The Psychology of Online Dating

[knight]

The psychology of online dating
Face to face dating in general can be very positive, difficult, exciting, disappointing and at times energy consuming. Add online to the mix and you have a variety of factors to add to the list above. I speak here only from experience and opinion. I claim not, that I am an expert of any kind, I am only feeling my way through the experience just like everyone else.
Regardless of identity, most human beings experience dating at one time or another in their lives. There seems to be this interesting stigma (again I speak only from experience) when it comes to dating in the Butch/Femme world.
Again regardless of preferences within the dynamic of Butch/Femme… dating seems to be an “ugly” word. My approach to dating is simple, is to try to connect with people of like interest. If I find myself in a position where I simply lack capacity for investing time in a serious relationship I am very transparent and forth coming about it. When I feel completely open to the idea of a serious relationship, it starts with dating.
I have had the great pleasure of dating amazing women online and truly enjoyed the exchange that we had. I am sometimes baffled by the opinions that I hear of individuals like me. Dating someone is not a marriage certificate, it is simply dating. My approach to dating or choosing a partner has never come from a scarcity model. We all have a lot to offer, and one should simply never settle just because we think this is as good as it gets. The dating pool is a large pool, it’s not this desperate place where one feels that they have to attach to the first person that gives them attention.
I think the process of dating allows you to know the individual, and not just go on the initial infatuation. Deciding to end or continue dating is a big decision that requires a lot of care. Having to decide that an individual that you are dating is simply not going to work out is always difficult and disappointing. A lot of energy and time are spent while dating someone, emotions as well as intimacy have been shared. But to put it simply, regardless of the pain, the loss and the disappointment, isn’t this why we actually date people instead of marry them from hello?
Dating is an exchange, both individuals gain from the experience and if it does not work out, they both feel the loss.
I would love to have a dialogue with others on this topic, so what is your psychology on online dating?

[girl_dee]

i will come back to this but one thing that is a positive for me.. is history.

Example..

i meet you in a bar.. i have no idea who you are.. how you treat femmes... if you are a player..

i meet you in a chatroom on this site... i probably know you from the threads... or reunions etc... i can see a history.. i can see if you and i have similar interests or opinions.. etc

if you ARE a player it will likely show up online somewhere...

a LOT of information can be gained when you decide to date someone online.


GREAT thread Knight!

[BullDog]

We certainly do see lots of professions of love online and then a little while later some of the same people are professing their great love for someone else. However, I don't think that automatically means everyone is desperate or settling for the first person who comes along.

Everyone goes at their own pace and in their own way.

Some people can know each other for a very long time and barely scratch the surface of knowing each other, whereas other people can have very indepth conversations, correspondence and other means of communicating and connecting where they know each other quite well in a fairly short amount of time. Obviously the more time spent getting to know each other the better and especially in person. But it varies widely.

I think the quality of the connection and communication of getting to know someone is the most important, although time is definitely important too. As I like to say - the proof is in the pudding. I want my relationship to last for the rest of my life so the proof is when it does. I guess I won't know until I'm ready to go, lol.

With long distance relationships it can be very difficult to have significant amounts of in-person time together. A romantic week or weekend is a very nice dating experience but still will not ultimately tell you what day to day life will be like. It is nice when there is a situation when a couple can spend a significant amount of time in person together that lies somewhere in between a date and commitment of living together. This could of course come after some dates. But again it is going to depend on the people's situation. There is no one approach.

[BullDog]

i will come back to this but one thing that is a positive for me.. is history.

Example..

i meet you in a bar.. i have no idea who you are.. how you treat femmes... if you are a player..

i meet you in a chatroom on this site... i probably know you from the threads... or reunions etc... i can see a history.. i can see if you and i have similar interests or opinions.. etc

if you ARE a player it will likely show up online somewhere...

a LOT of information can be gained when you decide to date someone online.


GREAT thread Knight!

dee I agree but you have to be careful about where your glean your information because there is a lot of internet gossip and stuff you hear online about people that is totally untrue. I am definitely not saying you listen to gossip, just saying it can be misleading.

However, yes people often leave trails.

On the positive side, one of the ways I have gotten interested in femmes often is from reading and enjoying their posts. And having a shared history of online community like this one can definitely be a positive and informative thing.

[Lyte]

SUBSCRIBED

Will come back to this one. Interesting! :)

[Lyte]

Again... interesting!

I do not date online and/or at a distance.

Despite our best efforts... however good or careful we may think we are... there is no substitution for the level of communication ... or the level of intimacy... that comes from looking someone in the eye and/or seeing the expression on their face.

It was established long ago that human beings communicate primarily (read: best) through non-verbal cues. As well as I may think I'm able to communicate my thoughts, my feelings verbally it would be difficult to hold someone else accountable for their understanding of me if we are not (more often than not) face to face.

A quick Google...

Nonverbal Communication

Behavior and elements of speech aside from the words themselves that transmit meaning. Non-verbal communication includes pitch, speed, tone and volume of voice, gestures and facial expressions, body posture, stance, and proximity to the listener, eye movements and contact, and dress and appearance.

Research suggests that only 5 percent effect is produced by the spoken word, 45 percent by the tone, inflexion, and other elements of voice, and 50 percent by body language, movements, eye contact, etc.

I've no idea if those percentages are correct.... but the ratios are about right. The point being... probably 85% - 95% of what's needed to fully understand another human being requires us to be face-to face.



P.S. To be clear ... I will however flirt online... and/or ... at a distance! ;)

[Lyte]

Excellent point and observation there. I agree, it's less likely desperation or settling that moves someone from one person to another in a short period of time. Dating online and/or at a long distance carries with it a level of anonymity which can be hugely comforting for some people.

Speaking in general...

Sure, you may have met a few times ... dated a few times... done some other things a few times (;)) ... BUT... the harsh and painful realities that exist when things go south are significantly less when the person doesn't live near you and you don't have to see them again. <--- this "out" if you will ....from the emotional pain ... or just the inconvenience of a breakup ... makes online/distance relationships ... for some individuals... disposable.

We certainly do see lots of professions of love online and then a little while later some of the same people are professing their great love for someone else. However, I don't think that automatically means everyone is desperate or settling for the first person who comes along.

[Gemme]

Again... interesting!

I do not date online and/or at a distance.

Despite our best efforts... however good or careful we may think we are... there is no substitution for the level of communication ... or the level of intimacy... that comes from looking someone in the eye and/or seeing the expression on their face.

It was established long ago that human beings communicate primarily (read: best) through non-verbal cues. As well as I may think I'm able to communicate my thoughts, my feelings verbally it would be difficult to hold someone else accountable for their understanding of me if we are not (more often than not) face to face.

A quick Google...

Nonverbal Communication

Behavior and elements of speech aside from the words themselves that transmit meaning. Non-verbal communication includes pitch, speed, tone and volume of voice, gestures and facial expressions, body posture, stance, and proximity to the listener, eye movements and contact, and dress and appearance.

Research suggests that only 5 percent effect is produced by the spoken word, 45 percent by the tone, inflexion, and other elements of voice, and 50 percent by body language, movements, eye contact, etc.

I've no idea if those percentages are correct.... but the ratios are about right. The point being... probably 85% - 95% of what's needed to fully understand another human being requires us to be face-to face.



P.S. To be clear ... I will however flirt online... and/or ... at a distance! ;)

Yes, and this is PRECISELY why Skype and FaceTime were invented.

Next excuse?

:cheesy:

[Lyte]

You darlin' are... BRILL! lol

I've never used FaceTime and/or Skype and more importantly... thus far... I've not felt a desire to learn. So, until such time as I feel otherwise... you may call me Benedick ;)

"I will not be sworn but love may transform me to an oyster, but I’ll take my oath on it, till he have made an oyster of me, he shall never make me such a fool. One woman is fair, yet I am well; another is wise, yet I am well; another virtuous, yet I am well; but till all graces be in one woman, one woman shall not come in my grace." Signior Benedick

Please don't misunderstand ... you or anyone else... I'm not criticizing anyone else's love adventure! :)


Yes, and this is PRECISELY why Skype and FaceTime were invented.

Next excuse?

:cheesy:

[cathexis]

Online dating's not for me either. I broke up my previous marriage of 10 years due to the "siren" on the other end of the phone. Within 2 years, I regretted my decision and there was no way to reverse it.

Will flirt, maybe meet, but now I guard my heart with an iron padlock.

Told my Partner that I won't even "chat" except in a group. My choice...too tempting late at night and lonely.

[girl_dee]

dee I agree but you have to be careful about where your glean your information because there is a lot of internet gossip and stuff you hear online about people that is totally untrue. I am definitely not saying you listen to gossip, just saying it can be misleading.

However, yes people often leave trails.

On the positive side, one of the ways I have gotten interested in femmes often is from reading and enjoying their posts. And having a shared history of online community like this one can definitely be a positive and informative thing.

thanks but i am not speaking to gossip.... we all post on these forums and leave our own trails....

[BullDog]

Excellent point and observation there. I agree, it's less likely desperation or settling that moves someone from one person to another in a short period of time. Dating online and/or at a long distance carries with it a level of anonymity which can be hugely comforting for some people.

Speaking in general...

Sure, you may have met a few times ... dated a few times... done some other things a few times (;)) ... BUT... the harsh and painful realities that exist when things go south are significantly less when the person doesn't live near you and you don't have to see them again. <--- this "out" if you will ....from the emotional pain ... or just the inconvenience of a breakup ... makes online/distance relationships ... for some individuals... disposable.

