Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[Medusa]

So, I'm curious about something.

Ive had this discussion with a lot of my girlfriends over the years and this even came up on the Dash site a few times way back when.

Do you think that Femmes, Butches, Transguys, and Transwomen build friendships differently?

Namely, I remember way back in the day that Daddy Rhon made a comment about how Butches were "little islands unto themselves" when it came to friendships.

I'll put a poll up to see if we can tease this out a little better but Im curious as to what your perceptions are around how we build friendships. Maybe there truly are no differences in how we do it with relation to gender?

For example, do you feel like Femmes generally connect with their girlfriends more often through text or phone? Do Butches really "hate" the phone in general (talking tongue in cheek here)?

Give me a few minutes for the poll and I'll come back with more thoughts...


POLL ALLOWS FOR MULTIPLE SELECTIONS!

[Julie]

I have noticed throughout the years and the differences between my butch partners and myself. I find it necessary to connect with my girls. It feeds my soul and allows *us* to process and share moments in our lives. It also gives us the space to laugh, cry and scream with one another. I have noticed that my partners (present and past) do not have these same type of relationships.

For example a conversation between Dreamer and I.

Dreamer - So darling did you talk to *** today?
Julie - Yes baby, we talked and I also talked to *** and ***.
Julie - What about you? Have you connected with ***
Dreamer - No, I really need to do that!

Why is that?

For me, and it doesn't have to be daily - but I thrive on those relationships I have developed with my femme sisters. I share my day with them. I also share my day with Dreamer, but our conversations are different. I wish Dreamer would have those same type of relationships with other butches that I have with Femme's. I think it's really healthy to have other people to process with or laugh with, other than your partner.

Just my thoughts!

[Jar]

I have a variety of friends ... butches, FTMs, femmes and straight friends. I think they're all a little different when I think about it. I tend to be a good listener to my femme friends because I think they talk things out more than my other friends and the talks seem to a more intimate. If there's something that makes me sad, I'll talk to a femme friend but when I'm angry I'll probably talk to a butch/FTM friend.

With my butch and FTM friends it's more like "hey dude! How you doing?" and we talk about stuff, but not feelings, emotions .... etc. I love my straight friends but I don't talk about my personal life in much detail so having friends in this community is really important to me.

As for the telephone, I can talk all day on my cell but when I'm home I hate the phone (well, there are exceptions :))

I wouldn't really describe myself as an "island". Though I do tend to work out problems on my own or make decisions on my own without reaching out, I do think I'm pretty much an open book. I think communication is key to any relationship, be it friendship or a romantic relationship.

I'll probably be back after I think about it more but that's my first take on it ......

[Kelt]

This looks really interesting, *subscribing*. Is this poll one or multiple answers?

[Medusa]

This looks really interesting, *subscribing*. Is this poll one or multiple answers?

You can pick multiple answers!!

[Linus]

For me friendship is one of those greatly desired things but often fleeting. I have a few friends from high school that I could meet up today and continue conversations we started ages ago. But we don't talk regularly (unless Facebook discussions count). I think our social interactions have changed a lot and phone conversations aren't the only common mechanism (at least not for me).

Part of this is probably from my lack of creating strong bonds with people as a teenager (I never had a friend, really, until I was 17 or thereabouts -- and those friends I still have today but talk via facebook and when I travel there).

Also, I'd point out that transpersons come in a variety of flavours (much like Butch and Femme do) but know that the poll options are limited and we're just too varied a bunch to do the whole poll idea full justice.

[Cin]

I don't like talking on the phone. I call my mother once a week that's enough. I like doing stuff with my friends. That's what friends are for. At least for me. If somebody has a problem or needs to talk then of course I'm there for that. And if I have a problem and I need an ear I will talk to someone I trust. But generally speaking I don't want to just chat. At least not JUST chat. Conversation in the course of doing something else absolutely. But just talk for the sake of talking not my thing. Probably a good thing too, because I'm terrible at just talking. I tend to talk about stuff that bores people. Then their eyes glaze over and I feel guilty. But if I have to listen to conversations about so and so and his mother's aunt's cousin's uncle who cheats on his wife and the wife knows and puts up with it and the like for too long I will slump to the ground and curl in a ball. I'm a terrible conversationalist. I missed out on that gene. Thankfully I like doing stuff so I can be somewhat useful as friend.

[Medusa]

Also, I'd point out that transpersons come in a variety of flavours (much like Butch and Femme do) but know that the poll options are limited and we're just too varied a bunch to do the whole poll idea full justice.


Agreed! I was trying to figure out a way to make space for all the various flavors of Butch, Femme, and Trans folks and it was becoming a mess. Hope folks will forgive the clunky poll!!

[Medusa]

I don't like talking on the phone. I call my mother once a week that's enough. I like doing stuff with my friends. That's what friends are for. At least for me. If somebody has a problem or needs to talk then of course I'm there for that. And if I have a problem and I need an ear I will talk to someone I trust. But generally speaking I don't want to just chat. At least not JUST chat. Conversation in the course of doing something else absolutely. But just talk for the sake of talking not my thing. Probably a good thing too, because I'm terrible at just talking. I tend to talk about stuff that bores people. Then their eyes glaze over and I feel guilty. But if I have to listen to conversations about so and so and his mother's aunt's cousin's uncle who cheats on his wife and the wife knows and puts up with it and the like for too long I will slump to the ground and curl in a ball. I'm a terrible conversationalist. I missed out on that gene. Thankfully I like doing stuff so I can be somewhat useful as friend.


You bring up a thought for me, Miss Tick!

I've noticed that my conversations with my girlfriends have really evolved over the years with regard to what it is we talk most about.

In my very early 20s, I tended to have friends where we ended up talking about people we knew, events, etc.

Now in my later years, most of the conversations I have with my closest Femme friends end up being about concepts. We process relationship stuff, gender stuff, our histories as women, politics, even spirituality. Don't get me wrong, we do enjoy the occasional foray into food and crafting ;)

[Sparkle]

As to friendships and gender identity...

I'm reluctant to make any generalizations about the ways in which Butches/Femmes/Transfolks value, build or maintain friendships because I believe our differences (as regards relationship building) fall less along gender lines and more along personality/character trait lines.

But I'm really interested to read other peoples opinions and experiences.

I'm a Femme and I have a lot of friends dotted all over the world and I have a small group of close friends with whom I bare my soul, also dotted all over the world.

The level of closeness of my friendships is not a direct corollary to geographic nearness. A couple of my closest friends live far-far-away and a couple live right here in town.

I tend to keep in touch with my people who are far away via social media, email and occasional video chats; with those people I know that even though we don't see each other very often, our connection is strong. I am indebted to the WWW for giving me the tools to stay close to those people.

When I need to talk about something, or want to be social, I prefer to do it in person with my closest people and I'm fortunate enough to have close people who live locally, so it's easy to do that.

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This feeling of time being fleeting has also changed the way I view my friendships.

I have more delineated circles of relationships now...(than I used to)

My core people (my partner, my siblings, my best friends) this is a pretty small group - 10 or less people.

And then concentric circles that include friends, family members, colleagues that I feel more or less connected to.

I choose to invest my time and love and support and energy in that core circle of people --- I still like a lot of other people and consider them friends but I don't invest as much in our relationships as I might have in the past.

[Little Fish]

Medusa, I think you raise an interesting topic here--I know I've had the same conversation with both butch and femme friends over the years. While I don't have a lot of time right now, I'll share a few quick thoughts:

-all but two of my queer/gay friends are femme or *not* butch--and those two are both hetero-identified trans men

-I'd like more butch friends but find connecting with them (literally, as in actually *finding* them) challenging (are we *that* rare??!)

-this same conversation came up between spritzerj and myself--she put it best I think..when explaining why butches seem to have more femme friends and vice versa she said, "even in our platonic friendships, the pairing of our butch and femme energies underscore the complimentary nature and goodness of our fit"...that really resonated with me

-my concern for butches...do we become we socially isolated in the same way hetero males do when they marry? I watch over and over how husbands lose their friends after they marry women--anyone have this concern?

Good poll Medusa, keep us posted--thank you

[Blaze]

Hmm, got me to thinking too Medusa, Don't know if that's a good thing or bad ~chuckles~.
Younger years, All my friends were Femme's and I was the one they came a calling to work out things, fix things and just hang out with... My 3 butch friends were the one's I hung out with to talk shop, sports, and woman....

Thirty somethings were, still my 3 close butch friends, and the hand full of Femme's that counted on me to listen and fix things but not so much hang out anymore because they had partners.

Once I moved from home, I met some friends, but don't keep in touch like I should, kinda hermit myself is how I look at it. Email some of Island friends but I think I changed and moved on or they changed, just ain't figured it out and probably won't put much effort into figuring it out either.

Now... My socializing is work friends and I keep it at work... Yes I am a HERMIT lol No Island, jus a Hermit.

I am sociable when around people but I like quiet, and I like alone time because I have to act happy and giddy at work all day, so when I get home I leave the act outside and debrief and relax....

I am looking forward to the tally! Thank you for making this thread as it has made me realize that I do need to come back to society as I always tend to disappear...

[Cin]

It’s funny when I first responded in this thread I totally wasn’t thinking about my response in terms of gender nor my friends in terms of gender either. Reexamining I see that I have not had many butch friends over the years. Some femmes, but most of my friends have been hetero men or women. My two best friends in the world for years were a straight guy and a straight woman. My longest friendship is with a straight woman who I’ve been friends with since we were 11. Now that we live in different countries the friendship isn’t like it was but it’s solid and has proved its ability to stand the test of time.

