What does the "B-F Dynamic" mean to you?

[Strappie]

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?

[imperfect_cupcake]

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

[UofMfan]

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

who did that? ??

[amiyesiam]

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.


I have to agree with this. I am who I am, femme is a part of that. I try to be the best me I can be, not the best femme I can be. We as a couple, work together based on what we are good at. We don't assign rolls based on who is butch and who is femme.

I get the concept of the B-F dance
but everyone has to figure out what that means to them.

[UofMfan]

...I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

[SuperFemme]

Oddly, I thought HB was saying the same thing as you UofM...

Of course I guess it is open to self interpretation. I think the one point we can all agree on is that the B/F dynamic works in our lives in very individualized ways. Snowflakes. No two are alike. It is always snowing on the Planet, no?

[NJFemmie]

Yeah, so I'm confused because I too thought that was what honeybarbara was trying to impart ... that those particular things don't define the dynamic for her - (but then again, who's to say it doesn't for someone else...)

Interpretation is a slippery little sucker.

[amiyesiam]

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.


Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

[LieslKate]

A lil bit of Lesbian Herstory...

This first ethnography on the development of working-class lesbian communities from the 1930s to the 1960s focuses on a Buffalo, New York, lesbian community. Unlike gay men, gay women, by dressing the way they wanted, going to bars regularly, being financially independent from their families of origin and from men, and by boldly seeking out the company of other women like themselves, unwittingly created a community of their own. The authors argue that because the women in the community gave one another the support necessary to respond aggressively and "with pride" when facing an often disapproving and hostile society, they effectively built the real foundation of the gay and lesbian liberation movement. The oral histories of 45 women tell of victimization by their families, straight men, and one another but also recount the joys these women experienced by allowing themselves to be who they really were. Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthropology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. For academic libraries and women's studies collections.
- Patricia Sarles, Brooklyn P.L. , New York
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.

". . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . .." -- Ms. Magazine

"This should be seen as a groundbreaking book, a fascinating look at the pre-political support systems, of friendship groups extended to include ex-lovers' families and children that became one of the foundation blocks for building the gay/lesbian communities of our day." -- San Francisco Review of Books

At a time when many lesbian and gay leaders are urging assimilation and moderation, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold recovers a neglected chapter of lesbian and gay history and reminds us of the enduring importance of outlaw roots. -- San Francisco Chronicle-Examiner

Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. -- Library Journal

The book soars on the plain, yet eloquent voices of the women. . . -- Boston Globe

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in womens history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

Rarely does a book break entirely new ground, but this is surely one that does. With love, passion, and empathy, Kennedy and Davis bring to life the history of a working-class lesbian community. A complex, fascinating, and evocative world, it has much to tell us about gender, sexuality, class, and urban life. Above all, this is a story about the triumph of the human spirit over horrible adversity. The voices of these women sing on every page. -- John DEmilio, University of North Carolina at Greensboro

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold incorporates both academic values of sound scholarship and the lesbian communitys need for roots and for affirmation of our identity as woman-loving women. -- The Empty Chest

...Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy's and Madeline D. Davis' history of the lesbian working-class cummunity in Buffalo. Drawing on oral history as well as records, the authors have represented a microcosmic study of a fascinating and vital community. The importance of class and race and the techniques of survival in the face of oppression marked the historical experience of these women. Kennedy and Davis have written about the specific local development of a consciousness of a kind that is required for a liberation movement and that they show existed before Stonewall in Buffalo. -- The Los Angeles Times

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in women's history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

This very first community study of lesbians will radically advance the state of knowledge in gay and lesbian studies. Nuanced, lovingly researched and provocative, both the description and the argument are food for thinkingpeople. -- Esther Newton, State University of New York at Purchase and author of Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in America's First Gay and Lesbian Town

Until you know where you came from how can you know where you are going...

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold :
Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (March 1, 1994)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0140235507
ISBN-13: 978-0140235500

Other reading...
Radical History Review: Volume 63 (v. 63) Forging Gay Identities: Organizing Sexuality in San Francisco, 1950-1994 by Elizabeth A. Armstrong
Queer Fictions of the Past: History, Culture, and Difference (Cambridge Cultural Social Studies) by Scott Bravmann
Feminism, Sexuality, and Politics: Essays by Estelle B. Freedman (Gender and American Culture) by Estelle B. Freedman
Female Masculinity by Judith Halberstam

[HeartBreak Kid]

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?