I agree with this Lyte, and honestly it seems like most relationships don't last these days - whether they are local or online/LDR. Some are for good reasons I think. For example, my mother stayed with my father out of Christian duty and she was a housewife until I was a teenager. So in the past, I think a lot of people stayed together out of duty and it was what was expected and women didn't have as many opportunities available to them. But today it does seem that people are less willing to work out issues and stay together. Of course it is a fine line between staying together and being with someone who isn't a good match for you. And with a relationship that is mostly online it is definitely very easy to move on to something new.

I want a good match where the person is also willing to work out things with me when there are issues and not accuse me of a bunch of shit and not let me express myself. I don't think that's too much to ask, lol, and going well in that department currently.

A lot of people also just seem to want to flirt and text and play around online or on the phone - which is cool as long as both people are upfront with what they want. But if you are trying to seriously get to know someone and that isn't clear it can be rather disappointing.

p.s. yes dee wasn't accusing you of anything. The internet gossip is thick and yes there are also trails.

[girl_dee]

The psychology of online dating
Face to face dating in general can be very positive, difficult, exciting, disappointing and at times energy consuming. Add online to the mix and you have a variety of factors to add to the list above. I speak here only from experience and opinion. I claim not, that I am an expert of any kind, I am only feeling my way through the experience just like everyone else.
Regardless of identity, most human beings experience dating at one time or another in their lives. There seems to be this interesting stigma (again I speak only from experience) when it comes to dating in the Butch/Femme world.
Again regardless of preferences within the dynamic of Butch/Femme… dating seems to be an “ugly” word. My approach to dating is simple, is to try to connect with people of like interest. If I find myself in a position where I simply lack capacity for investing time in a serious relationship I am very transparent and forth coming about it. When I feel completely open to the idea of a serious relationship, it starts with dating.
I have had the great pleasure of dating amazing women online and truly enjoyed the exchange that we had. I am sometimes baffled by the opinions that I hear of individuals like me. Dating someone is not a marriage certificate, it is simply dating. My approach to dating or choosing a partner has never come from a scarcity model. We all have a lot to offer, and one should simply never settle just because we think this is as good as it gets. The dating pool is a large pool, it’s not this desperate place where one feels that they have to attach to the first person that gives them attention.
I think the process of dating allows you to know the individual, and not just go on the initial infatuation. Deciding to end or continue dating is a big decision that requires a lot of care. Having to decide that an individual that you are dating is simply not going to work out is always difficult and disappointing. A lot of energy and time are spent while dating someone, emotions as well as intimacy have been shared. But to put it simply, regardless of the pain, the loss and the disappointment, isn’t this why we actually date people instead of marry them from hello?
Dating is an exchange, both individuals gain from the experience and if it does not work out, they both feel the loss.
I would love to have a dialogue with others on this topic, so what is your psychology on online dating?


i don't agree with our dating pool being a large pool. i feel it's small in the grand scheme of things. Being an invisible femme, i feel its quite small. This is a forum where we gather, and we can get to know each other. There is no place else i can go and be among the BF community.

i do think in any situation its best to cut your losses before continuing if it's "just not working out".

[DapperButch]

I have only dated at a distance once in the last 20 years. That was also "unplanned". We were able to stay chunks of time at each others' houses (two weeks at a time), so I do feel like I got a sense of the "day to day". It just so happened we came together at a time when both of us had things happening where we could have that amount of time together.

I have always had a rule about not dating long distance. I am not looking right now, so it isn't something I have to worry about. But, as Gemme indicated, with FaceTime and Skype, you can get a good sense of the person in their "day to day", unlike prior to these technologies. You can just carry the cell around on FaceTime as you go about your evening, or whatever. You are much more in each others' lives with FaceTime. That was always the issue/concern for me. That, and I wouldn't consider dating someone unless they had an interest in moving to my area.

[Gemme]

You darlin' are... BRILL! lol

I've never used FaceTime and/or Skype and more importantly... thus far... I've not felt a desire to learn. So, until such time as I feel otherwise... you may call me Benedick ;)

"I will not be sworn but love may transform me to an oyster, but I’ll take my oath on it, till he have made an oyster of me, he shall never make me such a fool. One woman is fair, yet I am well; another is wise, yet I am well; another virtuous, yet I am well; but till all graces be in one woman, one woman shall not come in my grace." Signior Benedick

Please don't misunderstand ... you or anyone else... I'm not criticizing anyone else's love adventure! :)

No worries. I'm just saying that that cannot be used as an excuse in this day and age. You may not want to date like that and I totally understand as LD is frustrating but you do see the essence of the person through these mediums. It can sometimes make the longing for them worse but it gives you a dose of them; just enough to take the edge off and to come to learn their mannerisms and see all of those delicious non-verbal cues you were talking about. Seeing is, indeed, believing.

[girl_dee]

do you consider long distance dating, online dating?

[BullDog]

i don't agree with our dating pool being a large pool. i feel it's small in the grand scheme of things. Being an invisible femme, i feel its quite small. This is a forum where we gather, and we can get to know each other. There is no place else i can go and be among the BF community.

i do think in any situation its best to cut your losses before continuing if it's "just not working out".

I agree. My dating pool is not large. As my profile states I am a Dominant Stone Butch Daddy, so just finding someone who complements me on these fundamental aspects alone cuts my dating pool way way down down and that is just for starters.

Also, I live in a town of 600 people in a remote area where the closest cities of any size are 4 to 5 hours away.

However that doesn't mean I operate from a scarcity mindset. I have spent long stretches of my adult life single and always take plenty of time in between serious relationships - usually years. I also know from past experience that it is much better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship or one that is not right for me. I live alone and the closest person to me is a good friend who is 4 hours away. I am very self sufficient. So although my dating pool is small I'm fine with that and will only date or be in a relationship that is right for me.

[kittygrrl]

When I have been single I consider real time and online dating perfectly equal and well worth the time and attention you decide to give it. If you meet someone interesting online I don't believe there is so much difference in what you may know....you either find the information you discover intriguing and have fun finding out more or you find you don't have much in common (your choice, with no worry)...Online may be more preferable because certain qualities you are looking for may be more easily understood...If you are a visual person-you may find it frustrating not to tangibly touch the person you are dating....so this medium would not be your cup of tea.

For me personally, I've always found online meeting ever so much more intriguing and interesting...Touching you tangibly would only excite me if you had already turned on my mind..I prefer to take my time and know well in advance if, when and where I want to go there...

[Princess]

Online dating has always been a part of my world. I have met some amazing partners through this medium. Still today, they are a huge part of my everyday world. For me, the dating pool is tiny. Our community here is seemingly non-existent these days. So, if I find someone online who peaks interest I am always willing to put in the time.
I can definitely understand why it wouldn't be someone's cup of tea. It definitely isn't for everyone. I think, there is something to be said for getting to know someone without the immediate physicality of it. The long talks and conversations build a connection that, for me has to exist before anything else. I also think there is something to be said about waiting to meet. The leading up to that point, the longing, there is a romantic aspect to that.
Technology has come a long way since I first started online. Being able to peek in to someone's world at any time tends to help a lot.
Now I am just rambling lol! Subscribing. Love the thread!

[*Anya*]

I only dated someone long distance once. I have nothing negative to say about the experience.

It only lasted a short time but distance was only a part of it. No regrets.

I learned enough to know that a ldr is not for me but totally understand how it can work for others.

After that, I absolutely used an online dating site.

I only dated locally. (I will only date locally again).

My recent longer-term ex was 18 miles from me. I really loved it. I enjoyed the easy planning for dates, the spur-of-the-minute dates, "would you like to go to the beach for lunch today? I can pick you up in an hour". Oh yes!

For me, there is no real psychology in online dating other than: honesty and more honesty; being my real, true self with all of the good and bad; ensure that I write an accurate profile because anything not true will be pretty obvious darn quickly; be truthful, too; if there is no chemistry and you know fairly quickly that it is not going to develop.

I have written before that with my recent ex, I did not read her profile carefully enough. She clearly wrote all of the sports and activities she enjoyed but I first of all, was besotted by the handsome butchness of her picture and secondly, the very best behavior that she reflected when we began to date.

She had not written that she expected me to participate in her love of sports or I may have passed.

Who knows? We can always do Monday-morning quarterbacking after a relationship ends.

I should have done more in the beginning but did not. I spent just under 4 years with her and though I moved out last October; I still have not felt ready to date again yet. It takes me a long time to heal and to feel ready to open my heart again. That is just how I am.

By the time I am ready to date again, hopefully, I will have learned from it and will again avail myself of online dating from an identified online dating site.

Online dating sites are the only places that I have found, that I can sort out the butches from the femmes more easily. Speaking of that: I even put in my profile that I was attracted to butch lesbians and I still had femmes respond. Femmes will always be my best friends but I just do not feel attracted to women that look just like me.

Yin and yang, you know!

A final note: I am also struggling with how I would include that I now have physical health challenges that I did not have when I last dated. Do you include that in your profile? Do you tell someone on the first date? Do you wait until you have had a couple of dates? I am at a loss with this one.

[Lyte]

Oh, I still assert that online/distance dating is extremely problematic and not a good idea. I'm familiar with FaceTime and Skype though I've not used them. As much as they may seem to provide insight they come no where close to the insight/intimacy gained from the physical presence of the person.

