I have some reservations around poly marriage, but those have to do with property rights and estate management for children. However, even poly folks should have the right to marry. I just think the right to marriage is a human right, not necessarily just for the procreation of children.

[blush]

I would like to see something that allows anyone, of a consenting age, to marry as many people as they want, of any gender, identity, nationality, religion, color, etc.

ALONG WITH an ammendment to BAN divorce, with the exception of extreme cruelty or abuse. And cheating isn't extreme cruelty. You go to therapy, you work it out. If you love them enough to want to marry them, then you love them enough and forever to make it work! (Hence why I personally will not get married again. It's FOREVER.)

My $.02.

A

Um, not for me. This is too black and white. Cheating can be extreme cruelty, and asking people to suck it up and stick it out comes with its own complications. It creates a situation where two potentially angry people are stuck with each other forever. More than marriage, people have a right to persue their happiness. Sometimes what they thought was their happiness changes. They shouldn't be sentenced to a lifetime of misery.

Having said that, I strongly feel marriage is a heartfelt, sincere commitment for a lifetime. I just don't like morality baggage that gets slung around if divorce is an option.

[Ciaran]

The issue of who should have the right to marry is an incredibly complex one.

I think that all, or almost all, of us on this site would support equal marriage rights for LGBT people as or hetrosexuals. However, our views on who should have the actual right to marry no doubt vary significantly depending on our cultural, political, societal and religious views.

For example, at what age should someone be allowed to marry? If a minor, should he / she be allowed to marry with parental consent? I'm not a parent and never will be but cannot believe that I would give my consent to a child of 16 or 17 to marry. Similarly, whilst it is legal, should society regulate to stop a person of 18 marrying someone of 88?

Also, how do we deal with persons who may be mentally incapacitated in some way but, equally, as deserving of love and a committed relationship as others?

Added to the above, there is the cultural overlay. For example, in many South Asian societies, the right to marry is held but not the right to choose your spouse. This would be more important than the right to marry for me as I can just imagine who my parents would set me up with !!

Also, of course, the added complexities of those already married and wanting to marry again, whether their current marriage remains in law or not. Certainly, as a Roman Catholic, leaving aside the whole LGBT obstacle, I would have to jump through significant hurdles to get married a second time in the event of divorce. Similarly, until relatively recently, many societies expected widows not to remarry in the event of their husband's death.

Apologies for my ramble .... just the initial thoughts that came into my head upon reading the opening post.

[Tuff Stuff]

Forced marriages are not cool,like underage girls/boys being forced to marry full ass grown men/women aganist their will.Abusers who end up marrying their victims,yuck!...and prison imates,you gave up any rights when you commited a horrible crime.
Marrying your blood relations sounds creepy also.

That's my opinion,of course.

My :readrules: *snort*

[MsTinkerbelly]

A lot of people fought for a very long time to legalize same-sex marriage, and I hope people will continue to fight for marriages that are polyamourous as well.

Throughout history marriages have been among any number of consenting adults, and it is only recently that the idea of a monogamous marriage has become the norm.

[Shystonefem]

Who am I to judge? I STRONGLY believe in "Live and let live".

I do, however, believe that the human brain should be close to completely developed when making decisions like that. 18+ only please.

I have no right to force my beliefs on anyone else. So, to every person OF LEGAL AGE that wants to get married to another human being...... Rock on

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't see the moral problem with marrying your cousin, or hell, even a sibling or half sibling (many siblings don't grow up together) - father/daughter, uncle/niece or cross generational intra family marraige? No. I can see way too many potentialproblems with consent with that.

You don't have to have kids to have a marraige. If marraige is not about children, then I don't see the issue. I may think brother-brother might be creepy, but that's my *moral* feelings of mild repugnance and nothing to do with their right to love each other. My morals don't belong in their marraige.

Adult = 18. If you can vote, you can get married. Full stop. If you aren't old enough to vote, you have no biz getting married.

Group marriages are fine too. As long as it's not to young underage girls in religious cults.

Consenting and adult.

[JDeere]

A lot of people fought for a very long time to legalize same-sex marriage, and I hope people will continue to fight for marriages that are polyamourous as well.

Throughout history marriages have been among any number of consenting adults, and it is only recently that the idea of a monogamous marriage has become the norm.


I will ditto on this post! :praying:

[Corkey]

There are biological reasons for not marrying ones cousin, Uncle, Aunt... I mean if one is fine with birth defects boink away, but don't ask me to pay for the offspring that actually make it to the world. Consent or not.