For me, I LOVE the butch femme dynamic....and it is more to me than the apperance or "duties" that femme/butch implies..
The only way I can explain it is to talk about the connection in terms of "energies" my energy is firery and it seeks out a cooling energy. While I have dated Femme women as well, it seems that I find that "coolness" more often in butches.
For me the dynamic is often spiritual in that I feel like I am balanced regardless of who picks up the check or opens the door. *now I DO enjoy having my doors opened and someone to take out the trash, but thats isnt what I am attracted to in the B-F dynamic.
Now every butch and Femme is diffrent, but there is a unique "swagger" that draws me in like a moth to a flame....
A few years ago there was a song that had a verse that kinda sums up how I feel about the butchh femme dynamic....
I'm a movement by myself.
But I'm a force when we're together
I'm good all by myself.
But baby you, you make me better
~You Make Me Better ft Ne-Yo by Fabolous~

Please excuse all spelling and gramatical errors as im typing while half asleep......:runforhills:

[Jess]

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?


Howdy Scrappie! You write just fine! I would love to hear what it means to you as well.

For me, I see it as an attraction dynamic between women whom identify as butch attracted to women whom identify as femme. And vice- versa. Pretty much sums up the simple definition for me.

Now.. that said, I agree with honeybarb and others above in that identifying myself as a butch woman, does not attach itself to any specific "role mechanics" nor do I see femme attached to any specific mechanics. Read: Butch doesn't just take out trash. mow yard ( although this butch enjoys those things) and femme does not mean " keep away from power tools" because my femme mate is handy as hell. it doesn't mean "butch= breadwinner/ femme= homemaker".. because it is exactly the opposite in our home.

I don't apply "butch-femme" to gay men as I have yet to meet any whom have identified with those terms. If I do, then I shall.

I don't apply this term to heterosexual couples because ( for me) it seems redundant or silly.

I don't apply this term to FTM's ( whom have transitioned and claim the id of "man" or "male" ) as they are no longer in (in my opinion) "butch", they are man/ male.

For me, this works best. May not be the same for others.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.


thanks yes, that's what I ment. I see many people not into butch-femme dynamic opening doors, paying for meals, cleaning the house etc. Things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" (aka traditional 50's middle america stuff. That's not judgement by the way for those who dig it). That's not it for me *because* my partner and I don't do gender division of things. Butches take out the trash/femmes wash the dishes. That kind of thing. Nor is it "butch manners" because she doesn't have any. She spoils me, but not in any way that I don't see other couples doing for each other in non-butch-femme ID'd couples.

SO I can't say, for me, that butch-femme dynamic is about anything else but sex.

For someone else, that may be absurd. But since I can't point at my partner and say "oh it's cause she treats me with such care and she's such a gentleman..." cause, y'know, butch-femme doesn't have the corner on that. i've met a ton of non ID's and femmes I enjoy being spoiled and treated sweetly by in a... way that I used to think only butches did.

So I can't nail it to anything but the brass knobs, for me.

[Strappie]

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

Not at all UofMfan... I mostly just want to know how you all explain the dynamic.

[Strappie]

Howdy Scrappie! You write just fine! I would love to hear what it means to you as well.

For me, I see it as an attraction dynamic between women whom identify as butch attracted to women whom identify as femme. And vice- versa. Pretty much sums up the simple definition for me.

Now.. that said, I agree with honeybarb and others above in that identifying myself as a butch woman, does not attach itself to any specific "role mechanics" nor do I see femme attached to any specific mechanics. Read: Butch doesn't just take out trash. mow yard ( although this butch enjoys those things) and femme does not mean " keep away from power tools" because my femme mate is handy as hell. it doesn't mean "butch= breadwinner/ femme= homemaker".. because it is exactly the opposite in our home.

I don't apply "butch-femme" to gay men as I have yet to meet any whom have identified with those terms. If I do, then I shall.