Another ... major issue... not yet mentioned is logistics. Two people feel they've hit it off and are perfect for one another! So... who's going to give up they're current life/location and move? Give up their home, if they own, give up their job, if they were working on a career there and give up friends... and family... if they still live in their home town. <-- that's a hell of a lot for one person to give up on a hell of a lot less insight/intimacy that comes from being in the person's presence. :blink:

No worries. I'm just saying that that cannot be used as an excuse in this day and age. You may not want to date like that and I totally understand as LD is frustrating but you do see the essence of the person through these mediums. It can sometimes make the longing for them worse but it gives you a dose of them; just enough to take the edge off and to come to learn their mannerisms and see all of those delicious non-verbal cues you were talking about. Seeing is, indeed, believing.

[CherylNYC]

... There seems to be this interesting stigma (again I speak only from experience) when it comes to dating in the Butch/Femme world.
Again regardless of preferences within the dynamic of Butch/Femme… dating seems to be an “ugly” word. ...

Knight, It isn't clear to me what you mean by this. What experiences have you had that led you to feeling that dating is considered ugly?

[BullDog]

Oh, I still assert that online/distance is extremely problematic and not a good idea. I'm familiar with FaceTime and Skype though I've not used them. As much as they may seem to provide insight they come no where close to the insight/intimacy gained from the physical presence of the person.

Another ... major issue... not yet mentioned is logistics. Two people feel they've hit it off and are perfect for one another! So... who's going to give up they're current life/location and move? Give up their home, if they own, give up their job, if they were working on a career there and give up friends... and family... if they still live in their home town. <-- that's a hell of a lot for one person to give up. :blink:

I agree. There are so many logistics involved. I am someone who has a lot of flexibility in being able to move, since I am a freelance writer, have no children, etc. But when I have moved for someone and it hasn't worked out, not only is there serious heartache but I can't even begin to tell you how wrung out it has made me feel and stretched to the utmost limits, not to mention having to either relocate or stay in an area that I moved to be with someone. It is severely emotionally damaging. And most people do not have the flexibility that I do. They do have jobs in a fixed location, children and family where they live and a host of other issues.

Also, I do agree that Skype and Facetime and other mediums that we have these days are tremendously helpful in getting to know someone, but that there is still no substitute for real world living - when the bills have to be paid, meals prepared, when the dog gets sick, the refrigerator breaks, your partner's kids are acting up, etc.

And yet I am in an LDR now.

[CherylNYC]

My own experiences dating someone I met online have been negative. I met two women that way and I doubt I'll try it again. it's easy for a person to present the best of themselves when they sit down to write or speak on the phone, (or Skype or FaceTime), and my usual tools to sniff out a liar or someone who is flat out nuts, for example, aren't deployable until I've already established a connection. At that point the connection, especially when there's already been sexy talk and deep conversation, easily overwhelms my voice of reason. I'm far better able to sense danger in person.

Both of the above failed relationships were with extraordinarily handsome and photogenic butch women who wrote well. Those qualities made them even more attractive online and further disabled my 'sniffer'. I like this community for many reasons. One of the biggest draws for me is that being a stonefemme here is an accepted and an acceptable identity. I'm pretty isolated outside of this little bubble. Even though it would save me plenty of time as well as a world of humiliation and rejection, I doubt I'll put myself out there online again.

[gotoseagrl]

I think the scariest thing though is trusting the face one puts on in public when sometimes there is a completely different side hiding offline. Like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde. Unfortunately I think in most cases it comes down to trying to spend as much time in person in order to see the full truth that is there that no one else sees. Apprently its really easy to put on a good act for the public eye. I think its always a risk. Especially for those of us who see the good in people and use that to trust they will be sane and healthy too easily. And some of us have to learn the hard way, even in offline dating.




i will come back to this but one thing that is a positive for me.. is history.

Example..

i meet you in a bar.. i have no idea who you are.. how you treat femmes... if you are a player..

i meet you in a chatroom on this site... i probably know you from the threads... or reunions etc... i can see a history.. i can see if you and i have similar interests or opinions.. etc

if you ARE a player it will likely show up online somewhere...

a LOT of information can be gained when you decide to date someone online.


GREAT thread Knight!

[gotoseagrl]

I think what was meant was that sometimes the status of dating - just to feel things out & see how it goes with time - is looked down upon because some people want to skip into the full on relationship expecting everything to be etched in stone from the start. That is unrealistic, in my opinion, and I feel anyone in their right mind would want the chance to let time reveal if its something they really want. Just dating at first can provide that opportunity. And sometimes even after we think we are have it figured out, we can still realize we made a mistake and choose to either stay or move on. Regardless of anything, only time tells. Words arent everything, time and the various situations life presents are.




Knight, It isn't clear to me what you mean by this. What experiences have you had that led you to feeling that dating is considered ugly?

[Greco]

I no longer date online, period. Discovered that many PD (Personality Disordered) folks basically make online dating, etc their "hunting grounds". As a consequence of my experience with a femme narcissist I dove deeply into my healing from it. And began researching people with personality disorders for several years and now work with people who have also survived these abusive and dangerous people/relationships.

Online dating? No way.

Greco

[BullDog]

Yeah online dating has definitely bitten me in the ass too, but I keep the faith.

Speaking of trails, some of us do have a very long history in the online BF community and I really think it would be difficult for some of us old timers to be fine upstanding online community members and then be monsters offline. I guess anything's possible.

I've been on this and the previous butch femme site for over 15 years now and dated/lived with several femmes and been to reunions and lived in the same city as a number of different community members, have several thousand posts people can read, etc. so I think it would be really difficult for me to hide some monster side of myself or have some strange mental illness that I somehow cleverly disguise. And many other members have long histories too. However, meeting people online is definitely not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not available for dating anyway, but anyone can check my history anytime.

So yeah, follow the patterns - the overall patterns - of someone.

[Lyte]

You make a valid, if not startling, point. :blink:

IF someone did have a PD ... or frankly ... was just an unpleasant person... and found themselves unsuccessful in real life, (friends, lovers and such) ... the internet is a place where they can learn/practice masking their issues. Or masking them sufficiently to have some kind of social life.

This is not to suggest that a good number of people who socialize online have issues! It simply means that the the internet gives them a better cover and makes it much more difficult for others to get the best "read" on them.

Questions...

What part has missing... or, let's be honest ignoring... red flags played in anyone's online dating?

Dating is often the first step we take when we're attracted to someone and want to learn and experience more of them. But... we enter a very tricky place with someone once we "officially" start dating and/or call us getting together a date. Does the getting to know someone require a "date?" Why not get to know someone and then say, if only to yourself... I want to date this person!




I no longer date online, period. Discovered that many PD (Personality Disordered) folks basically make online dating, etc their "hunting grounds". As a consequence of my experience with a femme narcissist I dove deeply into my healing from it. And began researching people with personality disorders for several years and now work with people who have also survived these abusive and dangerous people/relationships.

Online dating? No way.

Greco

[Bèsame*]

You make a valid, if not startling, point. :blink:

IF someone did have a PD ... or frankly ... was just an unpleasant person... and found themselves unsuccessful in real life, (friends, lovers and such) ... the internet is a place where they can learn/practice masking their issues. Or masking them sufficiently to have some kind of social life.

This is not to suggest that a good number of people who socialize online have issues! It simply means that the the internet gives them a better cover and makes it much more difficult for others to get the best "read" on them.

Questions...

What part does missing... or, let's be honest ignoring... red flags played in anyone's online dating?

Dating is often the first step we take when we're attracted to someone and want to learn and experience more of them. But... we enter a very tricky place with someone once we "officially" start dating and/or call us getting together a date. Does the getting to know someone require a "date?" Why not get to know someone and then say, if only to yourself... I want to date this person!

Eventually, and hopefully in the course of conversations the red flags appear. I believe those who are wise to the on line conversations have learned to spot them. You can choose to back away or ignore. Perhaps those that ignore have their own flags to protect.

Remember...lesbians really don't date, they just rent u-hauls. ....

[BullDog]

You make a valid, if not startling, point. :blink:

IF someone did have a PD ... or frankly ... was just an unpleasant person... and found themselves unsuccessful in real life, (friends, lovers and such) ... the internet is a place where they can learn/practice masking their issues. Or masking them sufficiently to have some kind of social life.

This is not to suggest that a good number of people who socialize online have issues! It simply means that the the internet gives them a better cover and makes it much more difficult for others to get the best "read" on them.


There are definitely plenty of these types. How many more times is Jake Tulane going to come back under a different screen name?

They usually don't have much real life contact with anyone. Although it also true that there are plenty of honest members who haven't either.

[Lyte]

True and very likely for most people online. However, we can't leave out or discount that no matter how well (accurately) we present ourselves online we are still subject to another person's perception.

And... even if we present ourselves accurately and are perceived accurately that does not equate to a successful / compatible long-term relationship.


I've been on this and the previous butch femme site for over 15 years now and dated/lived with several femmes and been to reunions and lived in the same city as a number of different community members, have several thousand posts people can read, etc. so I think it would be really difficult for me to hide some monster side of myself or have some strange mental illness that I somehow cleverly disguise. And many other members have long histories too.

[BullDog]

True and very likely for most people online. However, we can't leave out or discount that no matter how well (accurately) we present ourselves online we are still subject to another person's perception.

And... even if we present ourselves accurately and are perceive accurately that does not equate to a successful/compatible long-term relationship.

