Butch visibility

[Ascot]

As I start to write this I'm wondering if it might become something of a companion piece to the threads about femme invisibility. Of late I've been thinking a lot about this topic and to be frank, I've no idea where this post will wander as I drag it through my outfield. No doubt it will pick up bits here and there as it goes.

It it my hope that other butches will offer their experiences. I'd like to see what commonalities we share, how we vary and maybe shed some light on what it's truly like living in butch skin. I also invite femmes to participate. By all means, please feel free to share anything that comes to mind.

There is no mistaking that I am butch. Pretty much anyone who looks at me can see that. I could march down Main St. in a prom gown and tiara (don't hold your breath) and still read butch. While it might not immediately register that I am gay to some, that I am clearly far to the masculine side of the female spectrum is undeniable. Every day, many times a day, I out myself simply by existing. There are instances when my visibility is a good thing. That cute girl who flirts with me every time she sells me a baguette, the clearly present camaraderie with the butch who works at the recycled building supply place, the chuckle I get every time the check gets put down in front of me when I'm out with a more feminine woman, the straight guy who mows my lawn and refers to me as "dude"; in those circumstances it's really nice to have such open, comfortable acknowledgement, free of negativity, judgement and backlash. Then there are the other times. The guy at the locally owned hardware store who seems to tighten up every time he sees me, who waits on me because he has to but who cannot ever seem to completely suppress his derision. I can almost hear it bouncing around in his head like a ball bearing in an empty can, " fuckin' dyke...". The look of surprise upon meeting a new client with whom I've only spoken on the phone prior to that face to face moment. The boyfriend/husband/male friend who protectively takes the hand of his female companion if I happen to dare to smile in her direction, regardless of her response to me. The guys who look at me askance when I'm at the barbershop, wondering why a woman has invaded their man place. Sometimes I almost pity people for their reactions. Other times I want to lash out, say something like "What the hell are you looking at, fucktard?" I don't, though. I've come to a point in my life of finally, truly understanding the merits of picking one's battles. Were I so inclined, I could expend copious energy railing against any number of perceived slights, but really, it would be little more than shouting into the void. It wouldn't change anything and it would only serve to drain me. It also won't change the fact that I am butch, that I will never melt into the straight world in a way that would make some of the crap disappear. So, I shoulder it. Every time I leave my house. Every time I get out of my car. Every time I open my mouth. I shoulder it and I embrace it. I also revel in it because my being butch has brought into my life some of the most amazing women, both butches and femmes; people I might likely have not had the joy and privilege of meeting and coming to know and count as friends and lovers.

Yeah, it's really hard sometimes. Other times it outright rocks. Please...tell me won't you...what is it like for you?

[Ascot]

I'm thinking I might have to nudge this a time or two to keep it up there. Here's hoping I don't begin to feel like Sisyphus.

[Breathless]

i think this is a great post, and excellent topic. Majority of my closest friends are butch. I see their struggles, and feel the pain that they try to shoulder, and brush off as not important, or... The comment came from a small mind, therefore I'm not going to give it any credence.

But those words and comments hurt. And more than that they stick, and they haunt and traumatize in some cases. It comes from all areas, even in our own community having a distorted view of what 'to be butch' looks like. Frankly it pisses me off, if only for how it hurts the people I care about. Genetic features that they have no control over.. People saying things like, we'll you look femme, for having long hair, and how some (generally speaking) can't possibly comprehend that sometimes butches wear make up or suits for their position in their career, and it being some betrayal to their butchness?

I'm a strong believer, that if we want people to accept and embrace us for who we are, it starts from within. If you are butch, and you want to know what a real butch looks like? Look in the mirror :)

[Ascot]

Thank you Breathless, both for you compliment and your input. You're so right in several ways. The manner in which some of my brethren become so psychically beaten down breaks my heart. To fear possible scorn and isolation on a daily basis simply because you are being true to yourself can be irreparably corrosive. I am incredibly fortunate to be surrounded by people who accept me just the way I am. Perhaps that is due in large part to me being quite comfortable in my own skin, I don't know. No doubt some of it comes from that attitude you mentioned, of not caring and considering the source when someone tries to smack me down for being who I am.

I didn't go into the whole "you don't look butch" aspect in my initial post only because it could probably be a thread unto itself. Still, I hope it will be discussed here, too. I'd love for us to delve into appearance, mannerisms, mentalities...all of it. That is the beauty of butchness, the infinite variety.

[Bard]

It took me a while to be comfortable in my skin and be the butch I am and proud of it I to get the looks and even on our vacation I got security called on me because I used the ladies room hell I have been using the damn ladies room all my life. IDK I am happy to just be me to get my hair cut where I want and how I want to have a partner who loves and respects me just as I am to be respected and valued at work. Even when someone refers to me as sir or by a male pronoun the officers I work with get very protective when that happens but it is all good with me. I think it is because now I am happy to be butch and damn proud of it but it was a long winding journey to find me

[Sweet Bliss]

Thanks for starting the thread Ascot. I of course, am on the outside looking in, I have my own battles with being "seen" as Femme. So although I have not walked a mile in your shoes, I do have a little idea of what you and other Butches live with daily.

In this neighbor hood I'm living in now the folks know I'm one of "those gals", and at this age most folks don't care much because the thought of 'old people' having sex is gross, ask any teenager.

I usually read "Straight" or "Grandmother". In some areas it's safer to be read in those terms. Sad but true.

But of course the only time I get read as Femme right out of the gate is here.:rrose:

[Nadeest]

A while back, I had a butch friend in my life, who, while at work, did not appear to be butch at all. After working hours, however, her clothing changed entirely, and there was no doubt whatsoever that she was butch. I never thought anything less of her, for that. She was just doing what she felt that she had to do, for her career field, and I supported her in that.

[Ascot]

I appreciate your sharing that, Nadeest. Did your friend ever speak to what that experience was like for her? Did it bother her or was it more a Clark Kent/Superman sort of thing? I understand that it's something she felt she had to do, but that doesn't mean either that it was easy or that it sat well with her. Is she in education? I hope it was something she was able to do without feeling as though she was having to live some weird double life. That would suck. Epically.

[Ascot]

It took me a while to be comfortable in my skin and be the butch I am and proud of it I to get the looks and even on our vacation I got security called on me because I used the ladies room hell I have been using the damn ladies room all my life. IDK I am happy to just be me to get my hair cut where I want and how I want to have a partner who loves and respects me just as I am to be respected and valued at work. Even when someone refers to me as sir or by a male pronoun the officers I work with get very protective when that happens but it is all good with me. I think it is because now I am happy to be butch and damn proud of it but it was a long winding journey to find me

I'm glad you feel the way you do, Bard. I think it's much easier to go through life when you can accept, embrace and celebrate who you are.

I hear many butches talk about their journey, whether to a place of recognition, acknowledgement, for some it might even be resignation. I'm not cognizant of a journey of my own, per se, I think because I've known for so very long, I mean pretty much from the time I was a really little kid, that I am both butch and queer. I don't think that I ever experienced a growing into it because I was never not in it. Does that make sense? I do know, though, that the paths for many have been and still are not unlike mine fields hidden beneath thickets of blackberry vines. The way can be arduous and painful and dangerous. Life threateningly so, even.

[thedivahrrrself]

I think this may be why so many femmes (including myself) get so defensive of the butch folks in our lives.

I went to the fair last year with my butch friend. We decided to use the restroom. Me, his sister (who is kind of androgynous), and his niece waited in line for the bathrooms, but he walked across the fair to the portapotties. I asked his sister why, and she said it's because he has encountered problems in the bathroom several times before. I immediately got mad. I would stick a heel in someone's head for giving my friend shit! And if the person being attacked was my lover, I would probably even ruin a pair of Louboutins!!

But I'm a fighter. I've been out in Oklahoma since I was a teen, and I don't care much about what people I don't know think of me. I know some people aren't wired that way, and I know some people are tired of having to fight.

I see the things you're talking about. I see men look like they are ready to fist fight when a butch woman walks into their store. What can we femmes do? Every instinct I have says to hold tight to your hand and ask that fucker what he's staring at! In the bathrooms, I've noticed that just the act of me saying "no, she's in the right place" will generally keep things from escalating.

So a good question for you who feel the sting of ultra-visibility, is there anything your gf's or femme friends can do to show their support in these situations?




Maybe this is just a case of the grass being greener, but I think I'd prefer the perks of visibility. There really aren't any perks to invisibility as I see it.

