Policing Gender

[Martina]

What do you do when this sort of thing happens to you? When someone makes a comment, teasing, helpful, or just mean telling you that your gender presentation isn't what it SHOULD be, yadda yadda?

Do you ever casually police a friend or acquaintance's gender? How do you know if it's OK if you do?

I saw this interesting blog entry by a cisgender man who had to deal with some policing by a transman. I thought it was interesting to see a cisgender person getting policed by a non-cis person. You feel bad for both of them, the guy getting teased in a way that makes him feel yucky and the guy teasing who doesn't realize he's not being one of the guys but coming off as an asshole.

Anyway, it made me realize (again) that teasing about gender presentation can be pretty tricky. Helpful comments are worse, I think. I have a gay male friend with an anxiety disorder, an older guy, who would step over that line. He immediately went into Auntie mode to make it seem OK. It wasn't. But I knew that it was his age, in part. And in part his anxiety. He couldn't NOT comment sometimes. It was almost like he was afraid for me.

I kind of feel like this guy does. I tend to organize my life so that the people I am around are cool, don't push my buttons, so when I encounter it, it's a shock and hits harder.


Complex Masculinity Policing -- Tuesday, August 21, 2012 (http://feministallies.blogspot.com/2012/08/complex-masculinity-policing.html)
I've been aware of the not-so-suble policing of masculinity for quite a while now--from adolescence on, men (and women) are taught to police men's masculinity in myriad ways. This sort of policing of masculinity includes anything from being ridiculued for one's haircut by bullies (I'm looking at you, Mitt Romney) to the looks and questions I get about my pink bike. Some of this policing is really overtly violent, either verbally or physically, or both, but much of it is more subtle. A glance, a snicker, folks staring when you don't match up with what they think masculinity should look like. And men are taught to police themselves in this regard almost constantly.

So it was kind of fascinating when I found myself having my masculinity policed in what was a fairly subtle, interesting way the other day. I was having dinner with my partner and some of her friends. Most of us at the table were cisgendered (look it up if you don't know what it means), but as is the case in my social circles recently, not everyone was cisgendered. An acquaintance of mine who is a transguy was there, and he was in a goofy mood; I found myself on the receiving end of some teasing by him--he was teasing me because my sideburns were mismatched. He, of course, had immaculate facial hair, including cute, well-matched sideburns. Little did he know that this version of policing masculinity was/is a button for me, and I wasn't able to play along and take it in the humorous way that I'm pretty sure he intended it. Of course, as with a lot of the more subtle forms of policing masculinity, "jokes" are often a way to make cruel statements socially acceptable, so the grey areas around such comments can be treacherous.

One of the reasons it really got to me, I think, was that I don't tend to hang out with guys who joke in this way--or, at least, I don't hang out with acquaintances who joke in this way. Close friends can tease me like this and it doesn't seem to affect me much, because they know me, know my complex relationship(s) to masculinity, and are often joking "ironically" with me in a way that actually makes me feel accepted. Acquaintances who make jokes about masculinity in this way just don't tend to stay acquaintances with me for long--the spaces I hang out in simply aren't full of men who police masculinity in this way. So when I ran into it, it hit me hard. On the one hand, I have a sort of flip emotional response to it, which can be summed up by something like, "Hey, man, you'll get bored with facial hair after 25 years, too." The same part of me that feels this flip response also wants to say, "Hey, way to go. You can now be recognized as having joined the ranks of men-who-police-other-men's-masculinity!" But I'm also just fascinated by the fact that, clearly, policing masculinity as a man is learned behavior--it's not something that we have to do, it's not something we do because it's "innate"; rather, it's something that we learn to do as we grow into men, just as my acquaintance has learned to do as he has grown into a man.

[TheMerryFairy]

What do you do when this sort of thing happens to you? When someone makes a comment, teasing, helpful, or just mean telling you that your gender presentation isn't what it SHOULD be, yadda yadda?

Do you ever casually police a friend or acquaintance's gender? How do you know if it's OK if you do?

I saw this interesting blog entry by a cisgender man who had to deal with some policing by a transman. I thought it was interesting to see a cisgender person getting policed by a non-cis person. You feel bad for both of them, the guy getting teased in a way that makes him feel yucky and the guy teasing who doesn't realize he's not being one of the guys but coming off as an asshole.

Anyway, it made me realize (again) that teasing about gender presentation can be pretty tricky. Helpful comments are worse, I think. I have a gay male friend with an anxiety disorder, an older guy, who would step over that line. He immediately went into Auntie mode to make it seem OK. It wasn't. But I knew that it was his age, in part. And in part his anxiety. He couldn't NOT comment sometimes. It was almost like he was afraid for me.