I don’t think the types of conversations I engage in have changed over the years. I never was much of a conversationalist. I mean I’ll talk your ear off on a subject I’m interested in but that’s not a conversation. It seems I either talk or I listen. There are very few people in my life who have the same conversational interests that I do. There are some and I cherish my conversations with them. But there are a lot of different pieces that need to fit to make a friendship. Conversational compatibility is only one part. And for me not that big of one. Common interests in activities is an important aspect, a sense of humor, an inherent kindness and compassion, a non judgmental outlook and then there is this intangible sensuality that I look at as platonic attraction.

I'm not sure if how I do friendships has much to do with my gender. I don't know if my gender has anything to do with the choices i make about my friends. But I have a way of looking at the world that is reminiscent of a social scientist, it was probably my calling and had I had a different kind of life it might be my career. This is the kind of thing I am curious about. I am fascinated by all aspects and ways of examining the possible causes and effects of stuff. So I will watch this thread with interest.

[Soft*Silver]

it is actually comforting to see that I am not the only femme who hates talking on the phone. I go to great lengths now to avoid it. I even have a message on my shop phone that I will not answer the phone and that they can leave a message and I will text them the answer. At first my customers thought this a bit odd (and it is) but they find other things about me that they like and those weigh in more than the phone oddity.

I have gone thru bouts of few friends, but I see those as my difficult times. I am best when I am part of a collective of familiar people. I have some long term friendships (one has been my best friend since the first day of first grade. We celebrated our 50th year anniversary this year!) and some very deep and rich friendships that have just started a little over a year ago.

I am not a chatterer too! I dont do small talk. I like silence and being able to be with my friends as we focus on something together, from women's issues, to horses, to fashion, to cooking and baking, to spirituality.

Most of my friends are female. Most are straight. Or bi. A few are lesbian. Several are transgendered or transsexual. I can do easy friendships with femmes but I tend to get initially, stupidly stuttery and flirtatious with butch friends.I dont do that with men, trans or otherwise. Something about butches that just make me feel like a teenager again...if someone is patient, and waits out my ackwardness and actualy embarassment over this, I can develop deep friendships because this stage does end.

I have some wonderful friendships with gay males. Dont cal me a fag hag tho. Its not that kind of friendship.

my best of all friends are my animals tho...truthfully. More loyalty and love than i can get from any person...

[Kobi]

I am not sure how to answer this because I am one of those people who sees femme, butch, trans as id's not genders.

I am butch and female. I see my friendship style as female in origin not butch inspired. My closest relationships are with femmes, female id people, and straight women. The style is more intimate and communication focused.

My buddies are male id, straight male, gay male and our friendships are more about stuff and activities.

As for changes over the years, I chalk them up to life stages. Way back when it was about career/family, and now it is about retirement, parenting became parenting your parents, accumulation of stuff has become simplicity, form and function has been replaced with meaning.

As for the mode of communication, I prefer the personal stuff i.e. face to face, or cam to cam, or telephone. I am less happy with typing and am not fond of texting.

[Nat]

Awesome thread idea :) subscribed! Was just discussing this topic today with a butch friend. I guess more specifically if butches tended to possibly be more likely to be loners than femmes. And why local b/f community is so small.

[Gráinne]

I really hope I don't get my head taken off for this. I am absolutely not equating Butch=male or Femme=female.

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

[Dreamer]

I have read this thread and what Julie had to say about our conversations, and she is right, I will ask her each day who she has spoken to and how they are doing and yes when she asks me the same question I will usually respond with No I have not but I should get onto that. I have sat here going through my mind why I do not tend to call people and many thoughts have gone through it.

For me I have a few people I would call close friends. When I was living in San Francisco we would get together and I had an amazing time just hanging out, getting to know and having fun with them. When I had to leave and come back to Australia it was like coming back to another world, San Francisco was the first place I could truly be who I was, I let the butch out and I felt alive and finally free to be me. Then when I came back here it was totally different and it was hard, I felt like part of me was left in the States and it was only when I went back to visit or Julie came to me that I felt reconnected to myself.

I did not want to let go of the friendships I had made in the States but due to some personal situations and the fact that I no longer felt that I was doing anything that was worth talking about (at least from my side) I let them slide. I own that and I am sorry that I did, but hopefully that will change once I return.

Most of the friends I made were actually other butches/Ftm’s, I was able to relax around them a lot more and being new to the butch/femme dynamic I must say I was pretty shy around the femmes.
I am really glad that Julie has other femmes that she can talk to, that she can talk to them about anything and that they can help her still feel connected and remind her of who she is, she needs that occasionally.

[pajama]

I'm a hermit. I have lots of acquaintances that I will talk about anything with (because I don't hold much back). But when I am really at odds with myself and need a support system, I would only turn to two, maybe three people.

I HATE...nay LOATHE...talking on a telephone. But I will hold elaborate text conversations with you if you like. I do not require speaking to my friends regularly.

I've never made close friendships. Not when I was straight, not lesbian, not femme, not queer, I just don't make/require close friends. I usually stay in my head. So I don't know that I will help with decyphering the butch/femme friendship dilemma.

But it's been interesting so far.

[Gemme]

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This, this, this!

I too spend a lot of my day on the phone and I don't want to spend a lot of my night on the phone also, even if it's with people I enjoy conversing with. I've also, from work, gotten into the habit of multitasking when I'm on the phone but most folks don't like being on speakerphone (understandably, as I hate it too but I'm not sure if it's a speakerphone issue or a phone issue) and that's the best way to get me for a long conversation. Let me be busy while we talk. Trust me, I'm listening.

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

Social conditioning does play into it, as do personal traits.

I've got male and/or masculine energied friends that talk their feelings and emotions out and express their feelings verbally as well as physically with their friends but they are far in between. I can count them on one hand.

I have one straight ally that I've had in my life since middle school. She's my best friend and will be forever and a day and we always pick up right where we left off like time just dissolved away. She doesn't always understand me like a femme friend would but she's super supportive and as 'there' for me as a mother and stepmother, student, daughter and employee can be there for someone. We communicate best in very long emails due to time constraints on both sides. We say all we need to say at that moment and the other gets the chance to really soak in what is being said and what is being asked of them, because when we communicate, we're asking something of the other person. Whether you get it remains to be seen.

Some of my femme friends are more telephone oriented than I am but most are perfectly content to text and email and play around here until we can see one another in person. Then I get to squish them and soak up their yumminess.

Most of the butches and guys I am friends with here are more along the lines of 'touch and go' or a one line zinger. BAM! Say it/do it, it's done, let's move on. Not bad. Not good. Just quick connections, which is fine with me. If I needed more from any of them, I think that I could get it but that's how we flow.

Like a couple of people have said, I tend to work things out on my own. I like connections but on my own terms. When I need to bounce something off of someone, I have people that I know I could go to and they would offer my very good advice or give me a solid shoulder to lean on.

I have friends. Some really close ones. But not tons. I find the more friends I have, the less I am able to give each of them, so I'd rather give more of myself to less people. It feels more genuine.

[Martina]

I don't have butch friends or femme friends of gay friends or straight friends. I have friends. Gender is irrelevant. I actually have a diverse group of friends. Most of my life, most of my friends have been guys, and most of those straight. But they are as different from one another as it's possible for people to be. What they tend to have in common is that they are decent, kind, and down-to-earth. And they tend to be smart and moderately to very well educated. I don't seek that out, but that's what sticks. I guess that's who I feel most comfortable with.

I have a very close femme friend. I do not interact any differently with her than I do with other friends. We are also very very different as femmes and date very very different kinds of butches. We talk politics, history, work (especially teaching), food, and just about the daily wonders and challenges of life. I talk those things with all my friends, except the one who is on the autism spectrum. He has flat affect and doesn't experience too much wonder (strangely, he is in an artistic profession). But he is funny as hell and incredibly well read (and remembers it all). And we do talk food (both being food addicts).

I don't interact any differently with female friends than I do with male. If people don't like to talk, we're not likely to be friends. And I have certainly found chatty friends of every gender. The three close straight cis-gendered men friends I have are the most feminist people I know -- and it's not affected. It's in the bones. They truly respect women. Good good people. Sane, funny, loving. Wonderful fathers. I don't have to occlude any part of who I am to be around them. If I did, I wouldn't waste time on the friendship.

The whole "femme friend" thing makes me cringe. I get being understood by people who are like you. But I don't think of femmes and butches in terms of the "girls" and the "guys." The ones I like don't really fit into those categories very neatly. And at my age, I am not exploring my own gender identity. I don't need to see others like myself to feel at home with myself. I don't decompress especially in butch-femme company or even in queer company. I do with close friends, many of whom are queer. But not all. I actually don't find that I have a ton in common with people who strongly identify as butch or femme, people for whom it is a primary identifier.

I don't behave differently around one gender than the other. In fact, I have been criticized for that by butches. There is sometimes the expectation that femmes will flirt with and flatter all butches. I am interested romantically and/or sexually in very few people. I do not treat an entire category of people like potential dates. They are not. A very few people are potential dates. Also, I do not need most butches to see ME as someone they'd like to date. How exhausting would that be?