[imperfect_cupcake]

You don't have to have kids to marry though.

[Corkey]

No one doesn't, but oft kids are the result of marriages.I don't want to pay for some peoples brain defects that are entirely preventable, that is why one is not allowed to marry ones blood relatives.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Would you have any issue with gay blood relatives marrying?

[Corkey]

Yes, insest is still a thing.

[JDeere]

Isn't incest also illegal?

Anyways marrying a cousin or someone in your blood line, in my opinion is nasty.

I think some people need to truly think hard about being married, because a marriage is something to work at, not something you do and when things get tough take the easy road aka divorce.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Then your objection isn't about children, its a person al moral stance. Which is totally fine. I just prefer people would be upfront about being morally repulsed by something.

Marrying your first cousin is not illegal. Thats relates by blood. Some people think that's incest. But its legal.

I don't think my personal morals should belong in anyone's bed or love relationship so long as there is very clear consent between two adults. Even two people related by blood. No matter how *I* feel about it morally.

And that's just something I personally believe. My morals have nothing to do with other peoples happiness. I have moral objections to plenty of things. But I don't think my personal morals should interfere with other peoples rights and freedoms. Thats where I differ from religion.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Then your objection isn't about children, its a person al moral stance. Which is totally fine. I just prefer people would be upfront about being morally repulsed by something.

Marrying your first cousin is not illegal. Thats relates by blood. Some people think that's incest. But its legal.

I don't think my personal morals should belong in anyone's bed or love relationship so long as there is very clear consent between two adults. Even two people related by blood. No matter how *I* feel about it morally.

And that's just something I personally believe. My morals have nothing to do with other peoples happiness. I have moral objections to plenty of things. But I don't think my personal morals should interfere with other peoples rights and freedoms. Thats where I differ from religion.

That's where you differ from a great many people's religion, but not from mine.

The greatest of all gifts is love, and if you know not love, then you have nothing. I'm paraphrasing here, but it's pretty close to the quote from the Bible.

Until you posted your thoughts on relationships of a more familial nature, I like most people thought...."hmmm that is incest and it's wrong". But, if you believe the Bible ( and a lot of people don't I know), we all came from 2 people which makes all of our relationships incestuous.

You always make me think:rrose:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Absolutely fair enough Tinkerbelly! I am not saying the thought does make me uncomfortable. It certainly does. But I always think: homosexuality was illegal. And wrong. And it makes people uncomfortable. If we are talking about two people from the same generation, who are adults and adopt kids or get outside sperm. Then what is actually the objection? Logically, I mean. Just my feeling of discomfort? Why is that enough to ban people who love each other from being together? My moral discomfort. Just like other people's moral discomfort with being gay and having an adult relationship of fully cognizant consent? People feel moral repugnance for my relationships. Does that make it ok to make it illegal?

Legality should not be based on morality. It shpd be based on impact of harm. Two half brothers who weren't raised together meet for the first time when they are 25. They fall in love. Who are they hurting? No one. Let them get married if they want.

[Corkey]

Actually marrying your first cousin is illegal in the states, due to blood relative. If two people are from different bloodlines then by all mean they have the right to be married. If two children are from different marriages then they can actually be married.

[JDeere]

Actually marrying your first cousin is illegal in the states, due to blood relative. If two people are from different bloodlines then by all mean they have the right to be married. If two children are from different marriages then they can actually be married.

It is illegal here in Texas and in Oklahoma!

But thank you for this!

[MsTinkerbelly]

Actually marrying your first cousin is illegal in the states, due to blood relative. If two people are from different bloodlines then by all mean they have the right to be married. If two children are from different marriages then they can actually be married.

It is legal in California; actually 25 states prohibit, 20 states (including D.C.) allow first cousins, and I think North Carolina does not allow a "double cousin", whatever that means. There are also a few that only allow under certain circumstances.

[*Anya*]

Marriages Between First Cousins

Twenty-five states prohibit marriages between first cousins. Six states allow first cousin marriage under certain circumstances, and North Carolina allows first cousin marriage but prohibits double-cousin marriage.

First cousin marriage is allowed in these states under the following circumstances:

Arizona- if both are 65 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
Illinois- if both are 50 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
Indiana- if both are at least 65.
Maine- if couple obtains a physician's certificate of genetic counseling.
Utah- if both are 65 or older, or if both are 55 or older and one is unable to reproduce.
Wisconsin- if the woman is 55 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
*
North Carolina- First cousin marriage is legal. Double cousin marriage is prohibited.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-laws-regarding-marriages-between-first-cousi.aspx