I don't apply this term to heterosexual couples because ( for me) it seems redundant or silly.

I don't apply this term to FTM's ( whom have transitioned and claim the id of "man" or "male" ) as they are no longer in (in my opinion) "butch", they are man/ male.

For me, this works best. May not be the same for others.

Thanks Jess,

I do identify as Butch but I haven't given up my woman card either. I guess I am still a woman that's Butch. Some of my friends just don't understand the B-F Dynamic. I have so many Fem on Fem friends it's hard for them to see this. They ask questions without assaulting me and sometimes I just don't have the answers I feel as though is a good representation.

So I guess I'm just trying to listen and hear others explanations.

I will give you my explanation of it in a few.. Biggest Loser is on... lol

[Gemme]

For me, I LOVE the butch femme dynamic....and it is more to me than the apperance or "duties" that femme/butch implies..
The only way I can explain it is to talk about the connection in terms of "energies" my energy is firery and it seeks out a cooling energy. While I have dated Femme women as well, it seems that I find that "coolness" more often in butches.
For me the dynamic is often spiritual in that I feel like I am balanced regardless of who picks up the check or opens the door. *now I DO enjoy having my doors opened and someone to take out the trash, but thats isnt what I am attracted to in the B-F dynamic.
Now every butch and Femme is diffrent, but there is a unique "swagger" that draws me in like a moth to a flame....
A few years ago there was a song that had a verse that kinda sums up how I feel about the butchh femme dynamic....
I'm a movement by myself.
But I'm a force when we're together
I'm good all by myself.
But baby you, you make me better
~You Make Me Better ft Ne-Yo by Fabolous~

Please excuse all spelling and gramatical errors as im typing while half asleep......:runforhills:

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

[Strappie]

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

Heartbreak Kid and Gemmie,
thank you to me this is what I was looking for. Gemmie I have to agree about some days I'm this and some days I'm that... But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.Thank you!!

HB...

Hi btw it's been a long time since I've seen you around. It's good to see you!! I don't disagree with your explanation at all either I believe that we are who we are with each person that comes along.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Hi straps!

I think so too.

I'm really thinking about this. of course I can't answer for anyone else... only me and my expereinces.

every relationship, including butch-butch, femme-femme, non-ID-trans, kitchensink-genderqueer, is going to have a type of ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies."

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

answer something for me straps... why do the femme-femme friends of yours "not get" your relationship? what's "not to get?" it's a relationship between people who care about each other.

Are they questioning your attractions? what exactly are they not "getting." I have plenty of non-butch-femme couple friends and it's not that they "don't get it" in that they don't understand my relationships... it's that they "don't give a shit" to most of a degree what my relationships are and that they "don't get" why I want only one kind (to them) partner. they don't care mind you, it's just not within their realm of expereince and they don't care enough to ask me about it - mostly.

when explaining it, it hasn't been me explaining the "butch-femme dynamic" as I don't think it's a universal, so why bother. However, it *has* been me explaining that my primary attraction is for X with a choice of varients in 1 through 600 different possibilites.

To be super honest, the only people I've run into in the past 7 years interested in the whys of butch-femme or even a particular ID has beeen those within the group in question.

Or newly out/very young

what exactly did they say to you that made you feel you wanted to explain your relationship dynamics with your girlfriends to them? (not an attack, just a wonder/sincere curiosity)

Nice to see you!!

[SuperFemme]

I agree with the energy qualifier. Some energies compliment each other and draw out that ying/yang thing that poets keep trying to describe. There are not words that can nail it quite right.

Intellectual intercourse, is first for me. The dance of the b/f dynamic can vary and evolve for me, because it is always a new and different thing. Swagger...somebody mentioned it. I cannot capture the essence of that swgger but I know it when I see it. Cocked eyebrow, eyes that have conversations with my soul without ever uttering a word. Oh. Yum.

I don't care for the stereotypes that some attribute to the b/f dynamic. It is crazy to me to try and bottle up and sell something that cannot be replicated without ownership.

Make me smile. Lavish me in your laughter. Split open your pain and bleed on me. Hold me whilst I bleed on you. Make me feel safe in a way that only you can. Surrender and let me love you....