I have a pretty good butch friend. She has more friends than I will ever have. She has a gift for intimacy, I always tell her. She's also beautiful -- and she works at it. She also loves to shop and CARES about clothes. She and I rarely talk about that stuff because I don't care about it, but that is very much part of who she is. She does not isolate or care about sports or vehicles. She is a hot smart butch, and she doesn't let anyone tell her what that should mean to her.

[Julie]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

[Martina]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing.

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am. . . . But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

Yeah, I don't get this. My close close friend who is femme does not "get" me any better than my straight male friend. They both "get" me, the particular person who is me. I have ID'd as femme since the early eighties. I have explored my gender identity as much as most people in our community, although certainly less than many. But, no, I do not think that other femmes live my life just because they are femme. Very likely they do not, in fact. I may ID as femme. But my relationships do not conform enough to a pattern that I can say that other femmes live my life.

HoneyB had a great rant on this once. I am too lazy to go find it. It may not be here anyway.

[Julie]

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

[Martina]

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

[Medusa]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.


Julie-

You pretty much nailed the crux of how I feel about some of my friendships with Femmes. I've never sought out Femmes as friends per se, merely had friendships happen organically (as I feel they should for me) but there is definitely something super sacred about that space that is created between two Femmes. (speaking, of course, from my real-world, real-time, actual lived experience)

You and I have had long discussions about desire that feel almost like a "twin" language. I don't have those kinds of discussions with my straight women friends, my male friends, or my Butch friends. Sometimes because e don't get that part of one another and sometimes because it's not safe space.

For me, the space *is* different with Femmes in friendship. Different in wonderful, powerful ways. And I keep coming back to those spaces over and over because something resonates so hard there. I have the ability to hang out on Facebook or in real-time spaces when I want/seek/am amenable to mixed space (mixed space speaking of genders, id's, ways of being). I come back to the Planet over and over (and have enjoyed spaces like the Planet for years) because there IS difference in these spaces and your random "I Love Cooking" websites. You get that, I know. <3

[Julie]

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

There are no gendered expectations Martina. You create your own expectations based on the box you have created for yourself. If you are uncomfortable using the term "Femme Friends," or Femme Sisters," or "Girlfriends," then those are your choices. I do not begrudge you for not having these relationships and certainly would not shame you for not and most definitely would never cringe at the thought of you having friends with any member of any population, because I respect the relationships of others.

[Medusa]

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring. ;)

[Julie]

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring. ;)

Me too Medusa. I have never felt so wrapped up in love, as I have in the presence of my "girlfriends." and that is not to say, our partners don't make us feel this way - but it is very different and it is very sacred.

[Martina]

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

[Julie]

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.

[Martina]

For example, do you feel like Femmes generally connect with their girlfriends more often through text or phone?


This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

[Medusa]

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.


And I think that we agree that people are allowed to refer to their friends consensually with whatever language those friendships have agreed upon.

That's the amazing thing about how groups of friends or even friendship couples form. Those friends decide between themselves what feels right. Those friends decide what feels honoring and true. I kinda dig that people will gravitate toward one another based on the things they find in common. I have found that a great many of my girlfriends embrace the idea that Femme space is sacred.
There is certainly no contest happening in friendship spaces with which is more special or sacred, I think those sacred spaces are created in the way that we honor it.

<3

[Medusa]

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

*sigh*

I am speaking in my personal vernacular. (as most people often do when writing a post).

You certainly do not have to adopt my language. Insert "one another" or whatever makes you most comfortable so that this discussion can continue about the subject and not the semantics.

[Julie]

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

Again, you are making assumptions. This was simply used as an example. It feels like you are picking out key words and dissecting them. This is about relationships and the friendships we have forged and how we navigate them.

Interesting based on this example the OP gave, we heard from butches as well. I wonder why they felt okay to respond? - This question asked based on your reaction to the example.

[Martina]

I wonder why they felt okay to respond? - This question asked based on your reaction to the example.

Because other questions were asked as well. ??

[Dreamer]

I responded as I read the example given by the OP as just that an example and how it may have related to her, I then looked at how I would relate to the actual question and adjusted it to fit my status. I guess I assumed everyone would do the same, but then I out of everyone should know, never assume because always someone will prove you wrong.

[Julie]

Because other questions were asked as well. ??

Yet, you chose to dissect that one.

And with that said... Back to the OP question. I think this has the opportunity to be a really healthy dialogue. I am interested in learning more about the relationships we have with others and how others navigate them. I loved reading Dreamer's words to this question. I already knew the reasoning behind much of it, but it was nice to see it here. I think whenever we are given the opportunity to express ourselves in an open forum and share our experiences, we learn about one another.

We are talking about friendships and in the process... Who knows, a few new friendships might evolve.

Love this topic!!!

[Martina]

Yet, you chose to dissect that one.


Indeed, because that one purportedly addressed me AS it excluded me. But, I agree. Back to the topic.

[Cin]

Maybe it's a femme thing because I never had that kind of relationship or felt that way about butches. I haven't had a lot of close butch friends. Actually I don't think I've had any really close butch friends. And some of the butch friends I had were kind of judgmental and the relationships themselves were complicated. The femme one's too. And the gay and lesbian ones as well. Oddly I felt more relaxed around my straight buddies. My best friend for years was a straight guy. I felt very at ease with him. I never felt I was being judged for being too much or too little anything. Of course I might have less expectations for a straight man than I do for another queer. And maybe what we wanted and needed from each other is different and less fraught with ideals.

Yet I do enjoy coming here and talking to people who understand my preference for a particular kind of partner. People familiar with the butch femme dynamic specifically. But within that dynamic exists a multitude of possibilities.

Although sometimes there is a tendency to have border conflicts around the edges of identities mostly I am grateful to have a place like this to come and share stuff.

[BullDog]

Most of my closest friendships have been with femmes. These are a few women who I have felt comfortable enough to let in and talk about my feelings and things that are important to me and that are always there for me (and I for them), especially when the chips are down. The close femme friends that I have and have had- I do feel they get me quite well, even though they are not butch. It isn't a prerequisite that a person be a femme to be a close friend of mine, but quite a few of my closest ones are or have been. It is nice to have close friends that do get the gender aspects of butch (and appreciate it) and also being part of butch femme community, so yes it is nice and it some ways adds aspects to the friendship that wouldn't be there with someone not familiar with our gender nuances and community.

I do like having butch friends- it usually revolves around doing things rather than deep conversations. There is a nice camaraderie to that. That's not to say I couldn't have a deep conversation with another butch or group of butches. I just haven't really experienced it on any sustained basis. I don't feel there is some sort of butch language that we speak, the way I have heard described by some femmes (I have seen this in action and it is a beautiful thing, so I am definitely not putting it down or questioning it). Why have I not have any really close butch friends that I could talk in depth with? I don't know. Maybe I just haven't met the right butch, lol. Seriously though, the femmes I have gotten close with I think are ones who have taken the time to get to know me and reach out to me. However, I have very much enjoyed being around butches and have had real life butch friends when I lived in Portland. I do miss that.

Other friends not butch or femme, they get me fine as a person but don't necessarily know much about being butch. That of course isn't all there is to me, so it's fine if they don't really understand that part too well.

[Gráinne]

I forgot to answer the question as it pertained to me :P.

I'll have to admit that sometimes I am envious of the femme friendships here, to say nothing of the butch-femme romantic partnerships, and I don't know that I'll ever "get there". I know that there's a long history way before this site, and I'm relatively new. Still, it can be hard. I know I'm welcomed and hopefully well liked by most, but I'm not in the "inner circle". I don't have that sense of intimacy, yet.

Part of this is because I call myself "Bones Lite". The character on the TV show seems to exaggerate her awkwardness and lack of social skills for comedic effect, but I can be somewhat like her. Hopefully not rude or too outspoken as she is sometimes, but the kind of banter, openness, and intimacy that most women enjoy with one another (and that Angela in the show seems to want in her friendship with Bones) does not come easily for me. I'm not good at light teasing and joking, and am painfully shy with people I don't know well. I grew up in a very formal family, so the kind of verbal jousting in most conversations does not come naturally to me.
That's not to say I don't treasure the friendships I have formed here, with all genders and ID's. I'm sort of the "universal donor" of friends :D.

Off site, my best friends are twins (with each other), and we've been friends for 47 years! Both live 1,000 miles from me (and from one another), and months may go by before we call, but we pick up like we spoke yesterday. Both are married and religious, and well, I'm here, but it didn't matter. When I came out to one, she said "I knew that". I don't remember either of them getting on me about finding a boyfriend or dating in high school, even though both of them were usually in a relationship. I was accepted, even if I didn't know I was gay.

I wish I knew how to "do" friendship better, and maybe I can learn, but I can't be what I'm not wired for. Thinking about this thread, I believe the social roles I was driving at earlier play some part, but personality traits and ability to be open and intimate are probably way up there, if not moreso, than gender or ID.

[Kätzchen]

So, what a great thing to think about: How do we build friendships, who or how we trend toward - in terms of friendship or how we cultivate friendship, our tendency or desireable method of communication, et al.

I identify as Femme and I count membership in this particular community as the longest setting of time devoted to my own character development, personal growth and cultivating friendship with others who share similarity within the context of Butch & Femme (and/or as a community of like-minded individuals who identify anywhere within the spectrum of Butch/Femme Identity).

I think it's healthy to participate in a social-media website that is specifically created for our own personal enjoyment but also because it's painfully clear that some (or many) of us do not have ways to establish friendships locally and find that cultivating and developing friendships with others in our online community, feels positive to me.

