For the Love of Intentions!!

[Girl_On_Fire]

Okay...once upon a time I was new here and I started a thread (which shall remain nameless) asking what I believed to be an innocent question. Some saw this thread as an opportunity to start a dialogue while others treated my thread with all the delicacy of a hungry lion attacking a gazelle.

Anyway, as I spend more time on this site, I notice other newbies falling into this same situation. A new person joins the board. A question is asked. It is quite obvious (at least to me) that the intention is to receive knowledge about a subject or get a different perspective. There is nothing in the thread to indicate this new person is trying to be a provocateur.

Almost immediately, one or two of the responses are "Oh, you're in for an education about [insert topic here]." And then the "education" begins with the incredibly detailed picking apart of said question until it looks as though the intention was a purposeful yet thinly-veiled attack on lesbian/butch/femme/trans culture.

Why is that? Is it really just me or does nobody look at intention? Are we all just sitting up in the trees like vultures waiting for the first opportunity for somebody to step one toe out an imaginary line of so-called decorum? Are we that over-sensitive?

Being in the LBGT community already comes with enough doors being slammed in our faces for one reason or another. For some, boards like this are the last port in a storm for understanding and community.

Is there a reason we so easily and sometimes vehemently turn on each other?

I'd like to start an open discussion about this. Maybe unravel a few layers and go deeper into what could possibly be a much larger issue than what happens on this board.

[Words]

This reminds me of something that my partner said the other day, i.e., that when you join a site like this one, you join with your own level of 'education', which in some cases, will be 'higher' than that of many others. Take U/us for example. He came out in the 70s when He was 17/18, whereas I didn't come out until 1999 when I was 40, so even in O/our case, we have a different level of 'education' when it comes to all things queer. (Example: it was only through watching a documentary on Disco the other night that I discovered - and remember here that I'm not from the States - that Disco was born in the States amongst the gay/black community. I'd never even thought of its origins before, never realized that Disco was initially some kind of political statement/movement.)

So I think that what happens is that in some cases, we - the collective we - respond in not so nice/patient a manner one, because we've simply lost sight of the fact that we're all at different levels in terms of our 'education', or two, because we're simply bored with answering the same questions/discussing the same topics over and over again. I certainly know from personal experience that the more I'm 'around' the Planet, the harder it is to find threads that interest me because in a lot of cases, they deal with issues that have already been discussed to death, either here or elsewhere. However, I am aware of the fact that for a lot of other people, these are new topics and threads from which they can learn something so I basically have two choices, one, to find other ways to amuse/stimulate myself (easy option), or two, to open discussions relating to topics that to me, are still valid/important/interesting (slightly harder option). What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like you've done here).

Hope that makes sense.

Words

[girl_dee]

Maybe that's why they've changed the rule on starting new threads, (having so many posts before doing so) so that people can get a feel for things or realize there is already a thread out there for what they want. (multiple threads on the same subject bothers me a great deal!)

But i have seen this happen (to me ! ) when asking questions in a discussion. i asked a question and then there was a mild attack, then a person of reason wrote in an informative manner and i truly got educated.

We have also disingenuous folks starting threads for some crazy reasons, same reason an arsonist starts a fire and watches it burn. One person made us the subject of a project she was working on at school :| So we may be a bit defensive sometimes.

i try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume the person really just wants to know.

in my lifestyle (leather) many folks are curious and thats all good as long as they present themselves in a a respectful manner i am always willing to answer questions but that usually comes in private.

Nice thread!

[weatherboi]

I think people challenge ideas not the people posting the ideas. Everybody has a reaction, some will challenge back, some will golden flounce, some will retreat and never be heard from again, some will hold on to it for a long, long time, and some will deflect defensively and take it personally.

I don't think people get attacked, and I certainly don't think it is worthy of painting it in such a manner that it depicts community members like animals. We all end up in the hot seat, including me. Anybody remember the tap thread? I felt many things but never once thought I was being attacked. When people post words like "attacked", "bullied", "clique", "piled" on I tend to tune out due to the self victimization that coils around that pattern. If posts continually insinuate racist, sexist, sizeist, or any isms, I may or may not, but probably will, question intent.

If assuming a posters intent behind an idea is not ok then why is it ok to assume what space a poster is posting from?? Are you on the other side of the computer with them? Do you speak to them in real time and know what emotional space they are posting from? General you!!!

[Girl_On_Fire]

What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like you've done here).

Hope that makes sense.

Words

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway).

The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:


Honest belief that someone is trying to start an arguement.
The question has been done to death.
Based on the life experience of the reader, the words written are genuinely offensive.


Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience.

As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel.

I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.

[Words]

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

SO sorry, I see now that I wasn't clear.

What I meant was, ''What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like YOU'VE done the work here). In other words, I was commending, not criticizing.

Make sense now?

Words

[DapperButch]

SO sorry, I see now that I wasn't clear.

What I meant was, ''What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like YOU'VE done the work here). In other words, I was commending, not criticizing.

Make sense now?

Words

Girl_On_Fire,

"Doing the work", means a person working through their privileges, isms, etc.

[Words]

Girl_On_Fire,

"Doing the work", means a person working through their privileges, isms, etc.

Not in this context it doesn't (see my post above).

Thanks:)

[DapperButch]

Not in this context it doesn't (see my post above).

Thanks:)

Sorry, Words. I should have kept my nose out of it. :blush:

[girl_dee]

I think people challenge ideas not the people posting the ideas. Everybody has a reaction, some will challenge back, some will golden flounce, some will retreat and never be heard from again, some will hold on to it for a long, long time, and some will deflect defensively and take it personally.

I don't think people get attacked, and I certainly don't think it is worthy of painting it in such a manner that it depicts community members like animals. We all end up in the hot seat, including me. Anybody remember the tap thread? I felt many things but never once thought I was being attacked. When people post words like "attacked", "bullied", "clique", "piled" on I tend to tune out due to the self victimization that coils around that pattern. If posts continually insinuate racist, sexist, sizeist, or any isms, I may or may not, but probably will, question intent.

If assuming a posters intent behind an idea is not ok then why is it ok to assume what space a poster is posting from?? Are you on the other side of the computer with them? Do you speak to them in real time and know what emotional space they are posting from? General you!!!



Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember.

For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me.

One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums.

If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. .

[thedivahrrrself]

I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.

Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning.

I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.

[Kelt]

I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.

Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning.

I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.

:yeahthat:

Well stated. Thanks.

[JAGG]

Okay...once upon a time I was new here and I started a thread (which shall remain nameless) asking what I believed to be an innocent question. Some saw this thread as an opportunity to start a dialogue while others treated my thread with all the delicacy of a hungry lion attacking a gazelle.

Anyway, as I spend more time on this site, I notice other newbies falling into this same situation. A new person joins the board. A question is asked. It is quite obvious (at least to me) that the intention is to receive knowledge about a subject or get a different perspective. There is nothing in the thread to indicate this new person is trying to be a provocateur.

Almost immediately, one or two of the responses are "Oh, you're in for an education about [insert topic here]." And then the "education" begins with the incredibly detailed picking apart of said question until it looks as though the intention was a purposeful yet thinly-veiled attack on lesbian/butch/femme/trans culture.

Why is that? Is it really just me or does nobody look at intention? Are we all just sitting up in the trees like vultures waiting for the first opportunity for somebody to step one toe out an imaginary line of so-called decorum? Are we that over-sensitive?

Being in the LBGT community already comes with enough doors being slammed in our faces for one reason or another. For some, boards like this are the last port in a storm for understanding and community.

Is there a reason we so easily and sometimes vehemently turn on each other?

I'd like to start an open discussion about this. Maybe unravel a few layers and go deeper into what could possibly be a much larger issue than what happens on this board.

I love the thread, thanks for starting it. I agree , and have seen it happen many times. You ask alot of good questions, that I myself would be interested in knowing the answers to.

[TruTexan]

Yeah, what Jagg said, I agree. I've read it in threads too. *shrugs*

[Novelafemme]

I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.

Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning.

I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.

This really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Diva. I had to re-read it a couple of times in order to put my finger on something that at first puzzled me. That being the portion I high lighted in blue.

Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual.

Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together.

I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[thedivahrrrself]

Novela, I think you are right. We are a small community, and if we can't start trying to bridge our differences, then we will be just as divided as the US political system.

I'm not saying we tolerate blatant racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc., but that we try to engage to get to the root of it, rather than force people out of the conversation. Through a series of conversations and questions, I once got an 80-year-old Georgia woman to say, "You know you're right, those people really aren't any different from us. They were just born with different colors of skin." If she could change at that age, I believe anyone can. But when we attack rather than try to get them to clarify, we only reinforce their opinions and end up accomplishing nothing.

[julieisafemme]

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

[Girl_On_Fire]

*beams* Just got back from my weekend away and am so happy to see how this thread is turning out. I think we've got a great discussion going on here!

:D

[weatherboi]

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway).

The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:


Honest belief that someone is trying to start an arguement.
The question has been done to death.
Based on the life experience of the reader, the words written are genuinely offensive.


It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience.

I get that people need interaction and community to learn. I did, but I went into it knowing I might get my ass handed to me. Hands on learning can be dirty, painful, and frustrating for everybody, not just the person learning. I think it is ok...it is ok for someone to react in an angry or upset manner when I am being intrusive in their life. We will all be the uninformed people in the room at one time or another in this life. It is ok. There is no hierarchy in communication here or in real time, there are only people that try and people that don't. Those who are willing to listen and those that don't and we all do it differently. Nobody needs to feel bad for how they communicate because people choose to take them that way.

As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel.

I will be more specific and I understand it wasn't literal and I am certain you don't think anyone here is an actual vulture or lion. I myself have spent a lifetime having people use animal descriptors to describe me in a not nice way. I have friends and family here that have had animal descriptors used against them to belittle them. Literal or not this is not a book of fiction and the people you are talking about are people I love including myself...i love myself. So here I am a fellow community member asking nicely to please refrain from it. I hope this helps clears up any questions about my intentions. If I can do the same for you just please ask me.

I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.


Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember.

For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me.


One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums.

I can relate to this. The Reunion I attended I had a few people tell me I was much nicer than I seemed on the website. After that I came back and reread myself and found I could use some soft skills and I also came to the conclusion that people aren't sitting in the room with me and need to check themselves. We are all accountable.

If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. .

I don't think it is a character flaw although I know it has felt that way for me sometimes. It is a rare human that doesn't get defensive about some situation that comes up in life. I know I have and will continue to do so in certain venues of my life.

I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.

Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning.

[COLOR="Red"]I love all those things about the South you mention and then some. There is a difference between loving things/experiences you can only find in the South and having "Southern Pride". When speaking of the South many/most/all of the debates in this venue have been about "Southern Pride" or the Confederate flag, not because people love certain things they find in the South. There is a thread here to talk about those things we love. I keep those things I love about the South by supporting the venues that offer them to me, not by flying or wearing a flag that is offensive to a large portion of the population.

I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.

This really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Diva. I had to re-read it a couple of times in order to put my finger on something that at first puzzled me. That being the portion I high lighted in blue.

Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual.

Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together.

I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.

Novela, I think you are right. We are a small community, and if we can't start trying to bridge our differences, then we will be just as divided as the US political system.

I'm not saying we tolerate blatant racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc., but that we try to engage to get to the root of it, rather than force people out of the conversation. Through a series of conversations and questions, I once got an 80-year-old Georgia woman to say, "You know you're right, those people really aren't any different from us. They were just born with different colors of skin." If she could change at that age, I believe anyone can. But when we attack rather than try to get them to clarify, we only reinforce their opinions and end up accomplishing nothing.

Gaps do need to be bridged! It has to be a mutual effort. I think people would do themselves a world of good to go back and read, read, read, before they decide to start threads on hot button topics. It is good to know your audience before you get behind the podium for a candid discussion. The part that is bolded I need help with please. What would a person calling out another person on their racism/sexism/homophobia reinforce? Even if said person perceives it as a hostile attack, what would it be reinforcing?


This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I don't see it as "being piled on" but that my community is giving feedback about my thoughts and opinions. I can recognize that some people don't see it that way and understand some people need to be approached more gently. I have been told to "do the work" when I was younger by a professor and by college mates. It didn't feel like a bad thing. I felt naive and a little behind the progressive space I was in. I don't think that was bad for me, it was a good motivator. It is hard for me to post on anything but fluff anymore and even then I am sometimes turned off by all the passive aggressive posting that goes on. It is an effort to navigate around that sometimes. It is not fun watching people get in trouble and brings me no personal pleasure. My point is, people behaving badly does not just occur in conversations where people are engaged in a debate. I treat threads like Vegas, "What happens in a thread, stays in a thread.". What I mean is if I have a disagreement with somebody I don't plan to hold on to that and not like that person and not be friendly.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

I agree, we are all so interconnected that if I do happen to come in contact with a member on the outside I genuinely don't hold on to stuff and want to have a positive interaction unless the member has made it clear they don't want contact with me. That has happened too and I am ok with that because I respect peoples boundaries. Great questions and great post julieisafemme.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

[Medusa]

I have so many thoughts around this.

Couple of things: Does dogpiling happen? Yep. Do folks sometimes say stupid shit and then get all defensive about it when people call them out on it? Yep.
Can we *all* do a better job of listening before we react? Yep.

A couple of things I have observed about perception in my years in this particular B/F/T community (going on 14 years now) is that 2 things seem to happen with regularity.

1. Someone says something stupid, gets called out on it, defends it, gets called out by more folks, defends it even more and messier, folks get pissed at one another, someone is a "bully", a member of a "clique", or a "gang", and before you know it, sides are taken and the whole thing is a hot mess.

2. Someone says something stupid, someone gets really pissed about it and calls them out in a shitty way, the person is truly sorry about it and owns that they should have thought about it more, the mad person won't let it go, sides get taken again and the whole thing is a hot mess.

The really frustrating thing that has happened in the past several times is that this has sometimes escalated to "The Space" somehow becoming responsible for what an individual said.

Who has the responsibility in a situation like this:

New member comes to the site, identifies as a Femme, starts a thread entitled "Where are all the rich Butches?!" and proceeds to post about how they are tired of encountering Butches who don't have jobs or live with their Momma.

What if someone feels like they are being really classist and says, "Hey, maybe money isn't the most important thing in the world! I think you are really missing out on some good people because you are being super classist about this and shallow"

Commence argument.

I think some of the frustration I have seen comes when folks seem unwilling to examine their privileges or narrow-minded idealism. This is not to say that folks don't get to have desires. I'm all for that! But what if their desire is couched in denigrating other people's ways of being?
(Thinking about how discussions on loving BBW Femmes often includes sizist anti-thin comments or how discussions about Butches often has commentary around "eeewwwwwwwww" for Butches who date other Butches)


There is another component here that I'd like to mention around intent. Some folks have been around a long, long time and have finely-honed bullshit detectors. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing when folks call bullshit on a brand new person showing up on the site, getting super familiar with lots of folks, claiming to be a millionaire a doctor or a pilot, and having several different weird stories around their life that don't add up.

Why? Because it's happened 100 times.

So are some folks jaded? You bet your ass. :)

[Girl_On_Fire]

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

[Cin]

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.


For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.


I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

All this post resonates with me but I highlighted the specific areas that really touched me. When someone comes into a forum and posts something racist, sexist, classist, misogynistic, or in some way blatantly offensive they may not be doing it to stir up shit or for any nefarious reason other than that is how they really feel. They may not be aware that they are being offensive. I don't think that changes the fact that they actually are being offensive. It always feels unfair to me that a person has to read those offensive words, feel all the yucky ways that stuff makes one feel, make a decision not to take the easy road and remain silent but to speak out, point out the problem explaining why it is offensive and then be attacked and labeled as someone who is always making a big deal out of stuff. To quote weatherboi "It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled"."

I think it is important to ask people to be responsible for their words. It's not fair to say things and then when someone asks you to be accountable for what you are saying and to look at the implications of your words that you accuse them of attacking you or pummeling you.