Because nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to the center. Of anything.

[Strappie]

Hi straps!

I think so too.

I'm really thinking about this. of course I can't answer for anyone else... only me and my expereinces.

every relationship, including butch-butch, femme-femme, non-ID-trans, kitchensink-genderqueer, is going to have a type of ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies."

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

answer something for me straps... why do the femme-femme friends of yours "not get" your relationship? what's "not to get?" it's a relationship between people who care about each other.

Are they questioning your attractions? what exactly are they not "getting." I have plenty of non-butch-femme couple friends and it's not that they "don't get it" in that they don't understand my relationships... it's that they "don't give a shit" to most of a degree what my relationships are and that they "don't get" why I want only one kind (to them) partner. they don't care mind you, it's just not within their realm of expereince and they don't care enough to ask me about it - mostly.

when explaining it, it hasn't been me explaining the "butch-femme dynamic" as I don't think it's a universal, so why bother. However, it *has* been me explaining that my primary attraction is for X with a choice of varients in 1 through 600 different possibilites.

To be super honest, the only people I've run into in the past 7 years interested in the whys of butch-femme or even a particular ID has beeen those within the group in question.

Or newly out/very young

what exactly did they say to you that made you feel you wanted to explain your relationship dynamics with your girlfriends to them? (not an attack, just a wonder/sincere curiosity)

Nice to see you!!

HB...

Well my friends and I are a very close group and they are learning along with me learning from them. For instance, in the last 6 months I've taken more of my friends "Shopping" to help their sex life with their partners. I love it, it's fun for me to teach my friends about the "Adult Toy" world, mainly "strap-ons." It's like a new world for them. We are very open about sex, relationships and life. We talk about things that my guess is some people wouldn't touch. So when they ask me what it is about the dynamic that makes it so wonderful for me, it's like I freeze and can't come up with the words.

Like how do you go about explaining to someone new that you'd like to date what your preferences are in sex, in life, in a relationship? Those are some questions that come up.

Sorry it's hard for me to express myself. Sometimes so many things come into my head and I can't always scrabble them to make it come out the way I need it to. (things I'm working) *smile*

[Strappie]

SuperFemme.....

Make me smile. Lavish me in your laughter. Split open your pain and bleed on me. Hold me whilst I bleed on you. Make me feel safe in a way that only you can. Surrender and let me love you....

Because nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to the center. Of anything.


Well said!!! :toast:

[imperfect_cupcake]

Like how do you go about explaining to someone new that you'd like to date what your preferences are in sex, in life, in a relationship? Those are some questions that come up.

oh! see that's much easier for me to answer than the word "dynamic" for me.

muuuuuuuuuuch easier lol

[Strappie]

oh! see that's much easier for me to answer than the word "dynamic" for me.

muuuuuuuuuuch easier lol

see I can't always get my point across from what it is I'm thinking.. lol

[NJFemmie]

I am still sitting with this question, because I really am not sure what the b/f dynamic (literally) means to me anymore. I am in a LTR that is not comprised of a b/f dynamic - yet, I find the ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies" is more or less the same as when I was in them. I certainly don't dismiss it or condemn it - because the reality is, if I were to be single, there would still be the attraction - but in my case, it boils down to:

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

hmmm ....

[UofMfan]

I got caught up in the arcade and the MA elections so I forgot to reply to this post until now.

Oddly, I thought HB was saying the same thing as you UofM...

Of course I guess it is open to self interpretation. I think the one point we can all agree on is that the B/F dynamic works in our lives in very individualized ways. Snowflakes. No two are alike. It is always snowing on the Planet, no?


It is open to interpretation, as for me, the mere mention that it is not abut those things to HB simply implies that it comes down to those very same things, then what it came down to was sex. Again, to me this implies that the dynamic is about those things. HB simply stated that in HER relationship it wasn't about opening doors and such, but it is inferred that perhaps in another relationship it would be. I am sorry, I am a language geek and as such would not want language to diminish a dynamic that I hold so dear to my heart.

