Transgender Professional Athletes

[Medusa]

I have be reticent to post this thread for the last few days but I feel that this is a super interesting and important topic and truly would like to have a discussion about this.
Posting this in the Trans Zone, not because I only want Trans folks to respond (I want *everyone* to feel free to post) but because I feel that this is an issue central to the Trans community (and really, all of our communities).

I read an article recently about Professional MMA fighter Fallon Fox. Fallon is one of the very first Transgender athletes to compete in MMA fighting competitions openly. Naturally, she competes in the female category for MMA fighting.

This has sparked some extreme controversy and some pretty Transphobic comments from folks within the MMA league and even from fans. Many folks feel that since Fallon was born with male parts, she should not qualify to fight against folks born into Female bodies. (and please forgive me if I am being clumsy with language here, trying my best to use the most respectful and correct language).

I'm curious what folks here think. I know this is not just a cut and dry "yes or no" answer and I am still educating myself on this issue but welcome any thoughts.

I believe there was some other controversy a few years back with a Transgender runner competing in the female cross-country marathon and a potentially "unfair" advantage. I'll try to dig up that information so it can be part of this discussion.

As always, please remain respectful!

[Kelt]

I will come back with a more thoughtful post after I look into this, but my first hit; It's deja vu all over again.

I was 15 in 1976 when Renee Richards was denied entry into the US Open, in 1977 she made me think life could be possible when the courts overturned it.

[DapperButch]

For me it is pretty simple.

If the male bodied person (assumingly XY) is on testosterone blockers, they can play/should play women's sports.

If the female bodied person (assumingly XX), is on testosterone, they can/should play men's sports.

It's the T that gives the advantage/takes away the physical advantages.

[DapperButch]

I looked up Fallon Fox (I had never heard of her). Her testicles were removed, so it is not like she could even "pretend" to be on T blockers. She most likely has less testosterone than most cis females now, actually.

[curlyredhead]

Since I am extremely athletic. I am currently training for a half Ironman. I get asked a lot since I have been competing for the last 6 years in Triathlons, Marathons, and Bike rides do you submit a form stating your use of Testosterone? For me personally, no I don't. Considering I am an age grouper, and I really don't see myself placing at large events in my age range. I have a lot of health reasons as to why I have never filled out the paperwork for it.

However there are other trans folks out there that can compete at that level, and I think they should report it, but only if it is required. Last time I looked at some documentation requiring that, the use of testosterone wasn't listed.
That may have just been for that particular race.

I think I might have gone off topic a bit, but I fully support Trans Athletes and think they should be allowed fair competition.

[vagina]

http://www.news10.net/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/219859/18.jpg


http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/04/53/045343c736509d56c9375335c3b61418.jpg?itok=1EZfecph

[*Anya*]

http://www.news10.net/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/219859/18.jpg


http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/04/53/045343c736509d56c9375335c3b61418.jpg?itok=1EZfecph

Vagina, could you explain why you posted the pictures?

I don't understand the context.

Thanks.

[Corkey]

Without some form of explanation I can only come to the conclusion it was meant as a slight to the Trans community. Still waiting on clarification from the person who posted, but not for long.

[Corkey]

And time's up.

[Medusa]

Vagina-

Please explain the reason behind posting these photos?

Without context, and based on things you have posted elsewhere on the site, I am concerned that you are posting these photos for negative reasons.

To be clear, I don't want that. I don't want a Trans-shaming thread and I don't want this conversation to be ugly or negative.

Thanks,
Mme

[DapperButch]

Since I am extremely athletic. I am currently training for a half Ironman. I get asked a lot since I have been competing for the last 6 years in Triathlons, Marathons, and Bike rides do you submit a form stating your use of Testosterone? For me personally, no I don't. Considering I am an age grouper, and I really don't see myself placing at large events in my age range. I have a lot of health reasons as to why I have never filled out the paperwork for it.

However there are other trans folks out there that can compete at that level, and I think they should report it, but only if it is required. Last time I looked at some documentation requiring that, the use of testosterone wasn't listed.
That may have just been for that particular race.

I think I might have gone off topic a bit, but I fully support Trans Athletes and think they should be allowed fair competition.

But, you compete with the men, right?

The issue is when an xx bodied person uses testosterone (therefore having the muscle mass of xy bodied person) and competes against female. The issue is about unfair advantage.

Personally, I see no reason why you personally should have to share your medical status if you are competing in men's racing. It is not like the cis guys have to share their medical information.

[DapperButch]

Vagina-

Please explain the reason behind posting these photos?

Without context, and based on things you have posted elsewhere on the site, I am concerned that you are posting these photos for negative reasons.

To be clear, I don't want that. I don't want a Trans-shaming thread and I don't want this conversation to be ugly or negative.

Thanks,
Mme

Medusa,

Personally, I would prefer you remove the image, regardless of intent. I don't know any trans* individuals who would want their "before" pictures shown without their prior approval. It is disrespectful.