About communication preferences: I enjoy face-to-face communication the most, but don't always have a way to hang out with people I've known for years or even with those I have not known for as long as those I've known for better than ten years (20+ years, in one case).

I have 3 really close girlfriends: two of whom identify as Femme (they're members here) and one who does not; and of the three, two are married or are in long-term relationships. My closest long-term Femme friend is single and she lives out on the coast, she's also about five years older than me. She also identifies as Bi-sexual and Lesbian and she came out in her thirties (she's almost 60 years old now - so hard to believe!) We talk with each other primarily via email and talk by phone at least 4 or five times a year, but more if necessary - for example, a health crisis or work-related issue that need sorting out, but mostly we (my Femme friend who lives out on the coast) meet up at least once a year and spend a weekend in each other's company, just to enjoy one another, bond and have tons of fun. :)

And, since I am phone-less (right now), I couldn't be happier, I suppose because one time recently, maybe a year ago or so now, I was saying that I might end up using 'smoke signals'. *lol* And it's come to that, unfortunately, but not for long. So yes, having access to communicate via the interwebz is vital to my sanity... I like telephone conversations but for me to really benefit from cultivating and developing and maintaining vital friendships/relationship, I must say that hands down, Face-2-Face wins, pretty much all the time (primarily).

About whether I think gender is a factor in building/cultivating/developing/maintaining friendships:

Maybe. But for the most part I would say no. I think most people I am friends with I either met via a workplace setting or randomly at places I have been (the grocery store or places I frequent on a regular basis) or went to school with or any other number of ways in which we formed relationships with people we know fairly well. My circle of Femme friends is very small.... my circle of close family friends is small, too.

I would say that for me, it takes time for me to really know someone and I would think likewise, for them. I think I can agree that for me, it's an organic process - the idea on how friendships (any relationship, really) begin and flourish over time.

[Gemme]

Of course I might have less expectations for a straight man than I do for another queer.

I know I do. I expect hella better behavior and understanding from my community than the general straight population. Some days I think that's fair and some days I think I expect too much, but it is what it is.

[RockOn]

Oh good. I just read where Medusa made a reply and said we can have multiple answers.

Interesting topic! I will come back and do the survey but one thing is for sure. I hate a telephone when a conversation goes over 5 minutes. Sometime in the past year a butch bud of mine remembers how I would answer my phone back in the late 80s ... it was "speak and be brief" ... my bud spoke the truth about me.

[Luv]

I'm all over the map here. With my femme friends I can talk for hours on the phone..with my bitch/trans buddies its usually to the point..but it depends on the person.My closest friends are femmes.

[girl_dee]

i don't have any femme friends here, but have some androgynous folks i go back with a long way that i connect with about every week, and a couple of butch friends.

i REALLY long for a femme bestie, a close friend here, in person, even to see once in a while.. i am very selective and don't let people get close to me easily.

But as far as friends go i don't care about gender

[imperfect_cupcake]

I get what Martina was saying. My friends are my friends and I don't like gender labeling them. I did think this was great before I left for the UK, but once I got to a place where sorting people into "gets me" by gender didn't work (too much variance) it was really, really pointless.

I have extremely close friends that are: trans, intersex, femme (of the "meh" ID kind, meaning yeah, I'm femme, meh), butches (of the afore mentioned meh), some who are quite proud of their ID but other than when they are shouting it on the stage really never ever bring it up, some who call themselves "dolly mixture/liqourice all sorts", butch (of the strongly ID'd but not really into dicussing it too much as it seems a bit moot), bisexual cis queerdos, I can go on.

I just don't ever say "this is my femme friend" as tbh they would find it just as weird as if I introduced them as "my lesbian woman female friend".

I don't see femme as a point of pride. I'm not ashamed of it. It just is. kinda like my tits. It's there, it's what it is, it's perfectly acceptable and ... meh.

So although I don't cringe when people do it, it does seem "foreign and clunky" and not really something I can relate to much. I know I used to... but I don't really have that anymore.

My friends are more divided, to be honest, in my head, by introvert/extrovert scales. I can talk to my friends who are butch about fashion and politics just like my mates who are femme. And my cis straight bloke mates are THE BIGGEST GOSSIPS EVER, honest to fuck if I was going to base one gender trait on my own grouping... cis heterosexual men are massive gossips. and Unca ted (a ver old mate of mine) never shuts up. like, ever.

but he's an extrovert, like me.

I just don't see it reflecting my life, that's all. the diversity between anyone of them and another intersex man, or another femme or another post-modern butch, or another transwoman or another ... it is really... there are more differences intragender than intergender.

If I get asked that "well why do you come here then" my big answer is "I have no idea. cause I know people here?" cause a lot of the stuff I read sometimes makes me go "huh??? since WHEN?"

I tend not to date butches that are all about being butch and me being femme. or whittering on about "the dance"
I like sex with butches. b-f is my sexuality. that's about as far as it goes. b-f really, for me, all it is, is about the sex. I'm going to be totally honest. I like a female person who has a cock (in it's various forms, flesh and silicone) and sometimes it's nice if they have a vagina and a clit, though it doesn't have to be stated that way. that's kinda it.

I also like them to dress in men's/tomboy clothes, be sexually dominant and kinky dirty fukers, but that has nothing to do with gender.

so, like some people are lesbians but don't eat lentils or listen to tracy chapman, I'm b-f sexual but I don't dig the binary gender behaviour assumptions. I guess I'm not Old School American b-f. that's ok. I'm totally fine with that.

if someone finds me a chair, it's for me, and because they adore me and care about me, not because I'm a femme - or it bloody well better be for me and not cause of my gender grouping. I do things for people because I love and care about them. I don't care what gender they are. I got so confused with this when I got back... all the rules I forgot about during dating... I just forgot about how things are done here. I got used to just being Babs who happens to be femme. and we are friends because of our connection. I had close mates who were butch that I slept with in the same bed and cuddled with.
And talked about stuff. I still do. it doesn't *feel* like I'm talking to someone of another gender... I'm talking to another *person* independant from me.

However, if I'm talking to someone who keep gendering me, I really feel it. and I get annoyed. One of my friends always unlocks my bike for me. But she does it with such care that it doesn't feel like "Must Unlock Femme Bike" which coming home, I have to say I can *really* pick up on. And it feels weird to me. But a lot of girls like it here. Cool. If that's how you reach your bonna, Tally Ho! and all that.

But it feels clunky, odd and foreign to me. And I feel lonely when someone does that. I feel like a cardboard cutout of a femme unit. I feel erased as a person. I like being someone's *friend*. ME. then, later, you can, yannknow, look down my top. that's fine lol.

[Gemme]

Does anyone really introduce folks as 'this is my femme friend, Veronica' or 'this is my butch friend, Chris'?

Putting it like that, I totally see what you and Martina are touching on.

But I do have femme friends. And butch friends. And Trans friends. But I don't introduce them as such. Not that I can think of, anyway. I might use it as a descriptor, such as, "You remember me talking about my friend, Kate, right? She's the blonde femme that was in the play last month" but that's about all I can think of as to how I might use that reference.

I do feel that we bond stronger with those who share the same/similar experiences and views. For me, that tends to be mostly with female-bodies folks, no matter their id. Whittling it down from there, I've lived my life as a straight person and a bisexual at different times and now am finally home with Queer, so I feel that I have a lot in common with just about everyone. I look pretty damn hot in a tie and fedora too, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with anything. Or friends. Unless a bunch of us got together and all looked hot together, but then I wouldn't give a rat's ass about anyone's identity. They would all be my fucking hot friends. In ties and fedoras.

I see how my personal identity affects the way my friendships flow. I'm a girl. For some folks, that doesn't affect anything but I feel a separate connection with other girls and, for some of my butch and trans friends, there is a thread of tenderness that I don't always see with others that don't know I'm a girl. So, it's not just about gender and it's not just about identity and it's not just about how each person presents theirselves but how their identity and gender present to mine and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong. If I love you enough, I'll kill for you, no matter how you identify. But the pain inflicted and the time it takes for the other person to die might change according to how you and I connect.

[Bard]

I have friends all over the spectrum but only a few are really close I just don't let folks in. I am actually painfully shy but I was always the aquward kid growing up the outcast never quite fit in so.. I try to talk to people but I want to be the positive one because I remember lots of hurtful crap that I was told way back when ..idk... phone has never been my best medium my sister fusses at me all the time that I do not call more it really hurts her but even desd and I text way more then phone

[imperfect_cupcake]

Gemme, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel that way, if you do, you do. I love my girly shit and I like have mates to dig my girly shit with me but here's the superise - sometimes that's a cis het bloke or even a butch. yep. I can sit down and go through an asian fashion magazine and talk about the photographs and styles with any number of my friends, regardless of gender. cause my friends are mostly pretty urban, artsy, alternative and metrosexual. all of us, regardless of out gender, if we need something fixed, call Ken or Y. Mainly cause he has a job that fixes shit. Or Y cause she's inclined like that. Y is girly (no ID) btw. Ken isn't girly, but he has some great fashion style.

I think it's who your friends with. I don't have friends who really play any sports. a few who watch them. Sonja (pansexual girly girl) is probably the biggest hockey fan. She goes to a cafe to watch the game and flirt with the italian barista cause when she asks if any of us want to watch is usually no.