Yeah, so I'm confused because I too thought that was what honeybarbara was trying to impart ... that those particular things don't define the dynamic for her - (but then again, who's to say it doesn't for someone else...)

Interpretation is a slippery little sucker.

Again interpretation, read her post again and perhaps you can see what I saw, then again, perhaps not. I am not arguing with anyone here, I am stating my opinion based on my interpretation of her post. Of course, my interpretation is based not only on the language used but on the things that were implied by said usage.

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.


You obviously misinterpreted my post! Goodness, I feel as if I am speaking a different language. I will stick with the arcade, as I feel my style of communication is not understood here. Ami, I suggest you read my post again, then you may see how I may feel a little frustrated here.

thanks yes, that's what I ment. I see many people not into butch-femme dynamic opening doors, paying for meals, cleaning the house etc. Things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" (aka traditional 50's middle america stuff. That's not judgement by the way for those who dig it). That's not it for me *because* my partner and I don't do gender division of things. Butches take out the trash/femmes wash the dishes. That kind of thing. Nor is it "butch manners" because she doesn't have any. She spoils me, but not in any way that I don't see other couples doing for each other in non-butch-femme ID'd couples.

SO I can't say, for me, that butch-femme dynamic is about anything else but sex.

For someone else, that may be absurd. But since I can't point at my partner and say "oh it's cause she treats me with such care and she's such a gentleman..." cause, y'know, butch-femme doesn't have the corner on that. i've met a ton of non ID's and femmes I enjoy being spoiled and treated sweetly by in a... way that I used to think only butches did.

So I can't nail it to anything but the brass knobs, for me.

I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.


Not at all UofMfan... I mostly just want to know how you all explain the dynamic.

Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps :) You understood me!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.

ok look. many people outside of gender ID land (as in those who ID as butch or femme) it see it the way I explained, about "one person is the boy and one person is the girl" Not my problem or issue that others see my relationship that way. It's not how I live, nor does it affect me.

to make myself absolutely clear and differentiate I wanted people to understand that those who *may* see *thier* dynamic as being about traditional roles, is fine by me jack. I personally don't see MY personal happiness and brand of how I do things being about their way of life either. I know how important yradtional roles are to *some* people. god I can't believe I'm explaining this...

That you don't see your own "dynamic" is about who does what: I'm glad, in my judgey life, no one should see as role-only, personnal judgement (and it's damn rare anyone would do that, even those who are old school wouldn't see it that way) It should be about - in my op - how you get along.

I was pointing out that people in other kinds of relationships all do the same thing as Butch-femme people. Because there are butch-femme people , for some reason, who don't seem to know that.

you wanna make this into connoted inferences in your own brain (mistaken interpretation) of my own way of being in my realtionships and what makes me happy and how your interpretation of my text makes you personally *ill* and *sad*.... dude, completely and utterly your own world of pain. seriously. I won't have nothing doing with that.

is your personal problem. I've already attempted explanation.

and as a point of irritation, I don't care how many people have thanked you for your point of view in you being "right" about misinterpreting my post. how PA is that? It's still wrong. And it's your problem

[NJFemmie]

But .... there are some people who consider the things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" to be a big part of it for them. In fact, I know (and have been with butches) who demand it. I personally, don't agree with those things ... in fact, I am historically known to defy anything considered traditional 50's middle america/stereotypical butch/femme stuff. I also get that it makes your heart ache.

Perhaps the lack of information provided after that statement left it open for misunderstanding.

[imperfect_cupcake]

But .... there are some people who consider the things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" to be a big part of it for them. In fact, I know (and have been with butches) who demand it. I personally, don't agree with those things ... in fact, I am historically known to defy anything considered traditional 50's middle america/stereotypical butch/femme stuff. I also get that it makes your heart ache.

Perhaps the lack of information provided after that statement left it open for misunderstanding.

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?

[NJFemmie]

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?


I totally get you. Seriously.

[Jess]

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?

I do!!! :lawnmower::awww::4femme:


I agree that "energy" is a huge factor in the b-f tango, but submit that it is specifically "butch" energy drawn toward "femme" energy.