I think it is just as important to call out this stuff in one's online community as it is to call it out in the real world. I would never allow someone to throw racist, sexist, classist etc comments around me unchallenged in my everyday life, why should I allow it in my online community.

Again to quote Weatherboi "Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative."

Asking people to be accountable is like taking a stroll through a minefield. I certainly wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in my heart that it is the right thing to do. I don't know why people feel like being asked to look at the things they are saying is such a terrible thing. Or why they think it is a judgment against them as a person. Maybe that is something we should examine. Everybody says something that is offensive to someone at some point. We all have blind spots. That's what other people can do for you. They can show you where you are failing to see something clearly or where you are failing to take into account the way your words can effect others, the way you can be unclear on the implications of what you are saying. That's not a bad thing. It can facilitate personal growth. I don't know why someone who helps facilitate the opportunity for growth is seen in such a negative light. I am grateful for each and every person who has helped me grow. I'm not saying growth isn't painful but it's the growth that is causing the pain not the person trying to illuminate a blind spot.

[Nic]

Still figuring out how to quote things and not much time.

As a new member of the community I've spent a fair amount of time reading rather than posting. Reading some of the hot topic left me with the feeling that some of the more experienced folks occasionally get tired of being the sign posts for enlightenment.

"Do the work" is a great phrase. Makes sense to ask people to be accountable, naive or not. In a defensive frame of mind (everyone has it from time to time) it might sound like an accusation rather than a request or suggestion.

Privilege is my trigger. I'm an ass about it. I try to be gentle about naivete but I can come on like a 2 x 4 swinging a 4 x 6 when people are being malicious. Don't mind it either. Keeps me warm at night. Also recognize that I have privilege of my own. Takes an awake head to be in both spaces at once. Who wants to be a hypocrite?

In situations where I'm the old hand who's tired of hearing the same tired argument, -ism, whatever, I leave the enlightenment debate to people with more patience. I don't need to be the sign post everyday. Some days I can just be a post. No signs.

[girl_dee]

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!


Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

[julieisafemme]

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

Yeah that has happened to me a lot! Just recently in the Miley Cyrus thread and talking about appropriation. That is why I come here!

Sometimes people are nice about it and sometimes they are not. I am ok with that.

Miss Tick mentioned that sometimes the naive question can be hurtful. Not intentionally so but hurtful nonetheless. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid places to ask them. I was told quite clearly that my white person musings were hurtful and that it would be best to take those up with other white people or read some Tim Wise. In other words...do the work! So my intentions really did not mean much in this situation.

I don't hold anyone responsible for my learning or my feelings and social interaction. That is on me. While it is admirable to try and be kind and patient always towards all it is not realistic. If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

[Gemme]

If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

Exactly.

If someone, whether brand spanking new or well-seasoned, asks a question or brings up a topic, they need to be well aware that they have no control over the responses received and they need to be prepared to accept what follows.

They might not agree with how the discussion flows or with other viewpoints, but if you open a door, you have to expect daylight to come in. Otherwise, you are living in the dark ages.

[weatherboi]

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

I am not implying that all people know better. I have seen some community members here string along many people in the community including myself. One especially comes to mind, she claimed to be a physics student and professional football player. She was new and everybody tip toed around all her nonsense for quite some time until it was revealed she was just here to create chaos.


For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

Understood, I can see where perceived harshness could feel yucky to you if that is your reaction. I don't take exclamation points or ALL CAPS as symbolizing a vehement response. Accusations are different, because that requires being able to defend written thoughts that are either being misunderstood or not. I think when we start threads we need to be prepared for anything because there are many members here that participate and not all people participate the same.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Well, we all have things that come up and send us running. We all have things in life that can be damaging and confusing. I have trained myself to stay out of those arenas when I am not prepared to handle the heated debate or the feedback. Nobody but ourselves can police what is good for us and what isn't. We can't expect total strangers to change themselves in this venue if they are playing by the rules and following the TOS.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

This is not my experience. Usually for me, the benign approach escalates because the person is not receiving the kind of attention they were seeking. I have seen it happen in a thread and I have seen it happen to someone that gets singled out by a person. You can treat them benignly, nonchalantly, call them out or any number of ways to try and handle it gently, but if the person is set on getting the community or one community members attention it can turn ugly if they are doing so by crossing boundaries. Understand I do not have you in mind when I am talking about people doing this.


I am not really comfortable expecting members to post a certain way if they aren't breaking any TOS rules. I can only control what I post. I am comfortable if a community member requests something from me, I have no problem trying to accommodate them to the best of my ability if it is a reasonable request.

[Medusa]

I've mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions in the past but I feel like it's a good add-on to this discussion.

I got dog-piled 13 years ago on the Dash site and have never forgotten it! LOL

I was in my early 20s and was fairly new to the Butch/Femme dynamic (or at least naming it that, I had always dated masculine women....except for that one girl, and that's a different thread!). Anyway, I found a thread on the Dash site and there was some heated debate going on with more seasoned folks about whether or not Trans men belonged in Butch/Femme space.

YES, that discussions actually happened. YES, people were pissed.

Anyway, I was trying to wade through the cyber-slaps to see what people were actually saying and got so frustrated with the constant negativity and personal jabs that I made some foolish comment like, "Good God, we're all women here! Can't we just get along?"

I was immediately handed my ass by Toughy, Heart, and a couple of other folks!

Oh, I pouted my ass off and was mad as hell!!! How dare these people try to school me on anything! Who were they after all to talk to me like I was stupid!!

Looking back, they weren't rude to me at all. They were, however, very direct (and one of the group was pretty aggressive) and informed me that No, not ALL folks on the site were women and that I needed to think about my remarks and how it erased folks.

And I sat back and was all, "WTF do you mean we aren't all women???? Do we have vaginas or not??"

And then commence my education on how sex organs do not equal gender!
And then commence my education on how Trans men are part of the continuum of gender that I needed to learn about!
And then commence me being really, really reticent to get involved in any heavy discussions for a good long while. :)

Having your ass handed to you by folks out in the wide open is often not very fun and can even feel humiliating. Thing is, that's just ego talking!
I took that experience and learned from it and consider both Toughy and Heart not only my friends but my elders (in the respect that they were way more knowledgeable about gender and identity than I ever dreamed to be!)

Folks have a choice with how they digest information. They can get really defensive and butthurt and sull up or they can consider the information to see if they think it has any merit. And this isn't saying that everyone who calls you out on something is worthy of listening to, because let's face it, some folks are full of fucking shit and can't examine their own shit much less someone else's.

But if several folks are saying it? It's worth a listen!

There is a line where you can still listen to what folks have to say, respect it as best you can, but not accept it or digest it.
Good example for me is folks who are a certain slant of political party. I might think that folks who wanted Sarah Palin or Donald Trump for President are complete and utter idiots but I'll give them a listen to see why they feel that way. Because not all of them are idiots. Some of them are racists and some of them are sexist assholes and still further, some of them havent done any research at all on what Sarah Palin stands for but think that having a woman anything in political office is a grand thing.

It's always tough to see people defending their right to be racist or sizist. And even harder still when the folks defending their racism try to paint the folks calling them out as "bullies" or a "gang". I think about how much energy it takes to be defensive versus how much energy it takes to just listen. :)

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it all boils down to how you respond, not what you say. If someone says something that is offensive to you, calling them out on it and pointing out how it could be offensive could actually be very beneficial to the poster. It's when someone reacts as though the information is "already known" that gets under my skin like so much sand in my bathing suit. And this is whether it's directed at me or not. I'm an underdog so I'm a fighter for the underdog.

Then again, I'd make a lousy lawyer because I truly believe people are simply making simple social errors when they post "cringe-worthy" threads or responses to threads. I want to take them aside and gently tell them they have their social skirt tucked into their pantyhose. I can't let anyone walk around with egg on their face. I can only think back to the times before I discovered I had Asperger's and would walk around with my foot permanently crammed into my mouth and had no earthly clue why I was losing friends, jobs, etc. right and left.

If only, I've said for years, if ONLY someone had taken me aside and explained what I was doing wrong. If only someone had seen my intentions instead of my behavior.

I think this life experience has given me a unique experience and a particular sensitivity when I believe anyone else's intentions might be being misunderstood.