I kind of feel like this guy does. I tend to organize my life so that the people I am around are cool, don't push my buttons, so when I encounter it, it's a shock and hits harder.


Complex Masculinity Policing -- Tuesday, August 21, 2012 (http://feministallies.blogspot.com/2012/08/complex-masculinity-policing.html)



I too am far to familiar with gender policing. I wish people could just accept others and themseves for who they are.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I personally would not police anyone's gender, BUT people sure do like to fucking police mine.... I figure it's their insecurities and sense of perceived failure in something or the other that makes those people want to apply/impose certain markers or gender stereotypes.

[Nadeest]

Getting policed is definitely not a lot of fun, to say the least.

[aishah]

i don't think i police other people's gender...i probably have made thoughtless, fucked up comments in the past and just not realized it. but i do intentionally try to not have preconceptions about people based on their clothing, looks, etc., mainly because i know how much it sucks when people do it to me.

i have been gender policed pretty frequently in my life - mainly for not being femme enough. my ex always said that i was not feminine enough, didn't wear enough heels, makeup, dresses, etc. in queer spaces i've definitely gotten the vibe that i'm not femme enough from interactions with many people. and occasionally also that i am not queer enough. the most interesting experiences of gender policing for me have been intersectional - for example, when i am policed for not presenting like a good muslim woman. often this policing comes from non-muslim friends who don't understand that muslim women dress/act all kinds of different ways and that just because i don't dress one way doesn't mean that i am not muslim. when i did used to cover my hair, i experienced some policing within the muslim community (towards me and also seeing it towards other people) about clothing choices and styles and not being pious enough in our gender presentation.

[Okiebug61]

I kind of feel like this guy does. I tend to organize my life so that the people I am around are cool, don't push my buttons, so when I encounter it, it's a shock and hits harder.


Complex Masculinity Policing -- Tuesday, August 21, 2012 (http://feministallies.blogspot.com/2012/08/complex-masculinity-policing.html)

I have always set on the edge of the cliff and invited people into my life that made me ask about myself. I don't enjoy a large comfort zone. I thrive on the rush of re-inventing myself on a as need basis. I could live out of a suitcase wondering where my next meal was coming from and have a big smile on my face. That's why I am in sales. I am in control of my income, I get to decide what I am willing to take on a day to day basis.

Policing gender is something I have no desire or need to worry about. If I police anything it's what kind of heart and soul do you have.

[Nadeest]

I have found that, for me, at least, my friends did some policing of me, especially during the early stages of transition. For me, if my friends did it, it was one thing, and often welcome, so that I could get things right. When strangers did it, though, it was very uncomfortable, to say the least.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Gender Identity In Halakhic Discourse

http://www.yuobserver.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/RosietheTefillinWearer.jpg

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/gender-identity-in-halakhic-discourse

[imperfect_cupcake]

Not with my friends. We take the living piss out of each other because that's the kind of humour we have and enjoy it. We also know none of us mean it even slightly. I am utterly against slut shaming but I often call my friends things like "where did the big slag go?" When lost in thought etc. I don't personally think that is slut shaming because we are all very proud and protective of our sexuality and very confident of its healthiness. We get the joke which is both a compliment and sarcastic (not meaning the words but the tone - nasty words, warm playful tone)

So if there has been any teasing, which I cannot think of off the top of my head, it's likely in the same manner. We call each other princess, slag, biggo slut, slut face, fairy dust, mc cunty, titsy, blow job queen/king, bitch, etc etc etc. I think the only ones that pertain to gender is princess and little lord Fauntleroy. We call each other those things if we think the other is being a bit too anal about something.

It's hard for people who don't have that kind of humour to understand we aren't policing each other in sex, homophobia, or mental health. We all have had very hard, rough lives. We are also deeply supportive of each other, live alternative lives that most people don't "get" and have to either constantly educate or walk away.

But I have been policed about my presentation for real outside my friends and it feels horrible rather than a warm and embrassing playful insult meant to compliment.
The "why can't you" statement from new partners, usually.
Why can't you just not shave your legs before we go out?? You are wearing jeans anyway.
Why can't you just go the way you are?
Why can't you just grab something and throw it on, no one cares?
Why can't you wear something more toned down when we go out. I am really sick of dealing with assholes.
Why can't you ....
- look less feminine and sexual because I'm uncomfortable with it even though I found it really attractive in the beginning but now that I'm actually aware of how much harassment you get on a daily basis I don't feel comfortable and I want you to change how you dress so I no longer have to feel bad about it or feel like I have to protect you. Also, how .ong it takes you to get ready gets on my nerves and I want you to wear "normal" (jeans and a tshirt) clothes so I don't have to wait. Cause my impatience is more important than your gender expression. Cause you aren't genderqueer so it doesn't matter.