[Inked_Trinity]

I hit a point in my life where I said "FUCK IT! It's not my problem if they can not accept who I am", I stopped worrying about it that day. Everything about me shouts BUTCH! From my full arm tribal tattoo to the boxing I do for sport. I walk around oblivious to the looks people give me because I simply don't care. I am who I am, nothing is going to change it. I have been butch from birth. It is my natural state of being. Somebody somewhere is always going to judge me, be my guest! I don't need their approval to be me. It's that simple for me.

[Nadeest]

She was just starting a new career field, at that time, and it was important that she dress well. We didn't talk about it much, to be honest.

[Dude]

piece of fucking cake , until I gotta pee

I came out once in my life at 18 , The end.

I feel so lucky to be obvious and can not even imagine what
femme's have to go through to be out as queer. At every new
job? With every new friendship? It sounds exhausting, I hate shit like that.
I had to be brave only that one fucking time and I'm old now.

So , thank you to the femme's who go out there in the world and say queer
looks like this too , ovah and ovah again (f)

[Bard]

when we are out Desd always goes with me to public bathrooms at a casino I have had little old ladies run in fear.. a couple of times with my daughter people have said I was in the wrong bathroom and my Goose got pissed and stamped her little foot as loudly said " this is my Mama" my oh so protective girls

[SoSousMe]

I am very hard to miss in a social situation, until people see My chest, I have not had top surgery yet, so sometimes that's the only clue given off that I am not bio male. And it's saved My butt more than once in public restrooms. It's extremely difficult to travel this earth and not be stared at, talked about, looked at with disdain.

I have been threatened, chased, and damn near accosted in a bathroom by a group of women at a wedding in Atlanta. I was chased out of a small town by a small group of teenage boys, the only reason I did not stand My ground, as was My usual reaction, was because I had My 6 year old son with Me. The clerk at the counter and I made eye contact as she picked up the phone to call the local police, she seemed more scared than I. My son was terrified. I had done nothing more than stand in line with My boy waiting to pay for a pizza.

I have been in more bar brawls than I care to admit, due to rowdy college boys believing I was unaware that I was "some kinda fuckin dyke". I never backed down, until that day with My son. Here in My hometown, I was the first out "lesbian", and over the years, this town has become quite the little queer friendly place to live. But back then it was not nearly as accepting. It is when I go out of town where I run into trouble now.

My wifey does not understand why I am always watching the crowd, why, if I see a group of "questionable" men approaching us, I may take My hand from hers. She says it's My being ashamed, I cannot make her understand, it's self preservation at times. I am 47 years old now, and I am not nearly as quick to jump into a fight with a 20 frat boy as I used to be.

You can be damn sure, no matter where we are, I am constantly scanning the crowd, waiting for a fist to fly. This is Texas, in most towns, it's still frowned upon, and trust Me, I've been kicked enough times, punched enough times, and chased enough times to know when to run. And I won't put My girl through that, if she's still innocent to the thought of anti-gay, homophobic hate filled attacks, I will do what I can to keep it that way.

[Ascot]

I think this may be why so many femmes (including myself) get so defensive of the butch folks in our lives.

I went to the fair last year with my butch friend. We decided to use the restroom. Me, his sister (who is kind of androgynous), and his niece waited in line for the bathrooms, but he walked across the fair to the portapotties. I asked his sister why, and she said it's because he has encountered problems in the bathroom several times before. I immediately got mad. I would stick a heel in someone's head for giving my friend shit! And if the person being attacked was my lover, I would probably even ruin a pair of Louboutins!!

But I'm a fighter. I've been out in Oklahoma since I was a teen, and I don't care much about what people I don't know think of me. I know some people aren't wired that way, and I know some people are tired of having to fight.

I see the things you're talking about. I see men look like they are ready to fist fight when a butch woman walks into their store. What can we femmes do? Every instinct I have says to hold tight to your hand and ask that fucker what he's staring at! In the bathrooms, I've noticed that just the act of me saying "no, she's in the right place" will generally keep things from escalating.

So a good question for you who feel the sting of ultra-visibility, is there anything your gf's or femme friends can do to show their support in these situations?




Maybe this is just a case of the grass being greener, but I think I'd prefer the perks of visibility. There really aren't any perks to invisibility as I see it.

You pose great questions. My first inclination is to say that probably the best thing to be done is to simply act as though nothing out of the ordinary is occurring, because when it comes down to it, nothing is. As an aside, on behalf of the butch nation, I want to issue the most sincere and deeply felt gratitude to every fierce femme who has ever taken umbrage when they perceive a butch has been mistreated. To every brave woman who has taken a stand in defense of someone wronged because somehow they don't quite fit someone else's idea of acceptable, normal, safe or decent, you have my utmost respect. Regarding what's to be done, I suppose it comes down to the specifics of the situation, the offense and the parties involved, doesn't it? Mostly, just be there for us. Allow us our reactions, concerns and vulnerabilities. If you want to punch someone in the neck, I'll hold your purse and have your back. (No, of course I'm not actually advocating violence) Just be with us. You might be amazed at how much of a balm just your existence and love is. For that, many of us would willingly walk through hell. Many of us do.

The visibility vs. invisibility thing...I really don't know what to say about that. Both have their pros and cons, don't they.

[Ascot]

I am very hard to miss in a social situation, until people see My chest, I have not had top surgery yet, so sometimes that's the only clue given off that I am not bio male. And it's saved My butt more than once in public restrooms. It's extremely difficult to travel this earth and not be stared at, talked about, looked at with disdain.

I have been threatened, chased, and damn near accosted in a bathroom by a group of women at a wedding in Atlanta. I was chased out of a small town by a small group of teenage boys, the only reason I did not stand My ground, as was My usual reaction, was because I had My 6 year old son with Me. The clerk at the counter and I made eye contact as she picked up the phone to call the local police, she seemed more scared than I. My son was terrified. I had done nothing more than stand in line with My boy waiting to pay for a pizza.

I have been in more bar brawls than I care to admit, due to rowdy college boys believing I was unaware that I was "some kinda fuckin dyke". I never backed down, until that day with My son. Here in My hometown, I was the first out "lesbian", and over the years, this town has become quite the little queer friendly place to live. But back then it was not nearly as accepting. It is when I go out of town where I run into trouble now.

My wifey does not understand why I am always watching the crowd, why, if I see a group of "questionable" men approaching us, I may take My hand from hers. She says it's My being ashamed, I cannot make her understand, it's self preservation at times. I am 47 years old now, and I am not nearly as quick to jump into a fight with a 20 frat boy as I used to be.

You can be damn sure, no matter where we are, I am constantly scanning the crowd, waiting for a fist to fly. This is Texas, in most towns, it's still frowned upon, and trust Me, I've been kicked enough times, punched enough times, and chased enough times to know when to run. And I won't put My girl through that, if she's still innocent to the thought of anti-gay, homophobic hate filled attacks, I will do what I can to keep it that way.

This is the kind of story that tears at my soul. It is just astounding to me to what lengths people are driven by fear and ignorance. When I read something like this I realize how fortunate I've been. I've not once been faced with actual violence for being a butch dyke. Maybe I've always lived in places that are more progressive or open? Who knows. I also don't keep a constant vigilance and perhaps I've had close calls without ever being aware of it. I am not a big fan of PDAs but that's mostly because I find them tacky, and it has little to do with what others would think about it. Having said that, I will hold my girl's hand and not think twice about it, regardless of where we are or who's around. If the spirit moves me, I'll probably kiss her, too. I suppose part of my feelings about public displays have to do with me not wanting to share her with others in that manner. It boggles my mind, what some people find threatening.

[CherylNYC]

I think this may be why so many femmes (including myself) get so defensive of the butch folks in our lives. ...



I'm very quick to defend the butch women in my life, and butches in general. Last night I was told by someone who should know better that she can't "get women who act just like guys."

Deep breath.

I told her that it's more likely that guys act like butches. The butch women I know have innate, natural masculinity that bubbles up through them like an Arkansas hot spring. Straight guys are constantly posturing and trying to figure out how to not get called 'faggot', so their masculinity is often forced and performative. While I've witnessed butches sometimes aping the the worst aspects of straight male culture, the butch women in my life are just behaving naturally. I often think that men would do well to model their behaviours on butch women.

[Ascot]

I'm very quick to defend the butch women in my life, and butches in general. Last night I was told by someone who should know better that she can't "get women who act just like guys."

Deep breath.