Unca ted paints, sings in a band, Jess plays drums and fixes bikes and helps out at the boozecan (illegal drinking establishment that features new bands etc) and designs new stage set ups and room decor. Ken makes habitats for the vancouver aquarium and paints and is probably the biggest lesbian I know when it comes to girls (falls in love in four seconds, writes dedicational poetry, wants them to move in after three months, and gets deeply upset howl at the moon heart broken when it ends. he does my head in sometimes), Y works for people who do animal counts in the wild, she's often off on horseback for a couple of weeks. Em is a martha stewart clone that wears nothing but flannel and is an office manager. I could go on.
I miss my London friends for certain things but not because they got me more as a girl. they got certain things like... my exwife was *the* person to take shopping - she was a butch version of Gok Wan (English fashion consultant). although my freinds here are fashionable, they aren't as uber fashion minded as the ones in London and I miss that.
except I was the only one that didn't watch soccer and I bloody hated world cup years. Plus I miss the use of irony (sarcasm), vular humour and insults. I miss the peacocking.

yes I like having "girls night" cocktails and poker. but "girls night" is anyone female. I sometimes just want a penis free room. We swap stories of the biggest bruise we ever got, how many people with a bent dick did you see, have you ever tried X kind of sex, kerri usually bitches about her job (she's a grip for movies - cis straight girl) till we slip into a coma. JJ talks about their latest baking experiment (tgbutch) and we pretend to be interested.

that's kinda how my life is. I know people have really different lives from me. I'm well aware of that by now lol. But I'm also saying that it's not abnormal for plenty of us to just not see things that way. And I only describe people's gender trait "femme" as I would "blonde" if it was *relevant* to the conversation. But lots of people, I notice here, without relevance say "me and my femme friend went out for coffee ans talked about the movie we saw"

It's that I don't get. why is it relevant? I used descriptors here for point making. Otherwise I wouldn't have botherd. Why would I say "my tgbutch mate JJ talks about baking bread till they bore everyone" just generally? it just seems odd to me when I don't see the relevance. And sticks out like someone saying "big tit barb came over for coffee yesterday, we played monopoly" ???? y'know?

I don't get it. and it's not something I'm personally comfy with. But I get that a lot of you enjoy it. I just don't. that's all.

[Gemme]

Gemme, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel that way, if you do, you do. I love my girly shit and I like have mates to dig my girly shit with me but here's the superise - sometimes that's a cis het bloke or even a butch. yep. I can sit down and go through an asian fashion magazine and talk about the photographs and styles with any number of my friends, regardless of gender. cause my friends are mostly pretty urban, artsy, alternative and metrosexual. all of us, regardless of out gender, if we need something fixed, call Ken or Y. Mainly cause he has a job that fixes shit. Or Y cause she's inclined like that. Y is girly (no ID) btw. Ken isn't girly, but he has some great fashion style.

I think it's who your friends with. I don't have friends who really play any sports. a few who watch them. Sonja (pansexual girly girl) is probably the biggest hockey fan. She goes to a cafe to watch the game and flirt with the italian barista cause when she asks if any of us want to watch is usually no.

Unca ted paints, sings in a band, Jess plays drums and fixes bikes and helps out at the boozecan (illegal drinking establishment that features new bands etc) and designs new stage set ups and room decor. Ken makes habitats for the vancouver aquarium and paints and is probably the biggest lesbian I know when it comes to girls (falls in love in four seconds, writes dedicational poetry, wants them to move in after three months, and gets deeply upset howl at the moon heart broken when it ends. he does my head in sometimes), Y works for people who do animal counts in the wild, she's often off on horseback for a couple of weeks. Em is a martha stewart clone that wears nothing but flannel and is an office manager. I could go on.
I miss my London friends for certain things but not because they got me more as a girl. they got certain things like... my exwife was *the* person to take shopping - she was a butch version of Gok Wan (English fashion consultant). although my freinds here are fashionable, they aren't as uber fashion minded as the ones in London and I miss that.
except I was the only one that didn't watch soccer and I bloody hated world cup years. Plus I miss the use of irony (sarcasm), vular humour and insults. I miss the peacocking.

yes I like having "girls night" cocktails and poker. but "girls night" is anyone female. I sometimes just want a penis free room. We swap stories of the biggest bruise we ever got, how many people with a bent dick did you see, have you ever tried X kind of sex, kerri usually bitches about her job (she's a grip for movies - cis straight girl) till we slip into a coma. JJ talks about their latest baking experiment (tgbutch) and we pretend to be interested.

that's kinda how my life is. I know people have really different lives from me. I'm well aware of that by now lol. But I'm also saying that it's not abnormal for plenty of us to just not see things that way. And I only describe people's gender trait "femme" as I would "blonde" if it was *relevant* to the conversation. But lots of people, I notice here, without relevance say "me and my femme friend went out for coffee ans talked about the movie we saw"

It's that I don't get. why is it relevant? I used descriptors here for point making. Otherwise I wouldn't have botherd. Why would I say "my tgbutch mate JJ talks about baking bread till they bore everyone" just generally? it just seems odd to me when I don't see the relevance. And sticks out like someone saying "big tit barb came over for coffee yesterday, we played monopoly" ???? y'know?

I don't get it. and it's not something I'm personally comfy with. But I get that a lot of you enjoy it. I just don't. that's all.

No worries. Didn't think you were. I was just seeing a clearer vision of what you and Martina were referencing. It does feel awkward when stated like what you said in this post and what I said above.

Common interests versus self-identification are what bonds you to your friends. I get that and I have some friends like that as well. I just feel a little something more....something more like 'home'....with others who I bond with more through identity and that relationship and connection than through common interests. Neither is better or worse than the other.

Then I started talking about ties and got off on a tangent.

:blink:

*shrug*

[bright_arrow]

I don't know about friends but I have a lot of acquaintances. I think the queer to straight ratio is 50/50, never gave it much thought. Don't really do the girly thing - shopping, music, magazines, bar hopping. My interests I share with a variety of them, gender identity be damned. For what it's worth, I find I converse more with my queer family, particularly the butch and trans folks. The straight folks I talk to most, family aside, are actually some of my best guy friends - one I have known for 13 years since our highschool days. We communicate through FB and texting a lot.

[SleepyButch]

Speaking for myself, it has been easier for me to make friends online throughout the last 15 years or so. Does that make me weird? Maybe, but I don't care.

I have made some really great friends from this site and the Dash site and so on. Some I have met in person and know personally and others I just know by their online names. Being the shy person that I am, the online "life" has made it a lot easier for me to actually connect with other Butches, Femmes and the like. Once you get to know me, I rarely shut up!

As far as how I communicate with friends, I love to talk on the phone. (See the part about rarely shutting up before you want to have a conversation with me.) I think it's important to connect on that level if your friend is far away. I have a few very close friends that I trust with all of my deepest darkest secrets and they are all on the femme side of the spectrum. I just seem to connect better with femmes for some reason. I do not need to talk with them daily but don't mind doing so either.

I don't mind texting either but I think sometimes or maybe a lot of times, texts can be taken the wrong way.

[Medusa]

Does anyone really introduce folks as 'this is my femme friend, Veronica' or 'this is my butch friend, Chris'?




I don't!

When I think of the gender of my closest friends, it is often in context of seeing them as a complete being. i.e. My friend "Jessica" who is Femme, Jewish, Differently-abled, tattooed, a Mother, and an elder.

Because I may not want to base my friendship with them on whatever group they are in, but I definitely want to honor those parts of them if that makes any sense.

I stepped away from this thread for a few days because I got really irritated with my inability to be super duper crystal fucking clear that this thread was not meant as a "Femme friends are the best friends!!!!" or "All Female Friends Are GIRLFRIENDZZZZZ*#*#*#*!!!!" kind of thing. (as if!)

I felt like I was noticing a pattern of sorts. The way groups form. The way friendships are formed between Femmes. The way friendships are formed between Butches.
And I guess I've just been really, really lucky because I have the privilege of saying that the friendships I have formed with some of the Femmes who are in my life over the last 15 years have been by far the closest, most authentic, most loving friendships I have in my life.
And I hate to even use the word "most" here because I'm not interested in a hierarchy where Femme friendships are on top and friendships with straight men are on the bottom. I'm merely saying that for me, in my life, I connect with Femmes in ways that are magical and amazing and in ways that I do not connect with otherly gendered folks. And perhaps that's some of my own gender stuff (and I own it!) where some of the best healing of my life has come in the presence of other (mostly Femme) women.

It's been nice to hear about other folks friendships and ways of being here. :)

[Corkey]

Iz Human and has human relationships. Some are pleasant, some are not. Most are important, but less so then the relationships I have with animals. The most important one is with my wife, everyone else comes after her.

[blush]

For me, I tend to bond better in small groups. I'm not shy, per say, but I'm reserved. I get overwhelmed in large groups, and it comes off as aloof. I've never had TONS of friends, and I used to feel a lacking because I didn't. But really, I'm just not build that way. I read somewhere that introverts see social situations as draining energy, and extroverts see them as filling energy. I'm definitely an introvert, so even if I'm having a fabulous time, I will wear out.

I love being around my friends because there's a common language and history. Whether they're work friends, childhood friends or bf friends. I get more excited when I see my bf friends because we're all kinda special unicorns and sightings are more rare.

I love to text and call, but in person is best, IMO.

[Okiebug61]

I am totally different than most. I have had many a bad experience with people, and I am very picky who I let into my life. I am not good at following the in crowd because I fear there is a cliff at the edge!
Red and I have friends we hang with but they are all heterosexual couples.