The entire reason for this post was to make a suggestion to the general you to, the next time you see a post that makes you want to fire with both barrels, stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment before responding. At least on a public forum, you can do that. If someone says something insulting in front of you, it's much harder to control your reaction.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Holy fuckin epic post! I'm on my phone so I can only see like three sentences at a time.

Sorry!!!! I hope anyone's eyeballs bleeding at this point are able to still see something through the haze of the pink fountain my prattling on has caused.

Insomnia. Can't shut up. Probable light me on fire in a bag and I'd talk to you about it....

Oh and scuse the nonsense that's probable in that post. Autocorrect is a bitch.

[Daktari]

:vigil: <<< for bleeding eyeballs everywhere

[imperfect_cupcake]

Are you offering to cauterise the flow with that, sicko?

[Daktari]

:awww: she called me sicko :countpetal:

[macele]

just because the thread or post is there doesn't mean i have to comment. any thread. any post. my two cents can be silenced. sometimes just letting the ignorance float in cyberspace, ... it will go silent too.

there are those times when it's not for the love of intentions. if i'm not sure, i just go with it. the poster will reveal their intentions. i believe that i should give the benefit of the doubt if possible. but the truth is, ... there are people out to start trouble. play head games. up to no good. and so on.

for those that are innocent. just trying to make friends. be a part of the group. and they are jumped on for not typing their words just so, ... that's just plain ole meanness.

i don't have a catalog of educated words. but i hope that i can use my common sense when communicating, wherever and whenever. i do not want to walk on eggshells. i do not like drama. confusion. if i can't be at ease, i'll not take part. instead of engaging in the drama, so called debate, etc. i'll walk away. but i'm not a bahhck bahhhck chick lol.

one of the good things about communicating with others online is that i can think before i "speak". there's no reason to hurt someones feelings. if the truth hurts, well. but even then, the truth can be spoken kindly. i just don't think there is ever a reason to humiliate. i can ignore or take it to private.

there are times when i should take responsibility for the feelings of others. so i appreciate/thank Girl_On_Fire for the love of intentions.

[imperfect_cupcake]

:awww: she called me sicko :countpetal:
I'm afraid distance prohibits proper response.

I'm tempted to just post a picture of me flashing my tits instead as a boob form of a v-sign but nipple is not allowed.

Daktari. If I have to go to one more polite event I'm going to open my wrists with an electric razor.

I did meet a nice English girl from Surrey and went drinking with her. She yelled at me from across the bar "Babs ya deaf cunt!!! Come back with crisps!"

I stuck my thumb up signalling I heard her but there was a very shocked and curious look from the other patrons...

Sorry. Back to the subject of polite response.

[Daktari]

Nipples maybe against the ToS but they're quite de rigueur in my emails. Come on now, don't be shy! :perv:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Nipples maybe against the ToS but they're quite de rigueur in my emails. Come on now, don't be shy! :perv:



You think I won't, right?

[Daktari]

You think I won't, right?

Quite the contrary.

Bring.

It.

On.

Biatch!

:grindevil:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Quite the contrary.

Bring.

It.

On.

Biatch!

:grindevil:

Well I guess you changed your email and someone else got a surpise about 30 min ago. Good thing there was no face in that.

[Daktari]

Well I guess you changed your email and someone else got a surpise about 30 min ago. Good thing there was no face in that.

Oh no I di'n't :cheesy:

Why that's the very best 'v' I've seen errm flicked fer a long time

Instinct wants to grrrrowl "good girl!"

Lurve
Priapus of Blackpool

[DMW]

I had an experience. I know that some of my posts, even with the best intentions, disturbed others on this site. For that, I apologize. I can be an horrific poster. Grammar, spelling or in a rush and should never have joined a conversation due to a lack of time to stick around.
Also, I don't always read all of the previous post!



One truth that I experienced and that sticks in my head...

A member ( poster B) can post a reply to a previous post from another member ( poster A) in an emotional outbursts and later, go back and alter their original outburst to come across , in the end, as if it never occurred.

For example, ( poster B) can quote the original emotional offensive outburst from (poster A) which caused the emotional offensive response from poster B.

So, the offended poster B replied to the original poster A ,which had offended poster B , all the while...

Poster B deleted their emotionally charged response to appear rational. (And this response caused poster A to become even more upset.) After having quoted poster A's outbursts so that poster A.s words were permanent. Then, poster B can go and fetch a moderator that is unaware of what all was said by poster B and report the offensive poster A's outburst.

What is a moderator to do with that? They didn't see it all and there is no way that they can be objective or fair cause they are unaware.
So, the moderator appears to be unfair when they just didn't know what all transpired in the outbursts.

Result: poster B doesn't get punished at all because their altered post is rational, in the end. Poster A, who caused the response from poster B got punished severely.

It is very sad. But, I saw it.

I would never want to be a moderator. My hats are off to them.
And I am not an ass kisser. Never have been. I try and respect people. But, I do fail sometimes. I have been moderated and rightly so. I can own it. And I actually, am glad that I was. I could have done better.

For the love of intentions and possible solutions...
Maybe only allow the edit feature to last a few minutes.
Get rid of the edit feature?
Idk?

[Cin]

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

That has often been my experience. I have been bitten one too many times. It really pisses me off because here I am trying to be nice even though you’ve just said something that is painful and to my mind thoughtless. For example someone says something that is misogynistic. I find this kind of thing left unchallenged is hurtful and reinforcing of oppression that women still endure day after day after day. If I say nothing it will seem as though this is acceptable. Silence is acceptance. So I try as kindly and tactfully as possible to bring this to the attention of the poster. He or she feels attacked and reacts aggressively.

It has taken me literally decades to come to terms with the reality that facts, even in abundance and presented with unusual clarity, even in the most non confrontational way, will not necessarily change a person’s mind. After that rather frustrating insight, it has taken me still longer to understand that this phenomenon of increased strength in beliefs proven to be incorrect by facts is not just someone being stubborn and purposefully obtuse. It’s just how we humans roll.

We tend to think that if people are furnished with the facts they will become enlightened; we believe that knowledge is the best remedy against ignorance and misinformation. Unfortunately, often the opposite is true. People will become more firmly entrenched in their beliefs.

The disheartening truth is that facts do not necessarily have the power to change people’s minds. The reality is that we base our opinions on our beliefs. And beliefs don’t care diddly-squat about facts. This often forces people to choose only facts that agree with their beliefs, or to twist facts into misshapen truths otherwise known as lies, or to accept wrong information as truth simply because it reinforces their views.

Apparently facts by themselves are meaningless to our brains, they are raw data that must be processed subconsciously through our feelings and experiences and filtered through the lens of our life circumstance and molded into our judgments and personal viewpoints. These beliefs are our own, formed initially from facts and information but colored, interpreted and given meaning, often beyond recognition, by our life experience and our feelings. But from what I understand our beliefs make us feel safe. Considering that information, it is understandable that people would cling tenaciously to incorrect data and wrongheaded beliefs.

So if we choose to confront someone who is being racist or sexist or any other “ism” and think we can show them the error of their ways or even if we just engage in a debate and we believe we have enough facts to change the person’s mind we should probably think again. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it. I’m just saying the odds of a favorable outcome are slim to none.

The more threatened we feel the more tenaciously we cling to our beliefs. People feel threatened when challenged, even if we couch that challenge in hearts and flowers. And personally I try very hard to use the hearts and flowers framing approach. I always try to be thoughtful of the feelings of others even when, no, especially when, I am trying to challenge them to reconsider something offensive that they have said. I am not always successful. I’m sure what I consider to be thoughtful and kind may not feel that way to the person I am confronting. I don’t know what to do about that. I can only try to be kind. The only other option is not to confront and that’s no option at all.

I’m not saying I challenge every single offensive comment I see. That would take a level of commitment I surely do not possess. I wouldn’t even want to. It would be like being forever adrift in negativity. I prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.

What I am talking about is offensiveness of a degree that if left unchallenged would carry a level of complicity. The comment, post or thread may simply be a matter of ignorance about a particular subject or a lack of experience or exposure to something and may not be a purposeful offense. However not to challenge it suggests complicity and it is also a disservice to not attempt to help a new or even an old community member come to understand something of significant importance. I just no longer imagine a favorable outcome.