I couldn't have said it better myself. And some people do have interesting perceptions to say the least. When someone has some strange opinion of me that no one else has I consider it an outlier - to put it politely.

[JDeere]

I won't do online dating anymore at all, these days I prefer face to face, etc.

If I have met someone from online and we meet face to face, etc maybe but if its strictly linked to a forum, etc then no.

Even with skype and all, I still don't trust people much these days.

[*Anya*]

I no longer date online, period. Discovered that many PD (Personality Disordered) folks basically make online dating, etc their "hunting grounds". As a consequence of my experience with a femme narcissist I dove deeply into my healing from it. And began researching people with personality disorders for several years and now work with people who have also survived these abusive and dangerous people/relationships.

Online dating? No way.

Greco

I want to clarify that when I post of online dating, I am talking specific dating sites such as Match.Com; not forum sites or other online sites, where making casual friends or acquaintances may be the goal, rather than meeting a potential partner.

When I specifically date from an online dating site and state that I only date locally, all of my dates were first at a local Starbucks or Peets for coffee (and even meeting for coffee is a casual date).

After that, one or both of us would decide if we wanted to meet again or just agree there was no chemistry to pursue something.

Online "dating" can mean different things to different people.

[Gemme]

do you consider long distance dating, online dating?

I think one leads to the other.


Another ... major issue... not yet mentioned is logistics. Two people feel they've hit it off and are perfect for one another! So... who's going to give up they're current life/location and move? Give up their home, if they own, give up their job, if they were working on a career there and give up friends... and family... if they still live in their home town. <-- that's a hell of a lot for one person to give up on a hell of a lot less insight/intimacy that comes from being in the person's presence. :blink:

Having been in this boat, if a couple is at that point, the one who is more flexible in terms of employment/lifestyle/etc usually is the one to move or else both will move to a neutral location together.

Most of the time, this decision isn't made lightly and there's a lot of conversation and thought put into it. It's not like someone is saying "I love you" and "I want to live with you" after only two days/dates/visits. Sure, there are some folks who click right away or others who fall into the sucker category (been there....don't recommend it!) who will move faster than others but most folks take their time with this momentous of a decision. It's going to affect the direction of their lives going forward and change everything.

You make a valid, if not startling, point. :blink:

IF someone did have a PD ... or frankly ... was just an unpleasant person... and found themselves unsuccessful in real life, (friends, lovers and such) ... the internet is a place where they can learn/practice masking their issues. Or masking them sufficiently to have some kind of social life.

This is not to suggest that a good number of people who socialize online have issues! It simply means that the the internet gives them a better cover and makes it much more difficult for others to get the best "read" on them.

Questions...

What part has missing... or, let's be honest ignoring... red flags played in anyone's online dating?

Dating is often the first step we take when we're attracted to someone and want to learn and experience more of them. But... we enter a very tricky place with someone once we "officially" start dating and/or call us getting together a date. Does the getting to know someone require a "date?" Why not get to know someone and then say, if only to yourself... I want to date this person!

First, there's a bad apple in every barrel and also, there are people with some serious psychological issues sitting right next to you at work right now and you've not a clue. That's the nature of these conditions. The people who have them are experts at hiding the things that would stick out to the rest of the population.

Both of your dating versions could work. Each couple's relationship is individual and unique. As long as people are happy and healthy and treat one another well, I say do the damn thing.

[kittygrrl]

wait a minute:blink:what exactly is online dating now?? When the net was much younger we were much like an extended family and people (online) seemed to truly care-femmes who were traveling to meet lovers could depend on the butch brotherhood to help with glitches, problems etc-femmes were saved in sticky circumstances...it's not like that now...maybe it's a little meaner (so to speak) and way more impersonal...it's a shame really-

[BullDog]

kittygrrl, I guess it all depends on how well connected people are. I think it still exists in some circumstances. I know several years ago when I was going to meet a femme for the first time and she was traveling to see me in my home town, a femme invited us to dinner and also let my girl know that I would be good to her but if she ever needed anything to just let her know especially since she was traveling so far from home. I thought it was a very nice gesture. It is nice to feel you are part of a wider social circle and family so to speak.

[Lyte]

I'm all for dating sites (and even forums)! I think those are fine for better locating likeminded individuals... who are local. ;)


I want to clarify that when I post of online dating, I am talking specific dating sites such as Match.Com; not forum sites or other online sites, where making casual friends or acquaintances may be the goal, rather than meeting a potential partner.

[Lyte]

Could work out ... certainly! Anything IS possible. :)

Work out equally as often as relationships started in real life / face to face ... nope.




Both of your dating versions could work. Each couple's relationship is individual and unique. As long as people are happy and healthy and treat one another well, I say do the damn thing

.

[kittygrrl]

kittygrrl, I guess it all depends on how well connected people are. I think it still exists in some circumstances. I know several years ago when I was going to meet a femme for the first time and she was traveling to see me in my home town, a femme invited us to dinner and also let my girl know that I would be good to her but if she ever needed anything to just let her know especially since she was traveling so far from home. I thought it was a very nice gesture. It is nice to feel you are part of a wider social circle and family so to speak.

yes...there is an understanding in such relationships...you can't put your finger on it...but you know when it's there and when it isn't-------it's impossible to explain if you've never felt it--perhaps it's not possible now but isn't it strange that the more we seems to focus all our attention on electronics and social media...the meaner and more cruel it becomes? What is the answer? I just don't understand. :(--i'm rambling a bit but perhaps a few get my meaning---

[BullDog]

Yes, I understand. It does seem we were all more like family even 5 years ago. I guess some still are.

Yeah the meaner stuff - I mean look where it is getting us in politics!

I do think it is a huge red flag if you are dating from online and someone would want to meet in complete secret. If you are being discreet and your online community is none the wiser, that is fine. But I always have made sure when I am meeting someone that they give at least one person they personally know my contact information. If someone doesn't want that, it would be a huge red flag to me.

[Gemme]

Could work out ... certainly! Anything IS possible. :)

Work out equally as often as relationships started in real life / face to face ... nope.

There's approximately a 50% divorce rate and the majority of those are people who met in person. I think everyone has the same shot, regardless of the way they meet.

There is no guarantee for anyone and one method is as good as another. Hell, I just saw a show that had a couple from the original Love Connection that were still together after 23 years.

To each their own!

[SleepyButch]

I've been doing online dating for years and years now. It's easier for me as a shy guy when it comes to approaching women, to meet potential dates online. Also, having identified as Butch for all of those years and now Trans, it really narrows down your dating pool right? I'd rather come here and get to know someone via forums, chat, skype and then meet in person knowing that this person on the other side of my screen, gets who I am and appreciates me for being me. Yes, there are people who lie about who they are but that eventually comes out doesn't it? I've been lucky enough to not have gotten involved with anyone who has lied about something significant thankfully.

Yes, you can get to know someone online for a time and feel they are the best person in the world and then meet in person and it doesn't go so well but doesn't that happen when you meet face to face as well? You have a couple of dates, go out for months and then figure out that the other person is not for you. It happens in any time of dating medium. I also don't portray myself as something I am not and never will. I want someone to like me for me and not for some made up BS that I think they want to hear. Who does that benefit?

I tried to date locally and I get either married women who are looking for someone to experiment with or people who just don't get the butch femme dynamic or get me for that matter. i just don't have the energy at this point to try to explain who I am. Do you know how hard it is to explain to someone who doesn't get it why I want you to call me he or why when talking about sex I always use male terminology in relation to myself?

Anyway, long distance is hard, but if two people are willing to put in the work, it can be well worth it. I'm also flexible in my job and can live anywhere in the US so I keep that in mind when I'm starting a new online/long distance relationship. I know it doesn't work for everyone but there are many of us who it does work for so we keep on keeping on.

[kittygrrl]

Yes, I understand. It does seem we were all more like family even 5 years ago. I guess some still are.

Yeah the meaner stuff - I mean look where it is getting us in politics!

I do think it is a huge red flag if you are dating from online and someone would want to meet in complete secret. If you are being discreet and your online community is none the wiser, that is fine. But I always have made sure when I am meeting someone that they give at least one person they personally know my contact information. If someone doesn't want that, it would be a huge red flag to me.

I must be entirely out of the loop:praying:but you remember that horrible incident some years hence? I totally agree a woman should be wise and make sure her whereabouts are known and that she take every precaution

[Lyte]

To this point, I agree!

To each their own!

[CherylNYC]

You make a valid, if not startling, point. :blink:

IF someone did have a PD ... or frankly ... was just an unpleasant person... and found themselves unsuccessful in real life, (friends, lovers and such) ... the internet is a place where they can learn/practice masking their issues. Or masking them sufficiently to have some kind of social life...

Questions...

What part has missing... or, let's be honest ignoring... red flags played in anyone's online dating?...



I certainly wouldn't rule out dating a person who battles depression or PTSD, or has other less serious mental health challenges, but I'm DONE with dating dangerously disordered people! Unfortunately I seem to have had a blind spot for people with Borderline Personality Disorder. Both of the women I dated who I had initially met online seem to be grievously afflicted with that disorder. I won't be falling for that one again. There were a few cues I should have heeded in both cases.

The first red flag for the first one should have been when she spent far too many pixels beating her breast while declaiming her honor. That's usually a sign that a person is deficient in that category. She turned out to be a dirt-bag liar, of course. She also changed gears instantly from charming to monstrous the last two dates when we saw each other face to face, which seems to be one of the signature moves of a person with BPD. There were other signs, but we didn't have enough in-person encounters for me to experience the full weight of her mental illness. Thank the Goddess.