[Just_G]

My closest friendships are with femmes.....the first person I call or text when something happens in my life is PinkieLee! Not my girlfriend (when I am dating), not my drinking buddies; I call my favorite femme. I also call my other favorite femmes from time to time to catch up and let them know they are on my mind; sometimes just to hear their voices and have some gab time.

My femme friends are the cool side of the pillow! You know, when you flip the pillow over and lay on the cool side and it is comfortable and just what you need and you relax and think "ahhhhh". There is something so comforting in knowing I have such wonderful friendships with femmes. I can really talk to a handful of them about pretty much everything.

I have a couple of friendships with butches that I hold so close to my heart, but we never talk. We might text once in a while, but the talking thing is rare. Another one close to me is Durrrrrrrr, and we talk every so often, and I love that we do that!

I have never planned out that I would be closer to femmes than butches or transguys; it just happened. It's not even that we are closer, it's that we communicate more in the grand scheme of things. It's the same way with straight women I hang out with.

Funny story; I went with a friend to a bonfire. When I was introduced to the woman throwing the party, I was pleasantly surprised to meet a femme. We got along great and have even met for dinner once since that night. We text every so often too. I am so excited to have femme energy so close to home...that is very refreshing to me. I didn't think of her in a romantic way from the get go, as I was just thrilled to meet a femme locally. I told her over that dinner that I was grateful for her femme energy and that I looked forward to becoming friends. She laughed and said that nobody had ever thanked her for being femme.

[bright_arrow]

Once you get to know me, I rarely shut up!

I just seem to connect better with femmes for some reason. I do not need to talk with them daily but don't mind doing so either.

So I snipped that I relate to :) For anyone on my FB, it goes without saying that I have moments when I just won't STFU :blush: If you've only seen me at Reunion then I am sure you are shaking your head in disbelief. True fact!

And Sleepy, I am so glad you said it first because I actually fretted over saying it, though it is reverse for me - I connect better with butch and trans folks. I think I can count on one hand the femmes I have in my phone, and it was due more in part to having numbers if needed at Reunion then it being anyone I actually text on a regular basis.

At Reunion, I confined in the wife that femme swap is a very awkward situation for me because I feel like the new kid at school - I do not have a group to take refuge at. Perhaps a lot of it is also the amount of people in one room that overwhelms me, but it is really sad for me. I can't go over and hug someone happily and chat and show off clothes to. Like Cajun said, I also have no femme bestie!

However, if femmelicious does come across this, you are not my friend lovely lady ~ at this point you are family, and I love you bunches, so exclude yourself from this rant xo

AND now that I finally read the OP - I love to text, talking on the phone depends who you are, lucky few Skype :) We as a couple only have two lesbian couples in the area, and outside of that is co-workers. I think we would benefit from more local people to hang out with, but I am not sure. We're pretty content with each other. I know myself personally I communicate often through FB statuses and comments, and there are a few folks from here I text roughly once a week or two if not more.

As for how people make friendships - I am not really sure. It has been a LONG time since I've made a friend in person.

:phonegab:

[PinkieLee]

My best friend and some of my closest friends are butch/trans. But I also have femme friends that are like sisters to me. Is one relationship more important that the other?! No.

Luckily, I hit the Best Friend jackpot when G and I met. What 8 years later, and it just keeps getting better. That friendship is fucking sacred to me!

I think it boils down to just having people that you mesh with. It's kind of like an ahhhhh haaaaa moment when you have that first conversation. It feels like coming home.

[Just_G]

The contact history on my phone is filled with calls from my wife and a few from my Mama. Not a phone guy, I prefer texts.

We recently had dinner with some dear friends, and for a moment I felt pure brotherly love and joy. As we toured their new home my butch bud and I inspected everything from the pool pump, trash compactor , lawn mower, AC unit. We made a pact to get together and hang the TV and install a garbage disposal. Because in my world, that's quality time. The good fucking stuff.
We did square off on the trash compactor which wasn't working and fixed it.
As we scrambled to find trash and run a test, we were excited like it was Christmas.

Those of us butches who have long hair, dig a tag of make-up, or prefer a blouse over a tee shirt.... I adore you. Its authentic to put your back up against a wall and say "this is how I do butch".
In our quest for commonality did we pull out rulers and start measuring each other? Did we get lost trying to "out dude the dudes"?

Butch, soft Butch..... I just want to break the fucking ruler.

Femme friends, talking on the phone etc, Ive never had one (except for my wife)
I think for me the divide is how we communicate with each other,
I don't want to process everything from A-Z for hours :seeingstars:
Even though I can cook, sew, and cut coupons with the best, I see those as survival skills and not passions that I want to process.
No matter how hard I try the stove still catches on fire, my buttons always fall off and those coupons have expired. LOL

As far as the men in my life from this community, I cant imagine BFP without them. Authentic Fucking warriors, each and everyone of you. XXOO

Ive enjoyed reading how we do it, because its to me NOT a debatable subject, its a sharing subject.

I LOVE bonding over projects like that! I have to agree it is about sharing....if we don't share, how do we learn about each other? There are so many things I want to know about people, but when we all get together in person, we are so busy having fun, we don't have time to just sit and talk one on one. I try to make it a point to do that, but it just gets crazy...lol

I am going to start shooting you some texts Jack...I miss you throughout the year and I'll be damned if we will go that long without communicating somehow! Texting it is!! :clap: In fact, I am going to be bugging you soon because I have a kitchen plumbing issue I need some advice on.

[imperfect_cupcake]

after reading jackhammer it just brings me back to common interests, like genme said. I don't have any mates who'd look at a pool pump or ac. they don't fish or four wheel drive.
its just not my friendship pool. I do have quite a few mates who ID as butch but they just aren't that kind. I did try dating one who was very.... truck, fishing, video games, steak, works in a hardware store, doesn't talk much... but other than sex there wasn't anything in common and I felt kinda lonely sometimes with h just not my world, really.
if I hung out with a whole bunch of butches like that and femmes who did old school feminine type stuff, I'd probably think there was a big difference between butches and femmes.
but although I'm pretty girly in many ways many of my pursuits are just general interests like science, museums, galleries, pubs, cafes, lounges, various events for political things and fund raising.
I'd prefer to talk on the phone but no one I know can afford to. its rare Skype sessions and some text. mostly email and the bulk of my communication is through Facebook.
or in person. my local mates don't seem to communicate via any other mode than text to arrange meet and then hang and talk.
everyone else, in the uk, Australia, south east Asia, Holland, Greece, France and the us, is Facebook.

I'm sincerely not an old school gal - well... american style one at least.
its great if one is, I just don't get exposed to it much because my own personal interests lay in other things. I've had old school type relationships but we shared the common interests as mentioned above. and we all shared a box mix up of friends.

that's why I think where one is might also co tribute a lot to the question asked.
I think gender lines seem stronger in certain types of backgrounds or environments or the way you express your gender attractions.

I can see why it might look that way if that's what your friend circle looked like. so at least I'm not baffled now.

so thanks.

but the world is a massive place and with many ways to do the things we all do. I don't think I'll have anything in common save one or two things just because some has the same ID as me. that includes communication. to me it strikes me as an individual thing. I communicate with individuals so... I don't see a trend. but it do think gemme is right. its because I bond through common interests and common values and goals. not ID. :)

[Sparkle]

I think it is interesting that the original question was:

Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in HOW We Do It?

but many response's were centered on WHO we do it with.


I'm not criticizing people who answered that way, I genuinely think its interesting that the conversation seems to have moved in that direction.

My friends are all over the map in terms of who they are (their personal identities), and my friendships are as unique as the people in my life are different from each other, and I love that.

[Cin]

I think it is interesting that the original question was:

Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in HOW We Do It?

but many response's were centered on WHO we do it with.


How we do it is either very simple or very difficult to answer. This is probably why people respond with who they do it with. I mean "how" is either a very concrete answer like how do i keep up friendships - in person, on the phone, text messaging, online etc. Which is really rather short on content containing not much to elaborate on. Or it's a more philosophical answer like "how" do i conduct my friendships. And I think within that context it could arguably contain who do i do it with and why do i think that is.

Maybe?

[Cin]

Well I fish, I enjoy a good steak every now and again and I love my video games although as I age I notice I don’t put the time in like I used to. But the love is still there. I talk plenty, it just might not be subjects that hold anyone’s interest. The operative word is really hold because you might initially be interested, but I can talk about the same thing for hours examining it from every conceivable angle, reviewing it, using every possible scenario until you either want to cry or stick something sharp in MY eye.

If you are pressed for time or even just bore easily you might want to skip the long version and jump down to the end.

LONG VERSION

A little background to explain the difficulty in bonding with the handy butch.

I could look at a pool pump until the end of time and I really wouldn’t be any closer to understanding what I might do to make it pump if it didn’t want to. I would love a pool though.

I wanted to take our AC apart and run water through it to clean out any possible mold cause it’s coming on 3 years old and mold just happens sometimes. My wife talked me out of it because she believes I will cut myself on something sharp. I can understand her reluctance. I’m sure she still remembers when I put together a TV stand for her step- mother. I did something wrong, not sure what, except that it was uncorrectable (at least by me.) Apparently once screwed in, using these kinds of screws on this particular place on the stand, you couldn’t remove the screws. Because of that I was not able to attach the shelf and the doors. So she really did just have a stand. I mean I’m sure someone with the know how could have just pulled out the old power tools and found a way to attach the shelf and doors. But I only had a manual screwdriver and zero ability.