I told her that it's more likely that guys act like butches. The butch women I know have innate, natural masculinity that bubbles up through them like an Arkansas hot spring. Straight guys are constantly posturing and trying to figure out how to not get called 'faggot', so their masculinity is often forced and performative. While I've witnessed butches sometimes aping the the worst aspects of straight male culture, the butch women in my life are just behaving naturally. I often think that men would do well to model their behaviours on butch women.

This is exquisite. Thank you.

That "women who act just like guys" sentiment...damn that rankles me. Come to think of it, I fucking hate it. It's often cheek and jowl with "If you're going to be with a woman who looks like a man, why not just be with a man?" Sometimes in the face of such ignorance, even I, who usually never shuts up, am speechless. I love, love what you said, " that men would do well to model their behaviours on butch women."

Imagine such a world.

[femm_cb]

I am very hard to miss in a social situation, until people see My chest, I have not had top surgery yet, so sometimes that's the only clue given off that I am not bio male. And it's saved My butt more than once in public restrooms. It's extremely difficult to travel this earth and not be stared at, talked about, looked at with disdain.

I have been threatened, chased, and damn near accosted in a bathroom by a group of women at a wedding in Atlanta. I was chased out of a small town by a small group of teenage boys, the only reason I did not stand My ground, as was My usual reaction, was because I had My 6 year old son with Me. The clerk at the counter and I made eye contact as she picked up the phone to call the local police, she seemed more scared than I. My son was terrified. I had done nothing more than stand in line with My boy waiting to pay for a pizza.

I have been in more bar brawls than I care to admit, due to rowdy college boys believing I was unaware that I was "some kinda fuckin dyke". I never backed down, until that day with My son. Here in My hometown, I was the first out "lesbian", and over the years, this town has become quite the little queer friendly place to live. But back then it was not nearly as accepting. It is when I go out of town where I run into trouble now.

My wifey does not understand why I am always watching the crowd, why, if I see a group of "questionable" men approaching us, I may take My hand from hers. She says it's My being ashamed, I cannot make her understand, it's self preservation at times. I am 47 years old now, and I am not nearly as quick to jump into a fight with a 20 frat boy as I used to be.

You can be damn sure, no matter where we are, I am constantly scanning the crowd, waiting for a fist to fly. This is Texas, in most towns, it's still frowned upon, and trust Me, I've been kicked enough times, punched enough times, and chased enough times to know when to run. And I won't put My girl through that, if she's still innocent to the thought of anti-gay, homophobic hate filled attacks, I will do what I can to keep it that way.

My wife (who is butch) is the same way. Certain crowds, she will not hold my hand at all. A few of our straight couple friends don't truly get it when we decline to go to the local straight bars. She's been hit a few times and oh she is a scrapper too. I don't take it personal. I understand.

I am more quick with my tongue when it comes to her. We were at a cascino food court line when the couple behind us asked if my wife was a guy? I put my arm around my wife, turned around and said "She's more a man then your husband is" Said wife wasn't too happy. They quickly left the foodcourt line. HA! My wife just shook her head at me.

[BullDog]

Despite all the homophobia and misogyny one can encounter as a butch, I am very happy to be seen as a dyke. Unfortunately, it is based on stereotypes- because femmes and less masculine appearing lesbians or others who don't fit the "stereotype" are just as lesbian/gay/queer as I am. I do not fall under the "male gaze," I do not have to repeatedly come out, my "queerness" is not suspect- all things that femmes have to deal with. For the most part I am treated fine. The problem is homophobia can spring up at any time, but I just deal as needed- mostly by not responding to it. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wouldn't trade being a Butch for anything.

[Ascot]

My wife (who is butch) is the same way. Certain crowds, she will not hold my hand at all. A few of our straight couple friends don't truly get it when we decline to go to the local straight bars. She's been hit a few times and oh she is a scrapper too. I don't take it personal. I understand.

I am more quick with my tongue when it comes to her. We were at a cascino food court line when the couple behind us asked if my wife was a guy? I put my arm around my wife, turned around and said "She's more a man then your husband is" Said wife wasn't too happy. They quickly left the foodcourt line. HA! My wife just shook her head at me.

I get it. It can be a tough call sometimes, the should we/shouldn't we thing. My approach is to be who I am, wherever I am, and if that means wanting to hold my girlfriend's hand then that's what I'm going to do. I am not responsible for others' reactions, but I am prepared to deal with them should they be inappropriate. I think that I've finally learned that I don't have to be so antagonistic. I confess I used to be quite invested in being a fire brand but eventually realized that that behavior, while it might have been fun in the moment, ultimately didn't serve me or anyone else well. It's really easy for me to go to that place, to make a crack, get defensive. I can do that in my sleep. I take it as indicative of my own growth that that is rarely my first inclination anymore. And, if it is, I'm pretty much able to override it at least to the extent that it doesn't manifest outwardly. These days I actually endeavor to engage people in civil exchanges in such a way that might help them realize, in spite of the overt differences, we also have some similarities. Common ground, whatever it is, "Oh, hey, look, we're at the same concert" or, "Yeah, wow, I know! Can you believe someone would actually be brave enough to paint their house that color?" is a great unifier. It's pretty cool when someone comes around. I feel triumphant, maybe even a little tingly. We part, potential animosity possibly dispelled or at least diluted, perhaps each a bit better for the experience. I'm sure to some this will sound like so much fairy tale bullshit. Blah, blah, Ascot, easy for you to say. You know what? It's not easy to say. That shit takes effort. It requires wise choices be made. Yes, it sucks that we have to make them but it is all part of this life we're in.

[Ascot]

Despite all the homophobia and misogyny one can encounter as a butch, I am very happy to be seen as a dyke. Unfortunately, it is based on stereotypes- because femmes and less masculine appearing lesbians or others who don't fit the "stereotype" are just as lesbian/gay/queer as I am. I do not fall under the "male gaze," I do not have to repeatedly come out, my "queerness" is not suspect- all things that femmes have to deal with. For the most part I am treated fine. The problem is homophobia can spring up at any time, but I just deal as needed- mostly by not responding to it. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wouldn't trade being a Butch for anything.

Amen. I wouldn't trade it either. To be butch, to be the counterpart to the breathtaking panoply of gloriousness that is everything femme...no, I wouldn't trade it for anything at all.

Damn, now I'm thinking about all the things I so love about femmes, every kind of femme, each unique unto herself. I could go on for days and never feel as though I'd expressed enough appreciation, fondness, affection and admiration. The lust thing, that would definitely take eons, too.

Vive la difference!

[BullDog]

Yes, I agree Ascot. I am happy to be who I am and much better equipped to face the type of challenges butches face than the one femmes do, but every femme I have ever known is comfortable in her own skin and very happy to be femme. So vive la difference.

[chris1life]

Some times while walking around this "good ole boy" state is a test to my sanity ha. I go to the men's department to shop And some times ignored by staff or asked if they can help me find my husband something. Here I am standing there with my men's dress pants shirt and tie. I usually in my deep voice tell them as politely as I can "I am the the damn husband" I don't really call myself that in my world but it seems that's all these back woods Bible thumpers understand. (No I have no problem with religion unless its used the way it is here) I suppose Maybe its the shoulder length blonde hair. Last night my wife and I went out to eat and it was one of the packing nights for me so the swagger and the butch vibes were pulsing ha. And while we are sitting at the bar waiting for our table we actually had men come over to her and try to flirt. All while she is holding my hand in her lap. I wanted to beat on my chest and start kicking some ass. Point is when people aren't acting like if I get close I may give them my butch germs they are trying to pretend I'm not here. Like if they don't make eye contact I'll go away. I do have a wonderful wife the leaned over and gave me a nice long kiss that left no doubts about what I was to her. Sorry for the rant. With the butch population being almost nonexistent in my town it feels good to say what's on my mind.

[Ascot]

Some times while walking around this "good ole boy" state is a test to my sanity ha. I go to the men's department to shop And some times ignored by staff or asked if they can help me find my husband something. Here I am standing there with my men's dress pants shirt and tie. I usually in my deep voice tell them as politely as I can "I am the the damn husband" I don't really call myself that in my world but it seems that's all these back woods Bible thumpers understand. (No I have no problem with religion unless its used the way it is here) I suppose Maybe its the shoulder length blonde hair. Last night my wife and I went out to eat and it was one of the packing nights for me so the swagger and the butch vibes were pulsing ha. And while we are sitting at the bar waiting for our table we actually had men come over to her and try to flirt. All while she is holding my hand in her lap. I wanted to beat on my chest and start kicking some ass. Point is when people aren't acting like if I get close I may give them my butch germs they are trying to pretend I'm not here. Like if they don't make eye contact I'll go away. I do have a wonderful wife the leaned over and gave me a nice long kiss that left no doubts about what I was to her. Sorry for the rant. With the butch population being almost nonexistent in my town it feels good to say what's on my mind.