In the second case I definitely should have noticed that the butch in question was, according to her, always the completely innocent victim of everyone with whom she had ever been in conflict. That's usually the sign of a person unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. I should have noticed that. She also cried. A LOT. Which left me in a difficult position. I was deeply uncomfortable with her far too frequent tears, but as a feminist I would NEVER have questioned tears shed by a masculine person. That won't happen again. And she, too, changed from pleasant to dangerous in a heartbeat. I experienced her violence once and I fled. I cut off all contact just as I had with the previous BPD butch, but I spooked myself. How could I have been so blind?

Since BPD isn't that easy to spot even in person, and since I seem to find those losers without trying, I'm no longer putting myself at risk with online encounters.

[2qt]

After coming out of a LDR & it was a pretty long LDR Usa to Australia, I like to believe I have learnt a lot about dating online & face to face & I try to keep my mind open to the possibilities of it again, however I do question things a lot more then I ever have before if I am consider the entire LDR thing again...

I hold no regrets meeting my ex online, but it was a difficult journey & it was a full commitment required to making the process a successful one, considering the distance we were both very cautious & we took it very slowly, we were consistently on skype IE: the only time we were not connected was when we were at work or out shopping etc etc.....We even had date nights via video & watched movies together via video etc, shared our lives with our real life friends etc.... (Yes it was all a little crazy) lol

We did this online dating for 8 months prior to meeting & in that time I mentally got to know her quite well, including all the ups & downs of her personalities etc & it's pretty hard to hide the disguise of your flaws when you are consistently connected via video & voice 24 hours a day 7 days a week just as you would be in real life...

Naturally the physical side was the only thing I found that was missing from the equation for that 8 months.... At least that's my experience of it all...

Even though after 6 years living together & huge sacrifices were made from both sides of the scale it never worked out, but it was not something we took lightly......

I wouldn't have changed the experience & it has not left a sour taste in my mouth to not considering finding love that way again...

With that said, I find it's just as easy to date in real life & go through the same roller coaster of emotions & the getting to know each others perks & quirks dance be it good or bad..... I think it just all comes down to balances & what we are willing to accept or not accept in our lives, we all have our own personal desires that are our "Comfort Zones" ....


The only upside of dating face to face is the physical contact least that's my personal experience of it all...

[2qt]

do you consider long distance dating, online dating?

I feel there is just too much stigma given to the words Online/Real life, local/LD.... Dating I think is just how one views it... Some consider it just online dating whilst others see it as something much deeper & much more personal to them...

Why can't we just name it.... Getting to know someone? The word dating seems to box it into this little square of perception that dating is only possible if it's done in real time or if they live within x amount of miles from me.... I don't feel that to be true... You often can't control who you fall for... Love is just love...

For me it was much more personal then just an online date thing... I was spending the same amount of my real time quality time getting to know my potential partner then as I would in my real life...

If you want something to work it's like anything... Effort needs to be made & you need to know what it is you're both reaching for & you're both on the same page otherwise it will never work...

[clay]

I certainly wouldn't rule out dating a person who battles depression or PTSD, or has other less serious mental health challenges, but I'm DONE with dating dangerously disordered people! Unfortunately I seem to have had a blind spot for people with Borderline Personality Disorder. Both of the women I dated who I had initially met online seem to be grievously afflicted with that disorder. I won't be falling for that one again. There were a few cues I should have heeded in both cases.

The first red flag for the first one should have been when she spent far too many pixels beating her breast while declaiming her honor. That's usually a sign that a person is deficient in that category. She turned out to be a dirt-bag liar, of course. She also changed gears instantly from charming to monstrous the last two dates when we saw each other face to face, which seems to be one of the signature moves of a person with BPD. There were other signs, but we didn't have enough in-person encounters for me to experience the full weight of her mental illness. Thank the Goddess.

In the second case I definitely should have noticed that the butch in question was, according to her, always the completely innocent victim of everyone with whom she had ever been in conflict. That's usually the sign of a person unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. I should have noticed that. She also cried. A LOT. Which left me in a difficult position. I was deeply uncomfortable with her far too frequent tears, but as a feminist I would NEVER have questioned tears shed by a masculine person. That won't happen again. And she, too, changed from pleasant to dangerous in a heartbeat. I experienced her violence once and I fled. I cut off all contact just as I had with the previous BPD butch, but I spooked myself. How could I have been so blind?

Since BPD isn't that easy to spot even in person, and since I seem to find those losers without trying, I'm no longer putting myself at risk with online encounters.

Thanks for this post Cheryl!

I certainly can resonate with most of it. I have had past relationships with BPD & it is very difficult to know right off. My issue is when one doesn't "own their own stuff" & tries to blame everyone else . I have ended relationships when my gut was telling me to do so. A few years ago I was tangled up with an alcoholic who also had BPD and issues with being truthful. I found I always made excuses for her behavior until I finally saw things were not going to change nor would she own her own stuff. BTW she is not on this site and never was!

With that said, like you, Cheryl, I am done with online & LDR's for a lot of reasons. It is just too difficult to maintain. From now on I am & will date only locally! I applaud those who are in them!

I know LDR's & online can & do work, but has to be with both on same page! I have seen some really incredibly loving relationships like this that work. It just isn't for me

[MsTinkerbelly]

There are a lot of users on-line who want to move in with you right after they meet you, want you to put them on your phone plan, want you to buy things with your credit....on-line daters need to be aware that not everyone has good motives.

Luckily I never came across one myself, but I have heard of others who weren't as fortunate.

[hopelessromantic69]

I have to say for myself I have been pretty lucky with my relationships that started online. I had only one that was a disaster. She moved in with me while I was living in Seattle. After two weeks I was done then it got really interesting. She attacked me while I was in the bath tub. I was calling 911 and she started scratching me trying to get my phone away. The Seattle police were going to arrest her but I just wanted her gone. I went and took money out for her to drive back home the next day. I had to have two of my friends sit down the road while she packed up in case she decided not to leave. That left me reeling for a while. That was the first time I had to deal with crazy.

You learn through each online relationship, what you will and will not except. I feel how it's defined is between the two people involved. I think people that cat fish others gives it a nagative undertone.

Thank you to all the people that have opened up on here about their experiences and lessons learned.

[girl_dee]

I feel there is just too much stigma given to the words Online/Real life, local/LD.... Dating I think is just how one views it... Some consider it just online dating whilst others see it as something much deeper & much more personal to them...

Why can't we just name it.... Getting to know someone? The word dating seems to box it into this little square of perception that dating is only possible if it's done in real time or if they live within x amount of miles from me.... I don't feel that to be true... You often can't control who you fall for... Love is just love...

For me it was much more personal then just an online date thing... I was spending the same amount of my real time quality time getting to know my potential partner then as I would in my real life...

If you want something to work it's like anything... Effort needs to be made & you need to know what it is you're both reaching for & you're both on the same page otherwise it will never work...

i have been thinking about this and i get it.

The OP mentioned people not getting the *dating * part... that people want a marriage before the courtship...i don't get that either.

IMO i cannot know someone until have been with them in person... the energy has to be right, so i could not date strictly online and definately could not plan a future with anyone i have not been with in person.

i think people are sometimes just in a lustmance and confuse with being in love.

[Lyte]

A few years ago... *cough* ... this gal and I came up with a feeling and a corresponding phrase that described how we felt for one another. It was quite a bit more than like ... but not quite love... we decided we were In Lust with one another. Yup... definitely ... In Lust!

:p


i think people are sometimes just in a lustmance and confuse with being in love.

[girl_dee]

A few years ago... *cough* ... this gal and I came up with a feeling and a corresponding phrase that described how we felt for one another. It was quite a bit more than like ... but not quite love... we were In Lust with one another. Yup... definitely ... In Lust!

:p

and there is NOTHING wrong with that! As long as you both know where you stand, or lay... who cares! Enjoy it!

[Lyte]

Absolutely! There's nothing wrong with that at all! :)

and there is NOTHING wrong with that! As long as you both know where you stand, or lay... who cares! Enjoy it!

[kittygrrl]

I don't see online dating as a substitute for actually being physically in someone's real time life. There is a point where that becomes necessary but getting to know someone in a forum isn't a big bad boogey man and as relevant as any other kind of meeting (to me). It's worked for me fine but if it doesn't work for you, that is also fine. This is a place to share ideas and experience but it stops where you want it to. I think this works for everybody-

[*Anya*]

There are as many definitions of date or dating as almost the number of days in a month:

noun
1.
a particular month, day, and year at which some event happened or will happen:
July 4, 1776 was the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

2.
the day of the month:
Is today's date the 7th or the 8th?

3. an inscription on a writing, coin, etc., that shows the time, or time and place, of writing, casting, delivery, etc.:
a letter bearing the date January 16.

4.
the time or period to which any event or thing belongs; period in general:
at a late date.

5.
the time during which anything lasts; duration:
The pity is that childhood has so short a date.

6.
an appointment for a particular time:
They have a date with their accountant at ten o'clock.

7.
a social appointment or engagement arranged beforehand with another person, especially when a romantic relationship exists or may develop:
to go out on a Saturday night date.

verb (used without object), dated, dating.

11.
to have or bear a date:
The letter dates from 1873.

12.
to belong to a particular period; have its origin:
That dress dates from the 19th century. The architecture dates as far back as 1830.