[Corkey]

I want to publicly thank Medusa for her support of the Trans community. It takes character to stand up to inequality.

[vagina]

The photos are meant to show what females are supposed to compete against.

Especially in a sport like ultimate fighting, it's dangerous to put a transitioned male bodied person in the ring or cage with a female. Fallon probably has that muscular body working out 1 hour a day. A female would have to devote her whole life and 8 hours a day to training to get a muscular physique that is nowhere near Fallon's.

[Corkey]

The photos are meant to show what females are supposed to compete against.

Especially in a sport like ultimate fighting, it's dangerous to put a transitioned male bodied person in the ring or cage with a female. Fallon probably has that muscular body working out 1 hour a day. A female would have to devote her whole life and 8 hours a day to training to get a muscular physique that is nowhere near Fallon's.

There's where the science doesn't meet reality. Once the testicles are removed there is no hormone produced. Epic fail.

[DapperButch]

The photos are meant to show what females are supposed to compete against.

Especially in a sport like ultimate fighting, it's dangerous to put a transitioned male bodied person in the ring or cage with a female. Fallon probably has that muscular body working out 1 hour a day. A female would have to devote her whole life and 8 hours a day to training to get a muscular physique that is nowhere near Fallon's.

WHAT females are supposed to compete against?

Oh lord, this is going to go down hill really fucking fast.

[DapperButch]

The photos are meant to show what females are supposed to compete against.

Especially in a sport like ultimate fighting, it's dangerous to put a transitioned male bodied person in the ring or cage with a female. Fallon probably has that muscular body working out 1 hour a day. A female would have to devote her whole life and 8 hours a day to training to get a muscular physique that is nowhere near Fallon's.

She has no testicles. She actually has less testosterone than you do, as she can no longer produce any. YOU are making testosterone. SHE (that would be transgender female), isn't.

SO, her body is from working as hard or harder than the other women.

[Allison W]

She has no testicles. She actually has less testosterone than you do, as she can no longer produce any. YOU are making testosterone. SHE (that would be transgender female), isn't.

SO, her body is from working as hard or harder than the other women.

Actually, her adrenal glands can still produce testosterone, but this is true for non-trans women as well.

[Corkey]

Actually, her adrenal glands can still produce testosterone, but this is true for non-trans women as well.

At a reduced rate, not at the rate of a cismale, thank you for joining the discussion.

[Allison W]

At a reduced rate, not at the rate of a cismale, thank you for joining the discussion.

I'd assumed that was implied in the qualifier that it's also true for non-trans women, whom no one argues produce testosterone at the same rate as men, but thank you for the clarification.

[curlyredhead]

But, you compete with the men, right?

The issue is when an xx bodied person uses testosterone (therefore having the muscle mass of xy bodied person) and competes against female. The issue is about unfair advantage.

Personally, I see no reason why you personally should have to share your medical status if you are competing in men's racing. It is not like the cis guys have to share their medical information.

Yes Dapper I compete with the men. That's where I belong. I think that a female that is trans should also be allowed to compete with women.

[Corkey]

I'd assumed that was implied in the qualifier that it's also true for non-trans women, whom no one argues produce testosterone at the same rate as men, but thank you for the clarification.

LOL not for my edification I assure you. *

[DapperButch]

Actually, her adrenal glands can still produce testosterone, but this is true for non-trans women as well.

Yes, ok, I went a bit extreme with that. What I was trying to get across is that it is likely that the cis women she is fighting are producing more testosterone than her. Or at least that is my understanding?

At a reduced rate, not at the rate of a cismale, thank you for joining the discussion.

Thanks for the follow up, as I wouldn't want that point lost...as that reason for the argument that Fox should be allowed to participate with women fighters.

[DapperButch]

Yes Dapper I compete with the men. That's where I belong. I think that a female that is trans should also be allowed to compete with women.

Exactly!!!

[candy_coated_bitch]

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

[Allison W]

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

[Gentle Tiger]

Great topic as always Medusa!

An interview with Fallon was aired on Brian Gumble's show, Real Sports. It was interesting. And it should be noted that her winning streak was ended by a woman who was born in a female body. Fallon's loss was because she came up against a better opponent. Period! Clearly there was no "advantage".

I think the only thing she or any other athlete should be judged on is what she does in the sport. Her record does not indicate that she has any advantage. I found this article and it somewhat articulates what think on the subject. Article (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2038764-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-and-her-slowly-fading-fifteen-minutes-of-fame)

Do I think she or any other transgendered athlete is obligated to disclose personal information? No. Why? Because I still have not seen scientific data that shows she has any kind of advantage. And because what's in her bra or shorts is no one's business. She transitioned. She went through everything to become and compete as who she felt she was.

As to the matter of the photo Vagina posted, (paraphrasing here) so we could see what she was competing against...

1. There seems to be an assumption about what MTF players would look like and how they would perform. Not all MTF basketball players would be tall or taller than women who were born female. And there are people who were born in male bodies who were short (5' 5") who were able to out leap taller and more muscular players. Ex. Tyrone Curtis "Muggsy" Bogues. Somehow, he was able to dunk on his competitors yet he did not look like who he was supposed to compete against.