I put together one of those big white cabinets once. My gf at the time made sure to explain to me that this project would be mine alone as she had no aptitude for this kind of thing. I cheerfully assured her this butch had it covered. I laid out the directions and began what turned into a 5-hour marathon. At the end, after discovering that I had some how put the shelves on upside down or backwards or something and the cans would just slide off the shelf, my exasperated “I wouldn’t know a Philips screwdriver from a carburetor” femme took over and fixed the shelves so our food wouldn’t slide to the floor when we stocked the cabinet.

After purchasing a crib my very pregnant ex and I discovered there are a lot of pieces in that box. More tiny springs and screws and oddly shaped paraphernalia than you could ever imagine. I laid out the crib pieces and began studying the directions while my partner examined said pieces. Before I ever finished reading the directions she had most of the crib put together. She didn’t even need me to lift the heavy parts. She put the whole thing together and never once looked at the directions. She has an understanding of how things fit that I couldn’t hope to duplicate. I had a butch friend who lived in the apartment below us who kept trying to show me how to fix my car every time it would break down. My partner would hang around with my friend’s wife while watching peripherally trying to hear what was being explained. Finally I told my friend you need to tell this stuff to B, she will be able to do something with the information. For me it’s just so much gibberish.

One of my sister’s exes, M., is like me in some ways. She doesn’t naturally understand how to fix the car or put stuff together. I remember staying up all night with her one Christmas eve putting together my niece’s bike. We finally got the thing together just before sunrise. I’m sure the beers didn’t help, but the truth is neither of us has a natural aptitude for this stuff. But M. had something I don’t. A more practical intelligence. I’m smart sure, but in a very useless way. I am a good thinker. And really you’d be surprised how unnecessary it is to actually be good at that. You can easily get by being an okay thinker. Being good at it is mostly a handicap really. Anyway M.’s strength was in her ability to persevere. She would find out what was wrong with her car and then get books out of the library (the olden days before the internet put it all at our finger tips) and figure out how to fix it. It might take her hours, even days but she would get it done. I only recently learned how I too can do this. Thing is I don’t always want to. But I can. There isn’t anything I can’t read about and figure out how to do given enough time and margin for error. I mean if I was trying to defuse a bomb, we all explode, that’s a given. But normal stuff that is forgiving and flexible I can eventually figure it out. But that’s not always fun for me. So I may or may not do it. However, just knowing I can has given me a bit of confidence that I never had before.

Another of my sister’s exes, T, was a butch of a different type. He could fix anything. He was an electrician and very much a dude. He teased me about my inability to fix anything, my choices in swimwear and often told me what butches did or did not do (kind of like my mother did about what girls did or did not do). He ended up transitioning and now lectures on what men do or don’t do.

END OF LONG VERSION

My straight male friends, especially K., but all of them really, are like me. They don’t fix their own cars for fun or shoot pheasant and duck out of the sky. They like to spend a Saturday afternoon walking around Harvard Square talking and looking in bookstores or maybe taking in the Museum of Fine Arts or the Aquarium or a Science Museum. They are politically active. They enjoy getting together for a barbecue or a day at the beach. Maybe meeting after work to take in a Red Sox game at Fenway. Funny thing so do my straight female friends. Not much difference in what the guys like to do from what the girls like to do. I don’t see them much anymore since moving to Montreal, but they all had one thing in common. They were easy in themselves. The French have a saying here, Bien Dans Sa Peau, comfortable in your skin. That would define my straight friends. There was an ease of gender for them. There wasn’t the underlying frenetic apprehension surrounding gender presentation that I found present in many of my butch buddies. But then there didn’t have to be did there? They fit easily, their place in the world was solid. They walked through their life without suffering much anxiety surrounding their gender. So while I find them enjoyable as friends, I also enjoy my hyper gender aware butch buds. They may be a tad annoying with their crap about my v-neck t-shirt being too feminine or their merciless teasing at my insistence on wearing a woman’s bathing suit, but they have walked in my shoes and know my heart, they know something about what my life has been. We don’t share the same life, but we understand what it means to live differently.

HB mentioned American style butch femme. I wonder if it is cultural to a degree. There may be more emphasis on gender in general in the US than there is say in Europe. I’m not sure, never been. But it is possible. Certainly the people I’ve had as friends who were from European countries as opposed to the US or South and Central American countries seemed less gender concerned. There interests were more generic and less gender specific. But I don’t know if that was just my personal experience. But if it is true it might account for the more gender post traumatic stress symptoms found in American butches and femmes. Gender is so much more of a thing for everyone in America.

I do know that I have more in common with my straight male and female friends who like to go to museums or walk around Old Montreal, Harvard Square or Faneuil Hall than I do my butch friends who like to fix cars and walk around Home Depot. I also have butch and femme friends who find visiting museums enjoyable as well. The difference for me is that while I would have no use for straight male friends who only want to drink beer, fix cars, shoot cans and take in a grand prix or straight female friends who spend the day baking, shopping, doing their nails and talking about their men, I would be able to be friends with the butch/femme versions. They have something else for me even when we don’t share common interests. Without common interests straight people just don’t have anything for me. Not so with butches and femmes. They inherently have something in common with me. A shared life experience. Not a shared life. Not the same life, but a similar interaction has occurred between them and the world, at least enough so that they get where I have been because they have occupied similar space.

Still the truth of my life is that my best friends have been straight men or women. Can’t really explain it. It just is.

[imperfect_cupcake]

HB mentioned American style butch femme. I wonder if it is cultural to a degree. There may be more emphasis on gender in general in the US than there is say in Europe. I’m not sure, never been. But it is possible. Certainly the people I’ve had as friends who were from European countries as opposed to the US or South and Central American countries seemed less gender concerned. There interests were more generic and less gender specific. But I don’t know if that was just my personal experience. But if it is true it might account for the more gender post traumatic stress symptoms found in American butches and femmes. Gender is so much more of a thing for everyone in America.

Completely. It boggles and hurts my mind sometimes when I come here. It feels at times like a kind of gender obsession. When I have had the company of butch/femme visiting from the states to London I knew that they were going to get very weird looks for the constant gender talk coming out of their mouths. I would get looks of "are they on crack??" from others. They insult people by saying things like "so, where are the butches?" at a table that has many butches at it. I wince and smile and make a joke and try to move the conversation politely on. But since they don't dress/act in an american masculine manner, they don't "catch" it. If they go up north, it's more recognisable to them, because of the factory work and mills history. Also, I think if any of my partners had been referred to as "bro" by another dyke they probably would have stared with complete bafflement and slight disgust.

masculinity is not a constant. it's expressed differently. but people seem to think where they are is the bog standard man. And yes, masculinity is based on male behaviour - it may not belong to them but they are the ones that set the bar that women and queers grade themselves against. Which is why many of my butch friends in the UK wanted their own word.

Pronoun use is mostly she. Except for the ones who are transgender. And I didn't really see too many people in relative comparison who considered themselves that way. I knew a very small smattering of people who used "hy".... and the rest wince at it and call it an "americanism." People don't do american masculinity (repair, hunt/fish, steak, etc) because that's a pioneer type background. And they have a church of england or atheist back ground, not puritan/calvanism. These things make a big deal in how people see masculinity.

I just left a b-f singles group on fb that is supposed to be global. yet when I asked privately, the members who aren't in the states, why they don't post, the answer was "there's no point." what they talk about will just be ignored or whoosh past people as irrelevant.

Canada winds up being somewhere between the two. I find canuck reserve to actually be more, in some ways, than english, but less in other ways. But we also have a pioneer background so in vancouver, every dyke and their 6 dogs wants someone to snowshoe-kyak with while bench pressing a killerwhale. It's not really my thing. I'd rather do the walks you describe, Miss Tick, that sounds fabulous. I like history.

I do know that I have more in common with my straight male and female friends who like to go to museums or walk around Old Montreal, Harvard Square or Faneuil Hall than I do my butch friends who like to fix cars and walk around Home Depot. I also have butch and femme friends who find visiting museums enjoyable as well. The difference for me is that while I would have no use for straight male friends who only want to drink beer, fix cars, shoot cans and take in a grand prix or straight female friends who spend the day baking, shopping, doing their nails and talking about their men, I would be able to be friends with the butch/femme versions. They have something else for me even when we don’t share common interests. Without common interests straight people just don’t have anything for me. Not so with butches and femmes. They inherently have something in common with me. A shared life experience. Not a shared life. Not the same life, but a similar interaction has occurred between them and the world, at least enough so that they get where I have been because they have occupied similar space.

Again, for me just depends on their background more than anything. I've been with femmes who do nothing but talk about butches, shopping, baking and how cute their shoes are and I frankly want to open my wrists.

I do want some butch and femme friends, of course. there are some political things - if they are wired that way - I like to discuss with them. But the ones that are gender talk (in a non analytical/deconstructive kind of way) I can't do. It drives me a little bit mental. I'm really not interested in talking about my gender and butches. I like most of my conversations to pass the bechdel test, in terms of males and butches.

Also, I can often talk about some of those politics with non-ID'd dykes. feminine lesbians who don't ID get the same stick I do about most things. Masculine dykes who don't ID still get policed in the bathroom. But they don't talk to me about gender qualifying.

ID, since going to a place where I was accepted, is not the issue it once was. Coming home was hard because that acceptance was yanked back to a degree and it really hurt, but I've also learned a different view that is far more relaxed. And when I talk to people in seattle, that gets hyped up even further. I have tried to date south of the border but the constant butch, butch butch, butches do this and femmes are that, that I get puts me in a bloody bad mood. And I just don't have the patience. I find it less so here, but even lesser still in the UK and Holland.