No apology necessary. I'm glad you feel you can speak your mind here. Welcome to the Planet.

[NerdieGirl]

I, thus far, have only dated butch or FTM folks. I always worry about safety when it comes to my partners, especially in the bathroom. One of my ex's had so many bad experiences that she refused to use a public bathroom. My heart broke over this. Something I easily take for granted was something that caused paralyzing fear in her. I would offer to go with her, but even then she still struggled. I often complain about being an "invisible femme", but often forget to count the times that I have hidden behind that invisiblilty.

[Femminator]

Chris1.....so sorry that happened to you. I hate it when men just ignore my Butch and hit on me or denigrate her by ignoring her. I always let them know that I choose to be with her, and that yes indeed I am a lesbian, thanks but no thanks. For some undeard of reason, they seem to think their 'junk' is the magic potion to turn Femmes into staight girls....

My Butch had something of the same happen to her recently. We were waiting in line to check out for groceries, and she had had her arm around me, obviously we were a couple. She took the cart to the end of the belt and waited for me to check out. This guy walked up right next to me and got all in my space, and did this really denigrating whole body sweep. Starting at my breasts(of course) and working his way down. I didn't catch it at first, my mind was on groceries, was but my Butch had gone all red in the face and that caused me to look at this creep. He leered at me, so I just stared at him. I stared him right in the eyes, and waited for him to look away. Finally he did. I then went over to my Butch and said 'come on Babe let's get home" and looked back over my shoulder to shoot him a nasty look. He finally looked embarassed.

Most men are larger than women, so I carry Pepper Spray. I know without a doubt that she would step in to protect me, but I don't want to take the chance that someone would hurt her, so better well armed.......

[psykftm]

With butch visibility/invisibility, I experience both.

One time at work for 7-11, guy comes in addressing me as sir. It felt great to know I look masculine enough to fool dudes. I do have to wear a binder sometimes though if that's what I'm going for. Anyway, he wants to switch out propane tanks. What typically happens if they realize I'm a female is they will pick it up and carry it out for me to exchange it. Which bothers me. This guy didn't notice though, and left it at the door for me to pick up/carry and switch out. It felt freakin awesome. I know there would be social frowning upon a man that left a female to carry something "heavy"...just sucks for me to live in that kind of world. I can handle my damn self.

Then I have bad days too. If I let my hair get too long, and I don't wear a motorcycle helmet when I'm out on my bike, my hair gets super puffy...awful lol. I recently had someone tell me I don't look masculine at all, they didn't know I was a butch, alla that shit.

A month ago before this site I proly would have ran out and got a haircut right away...made it another two weeks though haha. Been learning a bit on here, getting better with being confident enough of myself to not let crap like that bother me

[Toughy]

This looks like the best place for this:

Brittney Griner To Be First Openly Gay Athlete To Sign With Nike–And She’ll Be Modeling Men’s Apparel

http://madamenoire.com/280296/brittney-griner-to-be-first-openly-gay-athlete-to-sign-with-nike-and-shell-be-modeling-mens-apparel/

Go Nike!

[Ascot]

Thanks for posting that link, Toughy. I think this is a great place for it.

[Toughy]

I don't know how you write Nike.......

We all know Nike will come under HUGE fire for this. They need to hear support for their decision.

[BstlMyhart]

I am butch, no doubt about it in any way, shape, or form. Yes I get the occasional double take look or odd glance when I go to the "women's" restroom. Usually I just give a wink and that pretty much ends it.
One of my great nephews called me "uncle" for the longest time when he was little...no one in the family batted an eye.
On one occasion years ago, I was walking out of a convenient store and there where a group of "punks" hanging around a car. I hear, "What up faggot". Ignored it...then heard it again. I turn around to find the driver, who worked in my restaurant at the time for maybe a month before I fired him, was the one who said it. I looked him straight in the eye and said, "Neil, let me get you a dictionary, it's DYKE not FAGGOT, I'm FEMALE." Well he froze, his buddies quit laughing, and they all left.
My co-workers get more angry than I do when the derogatory names get tossed at me. I have to calm them down so as not to get themselves into trouble.
I get names called at me, death stares, etc...at work and when I'm out and about. I don't let them affect me...because if I do i'm merely validating them. Those people aren't in my life and so what they say carry no weight and not worth getting worked up over.
I am comfortable in my own skin. I love and am proud of myself for getting through all that I have. I appreciate it when someone comes to my defense. And those who do know I can take care of myself anyway. I don't hide any portion of who I am from every aspect down to my very core. I am butch. People who REALLY know me know I am just Gen.

[Dude]

Public relationships
One Bowerman Drive
Beaverton , Or. 97005


Nice! Good for her!

[Dude]

Public relationships
One Bowerman Drive
Beaverton , Or. 97005


Nice! Good for her!

Allow me to translate
Posting from fn phone


Nike World Headquarters
Public Relations
One Bowerman Drive
Beaverton , Or.
97005

[EnderD_503]

This looks like the best place for this:

Brittney Griner To Be First Openly Gay Athlete To Sign With Nike–And She’ll Be Modeling Men’s Apparel

http://madamenoire.com/280296/brittney-griner-to-be-first-openly-gay-athlete-to-sign-with-nike-and-shell-be-modeling-mens-apparel/

Go Nike!

That's awesome, thanks for sharing! It's funny cause I was just walking down the street the other day and saw a billboard with models for men's clothes and did a bit of a double take. The models they used at first glance made me think they were possibly either butch or transguys, but then figured "nah, big clothing company like that would never do it." But did think how cool it would be to have butch and/or trans models. It's not so much that I'm into clothes/brands/modeling but I just think it would be cool as hell to for once be able to look at someone with a similar identity/body as me modeling a shirt I'd like to wear or something.

[Toughy]

I was in downtown SF......it's Pride Month......rainbow flags everywhere and the City is starting to buzz......lots o lots o people will be here soon.

They have 6' tall billboards on the streets that are triangles. I was standing on a corner and looked over and saw this on one of them:

Butches, Bears and Furries
will love
Mini Coopers

of course there were pics of minis on the ad.....it was slick and glossy

swear to the Goddess........I love living here.

[Ascot]

I'm happy to see this thread getting a bump. Thanks, folks!

[Rockinonahigh]

I couldn't find the righ place to put this so please excuse me if this dosen't reason for the tread.
O.k hear it is.I leave for Vegas for a pool tournament with my ladies 8 ball team on the 14th of this month we have been a team for three years so know each other pretty well.We planed on all pileing up into two ajoining rooms...all eight of us.Most of them have no problem being in some stage of undress in the rooms,normaly this wouldn't be aproblem if I were straight but i'm not..not by a long shot.When we were being fitted for our team uniforms it was like a rolling strip joint at the tailors haveing shirts/pants altered to fit.I had to have my pants hemed as well as my shirt fitted a bit better so it wouldn't sag like a over large bag..I cant help if I have broad shoulders from lifting weights plus my arms are fairly bulked up with ment I had to get a shirt a sise larger to make it work.Well when I droped down to my skivies and binder they just staired,one had the guts to say ..you don;t wear girly undies?No says I,I go for what I feel good about wearing,besides I don't need to explane what wear.Most I doubt will have a problem but I really think a couple will.Other than getting my own room wich I can't afford this may or may not be slightly uncomfortable issue..Me,i'm not locker room shy but no matter how lebarated they may be..well they may really not be.Any ideas or recomendations will be greatly appresheated.Or I may well be just an old worry wart,dealing with straights can be difficult at times.

[LexiLove]

I am shaking with anger after reading some of these posts. I cannot understand how people can treat others like some of you have been treated. I am about to possiblly be very corny or ovely mushy but butches are ahhhhmazing. The ones I know are strong, intelligent, charming, chivalrous and yet are also soft, romantic, loving people. The perfect blend of everything good in the world. I tell my girlfriend that she should write a book to men teaching them how to be good, solid people. Obviously, I don't mean ALL men but the many I have known were useless humans. I am VERY protective of my butch but am also very protective of my butch friends and my FTM friend. I love butches, each and every one of you.