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

>:(

So yeah, that's gender policing and I go from happy to beyond WTF angry in under two seconds. And because I'm a big meany, I don't accept back paddling. Only discussion and understanding, not avoidance.

I run into difficult with people around my confrontative nature who have anxiety. Their passive back paddling enrages me even more because I feel they aren't owning or even discussing what I'm pointing out, just trying to appease. And nothing makes me more irritated than disingenuous appeasement. Or appeasement just for appeasement's sake. It's just throwing gas on whatever I'm upset about and trying to discuss. I find it overwhelmingly triggering.

So unfortuantely, I can't hang out with people who do that.

So gender policing, for me, usually comes from dates. I have heard "under all that girly you are actually a bigger Butch than I am!" But I *know* those people who have said it don't actually believe in gender stereotyping, even remotely and I can tease back that right stuff I don't remotely believe.
But that's not gender policing. I don't feel icky or boxed in or pushed.

[Daisy Chain]

imperfect_cupcake

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

What a brilliant point, I had never given this thought but how very true and articulately put.

DC

[DapperButch]

imperfect_cupcake

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

What a brilliant point, I had never given this thought but how very true and articulately put.

DC

I agree with Daisy. Great point, imperfect cc!

[MsTinkerbelly]

I was told one time that i wasn't a femme because the butch i was dating at the time didn't pak.:readfineprint:

It was on another site, but it was a member of the LGBTQ community; sometimes i think we are worse to each other, than straight people are to us.

Martina asked how we respond...i didn't, maybe i should have...but what do you say to ignorance? I know who i am, and I'm good with it.

[MsTinkerbelly]

You know i was thinking....

I am quilty of thinking in terms I'm not proud of sometimes...maybe Gender conditioning?

We have a friend who started off life as "bob" (not real names) and came out to us as "barb" a year ago. She was dressed in what is more commonly " male" dress recently...dark work shirt, dark jeans, construction type steel toe boats, no make-up and hair pulled back in a ponytail. I found myself cringing, wondering if she realized how male she was presenting...but wtf, that is her business, and no matter what she wears who am i to judge? She was as female as she wanted to be, and her dress doesn't define her...

Lots to think about Martina, thank you!

[JDeere]

I was told one time that i wasn't a femme because the butch i was dating at the time didn't pak.:readfineprint:

It was on another site, but it was a member of the LGBTQ community; sometimes i think we are worse to each other, than straight people are to us.

Martina asked how we respond...i didn't, maybe i should have...but what do you say to ignorance? I know who i am, and I'm good with it.

I have gotten told I am not MAN enough because I am Pre-everything right now.
I don't get the whole arguing within the LGTBQI community!

Why police gender when it is not even anyone else's business, except maybe the partner you are and with and yourself!

[Daisy Chain]

You know i was thinking....

I am quilty of thinking in terms I'm not proud of sometimes...maybe Gender conditioning?

We have a friend who started off life as "bob" (not real names) and came out to us as "barb" a year ago. She was dressed in what is more commonly " male" dress recently...dark work shirt, dark jeans, construction type steel toe boats, no make-up and hair pulled back in a ponytail. I found myself cringing, wondering if she realized how male she was presenting...but wtf, that is her business, and no matter what she wears who am i to judge? She was as female as she wanted to be, and her dress doesn't define her...

Lots to think about Martina, thank you!

I have to confess that I may of had that reaction as well.....heres a thought, I wonder if she was exploring her butch side ?

DC

[Daisy Chain]

I have gotten told I am not MAN enough because I am Pre-everything right now.
I don't get the whole arguing within the LGTBQI community!

Why police gender when it is not even anyone else's business, except maybe the partner you are and with and yourself!

I`ve known more than a few BIO`s that were `post` everything and still not, nor ever would be, close to being `man` enough on many levels....

where as I`ve known female ID`d butches who had pretty much everything covered ! :drool:

I dont get the arguing either.

DC

[DapperButch]

I have to confess that I may of had that reaction as well.....heres a thought, I wonder if she was exploring her butch side ?

DC

Exactly. Gender expression is different from gender identity. There are trans women who are butch.

[JDeere]

I`ve known more than a few BIO`s that were `post` everything and still not, nor ever would be, close to being `man` enough on many levels....

where as I`ve known female ID`d butches who had pretty much everything covered ! :drool:

I dont get the arguing either.