13.
to reckon from some point in time:
The custom dates from the days when women wore longer skirts.

14.
to go out socially on dates:
She dated a lot during high school.
verb (used with object), dated, dating.

15.
to mark or furnish with a date:
Please date the check as of today.

16.
to ascertain or fix the period or point in time of; assign a period or point in time to:
The archaeologist dated the ruins as belonging to the early Minoan period.

17.
to show the age of; show to be old-fashioned.

18.
to make a date with; go out on dates with:
He's been dating his best friend's sister.

Idioms
19.
to date, up to the present time; until now:
This is his best book to date.

20.
up to date, in agreement with or inclusive of the latest information; modern:
Bring us up to date on the news.

[BullDog]

I think the hardest part is being able to spend a lot of time in person before making a long term commitment. It is logistically not easy - unless online where you live locally or not too far apart.

[knight]

I think the truth of the person comes out regardless in real time, or face to face on skype. I think we always know from the beginning. I believe we see signs and we chose to ignore or pay attention. Reputation in real life and online has some validity but the source is always important to note. I know from myself from experience i have never listened to others opinions of people I always gave people a chance, even if they were right at the end.




i will come back to this but one thing that is a positive for me.. is history.

Example..

i meet you in a bar.. i have no idea who you are.. how you treat femmes... if you are a player..

i meet you in a chatroom on this site... i probably know you from the threads... or reunions etc... i can see a history.. i can see if you and i have similar interests or opinions.. etc

if you ARE a player it will likely show up online somewhere...

a LOT of information can be gained when you decide to date someone online.


GREAT thread Knight!

[knight]

In my case the pool is large mostly to the fact that i live in a very open mostly pansexual town, and i present very masculine.
You are right about it being smaller due to femme invisibility, I totally see that. I think many factors play here, especially visibility and community Thank you for that comment.




i don't agree with our dating pool being a large pool. i feel it's small in the grand scheme of things. Being an invisible femme, i feel its quite small. This is a forum where we gather, and we can get to know each other. There is no place else i can go and be among the BF community.

i do think in any situation its best to cut your losses before continuing if it's "just not working out".

[knight]

I think we probably all have different definitions of those terms, for me all online dating is long distance dating. If you cant get in your car and drive at to have a real time date with someone both terms would apply here.

do you consider long distance dating, online dating?

[Martina]

For me, finding someone online is fine. But I want a local relationship. They are difficult enough. I did long distance twice, once with someone I had already lived with who had to move and once with someone I knew as a friend who moved. Our phone contact took a new turn, and we tried a LDR. I hated it. All the waiting along with the potential for more communication issues -- it just wasn't for me.

Hell, we're all busy, and relationships take so much time and energy. If you can't see and touch your person once a week at least, I don't see the point.

[girl_dee]

I think we probably all have different definitions of those terms, for me all online dating is long distance dating. If you cant get in your car and drive at to have a real time date with someone both terms would apply here.

Thanks! i suppose it does go hand in hand...

[girl_dee]

I think the truth of the person comes out regardless in real time, or face to face on skype. I think we always know from the beginning. I believe we see signs and we chose to ignore or pay attention. Reputation in real life and online has some validity but the source is always important to note. I know from myself from experience i have never listened to others opinions of people I always gave people a chance, even if they were right at the end.

i've always felt this way... i am a true believer that when someone shows you who they are, you should believe it.

[BullDog]

I do agree that red flags are often ignored but I don't agree that you always know from the beginning. That is why you get to know someone in the first place. That isn't just due to someone being potentially a bad apple or dishonest either. It's just getting to know them in all different situations. You need to be able to get along and communicate well - both when things are going well and when there is a misunderstanding or problem. And I also agree it is best to get to know someone on your own because you may have an entirely different way of viewing a person and getting along with them than another person does.

I have had many surprises - mostly good and some bad - from getting to know someone better in person. Some could definitely be from not paying attention to red flags but some things you just don't know until it happens. And I don't feel anyone has ever been fundamentally dishonest with me or tried to hide some bad part of herself. And I have done the same. I am always Me. There are definitely some things that I would have never, ever anticipated.

Logistics has also played a role because I tend to always be interested in someone who lives far away! I don't do that on purpose. I always have specific reasons why I am interested in someone. It just has made it difficult to have lots of time visiting in person before making a move due to money, time, distance, etc. So I have made moves based on limited amount of time spent in person, which isn't the greatest thing. It has however involved tons and tons of extensive communication and interaction, just not a lot in person. But I haven't moved out of some kind of desperation that I couldn't be alone or had to have instant marriage. It just was the next step and lots of visits were kind of not real practical at the time. It wasn't ideal. But I took the chance because I do have flexibility due to my work and situation, and real, enduring love and and sharing my life with the woman I love is worth it to me. If I had been able to spend more time in person before making a move would things have turned out differently in past relationships? I don't honestly know, but it is something I wish I could have done and if I can't... maybe it is something I need to pay attention to. It is something I have thought about a lot.

I would much prefer not to do LDR because it is hard enough without the extra factors, but it can be worth if you find the right person. However, when it doesn't work out it does take a huge emotional toll. So I definitely don't blame those who prefer to only date locally, but I understand those who are giving LDR a shot as well.

[Lyte]

We humans are such curious creatures! We're so alike and yet so different.

Preface... none of the peeps or situation I'm about to reference on here on BFP! Story time... :p

I met a gal (West Coast) and we hit it off quite well from the start! But... also from the start... I noticed some inconsistencies in some of the things she said. You know ... someone tells you that it's X ... but you're seeing/hearing a lotta Y and a lil bit of Z. lol ;) Anyway... so this was within the first couple of weeks and I've no problem being direct. Gently direct, I hope. So, I asked her straight up ... "Are you involved" and/or "Are you living with someone?" I added that either way was fine with me since we're just chatting and that I was more than happy to continue talking with her. Her response was an equally straight up "No, I'm not." So, chatting turned to flirting and yadda yadda... this went on for about three months... I then discovered that she had been lying from day one and was in fact living with her fiancé! Oy!

In speaking with a friend afterwards I told her that I was surprised by how much I wasn't bummed! I was bummed at losing someone that I enjoyed chatting and flirting with but I wasn't nearly disappointed as I could have been had I took this stranger at her word ... and ignored the red flags. I felt way worse for her fiancé! :(

New story...

I have a friend who's last three girl friends came from meeting online. The first she met online in 2015. She shared with me her conversations with the first two and ... dang... flags... flags... flags!! Despite my efforts and ... coaching* ... for lack of a better word ... she decided to start a relationship each and even moved to be with them. Long story short... first and second where just awful! The second was abusive. She was heart broken over both. Curiously, she didn't say much to me about the third one... so... my fingers are crossed and so far... from what I hear... so good! :)

Point being... we're all so very much alike... we all want love... or maybe just some attention... and yet so different in what we're willing to do... what we're willing to endure ... to get that attention. There's no right or wrong here or judgment on my part. Just some observations from my first half of 2017.

*"Coaching" ... cuz she's brand new... just came out in her late 30's after having been married to a guy for 15+ years. She doesn't know the lay of the lesbian landscape. :p

[firegal]

For me, finding someone online is fine. But I want a local relationship. They are difficult enough. I did long distance twice, once with someone I had already lived with who had to move and once with someone I knew as a friend who moved. Our phone contact took a new turn, and we tried a LDR. I hated it. All the waiting along with the potential for more communication issues -- it just wasn't for me.

Hell, we're all busy, and relationships take so much time and energy. If you can't see and touch your person once a week at least, I don't see the point.

your comment and a few others made me think of Baskins and robbins.....31 flavors....lot of flavors.....some i dont like and others do.Like different looks in "on line-long distant dating".......and more than a few flavors i may like...even love lol.....but in the end its still dating.....errr...ice cream...

dating ......31 flavors.... lol


PS yes they both have vanilla!!!!! lol

[Kätzchen]

Heh, love the ice cream metaphor firegal! *lol*

I hear Bulldog and Martina and I resonate with similar sentiment in that ..... A) Like both Bulldog and Martina, I've been a member of this community for a very long time. Our history, things we've talked about in either personal or political ways, are really good ways to understand the way we think about most any subject up for discussion among members of the community. Whether it was online here at the Planet or at the years long community that seems no longer what it once was (Dash), people who've been regularly participating in forum discussions are able to see our own unique pattern of thinking, our preferences, whatever..... even if someone isn't a regularly participating member, there is always the proverbial trail of bread crumbs which are unique to ourselves or anyone who has posted on forum boards.

And... B) unless you're a trained professional therapist in the mental health field, I think it's really WISE to not dispense with personal assessment of behavioral issues. I would feel VERY uncomfortable if any therapist or mental health professional crossed that ethical and moral line of conduct. So...to share ideas you have about certain RED flags in behavioral issues is one thing, but it's a slippery slope to reference anyone in shady ways or use the un-named target when talking about serious things that can be deal breakers for many people.

C) I don't have any "dog in this fight" as far as whether knowing if dating locally or meeting someone here and it turns out well or not. I've made several posts about this very thing over the past few years, which anyone can look up on their own. What matters to me is whether another person and myself feel attraction for one another....and other privately held ideas between the two of us, which I don't feel is necessary to discuss openly on the forum boards. BUT...it is important that proximity of nearness be in place for anything to develop and it's also important to me that transparency between each other is of vital importance.