I was actually considered to be the extreme of my queer friends in the UK. I had the piss taken out of me for talking about it more than anyone else. So... !!!
Goes to show, hey? If I'm extreme, then...

[Gemme]

...every dyke and their 6 dogs wants someone to snowshoe-kyak with while bench pressing a killerwhale.

Now, that's a damn good time waiting to happen.

:blink:

[Gemme]

LOL

Id rather go antiquing or see a Broadway play.
That sounds like too much work :)

But I'm sure you could use all kinds of your gadgety things in the process!

<--helpful

[nycfem]

I've enjoyed reading others' answers on this thread. I think what surprises me the most is just how much so many people hate talking on the phone and love texting. I LOVE talking on the phone. I often talk to my mom on the phone several times a day, sometimes for a few hours and sometimes for two minutes. I don't like phone "dates" or when every conversation has to be a long one. I really just like to hear someone's voice whether we are talking about nothing or something important. In fact, if you are reading this and enjoy off the fly phone conversations, please PM me so that we can exchange numbers. What's funny is that I'm not good at returning calls and may call someone else several times without a call back from them, while at the same time not minding at all if they don't call me back. I like to be very casual about the phone. Sometimes I resist calling friends because I'm worried they will think it's weird that I only have ten minutes and have nothing to say. Truth is, I just enjoy the connection, even if brief. It doesn't feel like the calls I do for work because there are no guidelines or expectations. I have this with a few people, though not many. This paragraph is part sharing and part advertisement for phone buddies :). If you happen to be someone who also connects over the phone, reach out to me. It's always fun to get to know new people from our community. Conversely, if you've been getting calls from me, and that's not your thang, as I'm realizing -gasp, not everyone's like me!- just let me know that too. And then keep in mind that at some point I will probably forget and need to be reminded again.

As far as texting, I am just not very good at it. I feel that I am slow and have difficulty communicating. I will engage in it a little bit and am sometimes cheered by the unexpected text, but in-depth texting is hard for me.

I like email alright but often feel I don't have much time to email. There is, however, nothing like a long email from a friend. The problem is that I'm inconsistent in responding. Still, I can type faster than text, so for real written communication (that isn't a few quick words), I prefer it over texting.

Private messaging is not my favorite form of communication because I'm lazy, and it requires that extra step that email doesn't for written communication. I'd much rather exchange emails and communicate that way. But on the other hand, it's prettier than email (at least my email!) and keeps things on the site, which has its own degree of comfort, so I'm cool with it for communicating with people I don't write with a great deal.

Well, of course this wasn't the question, but methods of communication did come up in the discussion, so forgive my rambling on the topic.

As to the question, I have a lot more phone and this-site communication with people than BB, and BB has a lot more Facebook communication with people. BB also sometimes talks on the phone but definitely not as much as I do. I am equally friends with butches, femmes, straight people, and trans people (or trans femmes / trans butches). I'm sure this description is not phrased right but I think you get the drift.

In person, I like to take walks with people. I think it's a nice way to talk. I also like to have people over to our apartment (if I trust them!) and chat and eat and just hang out. I have a group of BF friends that I get together with maybe twice a year. Life is like that. Much of life is taken up with work and responsibilities of one sort or another, and it's not always easy to fit in person social time in. I have friends from this site who I have not met or even talked on the phone with (you know who you are!) who I feel a deep bond with for years. I feel like if these people lived closer to me, it would be so nice to get together in person as friends. But, because of the nature of the geography of this site, it's just not possible.

There are also people who I may not be close friends with here but respect deeply on this site. They may not even realize how important they are to me, but I read their posts or see how they handle situations, and they end up holding a close place in my heart even if I don't tell them because it might sound weird. Hopefully that doesn't sound too stalkerish :D.

Anyway, enjoying this discussion and looking forward to more people posting. :)

[EnderD_503]

I have friends who I'll go out with some times or especially if I feel like going out to a club, then I have closer friends that I see a bit more often. I don't talk as often as I'd like with people, though. Especially after moving out of community housing. I don't think that has much to do with being butch or a trans guy, though. I know a lot of really social butches and trans guys.

As for phones...I really hate phones so much. I get really anxious when I have to make a phone call and often end up putting it off even if it's really important. When I do I often recite in my mind what it is I'm going to say, or sometimes write it down so I don't forget. Part of it is also I find sometimes I have trouble hearing what the other person is saying, and since they aren't in front of me I can't read their body language or anything else to try to fill in the blanks. Then I end up asking them to repeat themselves a million times and it makes me feel like crap...so yeah...I hate phones lol

[Ginger]

I don't know if gender plays a role in the way I am as a friend.

I can make some observations, but I'm not sure what they mean, if anything.

One is that I have a couple close straight male friends now and have had many others throughout my life, but I've never had a butch friend, and always felt a kind of wall with butch women especially if they were in a couple.

I've noticed that on this website, butches seem more open to friendships with femmes, and that makes the environment feel less rigid to me.

Off line, b-f couples I've known seem to gravitate toward other couples while two of my oldest dearest friends are a straight couple and I love them both a lot.

I do have one close femme friend who has friendships independent of her partner (not that I don't get along with her partner, but the femme and I are the ones with the connection).

My long-term friendships, except for the one femme friend I mentioned, are with straight people that I have things in common with. We met either in grad school or in the literacy or poetry communities in NYC.

Some of these are people I've had countless seders and Thanksgivings with, and when something bad or amazing happens in my life, I tell them right away.

Others are people I've seen at readings for 20 years, and we have a mutual respect and casual appreciation of each other, but we don't share anything personal.

Right now I'm getting close by talking on the phone with one of my ex's close friends. R broke up with me a couple weeks ago, as she lay in the hospital recovering from two strokes and heart failure, and was (is) waiting for a transplant.

Her close friend M was also banned from visiting her, for different reasons that are equally puzzling.

M, the ex, and I have been a huge solace for each other. We've talked and cried on the phone for hours and hours, and I am not generally a phone person. I feel very close to her, and we've shared our grief and sense of loss and bewilderment and anger and deep unrelenting worry about R with each other. I hope it's a friendship that continues beyond this crisis we've found ourselves in together. I've never had a friendship start that way. And it has nothing to do with gender.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know *so* many phone phobic (really anxious about talking on the phone) people...

[EnderD_503]

The worst for anxiety over the phone, imo, are phone interviews...who ever thought that was a good way of interviewing people? Ugh...

[Ginger]

The worst for anxiety over the phone, imo, are phone interviews...who ever thought that was a good way of interviewing people? Ugh...



I was just on a search committee and we interviewed a guy in Atlanta, via Skype. He really appreciated that we were open to doing that, and it went well. I think we got about as much a sense of who he is, as we did of the people who sat at the table with us. It's a good option, especially since so many people are willing to relocate.

[Ginger]

The worst for anxiety over the phone, imo, are phone interviews...who ever thought that was a good way of interviewing people? Ugh...


Also just wanted to say that while I described a good Skype experience in a post just now, I didn't mean to invalidate that for you, phone interviews (not quite the same as Skype but still...), are anxiety-producing.

[EnderD_503]

I was just on a search committee and we interviewed a guy in Atlanta, via Skype. He really appreciated that we were open to doing that, and it went well. I think we got about as much a sense of who he is, as we did of the people who sat at the table with us. It's a good option, especially since so many people are willing to relocate.

I think it depends on the job and if it's being done to accommodate the fact that someone can't be there in person. I agree it's a good idea if someone doesn't even live in that city or whatnot. The instances I've had to do phone interviews I didn't have an option, because they wanted both a short phone interview and an in-person interview. Most of them have been part-time positions at for example HMV. I just think it's silly to require it since there's a lot of reasons people might not feel comfortable.

[JDeere]

I am a transperson who has several friends who I have known for over 10 years. I have some friends who are butch/some femme/trans and some "straight" friends. I think that no matter how we label ourselves we can have friendships between whoever.

I am new to this site, well a year now, and I have met a few folks that I call friends.

I think that everyone is different and if we embrace the differences it can make for some awesome friendships.

My longest known friend is of 14 years, we were friends in high school, lost contact and after a few years saw each other and picked up where we had left off. She is a married CIS female, who has seen me as a bisexual, lesbian dyke now as a transman. Her love and her familys love has never waivered for me, her kids call me Uncle, I attend family functions and her parents call me their other son.

My opinion, the less true friends you have, the less drama you have!

[afrcnqueen]

I have two hetero close friends that I have known for over 20 yrs (one male/one female) I speak to them primarily on the phone unless I'm busy then it's quick texts.
My gay male friends prefer texts unless it's gossip about what they did that was "Oh so bad" lol then they need to talk. My lesbian/femme friends want to talk, they find texting impersonal.

I prefer to talk but I'm also down for texting depending on what I'm doing

[Jesse]

I am a trans guy, & I have a few close friendships that I have had for 10+ years. Most of my close friends are femme, and are not exes, even though I have a good social acquaintance type of friendship with the exes. I also have a close platonic friendship with a straight woman who lives in the same town I live in. She and I have been friends for 5 years, but close friends for the last 2 years.
I miss having a close butch or trans man friend. I am into fishing, bushcrafting and woodsman survival stuff, it would be so cool if I had a friend in the area to do some of that stuff with. I adore femme energy, but I also miss this energy too.