Which is a good thing for me because I used to go into these kinds of situations with such naiveté it was painful to watch. I remember on the dash site I was rather viciously attacked for suggesting to someone that they might want to consider that posting butches who wear lipstick make them want to vomit might be hurtful to a butch reading these words who wears lipstick and there might be a better way to convey this information such as saying that she prefers a butch who does not wear lipstick. She was not pleased by my suggestion. And her boyfriend was not either and he came in to help her kick me around a bit. I was puzzled that neither of them was moved that their words might be hurtful to someone else. As a matter of fact they went out of their way to say even more hurtful words. It was a lesson for me. I learned not to expect people to react well to a plea for empathy. It is very difficult for many people to put themselves in another’s place and imagine how something feels to that other person. Either that or it is difficult for them to give a shit once they do imagine how it feels to others.

Anyway back to the more important and infinitely more enjoyable conversation about HB’s boobs.

[Nic]

HoneyBarbara :popcorn: Daktari

[imperfect_cupcake]

My boobs are fairly pleased with the naked character value asessment from Daktari. I think my boobs have said enough. Daktari? Yes?

I know that I've been dogpiled by people on the dash site and at the English site (and they are much meaner) to the point I no longer post there. There have been misunderstandings about my posts that some patriots have taken deep offense to even though I and other foreigners had tried very hard to explain they were misreading/not understanding my original post - so I eventually left the board. I got tired of being told I hate English people when I don't. I would try to discuss difficulty with understanding cultural differences at times, hoping someone would explain the back ground to a specific trait so I could.try to understand. Learning the history of beer and public houses led me to understanding pub culture.
But asking something like "why do people act like I'm going to hit them with an Axe when I nod and say 'morning' or 'afternoon' as I pass them in a field instead of just nodding back?" Became something like me attacking britishness to a handful of the posters there. The foreigners would snicker about this recognized trait and anyone who had lived abroad would try to reexplain my question and come up with a plausible answer. Most people hadn't thought that there might be a different way to be around strangers. Talking to people you dont know is invasive and rude. In person my English mates would laugh, agree and there would be a really interesting discussion around my questions.

But on line is not a group of mates. It doesn't translate the same way. And I know that some places I have left. But also understand that when talking to a highly diverse audience, the chances of me being offensive go up. Highly. I know that means I should switch voice to something a bit less... Me? And more like I am talking at school. I forget this a lots
Talking on a forum its up to the speaker to clarify and if you aren't good with words then its a hard row to hoe. Its a word based medium. That's why a lot of people only stick to the fluffy thread and games.

And why some people leave. I left the other forum because I got bored of clarifying, making apologetic jokes, putting down boundaries and having a long list of people on ignore/block.

Sometimes people's needs around forums change and they leave.

And it is hard to hear something when you feel that its not actually what you are saying. I found out the same six people would take shots at me about being very open about sex, about relationships, if I ever mentioned the words butch or femme or talked about mental health so I learned that it wasnt so much the topics but more about those six women's irritations about me as a person. But you don't know that until you watch the dynamics at a board for a while and know whom to ignore. And whom is telling you things to educate because you've made an epic fuck up in assumptions.

[Daktari]

My boobs are fairly pleased with the naked character value asessment from Daktari. I think my boobs have said enough. Daktari? Yes?

*snip*

Enough...for today, yes!

However, I'm always available for further intercourse with them. :blink:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Enough...for today, yes!

However, I'm always available for further intercourse with them. :blink:

Awww see. You make me miss the ability of the English to flirt with humour and a sledge hammer. Omg I miss the filthy innuendo and winks.

OK I did just show you my tits so that's probably helpful.

</I'm stopping now>

[thedivahrrrself]

Wow, this thread blew up while I was away!

From Page 1 (sorry, I'm so behind):

Weatherboi, that has not been my experience with the word "Southern". If you're talking about the Confederate flag, you're inviting a lively debate IMHO - you should probably expect to be piled on. I haven't personally seen anyone write about Southern pride; I suppose like any kind of geographic or regional pride, that would invite some debate as well.

No, my experience has been when people used the word in passing such as talking about "Southern manners" (which I'll readily admit to me means "say things behind my back and not to my face" LOL) and also when someone ID's as a "Southern Butch" or "Southern Femme". To me, if you are using something as an ID, you get to define it. I don't get to define "trans" to anyone who ID's that way, and they don't get to define "queer" to me. These are words that mean different things to different people. This is where I take issue with the "piling on" (for lack of a better term).

[Martina]

I haven't personally seen anyone write about Southern pride; I suppose like any kind of geographic or regional pride, that would invite some debate as well.


Oh, it has happened. And more than once. And "Southern Pride" is NOT like any other geographic or regional pride. That phrase is code for a lot of ideas that come under white racist ideology. In my experience, Southerners who do NOT intend to express racist ideology do not use that phrase much. At least not Southerners I have known.

Anyway, the conversation has been had, more than once.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

I love and relate to this so much it isn't funny. I've always been crazy-blunt myself. And, I have a sarcastic streak to my humor that's often missed. (I love the "animals" comment, btw).

You're right, everybody is different and I cannot tell you how many times I've apologized in my life. Millions at least. Even if I didn't clearly understand what I did to cause offense. I used to apologize and explain so much as a child, I got in trouble for that too. I still do it.

I, too, am usually the aggressor and end up attracting a type that doesn't work with my dynamic. I am so not coy. I'm either unable to speak or I just come out with whatever. There's never a middle ground for me.

No, I don't expect anybody to walk around on eggshells. For me, though, there is a big difference between, "Why don't you go find another board to sling your sh*t on?" and "Do you realize [such and such term] might be considered offensive?"

Is that always going to happen? No. Of course not. When someone hits a nerve, someone hits a nerve. But if you're automatically assuming everyone who writes something that could be perceived as offensive is doing it on purpose, you might come across to the poster as a threat.

I realize I'm defending a small percentage of the population here. Most can take it. I know I've had to learn how to. The first accidentally-offensive post I made got such a reaction, I almost retreated but I resisted the urge and it actually turned into a good dialogue.

Seeing intentions online is nearly impossible. That's why giving people the benefit of the doubt at first might be the best approach. After that, they're fair game. ;)

[Martina]

I think when we get into discussions about how we ought to communicate, we end up forgetting that there are usually actual serious issues getting ironed out.

One of the many has been the whole notion that there is one way of doing butch or femme. That explodes periodically, as it should.

New folk end up accidentally -- or not -- swatting a beehive now and then -- meaning one of our simmering issues. And then all hell breaks loose. It's not necessarily about the person who is getting dogpiled -- if that is part of it. It's that there is a tension under the surface, and the person has said just the right thing to cause an eruption.

We had a guy and his wife a while back who were truly into male superiority -- not just as gender play -- but as a way of life. I felt bad for them in that they were basically run off the site. I don't mean moderated. I don't recall that they were. I imagine so. I don't recall. In any case, they had few allies. Theirs was an extreme position, and it received an extreme reaction. But some of the intensity wasn't about them. It was about the fact that there is a milder form of their belief among us that is supported and practiced fairly commonly. The extreme version looked pretty ugly, and most people were shocked. But a lot of the energy behind the reaction was because we do have a "lite" version of that in our midst. I think the people who find it disturbing were ready to react. And the folks who actually had something in common with them were looking for a way of distancing themselves from that unabashed version of their gender dynamics. So the couple couldn't win.

I think they -- the couple -- were shocked by the reaction. I don't think they saw themselves as that different from many others here. (I don't know this. I am surmising.) Point is that it was a line this community drew. It was less about who these two people were as individuals -- or about anybody's communication style -- than it was that this was an issue that the community was ready to react to. And react we did.

[imperfect_cupcake]

"I, too, am usually the aggressor and end up attracting a type that doesn't work with my dynamic. I am so not coy. I'm either unable to speak or I just come out with whatever. There's never a middle ground for me."