In my mind, these are the building blocks to a solid foundation. What happens next is not up for debate or discussion. Solid foundations are vital to building any relationship, whether it's platonic or romantic, in my mind. :rrose:

[girl_dee]

i feel that the internet is a tool in which we use to gather. We like to be with like minded folks...

This amazing pool of B-F folks could not gather without the internet, not very easily.

Even in our community we are quite diverse!

Some are looking for friendships, romances, fuckmances, likemances...you name it.. some are not looking for anything more than to feel accepted.

But it happens, someone strikes your fancy and you begin...

How you continue it is the key. .. if there is an attraction you will do what works for you, until it doesn't.

[knight]

I wanted to use a broad term like psychology here because I was interested in the broad perspective of people's philosophy and behaviour towards the concept of dating. Conduct which is governed by ethics, morals and values is certainly part of the general psychology/philosophy to the approach of dating. Thank you for your input.





I only dated someone long distance once. I have nothing negative to say about the experience.

It only lasted a short time but distance was only a part of it. No regrets.

I learned enough to know that a ldr is not for me but totally understand how it can work for others.

After that, I absolutely used an online dating site.

I only dated locally. (I will only date locally again).

My recent longer-term ex was 18 miles from me. I really loved it. I enjoyed the easy planning for dates, the spur-of-the-minute dates, "would you like to go to the beach for lunch today? I can pick you up in an hour". Oh yes!

For me, there is no real psychology in online dating other than: honesty and more honesty; being my real, true self with all of the good and bad; ensure that I write an accurate profile because anything not true will be pretty obvious darn quickly; be truthful, too; if there is no chemistry and you know fairly quickly that it is not going to develop.

I have written before that with my recent ex, I did not read her profile carefully enough. She clearly wrote all of the sports and activities she enjoyed but I first of all, was besotted by the handsome butchness of her picture and secondly, the very best behavior that she reflected when we began to date.

She had not written that she expected me to participate in her love of sports or I may have passed.

Who knows? We can always do Monday-morning quarterbacking after a relationship ends.

I should have done more in the beginning but did not. I spent just under 4 years with her and though I moved out last October; I still have not felt ready to date again yet. It takes me a long time to heal and to feel ready to open my heart again. That is just how I am.

By the time I am ready to date again, hopefully, I will have learned from it and will again avail myself of online dating from an identified online dating site.

Online dating sites are the only places that I have found, that I can sort out the butches from the femmes more easily. Speaking of that: I even put in my profile that I was attracted to butch lesbians and I still had femmes respond. Femmes will always be my best friends but I just do not feel attracted to women that look just like me.

Yin and yang, you know!

A final note: I am also struggling with how I would include that I now have physical health challenges that I did not have when I last dated. Do you include that in your profile? Do you tell someone on the first date? Do you wait until you have had a couple of dates? I am at a loss with this one.

[knight]

First I am sorry for taking a long time to respond, I had no idea that this thread would have so much interest. I wanted to give people a chance to comment..

What I meant by "ugly" i think from experience that there is a misconception about an individual that is open to dating people online with the understanding that this is a tool to learn about a person. It is not necessarily a tool to find a wife/partner but it can certainly lead to that. I am not speaking here of a person that is cheating or dating several people the same time and lying about it. I speak here about being completely honest with needs, wants, and capacity. Knowing and preparing oneself for having to possibly date several people at different times to find that special person. To me its the "normal" part of dating. Of course this results in hurt feeling and disappointment, but its not an intentional thing. It is simply the result of two people finding out that they are not for each other.



Knight, It isn't clear to me what you mean by this. What experiences have you had that led you to feeling that dating is considered ugly?

[Lyte]

I'm a tad confused.

If two people are on a "date" or are dating... shouldn't the safe presumption that each is ... in the long run... or at some point... looking for a wife/partner?

Yes, going dates is to learn more about a person but the inherent meaning behind going on a date is that the goal of the parties is to see if they can be ... more than friends. If either individual is not spending time with the other with that goal in mind... can we be more than friends... then that person has an obligation to be make it very clear... this is not a date.




What I meant by "ugly" i think from experience that there is a misconception about an individual that is open to dating people online with the understanding that this is a tool to learn about a person. It is not necessarily a tool to find a wife/partner but it can certainly lead to that.

[knight]

Absolutely not for me. I think its impossible to constantly have capacity for something that is long term. In my opinion, dating is a great way to discover yourself and to grow as a person. I do not believe that in a lifetime that we should always dive into the idea of a marriage. How does one truly understand their need without experiencing life in that way?

I think its great for others that are on a constant search for that one and to be in a position where they can always have capacity for the possibility.

For me it does not work that way. There are stages in life where I feel people have no business diving into a long term relationship.. When do we grow as humans, when do we find out what our truth is.

No right or wrong answer here... but that is my feeling on the matter.




I feel there is just too much stigma given to the words Online/Real life, local/LD.... Dating I think is just how one views it... Some consider it just online dating whilst others see it as something much deeper & much more personal to them...

Why can't we just name it.... Getting to know someone? The word dating seems to box it into this little square of perception that dating is only possible if it's done in real time or if they live within x amount of miles from me.... I don't feel that to be true... You often can't control who you fall for... Love is just love...

For me it was much more personal then just an online date thing... I was spending the same amount of my real time quality time getting to know my potential partner then as I would in my real life...

If you want something to work it's like anything... Effort needs to be made & you need to know what it is you're both reaching for & you're both on the same page otherwise it will never work...

I'm a tad confused.

If two people are on a "date" or are dating... shouldn't the safe presumption that each is ... in the long run... or at some point... looking for a wife/partner?

Yes, going dates is to learn more about a person but the inherent meaning behind going on a date is that the goal of the parties is to see if they can be ... more than friends. If either individual is not spending time with the other with that goal in mind... can we be more than friends... then that person has an obligation to be make it very clear... this is not a date.

[girl_dee]

I'm a tad confused.

If two people are on a "date" or are dating... shouldn't the safe presumption that each is ... in the long run... or at some point... looking for a wife/partner?




Nope... i want to date, not settle.down...

[Lyte]

Oh yeah... I get that date/dating has different meanings/motives for different people. BUT... it's important to realize that there is a generally understood/accepted meaning/motive to date/dating ... even if it doesn't apply to us.

A quick Google of the definition ...

1. establish or ascertain the date of (an object or event).
2. indicate or expose as being old-fashioned.
3. go out with (someone in whom one is romantically or sexually interested).

Or WIKI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating)...

"Dating is a stage of romantic or sexual relationships in humans whereby two or more people meet socially, possibly as friends or with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a prospective partner in a more committed intimate relationship or marriage. It can be a form of courtship that consists of social activities done by the couple."

So... as long as one verbalizes to the other party ... in advance... that their particular definition does not follow/align with the generally accepted definition of date/dating... I say go for it! To do otherwise will very likely lead to a misunderstanding and hurt feelings.


Absolutely not for me. I think its impossible to constantly have capacity for something that is long term. In my opinion, dating is a great way to discover yourself and to grow as a person. I do not believe that in a lifetime that we should always dive into the idea of a marriage. How does one truly understand their need without experiencing life in that way?

I think its great for others that are on a constant search for that one and to be in a position where they can always have capacity for the possibility.

For me it does not work that way. There are stages in life where I feel people have no business diving into a long term relationship.. When do we grow as humans, when do we find out what our truth is.

No right or wrong answer here... but that is my feeling on the matter.

Nope... i want to date, not settle.down...

[2qt]

I hear what you're saying & agree to some extent...

It's all really our own perceptions I believe...

To me when I go on a date with someone, it has no stigma attached to it, IE... I am not dating them to marry them or uhaul myself into their home, I am not dating them to be their partner at the end of that date, I date to get to know the person I am feeling attraction towards etc & to see where things lead...

But I guess the hope would be there for this to be something more if we hit it off very well for it to be long term partners/marriage.... Otherwise I would just consider it a friendship.....

I have never considered dating a friend as a means to get to know them or myself....My friendships have been pretty much developed known from the start it would be nothing more then a friendship...




Absolutely not for me. I think its impossible to constantly have capacity for something that is long term. In my opinion, dating is a great way to discover yourself and to grow as a person. I do not believe that in a lifetime that we should always dive into the idea of a marriage. How does one truly understand their need without experiencing life in that way?

I think its great for others that are on a constant search for that one and to be in a position where they can always have capacity for the possibility.

For me it does not work that way. There are stages in life where I feel people have no business diving into a long term relationship.. When do we grow as humans, when do we find out what our truth is.

No right or wrong answer here... but that is my feeling on the matter.

[Gemme]

Oh yeah... I get that date/dating has different meanings/motives for different people. BUT... it's important to realize that there is a generally understood/accepted meaning/motive to date/dating ... even if it doesn't apply to us.

A quick Google of the definition ...

1. establish or ascertain the date of (an object or event).
2. indicate or expose as being old-fashioned.
3. go out with (someone in whom one is romantically or sexually interested).

Or WIKI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating)...

"Dating is a stage of romantic or sexual relationships in humans whereby two or more people meet socially, possibly as friends or with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a prospective partner in a more committed intimate relationship or marriage. It can be a form of courtship that consists of social activities done by the couple."

So... as long as one verbalizes to the other party ... in advance... that their particular definition does not follow/align with the generally accepted definition of date/dating... I say go for it! To do otherwise will very likely lead to a misunderstanding and hurt feelings.

I honestly don't know why this was posted. Please enlighten me?