[labete]

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

This is largely how I feel about it, too. Complementary energies that, for me, give a kind of balance that works for me and reinforces my energy. I find that I naturally seek a kind of balance, and if the person I'm with is too much like me, my balance can be thrown off.

When I had my first female lover, she was very feminine, and I found myself feeling the yin side of me rise more, which (for me, myself, and I, not remotely speaking for anyone else here) subdued my yang in a way that makes me feel less true to myself. I don't like that feeling.

It's not about who opens the door or takes out the trash or cooks or washes, although such acts can be symbolic of the energy exchange if they are meaningful to the people engaging in them. It's about finding someone whose energies balance mine in a way that supports me being true to myself. For me, that means someone whose yin is more prevalent than their yang, and I find that in butches.

[imperfect_cupcake]

lol completely agree but my personal preference for saying that is "I prefer masculine/boyish read women" cause if you are talking to people who don't do butch-femme the whole "energy thing" isn't going to be very helpful as it's not entirely descriptive.

and what's really important, the key thing, for me is that sexually they have a dick and a snatch. that's non-negotiable. it won't work if that's not there.

all of the rest? is personality and interaction and how we work as two people. People vary so much in what's important to them and how they work that I can't assign "I like butches cuz they ____." Cause they don't. Not all of them. And probably only a certain percent do.

And that's REALLY apparent when you go to different countries and see how they express their feminine and masculine grooves.

[amiyesiam]

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.


I have reread this. I think we are coming to the same point from different sides. My point and some others point is exactly the same. The dance/the energy/ etc is much more than some outward signs.

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.


I got caught up in the arcade and the MA elections so I forgot to reply to this post until now.



It is open to interpretation, as for me, the mere mention that it is not abut those things to HB simply implies that it comes down to those very same things, then what it came down to was sex. Again, to me this implies that the dynamic is about those things. HB simply stated that in HER relationship it wasn't about opening doors and such, but it is inferred that perhaps in another relationship it would be. I am sorry, I am a language geek and as such would not want language to diminish a dynamic that I hold so dear to my heart.

Language is what we use to communicate. Language isn't always able to convey the emotions fully. I am femme my husband butch. I also don't want that dynamic diminished. But in cherishing what I hold dear I personally dont want to diminish others dynamic.



Again interpretation, read her post again and perhaps you can see what I saw, then again, perhaps not. I am not arguing with anyone here, I am stating my opinion based on my interpretation of her post. Of course, my interpretation is based not only on the language used but on the things that were implied by said usage.



You obviously misinterpreted my post! Goodness, I feel as if I am speaking a different language. I will stick with the arcade, as I feel my style of communication is not understood here. Ami, I suggest you read my post again, then you may see how I may feel a little frustrated here.



I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.



Honestly, in no way being disrespectful, what this comes across as saying is:
I feel and experiece the BF dynamic in a way others do not (perhaps more strongly, more deeply) I can not bare to discuss this with those who do not understand.
Again, honestly, that might fly other places, but we are on a BF site, full of BF people, all of whom care very very deeply about BF dynamics.
If you chose to leave fine do so. But don't blame me or anyone else.
Also it seems to me that the folks in here were/are willing to discuss this with everyone. No one has to agree but we can all learn



Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps :) You understood me!



I also understood you.
As a couple our BF dynamic is joyously wonderful. That is why we took the time to go to Canada and get married.
I think what I want to say is that while this is special for me other types of relationships also experience this. The joy of finding the right person is in fact a beautiful thing, be they straight, gay, lesbian, trans, bi etc.
I can not say BF is "THE Best" I can only say that it is "The Best" for butches and femmes.

[SuperFemme]

Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps :) You understood me!

Isn't this thread called "What does the B/F dynamic mean to you"?

I myself am frustrated that you have come in here being sad and ill about those of us willing to share, yet you never speak to the OP's question. Because I am going to go out on a limb and say that it is very personal and complex to everyone.

Seeing things more than one way isn't a personal attack. It is a discussion. I thought. So I hope you do come back and share.

[SuperFemme]

I would also like to add that some of the things HB mentioned are very important to some B/F folks. Poke around and you'll find many *old school* butches and femmes. They are just as fabulous as any of us I think.