Right?!? Ugh. Either my personality falls on the floor and smashes into 500,000 pieces and to cover that I go to "aloof" and quietly smiling (yeah. That doesn't work. That says "not interested and polite") or I'm making rude jokes, swearing and telling stories about when I cracked my skull on a rock ha!ha!ha! So when i got out of the water, I had peeled the skin off my scalp and down the front of my face, blood pouring down my face, the German dyke I was trying to impress actually screamed and when first aide came running over she asked me how I felt so I said "sexy." Ha!ha!
Them: horrified stare.
My thought: OK that's been cremated. Ah well. Maybe I should piss off... I've upset a gentile sort that likes bunnies and kittens and meditating with the spirit of the dirt. There is no way this would work if she finds that horrific instead of amusing.

But Martina is right. Some issues people deal with so often, and its such an undercurrent that someones comment may be the last straw on that for the week. And they lose it when they had been patient 35 times before. I'm very guilty of this. Especially around certain things with "not butch enough" because so many of my exes have worn make up ( usually a bit of eyeliner for that punk rock look) and have never been camping (hello, majour European mega cities, its not easy unless to have transport and money) nor fished or chopped wood or been in true darkness and they don't fix stuff- you call the repair people to do it. Who can afford the time/space/tools and training??? Not unless they grew up elsewhere in the countryside and moved to London/Paris/Madrid/Amsterdam. They dress incredibly well for what they can afford (sewing and altering mens clothes from second hand shops to fit properly) and going out to socialise - its important to peacock and look great.

So when I hear judgments coming from femmes about not butch enough" it irritates me because it shows how very tiny their experience of the world is, and how they are assuming masculinity is American Woodcutter all over the globe. With american dating culture rituals. People made jokes in London about femmes who only understood "American Butch" because its small minded and insulting to a lot of butches who are urban and not into that kind of stuff. So when I hear that complaint I feel the worth of all of my partners, who are very Cary Grant style, have a sense of grace that old film stars have... Going down the shitter cause they don't fit a Midwestern US Ideal of manhood... And once again anything seen as "unmasculine" to their locality ... And why a lot of my exes hate the term "masculine" female... Masculine = what men do in the US and there fore the ruler that butch women are held up to in order to qualify.
See? I'm ranting already. And nobody has set me off. You should see what happens when someone does. Occasionally my dates would do it on purpose just to "watch me fly" and then try and get frisky and see if they could make me laugh and calm me down enough for a shag.
Fuck knows what that's about.
Anyway bla blah...
It could be a long term pet chip on their shoulder, like mine. That and femmes being an amorphous Borg that are all similar and thus should all be treated the same formulaic way in romance or sexually or in an argument or bah! Pisses me off.
So yeah sometimes people like me have touch paper issues with things we deal with too much. And have kinda stopped caring about the feelings of people who say them. I'll totally own that.

Ironically, I'm an amazing negotiator for complaints and governance in hospitals when there has been an epic fuck up. But then I'm paid to deal with it.
I also have patience for things other people do not in term of explaining. Toughy and heart have epic amounts of patience. Bless em. But they aren't coddling either.

[Daktari]

I rarely give my real opinion on anything heavy on this or any other site; well, especially this site because I'm not active on any others nowadays.

Yassee, I'm a Brit, have ya noticed? :cheesy: ...and there are so many cultural differences in how we live and express ourselves that it's just safer to keep schtum and stick to the fluffy threads most of the time. I do make forays in the more sexual threads from time to time; although sometimes speaking in those threads can be fraught with the risk of judgement from others, that's mainly in my head I reckon but it still stops me saying some things.
Like HB I'm super open about sex, sexuality and my enjoyment of it, however I keep that for real life, rather than these fora generally.

I have observed the dog-piling both here and on the one you lot call the dash site and it's not pretty. I've also seen it and been part of one particularly notable dog-pile on a UK site - I left it shortly after. In that instance we were backing up the site 'owner' from a vengeful ex and hys easily led (international) friend.

I'm one opinionated dood and despite being a wordsmith, oft times find myself without the words to 'defend' such opinions and to be totally honest, also sometimes lack the depth & breadth of knowledge about a given subject. Under 'pressure' I'm reduced to a babbling idiot. :| I like to learn though and tend to feel uncomfortable asking the questions here because 'do the work yourself' is meaningless when unaware of the work necessary to 'get upto speed' with the rest.
In real life, face to face, when intention and tone is more easily ascertained, I'll put forward said opinions and be prepared to back up what I think and also learn from others.

A couple of sites I've been part of have 'pet academics' that come in to blind everyone with academic writing when all hell has broken loose about a given subject ...this usually calms or shuts down a heated conversation because most participants can't debate on phd levels.

As a newcomer to an international site it took a long time to carve my own little niche and feel comfortable posting, even in the fluffy threads.

Bit of a mish mash of unfinished thoughts there I'm afraid, but hey, tha's how I roll on a Thursday morning.

[Nic]

I rarely give my real opinion on anything heavy on this or any other site; well, especially this site because I'm not active on any others nowadays.

Yassee, I'm a Brit, have ya noticed? :cheesy: ...and there are so many cultural differences in how we live and express ourselves that it's just safer to keep schtum and stick to the fluffy threads most of the time. I do make forays in the more sexual threads from time to time; although sometimes speaking in those threads can be fraught with the risk of judgement from others, that's mainly in my head I reckon but it still stops me saying some things.
Like HB I'm super open about sex, sexuality and my enjoyment of it, however I keep that for real life, rather than these fora generally.

I have observed the dog-piling both here and on the one you lot call the dash site and it's not pretty. I've also seen it and been part of one particularly notable dog-pile on a UK site - I left it shortly after. In that instance we were backing up the site 'owner' from a vengeful ex and hys easily led (international) friend.

I'm one opinionated dood and despite being a wordsmith, oft times find myself without the words to 'defend' such opinions and to be totally honest, also sometimes lack the depth & breadth of knowledge about a given subject. Under 'pressure' I'm reduced to a babbling idiot. :| I like to learn though and tend to feel uncomfortable asking the questions here because 'do the work yourself' is meaningless when unaware of the work necessary to 'get upto speed' with the rest.
In real life, face to face, when intention and tone is more easily ascertained, I'll put forward said opinions and be prepared to back up what I think and also learn from others.

A couple of sites I've been part of have 'pet academics' that come in to blind everyone with academic writing when all hell has broken loose about a given subject ...this usually calms or shuts down a heated conversation because most participants can't debate on phd levels.

As a newcomer to an international site it took a long time to carve my own little niche and feel comfortable posting, even in the fluffy threads.

Bit of a mish mash of unfinished thoughts there I'm afraid, but hey, tha's how I roll on a Thursday morning.

Feel a bit of this myself. "Do the work" is fair enough IF you know what the work is in the first place. Being a newbie and seeing an (IMO) over reaction to naïveté or honest ignorance has changed my mind about posting couple of times. Probably better off limiting myself to reading anyway. Doesn't come with the same opportunities to carry my ass in my hands as posting does. Don't mind being smacked when I'm being a brick. Don't appreciate being smacked WITH a brick either, especially when my question is a legitimate search for info or honest ignorance. Intentions pave a lot of roads, not just the one to hell. Lots of well intentioned people say-do stupid crap. Some get on my nerves because they're lazy. Rest are just clueless. Speaking up in either case is well and good until education turns into a display of superiority. Being an ass won't improve anything. Think we speak up because we want change. I'm not getting anywhere if I open the dialogue by driving a wedge between me and the person I'm trying reach. Not advocating laying down in the face of shitty behavior-comments. But generally what I dish out is what I can expect back. Think it's normal for people to get bristley when someone (or a bunch of someones) comes at them with a 2x4. The surprise some people express over defensivness in others feels disingenuous IMO. Who hasn't been defensive? We all know how we get there. I know what response I'll get if I choose the "bend over bitch" route to slapping someone down versus the "foreplay first" path. Hypocritical to say I wouldn't be ruffled if someone came on, guns ablazing, to tell me how wrong I am about something. If someone says "Hey listen Nic..." I'm listening immediately. Takes me longer if I get the "Hey Moron" opener.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think its been suggested more than once that there is a newbie "dumb question" thread.