[Bino85]

This is such a great topic. I have been a very visible Butch for over a decade. Its something I have had to grow into. I have always been very confident and comfortable with the way I look. It's just me. I get called Sir or young man all the time. It always makes me smile, i never correct anyone. I think of it like a compliment they dont know they are giving. Even my father introduces me to people as his other son.
Reading through there posts I really feel for some. I been very lucky in my part of the world. People seem pretty accepting. Although i feel ya'll on the bathroom front. My first time getting called out in the bathroom I was 18. It was a little girl (maybe 4). She asked her mom why there was a boy in the bathroom. After that my path was so clear. I get looks and comments all the time in public bathrooms. I think its funny, I just smile say hi and go about my business. When Im at the bar I always take a buddy. Drunk women get very defencive, but I would rather deal with drunk women then drunk dudes. Lucky for me all the bounced i have met that came to kick me out of the bathrooms always know right away what is going on. I have yet to be thrown out of a bar.
I am very comfortable with who i am and how i look. I feel like I rock the look. I know Im lucky have had so much positive support in my life. Props to all who rise to the top though the struggle.

Oh, someone was talking about scanning crowds for trouble makers. I do the same thing! Im sure I always will.

[mountainbikedyke]

Great thread!

I've never really had many negative issues while moving through life as a masculine woman... I'm comfortable with who I am and confident in all aspects of my life, and have been extremely lucky to have such a supportive family.

I have also had two careers where being masculine in appearance and dominant in personality has been to my advantage, and I know I'm lucky in this respect as well. Being sturdily built has also benefitted me. ;)

It's appalling to me that my butch comrades have endured such treatment at the hands of ignorant fuckers! Knowing myself, I probably wouldn't have handled someone getting physical with me in as civilized a manner as those who have posted above.

Sadly, I have to say the most discrimination I've witnessed as a butch has been within the lesbian community. Butches, because of our outward appearance, got the shit kicked out of us in the past (Some still do, clearly.) and really paved the way for our community, only to now be seen as some sort of sub-culture.

[Paradox]

Great Thread.

I haven't had any dangerous issues with visibility and perhaps here in Canada there is more tolerance (not perfect by no means). I have heard of the rude, derogatory comments some of my friends received because of their appearance. There's a price to pay - the public scrutiny, community ridicule. It's like going through high school all over again. I always been thick skinned, but there are times that it is annoying can be hurtful.

I've experienced the 'what are you?' look on the faces of people I would meet for the first time who can not figure out if I am male or female. I don't scream dyke 24/7 but for many I look like a lesbian/butch. I received the double take in regard to the public washrooms on occasion, but again luckily nothing that would involve any confrontation.

Growing up tomboy, wearing my dads sweaters whenever I can, and preferring tees and slacks/jeans over skirt and dress is more natural for me.

I don't necessarily go out of may way to 'be' butch or non-femme. I have a naturally stronger masculine features. And it can be beneficial at times as I am not easily harassed. But at the same time there are the assumptions of what a butch should wear or how they should behave. However, there some nice, intelligent folks, as one friend who was smart enough to know that even though I look butch, (especially stereotypical idea that butch must = tough and rough), he understood due my height and size the odds of me moving around rolls of flooring by myself that was practically as tall as I am and weighting almost 500lbs ea is unlikely and got me the help I needed. He did not place misconceived assumptions about me because of a label, but used some practical sense.

Public displays of affection is not my cup of tea, and I am even more cautious when I am with a date or when I was in a relationship simply because people can be stupid and do stupid things. Much rather prevent an incident from happening as I don't handle stupid very well. :angry:

[Soon]

Thoughts On Being A Butch (http://groupthink.jezebel.com/thoughts-on-being-a-butch-1548596426)

(by intheweeds on GroupThink/Jezebel)


"The game is basically surviving as a being a butch woman"

I recently came across this documentary called 'The Butch Mystique' from 2003. It's a wonderful film in which 9 Black butch lesbians speak about their experiences, thoughts and feelings. I urge you to watch it. If you are a butch, you will feel like I did - relieved and excited to hear others voicing your experiences. You will feel less alone for a few minutes. If you are straight or queer, but not butch, you will certainly learn something about the butch experience. The perspective of Black butches is also something we can all stand to hear from. Being misread as a male is an issue all butches have, but in part 2, we hear what it's like to be misread as a Black male.


(Videos of documentary: The Butch Mystique from 2003)

Watching this made me think about my own experiences, both with straight people and other lgbt people who do not share my experiences. Here are a few of them.

Am I trans? No. I have decided that some time ago. Butch women are women. I am a woman. Certainly though, my gender presentation is an integral part of my identity. I am read as male in most places. Even in the queer community, I feel a pressure to identify as trans at times. It's easier for people to understand, I think. Even myself. For some time when I was younger I played with it. I wore a packy, I bound my breasts (I really hate my breasts existence, even still I'm not comfortable with them), I took on a male name. Maybe I was a supposed to be a straight man? While I knew I would never be a feminine woman, I never felt quite right giving up my female identity completely. Eventually I realized that I could be both a woman and very masculine. Listening to the difference between the older and younger women in the documentary was interesting to me. I felt my identity as butch kind of disappearing recently. It was interesting to me to hear a younger woman talking about 'butch' as a title being for the older generation. It's clear that the name may not be used as often, but maybe butch isn't going away.

It's clear to me though, that sexual identity and gender identity are related in many people. Butch lesbians are a good example of this. While the gender and sexuality spectrums are not the same, they overlap in some people. As far as my experience, straight butch women are not really a thing. I have met many straight women who don't buy into the performance of gender, many who are more masculine than most, but I have never met anyone who I would consider a 'straight butch' (I reserve the right to change my mind if I ever meet one). I have never met a straight woman who is butch like I am and like I recognize in this film. This is clearly a lesbian phenomenon as far as I can see. It cannot simply be that butches are just very close to trans men on the gender spectrum, just not quite there. That cannot be so, since we know that trans men come in all sexuality, but butch as I am and as is portrayed in this film, it seems, is a lesbian specific identity. It seems to me that butch is a lesbian identity which is inherently also on the trans spectrum somewhere.

Because of this, it is entirely possible to be homophobic by being transphobic. I feel my lesbian identity being assaulted when I hear an assault against a trans person. After all, I basically look like a non-passing trans man every day. In fact, often I can and do pass as a man. Frankly, it's safer to pass than not. Any trans person will tell you that and it is the same for me. So if I can get away with it by lowering my voice or not speaking much, sometimes I will. I had an entire 20 minute lowered-voice conversation with a cab driver once on my way to my mom's and had him tell me my mother should be proud of such a 'great son' at the end of it. I have no way of knowing whether he would have thought the same if he knew I was a woman but I didn't feel like finding out that day.

Another thought I had while watching this was that I, like some of these women, feel like I am in a small minority. It's not often that I find myself in a room with another butch. Queer people are everywhere, but those that share my unique experiences are far between for me, it seems. It was so refreshing to hear. The bathroom issues, the faked and forced femininity for family, the violence. The violence from men. The pain and hurt it causes that we don't acknowledge enough. The pain in this woman's face when she was speaking about men's reactions to her was so apparent and familiar to me. It crushed me because I recognized it as my truth as well.


Butches are subject to hatred and violence from men because we don't perform for them. Seriously. That is how much men expect women to please them. If you refuse too much, some will literally fight you. We stand in the furthest spot from pleasing them that they can think of - we are almost men. My experience has been one of three reactions from men. The first is the best and the one we all want to achieve: a normal dude with no hangups treats me like a normal person. The other two are not as positive. Either they hate me or they want to be my best friend because I am one of the guys, but as a woman, I can help them with other women or other such bullshit. While it's nice to be joked around with and treated well, I am well aware of the differences between how they treat me and how they treat other women. They don't see me as a real woman and that plays into so many lesbian stereotypes I can't even.

On the subject of stereotypes, I am aware that I embody them. So many lesbian stereotypes are basically about the freaky, ugly wanna-be-men butches. Lesbians all look like men, lesbians love power tools, lesbians all cut their hair short, lesbians are ugly (read: lesbians do not perform femininity for men - this is a big problem for them). I have heard from certain members of the lgbt community that "if i didn't insist on looking like such a dyke, I would experience less oppression". That is pretty close to a direct quote from one example, but I have heard this sentiment from many people both straight and lgbt.