I think a giant leap was made in suggesting that it *comes down* to open doors. Like that is the defining thing that makes any relationship or is the top rung in the ladder of B/F dynamics.

But you cannot deny that it is important to some. Doing so would erase and minimize those who DO find opening doors a very complex and personal part of their dynamic.

[imperfect_cupcake]

But you cannot deny that it is important to some.

I didn't though. and yes, people want their partner liking that they do X (whatever x is in terms of how they and their potential/present matches work).

aren't we all that way? every last person on the planet? have some things that we need in our relationships because of the way we work?

My partner and I make a *great* team. things she can't do, I can. Things I'm shit at, she's well versed in. I need that, personally, in a partner. Someone very complimentary to where I lack, they compliment. Instead of compete -though we both get that way when we ride our bikes.

I get it.

edit to add... I see you meant general you, I think now, not me specifically. lol sorry.

[Gemme]

I do!!! :lawnmower::awww::4femme:


I agree that "energy" is a huge factor in the b-f tango, but submit that it is specifically "butch" energy drawn toward "femme" energy.

And vise versa! :)

This is largely how I feel about it, too. Complementary energies that, for me, give a kind of balance that works for me and reinforces my energy. I find that I naturally seek a kind of balance, and if the person I'm with is too much like me, my balance can be thrown off.

When I had my first female lover, she was very feminine, and I found myself feeling the yin side of me rise more, which (for me, myself, and I, not remotely speaking for anyone else here) subdued my yang in a way that makes me feel less true to myself. I don't like that feeling.

Yes, yes, YES! The more feminine my partner was, the more masculine (in term of energies...even though my dress and mannerisms did not change) I felt and I felt I lost that connection to my yang. I like my yang and I didn't like the feeling that that situation gave me. I relate to this part very much.

It's not about who opens the door or takes out the trash or cooks or washes, although such acts can be symbolic of the energy exchange if they are meaningful to the people engaging in them. It's about finding someone whose energies balance mine in a way that supports me being true to myself. For me, that means someone whose yin is more prevalent than their yang, and I find that in butches.

Eloquently stated, labete, and I find that that is how I function best in a relationship as well.

[Dragonfly]

What does it mean to me personally....

Well, I had lived my life doing things the easy way from age 17 to 30. I knew I liked women, and I knew I was not a typical feminine woman. But I could live inside the hetero world raising my kids without fear of an abusive person taking my daughter away from me. Until 2006, when I met a butch Id'ed (female pronoun) lesbian woman. But before her, my girlfriends were loved and I never had multiple girlfriends at the same time. They all had Id'ed bisexual like I did. Comittment to a woman meant sharing her with her guy for me back then. I had realized I wasn't bi a few years before meeting my first butch but had not been out looking for someone new. Hehe we happened to come across each other on myspace and since we had a mutual friend, my ex girlfriend's brother was good friends with her.... I met her in real world. Took along Foo of course, just in case you know. I was surprised she liked me and vice versa.

I had never been attracted to a butch woman before her and came to online community to learn more about it. In the process I began to learn about myself. I had been described as butch for a long time. Tomboy is a word I struggle with and debate using for myself around here, but in the hetero world it was part of my ID and butch was used to describe me by those around me. I am still not able to say I am one or the other, Butch or Femme. Everyone's interpretation is about energy and sexual tastes. I can't read myself confidently that it is accurate compared to other's. I am pretty versatile sexually and maybe kinky so that makes it more confusing. It is all just so confusing for me still after 4 years. I only know I belong here because I am sexually attracted to the people who belong here.

Some days I just want to start a vote thread and get everyone to weigh in and name me so that I can stop being afraid of being judged as NOT one or the other. Oh yeah I am pretty messed up.

It's like, if I ID as butch and hit it off with someone who is only attracted to butch ... and then they meet me and are angry or disappointed that my "energy" they percieve doesn't match what I portray myself to be. Will they dislike me wearing make up? Will they have expectations sexually that they do not like to reciprocate?

Or if I say I ID as femme and a butch and I hit it off... will they meet me and feel mislead because I wear men's clothes a lot and do not look like what they find attractive ABOUT femmes? Will they be like one of my experiences and (pressure me) want me to present myself more feminine in appearance? Will they let me do the sexual things I enjoy doing with my lover... or only want to do them to me?