I made one for another board, sort of an FAQ, for the identity section. I linked commonly asked questions to threads that addressed them and invited people to ask questions about identity if they were new to the concept, in that thread, so if people felt like having the patience to answer something they've answered 9 squillion times before, they could go in and do so.
And if anyone asked a FAQ in a thread, it was decided that instead of people groaning and rolling their eyes and pretending to cut their wrists open, they would paste the link.

I got so sick of one question in particular because it was such a complicated answer I copied and pasted my answer the last time I did it into the FAQ. I then would just copy and paste the four paragraphs from the FAQ into the thread someone was asking in. Because lots of times faced with the FAQ thread, people would suddenly not want to ask anymore.

Or read.

But I suppose that's like when you go to a company and you wanna talk to someone and they send you to the FAQ section, to look for the answer, you just drop it.

I have been reading a blog about this gal that post pictures of men spreading their legs super wide on crowded transit and preventing people from sitting. She got asked about six questions over and over by blokes. So she finally set up an FAQ to answer those questions. Needless to say lots of dudes don't bother and just ask because they don't want an answer, they want to make a point.

Which it can feel like sometimes to other questions. I'm sure ALL of you have questions that make you mental. Because you just want it printed on a card so you don't have to answer it again, get the same arguments again and you just lose the will to live I t the middle of the conversation. This where in person I start miming hair Kari and then hanging myself with my own intestines. Which is t helpful.

But! Maybe a newbie FAQ thread that gets "stuck" to the top of a.section so its easy to find?

Anyone? And the rule is if you go in there and answer, you can't answer with your "you cocksock!" Reaction at the ready.

What do people think?

[thedivahrrrself]

Oh, it has happened. And more than once. And "Southern Pride" is NOT like any other geographic or regional pride. That phrase is code for a lot of ideas that come under white racist ideology. In my experience, Southerners who do NOT intend to express racist ideology do not use that phrase much. At least not Southerners I have known.

Anyway, the conversation has been had, more than once.

Oh, I don't doubt that it happened. And I'm sure any piling was well-deserved. I just haven't personally read those threads.

[Cin]

There are definitely issues that are difficult for me to remain calm when discussing. A classist ideology, for example, really sets me off. It’s personal and brings up all kinds of stuff for me. It is totally my issue, and I get that, but that’s my life experience and how I react because of it is not likely to change.

Part of this ideology I often see is equating education with intelligence. This is short sighted in my opinion, not to mention elitist. But in all fairness, of course that would trigger me since I don’t have an education, money or a well paying job. But my issue or not, it’s still a shitty ideology. And a person doesn’t need any education to value critical thinking, they might not necessarily name it that, but they get it and use it, just as much, maybe more, certainly more honestly, than many so called intellectuals. Nobody had to teach me to be logical or reflective or to think both concretely and abstractly. Just like nobody had to teach me to be hypervigilant. They all gave me an edge and upped the odds of my survival.

My speaking voice is a stereotype in itself and causes people to underestimate me. There are a plethora of stuff like that, along with a certain social ineptitude that being raised by wolfs will leave you with, that has made it even more difficult to climb out of the hole I was born into and that I made even deeper by a succession of wrong choices. So when I find someone is judging the value of a human being using financial worth and earning potential as the criteria, I have been known to lose it. I don’t think it’s fair to use that kind of criteria because we all didn’t start this life off from the same socio economic position, we all didn’t have the same opportunities for advancement.

There is a certain kind of folk lore, mostly amongst the advantaged, centered on how poor and working class people, even those from the most horrendous family situations can, if they just apply themselves, rise above their circumstances and become successful. While that is certainly possible in theory, in practice it doesn’t work, the idea itself lacks both honesty and empathy and only succeeds to place the burden of and the result from poverty and an abusive childhood squarely on the shoulders of the victim. Blame the victim ideology also pisses me off. There is a privileged belief that cream rises to the top and anyone of value will be capable of picking themselves up by their bootstraps and becoming successful. Framed within this ideology, success is defined as financial. I think people like me are immensely successful if we are still standing when the smoke clears and can pass muster as a functional human being. Big kudos for that I think, don’t be so sure you could have done it.

I understand everybody gets to choose who they want around them and they have the right to judge the less fortunate as losers who lack motivation and drive and just simply eliminate poor people as potential friends and lovers if they desire. I just think it’s dumb. And it pisses me off. But even with an issue like this, an issue that is clearly a trigger for me, I can step back before I attack and ask myself what I want from the exchange I am about to enter into. Do I just want the satisfaction of telling the person what I think of their classist attitude or do I want the opportunity of planting a seed of doubt in their hearts and in their minds? I might not get the person to look at their beliefs and reevaluate them regardless of how I handle the situation, but I surely won’t even get a chance if I just tell them they are elitist assholes. Well nothing beyond allowing myself to indulge in something that is shallow but satisfying. Like making an allowance for the empty calories in chocolate because it tastes good. But too much indulging of any kind isn’t good for the spirit. And I find it much easier to be civil, even to those whose personal beliefs offend me deeply, if I think of this attempt to change someone’s opinion as something I am doing to honor myself as well as others like me. If I make it more about doing it for me it’s easier to take the high road.

I find asking myself what I want works in every situation in which I am going to confront someone. I think about what I want to achieve with the interaction. Do I want to open up a dialogue or do I want to shut down any opportunity for productive conversation? Hopefully I will choose dialogue, even though sometimes it feels like it would be more satisfying and I know it would take less energy (which mostly ends up as just so much wasted hot air) to just tell the person to go fuck themselves. Hard.

I just meant to say enough to show how difficult this issue is for me. And to talk about the things I tell myself so I can still try to have a meaningful conversation with someone who holds a classist ideology. That was really the point of all this. What i say to get it up to have a civil conversation with someone who pushes all my buttons.

[Cin]

I'm one opinionated dood and despite being a wordsmith, oft times find myself without the words to 'defend' such opinions and to be totally honest, also sometimes lack the depth & breadth of knowledge about a given subject. Under 'pressure' I'm reduced to a babbling idiot. :| I like to learn though and tend to feel uncomfortable asking the questions here because 'do the work yourself' is meaningless when unaware of the work necessary to 'get upto speed' with the rest.


I don't care to tell people to do the work. I don't believe I have ever done that. Even times when I think to myself, if you really just wanted to know where something comes from why don't you just google it? I figure if I posted it, it's my responsibility to post the source.

But I would never even think "do the work" when someone is asking a question here. I figure it's one of the things that we need to do for each other. It's one of the very best things we can give. I get that sometimes it's tiring to keep rehashing stuff. And there is so much valuable stuff stored on the data base that it is an excellent idea to read the old threads. But just reading is so academic and stark. And it isn't a lot of people's cuppa. So to me it isn't that helpful to tell people to do the work or to read the old threads. Not exclusively that's for sure. I mean you might want to let them know about the resources that are available but not make them feel like that is all that is available to them. And I think that thread idea HB suggested might work really well.

[Cin]

To me humor is difficult and it often does not translate well on a public forum. I tend to shy away from using it, especially since I have a rather quirky sense of humor period. I’m always afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Or that what I think is funny is really inappropriate or offensive and will not be funny to others. I have enough trouble with my sense of humor offline. I am always being told I am too sarcastic. But even when it’s not about sarcasm, which I understand is tough because a lot of people don’t care for it, I still find myself having to explain why something is funny or not funny. I often find something funny that others don’t and vice versa. And sometimes I will be prompted to do something that in the moment I think is mildly humorous and appropriate only to discover too late that others vehemently disagree.

A good example is what I like to refer to as “the luxury apartment incident” and what my wife likes to refer to as “the what the hell is wrong with you incident”. They built these luxury apartments in Cote St Luc a town near Montreal, which to me is really part of Montreal, but it’s not considered to be, whatever, that’s besides the point. But anyway my wife wanted to go have a look at the apartment building and talk to someone about renting there. She thought that would be fun. I thought it would be more enjoyable to walk over hot coals or cut a piece of bamboo into strips and stick them under my finger nails but I love to indulge my wife so off we went.