The fact that I am the 'freak' the straight people latched onto to deride and mock lesbians means that I am bad for the cause to some people. I tend to rage pretty strongly against this line of thinking whenever I hear it winding up, but the reason I rage so hard is that this thought is already a part of my internal dialogue! I rage when I hear this because do you think I don't fucking know that? Of course if I looked and acted more like the 'ideal' straight white person that I would experience fewer problems. I don;t know if many butches talk about this, but the pressure to be anything but me is so strong. It seems so easy to just grow out your hair, wear clothes from the women's department, but it's not. I play with trying out women's things sometimes, maybe I should try and wear eyeliner? I could try that. Maybe I would look a tiny bit more like a woman and people would believe I was a woman? It wouldn't be much and I would still be me right? That eyeliner is gathering dust in my medicine cabinet right now. I'm just not cut out to be feminine.

I can't change. Even if I tried. Even if I wanted to.

[Soon]

Photographer Meg Allen Explores 'Butch Imagery' With New Project (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/butch-photography-project_n_5226538.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices)

Oakland-based photographer Meg Allen embarked on a photography project last spring to explore how the idea of a "butch" woman has changed over time.

Allen joined HuffPost Live's Marc Lamont Hill on Friday to talk about what exactly she was trying to understand with her work.

"I really wanted to show the variety of butch women that were in my community," Allen said. "There had been a lot of social media and Instagram and all these things, and I felt like there was this lapse in butch imagery, so I really wanted to kind of bring that back to the limelight.”

The discourse around butch women has certainly changed over time. Some feel there has been a shift in how younger generations evaluate sexual identity. Allen said the term "butch" includes many more types of people than it did before:

"There has been a lot of terms changing over the last 10 years. A lot of people use 'masculine of center,' or they’ll use 'boi' [spelled] b-o-i, or 'stud.' And I think traditionally the word was generally more of a white term for more masculine women, and so I just wanted to explore if that term is still relevant and what it looked like. It was more an exploration into what does that word mean, what does it look like now, and I that found it meant a variety of things, which is why I’ve taken so many different types of portraits of different types of butch women."
Below are examples of some of Allen's work from her "Butch" project:

[TruTexan]

Bumping because it's worth reading again!

PS. I don't care what people say or think about how I dress, or appear to them. It's my life and I don't have any regrets nor do I have any give a fucks about walking into a woman's restroom and being stared at for it. I just walk in, head held high, go into the stall, do my business, then wash my hands and dry them and leave..PERIOD.
I can wear a dress and heels and still look butch no doubt, there's no mistaking me for a femme at all.

Have a great day being butch or femme or however you ID. :)

[Ascot]

I went to church today for the first time in decades. I was invited by a friend whose fiancé was singing in the choir, and since it was Unitarian service I figured the likelihood of my bursting into flames was fairly slim. If I may say so, I wore a pretty great tie. It felt good to get spiffed up and be comfortable enough in my own skin to have fun with it. There's been a lot of talk lately about man spreading;guys sitting with their legs fairly wide apart, taking up more than their necessary share of space. I confess that I was probably a bit guilty of doing the butch version of that today.😏

[Ascot]

In the last couple of weeks I've been told by three people that they had no idea I was gay. I don't even know what I think about that. Evidently I've been walking around with the erroneous assumption that I read like a big ol' homo to everybody. To be clear, two are passing acquaintances, and the other was a complete stranger. The last one, the stranger, actually I guess it was four people total because there were two women together that I've lumped into the stranger category. I met them when I was geocaching on Saturday, an older gal and a woman I'm thinking was her mother. I told them a little bit about what I was doing, and they seemed to find the whole idea very appealing. They even helped me look for the cache. A couple minutes into the conversation I said, "By the way, I'm Lise." The younger of the two women told me her name, and then gestured to the older woman and said,"And she's Gay." I'm sure you can see where this is going. I just couldn't help myself. I say,"Hey, me too!" Nothing. It seemed pretty clear that even though I declared it, these women just didn't see it. I think it didn't even remotely occur to them. I do realize that it could be a generational thing. Or, I suppose it is possible that they got it, and so didn't care that they didn't even react. Hmm...

I'm usually recognized by other queer folks, and that is a lovely thing. I think my investment in wanting to be seen as gay by nonqueer people has to do with putting out the message that we are everywhere and that's cool. I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

[Cin]

I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

I don't even know what it would be like for people not to "know". I'm not sure what exactly they do know though. I look, talk, walk and act in ways that are identifiable to most people as masculine so when the world looks at me, especially just in passing, they see male. I don't actively choose it; it just is. Of course there is enough woman in there to make a longer look or an interaction a tad confusing. Some people do a double take of sorts. Many correct themselves and use female qualifiers. Do they know? I imagine they do. But I'm not sure exactly what they believe they know. It's seems to be more about how I look than who I love.

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

[Ascot]

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

I think you make an excellent point. I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

[DapperButch]

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

Spot on. It has been interesting to me that when this has come up in conversation with cisgender, heterosexual women (friends), they are always surprised to hear me say this. I have to go through it with them for a bit before they say, "oh, yeah....you're right" with a light bulb going on for them.

[Cin]

I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

It is certainly true that in a patriarchy masculinity is revered hence well guarded, especially along the borders where slippage can occur. Toward that end, gender in general is heavily policed in order to ensure a presentation that fits within society's definition of male and female. There appears to be more flexibility within female to explore gender as long as the exploration remains confined to acceptable areas and the explorer looks feminine. Certainly in fashion we see this.

I am inclined to believe this has more to do with the hatred of the feminine and the adoration of the masculine than any purposeful willingness to overlook masculinity in a female package. The tendency to punish male homosexuality, hell the separation of homosexual behavior into male and female supports this theory. In certain areas of the world female homosexuality isn't even recognized so their is no law against it. This has nothing to do with a love or a reverence for things female. It is misogyny at its most complex and bizarre.

This would explain why femininity in a man is not tolerated to any degree whereas woman are not required to adhere to such a complicated set of rules. The illusion is that women have more freedom to express themselves within their gender than men. The reality is that masculinity is actively and relentlessly guarded and defended. So a female gender presentation is not as restricted simply because it is not so valued. As children, girls have more leeway to drift slightly from the adult version of their gender than boys. This may be understood by examining the expectations of men and women in a patriarchy. It is tolerated if a girl and then a woman is willful and headstrong (seen as masculine traits) because she will be brought to heel by a man. Hopefully she will then come to understand her place, metaphorically speaking, as barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. How can a man be expected to fulfill his duty as the master of his universe if he is allowed to indulge in behaviors traditionally seen as feminine? This model is of course not adhered to by all people, it is however the ideal on which a patriarchy is built and the fallout of centuries of this kind of belief system is deeply ingrained in our psyche. We are fed this with our pablum as infants and dutifully even cheerfully feed it to our own offspring. It is probably the thing I can think of that comes as close as I can imagine to the idea of original sin. We must unlearn this shit if we expect anything to change.

I'm not sure that the hatred for feminine masculinity is deeper and more vicious than the hatred for masculine femininity. It is certainly true that society is able to joke about feminine masculinity. We can witness this in the plethora of media depictions featuring the stereo type of the amusing queen with the heart of gold. The bull dyke hasn't found her way into the hearts of television or movie goers in quite the same way. I think society does not find masculine femininity very funny at all. Whatever that means...

But I don't think it's easy for anyone who cannot pass as clearly one gender or the other. Not that passing as a different gender is an easy road. It's just a different hard road is all.

[Soon]

Meet ‘Big Boo’: OITNB’s Lea DeLaria on Her Backstory, That Strap-On Scene, and Living Out Loud (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/19/meet-big-boo-oitnb-s-lea-delaria-on-her-backstory-that-strap-on-scene-and-living-out-loud.html?via=desktop&source=facebook)

[*Anya*]

Meet ‘Big Boo’: OITNB’s Lea DeLaria on Her Backstory, That Strap-On Scene, and Living Out Loud (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/19/meet-big-boo-oitnb-s-lea-delaria-on-her-backstory-that-strap-on-scene-and-living-out-loud.html?via=desktop&source=facebook)

Thanks for posting this. I have enjoyed seeing her more fully realized as a butch lesbian this season.

[MasterfulButch]

I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

[MysticOceansFL]

I've been called Syr a lot but I've never expierenced negative stuff at least not worth mentioning.

[DapperButch]

I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

I haven't had this happen while with a partner in a very long while. I mean looks and stuff, but not heckling.