Yes all of those things are subject to individual people not the ID's. Yes they are stereotypical. No I dont think of butch and femme as sexual acts but as gender Id. Yes, some people do think of them as sexuality and as what happens in bed. Am I confused by ALL of this? Yes.

But the dynamic itself DRAWS me in. I don't feel like this about any other lesbian related community. Here I feel free to be me, whoever that is.... to figure it all out, and to know that there are people like me that ID as many different things in the community.

Plus, no one here will think that wearing men's clothes means I want to be a man or am feeding into mysogyny against the equality of women by embracing my masculinity. I am not asserting my misguided superiority needs and am proud to be a woman and to have feminine things about me too. I just never let people put me into a box of anything woman are "supposed to" and are "not supposed to" be, do, say, or dress like. I resisted being oppressed and that has nothing to do with the butch femme dynamic except that the dynamic to me is the embodiment of that resistance. No matter what I ID as, butch or femme. :flasher:

Thanks for being community in the best sense of the word.

[Martina]

The dynamic happens for me when a butch and i read each other as butch and femme. It may have a sexual feel or not. But it always implies mutual recognition and respect. It means we know something about one another. To be recognized as a femme in a world where i am read as straight, to have someone understand that, to know that, in principal, the person finds that desirable -- that is a fine thing. Whether they open doors or whatever is irrelevant. Sometimes i get a zing out of that stuff, sometimes not.

Outright disrespect from a butch (for no reason) does hurt a little more than asshat behavior from someone else. i think it's because there is supposed to be a social contract between us as butches and femmes. We know each other for an important part of who we are, and we are supposed to honor that.

Sexually, i sleep with people who make me feel MORE like a woman. There are femmes who can do that. i have been with butches and femmes who bring out the boy in me. i like the boy, but not in bed.

[MainelyButch]

Dragonfly, I really got alot out of what you said here, this is pretty broad conversation, and one that seems to be happening alot lately within our realm. It's very hard to explain the "butch-femme dynamic" I think, and very hard to explain how it incorporates into one's life...at least I find this to be the case with me. People ask what makes me butch...well I never thought about it until all these labels started to pop up in the culture...which I think was perhaps brought on the the invention of our internet communications and connections. Prior to that I never gave it much thought personally. But when you are behind a screen and trying to describe yourself, it's easier for me to just say "hey, I'm butch...pretty stereotypically so" but I didn't do much to "make" myself butch, it just turned out that way. I obviously have more male traits dominating my personality and physical looks than I do female. And in today's world they call that "butch" I guess! Anyway, I like who I am, I enjoy being butch as it's just my natural state of being. And this particular butch enjoys dating femmes and enjoys the b-f "dynamic"....or as I rather call it ...the "discussion or the dance".

Thanks for that piece of writing Dragonfly, got me to thinking for sure! :)

[Andrew, Jr.]

B-F for me is the ying/yang of living. It just is. Everyone has their own id, and finding the right mate for yourself is something that takes compatability, love, and work - hard work. All relationships require that.

[Kate09]

The butch/femme dynamic, for me, is where i feel perfectly at home. It feels right, and makes sense to me. I've dated people who dont identify as butch, and it's not the same. There is a certain..balance..to things when i am in a b/f relationship.

I do not believe b/f relationships have to mirror male/female relationships. I HATE being asked who's the guy, or even worse, just having someone assume the person i am with "obviously is". I hate having to justify that being with a butch woman is NOT a small step away from being with a man. And I also hate explaining that just because my date has short hair and wears mens clothing does not mean she wants to be a man. (even tho her dick is prolly bigger than most of those inquiring..)

What burns me the most are some of these comments coming from people with whom i supposedly share a community.

I like what I like. I prefer a b/f dynamic in my relationships. It may not be "hip" and it may not be in fashion, but it's what feels good, and i think that's what really matters.

[AtLast]

The B-F "dynamic" for me is really based on mutual energy that meets each other and well... clicks. In no way do stereotypical roles fit within this dynamic for me.