I didn’t understand why she wanted to waste time looking at a place where we could never ever afford to live, but then I don’t get the concept of window shopping either so. Anyway she told me to let her do the talking. When we pulled into the parking lot she repeated that I should refrain from talking and let her handle this outing. I said sure. So during the conversation with the apartment manager, who kept looking at me like I was the human equivalent of shit on his shoe, I asked if they allowed pets. My wife glared at me because I wasn’t supposed to talk. I forgot. Anyway the guy turned his shoe shit gaze on me and said only cats and small dogs. I asked how they came up with the criteria to distinguish small from medium. I don’t remember his answer because my wife kicked me. Anyway he must have thought I looked dubious because he launched into a speech about the importance of small dogs to lonely women, especially the elderly. And how they are not a problem for anyone. Now don’t ask me why I did this because really I’m not clear on my reasoning. I began to bark. I am very good at sounds. I do animals well, but really sounds in general are my forte. So I launched into my impression of a pack of dogs barking. I always thought it was really an impressive talent. Don’t know why I think that because really no one has ever been impressed. And true to form no one was. But anyway we left shortly after that and my wife did not get to actually see an apartment. She was rather pissed and kept asking what part of don’t talk did I not understand. I was like okay I’ll give you that, but you never said anything about barking.

I often find the exact wrong moment to be funny. It's a talent really. I felt myself falling into that trap on the gun control thread and managed, just barely and in the nick of time, to reign myself in. It's big fun for me to run off on one my tangents yukking up a inappropriate storm, but other people get offended and I hear my asshat but somewhat prophetic aunt telling me how it's all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out. I'm best leaving the humor to the professionals.

[Daktari]

I don't care to tell people to do the work. I don't believe I have ever done that. Even times when I think to myself, if you really just wanted to know where something comes from why don't you just google it? I figure if I posted it, it's my responsibility to post the source.
*snip*

As you quoted my post can you show me where I claimed you personally say such things?

[Cin]

As you quoted my post can you show me where I claimed you personally say such things?



I never imagined you were talking to me personally. I assumed you were bringing up a subject for discussion. I was discussing. I don’t tell people to do the work. Not that you said I did. I just volunteered that information. I was saying I don’t think it’s the best way to be helpful. Although sometimes it’s crazy making to keep having the same discussions over and over. Sometimes I think I just can’t get into this again. But then someone else manages to do it and often before I know it there is a new wrinkle to an old subject that I can sink my teeth into.

And I quoted you as a jumping off point to continue the discussion about it. I thought you were talking about it already. I certainly didn't feel like you were talking to me. I rarely think anything is about me and I'm usually right.

I apologize if my wording felt accusatory. I really did not mean it that way.

[Martina]

Now don’t ask me why I did this because really I’m not clear on my reasoning. I began to bark. I am very good at sounds. I do animals well, but really sounds in general are my forte. So I launched into my impression of a pack of dogs barking. I always thought it was really an impressive talent. Don’t know why I think that because really no one has ever been impressed. And true to form no one was. But anyway we left shortly after that and my wife did not get to actually see an apartment.

OMG, I laughed out loud at work. Your fault. LOL!

[Cin]

OMG, I laughed out loud at work. Your fault. LOL!

LOL, sorry!

Now if only my wife could see the humor in it.

[DapperButch]

I think its been suggested more than once that there is a newbie "dumb question" thread.

I made one for another board, sort of an FAQ, for the identity section. I linked commonly asked questions to threads that addressed them and invited people to ask questions about identity if they were new to the concept, in that thread, so if people felt like having the patience to answer something they've answered 9 squillion times before, they could go in and do so.
And if anyone asked a FAQ in a thread, it was decided that instead of people groaning and rolling their eyes and pretending to cut their wrists open, they would paste the link.

I got so sick of one question in particular because it was such a complicated answer I copied and pasted my answer the last time I did it into the FAQ. I then would just copy and paste the four paragraphs from the FAQ into the thread someone was asking in. Because lots of times faced with the FAQ thread, people would suddenly not want to ask anymore.

Or read.

But I suppose that's like when you go to a company and you wanna talk to someone and they send you to the FAQ section, to look for the answer, you just drop it.

I have been reading a blog about this gal that post pictures of men spreading their legs super wide on crowded transit and preventing people from sitting. She got asked about six questions over and over by blokes. So she finally set up an FAQ to answer those questions. Needless to say lots of dudes don't bother and just ask because they don't want an answer, they want to make a point.

Which it can feel like sometimes to other questions. I'm sure ALL of you have questions that make you mental. Because you just want it printed on a card so you don't have to answer it again, get the same arguments again and you just lose the will to live I t the middle of the conversation. This where in person I start miming hair Kari and then hanging myself with my own intestines. Which is t helpful.

But! Maybe a newbie FAQ thread that gets "stuck" to the top of a.section so its easy to find?

Anyone? And the rule is if you go in there and answer, you can't answer with your "you cocksock!" Reaction at the ready.

What do people think?

I like the idea a lot. The problem I see is that I don't think there are many threads on here where any gender and identity stuff was pulled apart, discussed, and analyzed. It was all on the dash site. Meaning, a FAQ thread would be hard to do if you wanted to answer the question through links to threads.

It would be grand if someone just wrote a FAQ thread, but that is a hell of a lot of work.

[julieisafemme]

Thank you Miss Tick for talking about the difference between intelligence and education. I am intelligent but do not have a graduate degree. Sometimes the parsing or discourse goes over my head.

As far as "doing the work" we could have a Doing The Work thread and people can post links to the work they have done and give their opinions on the sources. I was told a long time ago to do the work on racism and white privilege. I was told to look at Tim Wise's work. I read his books, subscribed to his FB page and heard him speak. Some of his stuff is very helpful for white people and some of it was not. I find Shakti Butler's work much more helpful as a white person.

We went to a conference recently and the panelists in one workshop talked a lot about "the work". One young woman stood up and asked "what is the work"? It was an excellent question and a lot of good discussion came out of that. There is only so much a thread can do, at least for me. Sometimes I feel like threads and the reading I do outside of it and the discussions I have in real time are my graduate school education. Might be lacking for sure but it is free!

[Girl_On_Fire]

New folk end up accidentally -- or not -- swatting a beehive now and then -- meaning one of our simmering issues. And then all hell breaks loose. It's not necessarily about the person who is getting dogpiled -- if that is part of it. It's that there is a tension under the surface, and the person has said just the right thing to cause an eruption.

-- than it was that this was an issue that the community was ready to react to. And react we did.

YES!! That's what it is that I couldn't put into words. This underlying tension that's just waiting for the right trigger to cause an explosion. Thank you!

[girl_dee]

Also, sometimes there is tension from personal history amongst the posters, and although this NEVER happens here ( :| ), people piling in may have something going on that no one else knows about. You may not believe this here but there are MANY exes amongst the group!

Once, very long ago, i was just talking with someone, being flirty and playful in the threads. They had an ex that i had no idea about or cared about. i was new. i started posting. This ex, and her entire entourage confronted me on every post, very creatively, and i had no idea why. They new what they were doing in causing a ruckus. i don't scare so easily, and it continued....and finally it was explained to me what was happening.

When they got caught, they were warned to stop. They didn't. They were banned, all of them.

THEN they claimed that they bullied, harassed, singled out, picked on and all kids of other fun stuff by the admins and even ME, who had never had a direct exchange with any of them.

:|

[Girl_On_Fire]

Also, sometimes there is tension from personal history amongst the posters, and although this NEVER happens here ( :| ), people piling in may have something going on that no one else knows about. You may not believe this here but there are MANY exes amongst the group!

Once, very long ago, i was just talking with someone, being flirty and playful in the threads. They had an ex that i had no idea about or cared about. i was new. i started posting. This ex, and her entire entourage confronted me on every post, very creatively, and i had no idea why. They new what they were doing in causing a ruckus. i don't scare so easily, and it continued....and finally it was explained to me what was happening.

When they got caught, they were warned to stop. They didn't. They were banned, all of them.

THEN they claimed that they bullied, harassed, singled out, picked on and all kids of other fun stuff by the admins and even ME, who had never had a direct exchange with any of them.

:|

Been there...in a manner of speaking.