Anytime I have read a story about a butch being heckled when with their femme, the femme is quick to burst out in anger and protection. I don't know if it is because it is a person with an "accepted" gender expression (which I would say most femmes have) or if it is just the shock of their reactivity to the instigator, but I have only hears positive results in these situations. Often it results in the instigator feeling embarrassed or shame.

You hear about femmes staring people down for looking at their butches in a disgusted way and things like that as well. Don't discount our femmes (not saying you are), they are some tough ladies! They have dealt with cat calls their whole lives, they know how to deal with this shit!

Is your femme expressing discomfort and anxiety due to the heckling? Unless this is her "first rodeo" with a butch, she is probably used to it.

Have you talked with her about it?

[MysticOceansFL]

I've been called Syr a lot but I've never expierenced negative stuff at least not worth mentioning.






Originally Posted by MasterfulButch
I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

[MasterfulButch]

I haven't had this happen while with a partner in a very long while. I mean looks and stuff, but not heckling.

Anytime I have read a story about a butch being heckled when with their femme, the femme is quick to burst out in anger and protection. I don't know if it is because it is a person with an "accepted" gender expression (which I would say most femmes have) or if it is just the shock of their reactivity to the instigator, but I have only hears positive results in these situations. Often it results in the instigator feeling embarrassed or shame.

You hear about femmes staring people down for looking at their butches in a disgusted way and things like that as well. Don't discount our femmes (not saying you are), they are some tough ladies! They have dealt with cat calls their whole lives, they know how to deal with this shit!

Is your femme expressing discomfort and anxiety due to the heckling? Unless this is her "first rodeo" with a butch, she is probably used to it.

Have you talked with her about it?

Thanks for the input.

My femme’s pretty savvy and certainly more street-smart than I am so it’s not her ability to deal with such situations that troubles me. I’m just bothered that she’d find herself in that position in the first place. It feels like I’m inadvertently taking away her choice as to outing herself and for situations like this where it has negative ramifications, that’s something I’m struggling to reconcile.

You make an interesting point about cat calls though. I tend not to think about them because they are outside my experience but perhaps this is not as wholly alien to her as I think (and should be to everyone).

[BullDog]

What I have experienced is that as a butch I can be subjected at any time to the type of situation that MasterfulButch described, whether I am with a femme or not. It tends to be very sporadic and random and I never quite expect it. I could be out shopping or at a restaurant and it just comes out of the blue, although most of the time I don't have any problems at all. How frequent it happens to other butches will vary of course.

My observation from what femmes and other feminine women experience is more regular, almost like a drip, drip, drip of a faucet. They may not face cat calls every single day (some women may), but there is the constant assumption that feminine women are there for men and wanting their attention and "compliments." It plays out in various ways, but it is quite consistent rather than sporadic. At least that is what it seems like from my own observations. I think that most butches don't have to experience this on a daily basis.

I find that most femmes are extremely protective of their butch partners and friends and will go Mama Bear on anyone in a heart beat.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Thanks for the input.

It feels like I’m inadvertently taking away her choice as to outing herself and for situations like this where it has negative ramifications, that’s something I’m struggling to reconcile.

I'm not butch, so excuse me for butting in on the butch thread. I bolded the part that spoke to me....

The proudest moments in MY everyday life, are the moments when i am on my Kasey's arm (butch/gender male), and i am seen as her wife. I am not "seen" as queer or femme most other times. I won't go into how we deal with the attention, Dapper gave good feedback on that.

Your lady chooses to "out" herself when she steps out with you, enjoy that blessing.

[*Anya*]

Thanks for the input.

My femme’s pretty savvy and certainly more street-smart than I am so it’s not her ability to deal with such situations that troubles me. I’m just bothered that she’d find herself in that position in the first place. It feels like I’m inadvertently taking away her choice as to outing herself and for situations like this where it has negative ramifications, that’s something I’m struggling to reconcile.

You make an interesting point about cat calls though. I tend not to think about them because they are outside my experience but perhaps this is not as wholly alien to her as I think (and should be to everyone).

I have two observations.

The first is that I have always loved being with my Butch lesbian partners because it is the only time that I am recognized for who and what I am: a lesbian.

As a femme, I have always been mistaken for straight and it has always gotten really old to have that assumption made about me.

My second observation is one that may sound strange. Perhaps it was borne of always feeling that I was not pretty or sexy enough as a woman, starting as a teenager but I secretly liked the subtle (not overt) looks or attention I always got from men. That is hard to admit here but it is true. I always ignored them but on the inside, it felt validating, in some way. Socialized to feel that way, I guess.

I never got that attention from lesbians when I was by myself, because they dismissed me without a thought, as a straight woman.

I felt a real pang inside myself as I began to get older and became one of the invisible older women. On one hand, it was a relief to no longer deal with attention that truly was not wanted but on the other; it was a formal declaration of my own aging process.

Now that I have accepted my older woman status, I notice that my (older) Butch and I get barely a glance out in public.

I don't worry about a potential problem in the same way I did when I was young and with young butches.

[DapperButch]

I’m just bothered that she’d find herself in that position in the first place. It feels like I’m inadvertently taking away her choice as to outing herself and for situations like this where it has negative ramifications, that’s something I’m struggling to reconcile.





The proudest moments in MY everyday life, are the moments when i am on my Kasey's arm (butch/gender male),

Your lady chooses to "out" herself when she steps out with you, enjoy that blessing.

It is true that for the femmes who choose masculine looking butches (who are therefore assumed to be lesbian), they are outing themselves. However, they know that and they are choosing to be with you. What Ms. Tinkerbelly said and what Anya said after her I have heard before from partners. These women feel proud when they are with us. For some femmes they appreciate the visibility that being with a masculine female bodied person affords them.

The bottom line is that your partner knows she is outing herself when she is with you and she knows that things could become uncomfortable at times. It kind of comes with the territory of dating a butch. We are lucky indeed.

Side note, it is kind of weird that you haven't brought this up to her. If you have, and she says it isn't a problem, believe her! :)

Good discussion. Thanks for bringing it to the thread. :hangloose:

[Ascot]

I'm so happy to see that this thread still has a pulse.

Reading the last several posts about Femmes so beautifully choosing to out themselves every time they accompany us has me thinking about how it feels to be the other party in that configuration. I've certainly had the experience of feeling...cushioned. That's the closest word I can find for how it feels. Even as I feel more of everything I am, there's also a softness that seems to hover mere millimeters above everything. I'm pretty sure my walk changes a bit. Sometimes my biceps tighten, my shoulders straighten. I can feel my pride on my skin. Shit that might really annoy me when flying solo often becomes really funny with a partner in crime.

The feeling I don't have to carry is how suddenly people are seeing me differently. Likely no one's perception of me has changed because someone else of a certain sort is by my side. I get to be the same masculinely inclined dyke everyone always sees. I understand how many Femmes love having the validation and enjoy, even knowing the possible risks when being seen with us, finally being seen the way they see themselves. I love that our being with you can afford you that.

Thank you taking that on every time you step out with us.

[Tuff Stuff]

I always get the typical agnorant stares and suspicious looks,even in this day and age.I have long hair (half way down the back of my neck) today and I still get strangers coming up and asking me if i'm a man or a woman.It does not seem to bother me anymore,of course if I cut my hair extremely short and for my safety,still have to clear my throat everytime I enter a women's restroom.I tell those who are curious that i'm a butch woman and the same to those who are not.Most people accept me (i'm friendy about it) and to those who don't I just ignore.That's all I have for now on this subject.

[Daisy Chain]

I'm so happy to see that this thread still has a pulse.

Reading the last several posts about Femmes so beautifully choosing to out themselves every time they accompany us has me thinking about how it feels to be the other party in that configuration. I've certainly had the experience of feeling...cushioned. That's the closest word I can find for how it feels. Even as I feel more of everything I am, there's also a softness that seems to hover mere millimeters above everything. I'm pretty sure my walk changes a bit. Sometimes my biceps tighten, my shoulders straighten. I can feel my pride on my skin. Shit that might really annoy me when flying solo often becomes really funny with a partner in crime.

The feeling I don't have to carry is how suddenly people are seeing me differently. Likely no one's perception of me has changed because someone else of a certain sort is by my side. I get to be the same masculinely inclined dyke everyone always sees. I understand how many Femmes love having the validation and enjoy, even knowing the possible risks when being seen with us, finally being seen the way they see themselves. I love that our being with you can afford you that.