DC

Yeah the arguing is BS if you ask me!

Another thing is the term MAN UP, sounds like gender policing to me! But maybe it's just me, I don't know. I have so much to learn yet!

[Daisy Chain]

Yeah the arguing is BS if you ask me!

Another thing is the term MAN UP, sounds like gender policing to me! But maybe it's just me, I don't know. I have so much to learn yet!

Yep. `man up`...a contradiction in terms surely !

I too have much to learn and enjoy learning ! When you get to a point when you think you have nothing else to learn you are screwed !

DC

[imperfect_cupcake]

Yeah the arguing is BS if you ask me!

Another thing is the term MAN UP, sounds like gender policing to me! But maybe it's just me, I don't know. I have so much to learn yet!


I think it depends on intent. There is an extremely camp drag King night here in vancouver called "Man Up!" And it's used as a camp-ish slang to doing a form of dragking "Im manning up when I do the MC for the band" it means presenting a caricature personality ... Like outrageous drag King personas.

It's not an insult, it's a camp play on words for humour towards a loved past time.

But it totally can be a shitty, gender policing term and is more often used that way.

Also "Don't be a pussy" to all genders, referring to female genitalia. When vaginas are some of the toughest parts of the body - it can take stuff that no other part can.

[flapdoodle]

if all this is "policing" this form of ongoing nagging "you're not good enough" terrible criticism, then my Mother was a Police Commissioner ......
but, who gives a shit?

If I had a dollar for every time someone "fell in love with me just the way I was" only then to spend countless days trying to change me to no avail, in essence is the same thing.

police all you want then as i walk away talk about me all you want, who cares, certainly, not I.....

Yes, it's hurtful, painful ...but who are they? friends? get rid of them, it's that simple.

Surround yourself with acceptance rather than spending time figuring out why people do what they do....

I have similar issues with being a Jew, it used to make me see red, peoples ignorance.

just "be"

[flapdoodle]

I have said this to many, jokingly, and they knew it, and it's been said to me, that's fine. I have been called "dude" by my own butch wife, that's fine too.

When you know who and what you are, what you feel like inside, how you choose to project your inner to your outer in every way, just do it....

One day when in a bar with J and our friends, the shots of booze were flying. J will drink 2-3 beers but isn't a shot drinker. Bartender went to pour J a shot and j said "no" Bartender replied "Oh, man up"

Oh no he didn't just say THAT to my butch wife, did he?
..as the steam starting coming from my ears and blood from my eyes, I knew I was about to combust...... I had that feeling of anger with the ignorance.

I waited a bit until calmer, we said goodbye to our friends and left, never saying a word to Bartender.

I am glad I didn't, it would have showed him he annoyed me .....and i knew he would enjoy knowing that.

[Daisy Chain]

I have said this to many, jokingly, and they knew it, and it's been said to me, that's fine. I have been called "dude" by my own butch wife, that's fine too.

When you know who and what you are, what you feel like inside, how you choose to project your inner to your outer in every way, just do it....

One day when in a bar with J and our friends, the shots of booze were flying. J will drink 2-3 beers but isn't a shot drinker. Bartender went to pour J a shot and j said "no" Bartender replied "Oh, man up"

Oh no he didn't just say THAT to my butch wife, did he?
..as the steam starting coming from my ears and blood from my eyes, I knew I was about to combust...... I had that feeling of anger with the ignorance.

I waited a bit until calmer, we said goodbye to our friends and left, never saying a word to Bartender.

I am glad I didn't, it would have showed him he annoyed me .....and i knew he would enjoy knowing that.


You did well to control yourself. I struggle at times when someone pushes the right button {I dont have many now I`m older and more mellow}. My kneejerk reaction would of been to snap and ask if its men who never know when they`ve had enough to drink then. Hardly PC in itself !

DC

[JDeere]

Yep. `man up`...a contradiction in terms surely !

I too have much to learn and enjoy learning ! When you get to a point when you think you have nothing else to learn you are screwed !

DC

Yes we learn everyday! But major contradiction!



I think it depends on intent. There is an extremely camp drag King night here in vancouver called "Man Up!" And it's used as a camp-ish slang to doing a form of dragking "Im manning up when I do the MC for the band" it means presenting a caricature personality ... Like outrageous drag King personas.

It's not an insult, it's a camp play on words for humour towards a loved past time.

But it totally can be a shitty, gender policing term and is more often used that way.

Also "Don't be a pussy" to all genders, referring to female genitalia. When vaginas are some of the toughest parts of the body - it can take stuff that no other part can.

The intent was malicious in nature. So the totally shitty gender policing term comes to mind LOL