And that's all I will say on that for the moment.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

[Corkey]

Anyone old enough to remember the 7'2" Russian BB player who came here to participate in an exhibition prior to women's BB being an Olympic sport?? I do, not her exact name because I still don't know how to pronounce it, I played against her, and she was a she no matter the crap that was written about her. The point here is that it doesn't matter what other people say about Transgender people and what sports we can play and whom we can play with or against. Sportsmanship requires nothing but doing ones personal best and having the integrity to play by the rules of the game. Everything else is a distraction.

[Corkey]

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

This years Little League, Mo'ne (sp?) would be a prime example of the change in sports.

[vagina]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.

http://www.leewardlepersonaltrainer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/BodyFat1.jpg

http://sdgln.com/files/imagecache/articlesm/chris_tina_250_long-13414.jpg

Seriously?

http://www.muscle-stars.com/images/stories/musclestars/championships/2011/2011-06_NAC_World/Finals/Part-14/2011-06_nac_world_10180.jpg

[Corkey]

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[JDeere]

I know a Transman who competes with cismen in weight lifting and he works just as hard or harder to obtain the goals and his medals.

I agree with Corkey, Why the hell not?

[vagina]

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

[Corkey]

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

Why the hell are you worried about a hypothetical? Who died and made you gender police? Trans people can do and be whoever they want and your approval is not required!

[Gemme]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?



Yes.

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

Why not? If someone has transitioned or is transitioning, they are on hormones to help them make that transition physically from point A to point B. For M to F, that translates to less testosterone and more estrogen as well as anti-androgens.

Here is a link about the Feminization Regimen (http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_program_4.asp) that may help clear up some questions.

At that time, the penis and testicles would be irrelevant to the competition at hand. Meaning, they give the person no advantage. That's what I assume you are having an issue with; a perceived advantage that the transitioned/ing person would have. Correct?

If anything, they could be a hindrance to the person, given that the outside would still not match the inside and that can really take a toll. We are all affected by physical things on a mental and emotional level. Everyone. That's even more so for athletes, especially high performance and high level ones.

[DapperButch]

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

If they are on testosterone blockers, yes.

I am honestly wondering if you are getting the main point here? If a trans woman's testosterone levels are equal to any other females (due to castration OR testosterone blockers), then yes, they should compete with other women. If you had them compete with the men, they would do no better than any other female (natal), so it wouldn't be fair (and in the case of contact sports, like boxing, get pretty hurt. It would be no different than a natal male hitting his natal female wife).

If a female bodied person is taking testosterone to transition to male (therefore their testosterone levels are in the male testosterone range), then they should compete with the men. They should not compete with the women because they have an unfair advantage (and again, would have the strength of any man hitting a woman). But, with your argument (it is about what we have in our pants), this is what indeed would happen. Since the guy has a vagina, he should be thrown in a ring with women he can bat about. It has to go both ways. You can't just keep trans women out of women's sports, without keeping trans men IN female sports. Do you think that this is how it should go?

Instead of just putting up random pictures, how about taking any one of our arguments, quote it, and argue it? Have a conversation about it. That is the point of the message board.

[DapperButch]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.


Seriously?



Right, which is why it would be stupid for any person who has the testosterone levels of a female (a transwoman), to compete against men. They would lose.

[Medusa]

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

We have had numerous complaints and reports about your posts and it is feeling to me like your participation in threads involving topics of Trans-anything is negative almost 100% of the time ("negative" meaning unwelcoming, suspect, or flat-out Transphobic).

I do not want the folks on this site who identify as Trans to have to wade through ugly postings about "mutilations" or non-consensual photos of pre and post Trans lives when used to demonstrate how someone "is really still a man".

From here on out, please confine your postings to threads on this site that DO NOT include discussion of Trans lives.

Thanks for your cooperation,
Mme

[Allison W]

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

I went and looked. Someone's still stuck in the "WE'RE LOSING OUR BUTCHES" (emphasis on the possessive, like she owns other people's bodies and is entitled to pass judgment on what they do with them) scare.

[JDeere]

*FACEPALM*

Shaking my head, why the hell does it matter what is between someone's legs when they are transitioning? Gender is NOT about genitals.

[Gentle Tiger]

Some comments in this thread came to mind as I was reading this article.

When you don't fit the norm (http://mic.com/articles/98884/this-star-athlete-has-been-stripped-of-her-olympic-chances-for-the-most-unfair-reason)

[fever]

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............




First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[Corkey]

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............






First off, I was coming from my me my place, secondly, how I respond to people who are Transphobic is really none of your business. Would you like a smiley with that?:byebye:

[nycfem]

Fever and Corkey, please take it private if you want to continue back-and-forthing, but let's get this thread back on topic: Transgender Professional Athletes. Thank you.

Jennifer (Moderator)