Thank you taking that on every time you step out with us.

Beautiful post Ascot. Thank you for sharing that.

Daisy :bouquet:

[Ascot]

I think this is a good place for this. Some might find it a tad long, but it is nonetheless interesting.

http://www.afterellen.com/tv/443117-butch-back

[Femminator]

Just a few days ago my Butch and I went to the Fair and took our girls for the day. They are teens so they went off to ride the rides and enjoy themselves, leaving just my Butch and myself to shop vendors and enjoy the sites. My Butch carried my packages for me, and we stopped while she got me my favorite, Cotton Candy. We were walking away and she helped to guide me through the crowd with a hand at the small of my back, when I noticed these two guys giving her a dirty look. I put my chin up and strode on past them, not even giving them any regard. I am ALWAYS proud to be with my Butch. It honestly worries her more than it does me, but it's because she fears for my safety. She told me if anything were to ever happen, I was to run and not look back.

[JDeere]

BUMP BUMP

I brought this topic up for discussion in a facebook group that I belong to, so far not many responses but this thread pretty much has summed up how some butches feel.

[Kosmo]

Still get stares mostly from older folks. I find it humorous now since I am older also.

I just love being gay. I would go so far as to say I am thankful of it. Told my girlfriend many times that if I were male, I'd want to be gay.

[ardentfemme]

Hope y’all don’t mind my reviving this post and adding my two cents.

As a femme, my identity is inherently defined in contrast to butches. I wouldn’t be who I am or love who I love without them. In this sense, I feel completely comfortable stepping out in public with butches because my identity is affirmed in the eyes of passersby and reflected back to me in my butch companion’s smile. Since I am straight-passing, many of today’s hip, anti-butch/femme lesbians don’t accept me because my femininity isn’t considered subversive enough. In a way, being seen with a butch in a public space allows me to feel both empowered by my femininity and subversive of heteropatriarchal values.

Moreover, it gives me the opportunity to reflect on the sacrifices those who came before us made just so we could step out the door together. Butches and femmes fought both literally and figuratively for this right. When I’m out with a butch, I feel the weight of our shared history resting equally on our shoulders. Furthermore, it’s a source of pride for me to walk down the street on a wonderful butch’s arm. It allows me to feel like my truest, most authentic self. And, as I’ve posted about previously, the way in which I navigate the world via my femininity shifts when I’m with a butch. My presentation exists not for male consumption (which I experience in the form of catcalls, harassment, and the like), but for myself and for those I love.

Part of me would have to say I actually enjoy this Otherization – I’m not saying I relish the stares and the derisive comments. Rather, they are a reminder that I have access to something special that my harassers will never understand. These stares and rude comments have made me stronger, fiercer. But they have also made me more empathetic towards others who are different. In short, they have made me a better person.

So, when I get teased or harassed or even threatened when I am seen with a butch (or any gender nonconforming person, for that matter), part of me is grateful because they have molded me into who I am.

I can’t speak for all femmes, but I have met many who have felt this way.

Anyway, here’s to remaining boldly, unapologetically ourselves.

[Kosmo]

It's the "otherness" that I embrace. I'm not overtly butch looking. Not the typical gay romance novel butch who's 5'-8", slim, blue eyed, long fingers, deep voice, and on, and on.

Like everyone here, I navigate the straight world every day and my butchness may or may not be recognized or acknowledged. I'm visible to myself and my sweetheart and it's that "otherness" that makes me smile.

[cathexis]

Weird one, my Partner is the calm. cool, collected butch who needs not be in someone's face about (except as it pertains to family), She just has this aura . She will walk into a room (really not meaning to), and be the center of attention without even wanted the attention. It's like a Butch (or I think it's her Alpha bubble) and Her aura just walked in. She never makes anyone else feel any lesser. Often comes in and helps with whatever project is being done.

This was just for comparison. I am the one on T and top surgery. She doesn't seem to need the validations of the world, but encourages me to pursue them for me to validate to myself , the fact of butchness.

[JDeere]

Weird one, my Partner is the calm. cool, collected butch who needs not be in someone's face about (except as it pertains to family), She just has this aura . She will walk into a room (really not meaning to), and be the center of attention without even wanted the attention. It's like a Butch (or I think it's her Alpha bubble) and Her aura just walked in. She never makes anyone else feel any lesser. Often comes in and helps with whatever project is being done.

This was just for comparison. I am the one on T and top surgery. She doesn't seem to need the validations of the world, but encourages me to pursue them for me to validate to myself , the fact of butchness.


I don't see anything wrong with seeking validation at all. I think its awesome that your partner encourages you to be your true self!

[homoe]

https://66.media.tumblr.com/9d4e9d8d7da03a3699ff5b3ae676f266/tumblr_inline_ouudn29fhn1ubcbin_540.gif




I suppose in this day and age, Miss Hathaway could be mooning over Ellie May instead of Jethrow...:hangloose:

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/45/03/4c4503f9535f48418d2b5d56d1c6d815.jpg




visibility and attitude a winning combo IMHO

[homoe]

http://sfbaytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/NEW-BT-6.23-all_Page_09_Image_0007.jpg






Visibility with a smile, can't beat that IMHO

[CherylNYC]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/45/03/4c4503f9535f48418d2b5d56d1c6d815.jpg




visibility and attitude a winning combo IMHO

Well, now. That's exactly what I wanted to see before I turn in for the night. Thanks, homoe.

DAMN, she's hot.

[homoe]

Well, now. That's exactly what I wanted to see before I turn in for the night. Thanks, homoe.

DAMN, she's hot.

You're most welcome Cheryl...

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/56/37/ee/5637eec48e09076937ad2554aa671d69.jpg




That's a pose that states confidence IMHO

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/99/4a/f8/994af8f7340516f77b50f8c413bfcaf4--butch-style-sexy-lesbians.jpg



Viability is being your true self IMHO

[homoe]

http://media.tumblr.com/313245b1bcc96501320bf0ee7399e7c0/tumblr_inline_moqxwoEets1qz4rgp.jpg


Who can resist a wining smile......

[homoe]

http://www.lesbianbusinesscommunity.com/uploads/news-pictures/44-livingston-blog-post-image-20160429123731.jpg



All business!

[homoe]

https://scontent-atl3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/6ffec5d37d4bb719ff63d5ed5da22d36/5D1BEE1A/t51.2885-15/e35/32362830_246433169267284_694082876995534848_n.jpg? _nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.cdninstagram.com


A butch who's good with her hands can't beat that..

[kittygrrl]

https://scontent-atl3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/6ffec5d37d4bb719ff63d5ed5da22d36/5D1BEE1A/t51.2885-15/e35/32362830_246433169267284_694082876995534848_n.jpg? _nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.cdninstagram.com


A butch who's good with her hands can't beat that..poetry, H:heartbeat:....:heartbeat:

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/56/37/ee/5637eec48e09076937ad2554aa671d69.jpg




That's a pose that states confidence IMHO

And with a woman of a certain age, even better

[homoe]

https://answersafrica.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Felicia-Pearson-and-girlfriend-j-adrienne.jpg


Visibility equals not giving a crap what the world thinks IMHO

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/3d/54/4a3d5496f1ac473578630346a5583bf8.jpg



Being ready to face whatever the world might throw your way with a smile, now that's visibility IMHO

[homoe]

https://taggmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads//2014/06/interview-with-the-stud-slayer-e1413741105597.jpg



And this too!

[CherylNYC]

Thank you, Homoe! What a wonderful collection of images.

[homoe]

Thank you, Homoe! What a wonderful collection of images.



Again, my pleasure Cheryl.......

[cathexis]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/45/03/4c4503f9535f48418d2b5d56d1c6d815.jpg.............. ...........




visibility and attitude a winning combo IMHO..........................

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/56/37/ee/5637eec48e09076937ad2554aa671d69.jpg.............. .....................


Please Santa, send these 2 gifts or any other of those butches, I've been good..................

Thanks, Homoe for a few night's fantasies................

That's a pose that states confidence IMHO ...................

[homoe]

https://www.yadkinarts.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Odd-Couple-300x300.png

[homoe]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e5/c2/36/e5c236e87de18614f7f4e18c2a006412.jpg

[homoe]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iB-pv4Nv-1k/UCxcmyFYxGI/AAAAAAABWRg/0MTY1kGekTA/s1600/IMG_2105.JPG

[homoe]

http://gomag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Courtesy-of-Haute-Butch.jpg