Everyone knows what the general idea of dating is but not everyone leads a 'general' life. I understand WHAT you are saying, but I'm fuzzy on the WHY and why is it that you specifically addressed the posts of poly folks. Is that part of your point?

*confused*

[Lyte]

Sure! :)

I was responding to knight and dee's response to my previous post. I believe they had the impression that I believed ... or was saying... that the sole or primary purpose of dating was to find a life partner. That's not what was saying. That's not my belief. So, I was clarifying that I understand that the sole/primary purpose of dating is NOT to find a life partner. However... and even so... lol .... I do believe that going on a date does have an inherent ... or historical... meaning for most people. Therefore it's incumbent upon those who see dating differently to articulate to those they are dating exactly what dating means to them. N'est–ce pas? ;)

This is why I asked this question elsewhere ... why does "getting to know someone" require going on a date?

Have I better clarified my clarification?? :p

Oh... and... I have no idea who the "poly folk" are on BFP. I wasn't even aware poly relationships had entered the discussion.



I honestly don't know why this was posted. Please enlighten me?

Everyone knows what the general idea of dating is but not everyone leads a 'general' life. I understand WHAT you are saying, but I'm fuzzy on the WHY and why is it that you specifically addressed the posts of poly folks. Is that part of your point?

*confused*

[JDeere]

Nope... i want to date, not settle.down...

Same with me Dee, I'm looking to date not to settle down by any means...

[girl_dee]

Oh yeah... I get that date/dating has different meanings/motives for different people. BUT... it's important to realize that there is a generally understood/accepted meaning/motive to date/dating ... even if it doesn't apply to us.

A quick Google of the definition ...

1. establish or ascertain the date of (an object or event).
2. indicate or expose as being old-fashioned.
3. go out with (someone in whom one is romantically or sexually interested).

Or WIKI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating)...

"Dating is a stage of romantic or sexual relationships in humans whereby two or more people meet socially, possibly as friends or with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a prospective partner in a more committed intimate relationship or marriage. It can be a form of courtship that consists of social activities done by the couple."

So... as long as one verbalizes to the other party ... in advance... that their particular definition does not follow/align with the generally accepted definition of date/dating... I say go for it! To do otherwise will very likely lead to a misunderstanding and hurt feelings.


Do not agree here. if i go on a date with someone, i am under no obligation to disclose my intentions. If they are seeing a life partner, thats on them. If i KNOW they are looking for a wife, i do disclose that i am not interested in that.




i also found a simple definition of a date...

date1
dāt/Submit
noun
1.
the day of the month or year as specified by a number.
"what's the date today?"
synonyms: day, day of the month, occasion, time; More
2.
a social or romantic appointment or engagement.
"a college student on a date with someone he met in class"
synonyms: appointment, meeting, engagement, rendezvous, assignation; commitment
"a lunch date"


:)

[Lyte]

I don't understand this. Please clarify.

Do not agree here. if i go on a date with someone, i am under no obligation to disclose my intentions. If they are seeing a life partner, thats on them.


We are in agreement here. If you want something different than the person you're dating, you let them know.

If i KNOW they are looking for a wife, i do disclose that i am not interested in that

[Gemme]

Sure! :)

I was responding to knight and dee's response to my previous post. I believe they had the impression that I believed ... or was saying... that the sole or primary purpose of dating was to find a life partner. That's not what was saying. That's not my belief. So, I was clarifying that I understand that the sole/primary purpose of dating is NOT to find a life partner. However... and even so... lol .... I do believe that going on a date does have an inherent ... or historical... meaning for most people. Therefore it's incumbent upon those who see dating differently to articulate to those they are dating exactly what dating means to them. N'est–ce pas? ;)

This is why I asked this question elsewhere ... why does "getting to know someone" require going on a date?

Have I better clarified my clarification?? :p

Oh... and... I have no idea who the "poly folk" are on BFP. I wasn't even aware poly relationships had entered the discussion.

Thank you for the clarification of your clarification.

[knight]

This is about relationships in general but I think its also important when dating.


/6kUoTS3Yo4g

[gotoseagrl]

This is brilliant. Thank you.



This is about relationships in general but I think its also important when dating.


/6kUoTS3Yo4g

[knight]

In the Buddhist teaching of love, there are four elements. The first is maitri – friendship, brotherhood, loving-kindness. And the second is karuna – capacity to understand the suffering and help remove and transform it – compassion. Mudita is the third element – joy – your joy is her joy, her joy is our joy. The last element is upeksha – nondiscrimination. This is a higher form of love. The four qualities have no limits – infinite love – these elements are also call the Four Unlimited Minds.

The bodhisattva of love is in you.

/_FCIIDmN_Po


I felt that this is so important that I also posted it in the Buddhist thread.

[knight]

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

[girl_dee]

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

MY thoughts:

this is a fine line.

do i love unconditionally, yes. i love all people even the ones i don't like. Do i want all people in my life ? Heck no. That is conditional.

Indiscriminately... nope, love for all people

selflessly,... i would like to say yes, but honestly, no. Maybe that is something i need to work on.

[girl_dee]

MY thoughts:

this is a fine line.

do i love unconditionally, yes. i love all people even the ones i don't like. Do i want all people in my life ? Heck no. That is conditional.

Indiscriminately... nope, love for all people

selflessly,... i would like to say yes, but honestly, no. Maybe that is something i need to work on.


Sorry meant to say yes, indiscriminately ...

also meant to finish my thought on the fine line.

i struggle to feel love for people who hurt me, intentionally, with malice. i know i do have love for them, because they are damaged people, but i think my brain just won't let me feel it like i should. The inward impression is love, but the outgoing is hate. Maybe once i can forgive i won't hate as much.

Is it possible to feel love and hate at the same time? Because that's whats going on with certain people for me.

i don't even know if any of that makes sense.

[gotoseagrl]

I agree with dee, which was an honest answer. I believe that even if we love someone unconditionally, we still have the right to choose if it is healthy to have them in our life closely, romantically, or however. Sometimes part of loving each other that way is letting go or letting be whatever is best. Always wanting whatever is best for the other person as much as for yourself, which is a selfless love. We have to love and honor ourselves and core beliefs/values before we truly can know how to do it with anyone else.


As far as this relating to the original topic here, I was recently reading somewhere someone said that when dating someone, people are always wondering if "this is the one" or if the two are in love vs infatuation. His reply was that instead, people need to question if that is someone they can learn about true and healthy love with - not just during the good times, but through any type of situation. I think it's easy for a lot (if not most?) people to overlook that kind of important question when thinking about being serious with someone. Even in online/LDR dating.


Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

[kittygrrl]

Sorry meant to say yes, indiscriminately ...

also meant to finish my thought on the fine line.

i struggle to feel love for people who hurt me, intentionally, with malice. i know i do have love for them, because they are damaged people, but i think my brain just won't let me feel it like i should. The inward impression is love, but the outgoing is hate. Maybe once i can forgive i won't hate as much.

Is it possible to feel love and hate at the same time? Because that's whats going on with certain people for me.

i don't even know if any of that makes sense.

You make perfect sense...It's a struggle I have within myself..I want to do better because it's something that's important to me and the universe.

[~ocean]

I understand how you both feel Dee & Kitty :) I also agree too !! you can't heal the world makes ya soooooooo tired lol ~ keep sharing the love sisters ^5 ~

[girl_dee]

You make perfect sense...It's a struggle I have within myself..I want to do better because it's something that's important to me and the universe.

thank you.

often have conflicting feelings, i think you can love more when you forgive.

So then just forgive, right? i am not there yet. We are taught that not forgiving keeps us hostage, and i get that, but i don't feel it. i haven't forgiven certain people. If there is no remorse, how can i ?

i struggle.

[BullDog]

When it comes to people who I feel have hurt me and/or been very unfair to me, the best place for me to get is to neither hate or love them and just wish them well. I actually don't hate anyone I have ever known (romantic or otherwise) and don't believe I ever have. My parents really drilled into me never to hate anyone and I think that really stuck. The only people I can imagine hating are those who commit horrific crimes.

I have at times felt a lot of hurt and anger, and when I can get to more of a place of neutrality that is a lot better for me than to try to force feelings of love. The hardest part is when the anger dies down (which for me is usually fairly quickly) but when I still have a lot of hurt. If I can get past that point where it doesn't hurt so badly then it is much easier.

I also don't feel under obligation to love everyone I know or love everyone in the world. I am selective of who I love (both romantic or otherwise) and I really am okay with that. I love humanity as a whole and believe in our basic goodness even though there are a lot of horrific things done. I believe in social justice and working to make the world a better place, and I do think humans are capable of that - may just be my bleeding liberal heart, lol.

[Gemme]

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

I think it's unhealthy to love everyone all the time with all of yourself--no matter what. Absolutely unrealistic too. I have boundaries and if those boundaries are crossed, then that person or persons require me to be more careful with my feelings and emotions around them. My personal, emotional and psychological safety is more important than someone else's feelings.

Maybe I'm a hard ass, but I feel no conflict or remorse about this.

[AmazonDC]

I think it's unhealthy to love everyone all the time with all of yourself--no matter what. Absolutely unrealistic too. I have boundaries and if those boundaries are crossed, then that person or persons require me to be more careful with my feelings and emotions around them. My personal, emotional and psychological safety is more important than someone else's feelings.


Maybe I'm a hard ass, but I feel no conflict or remorse about this.


Hmmm? Interesting thought.. maybe I am just too nice a person

[Gemme]

Hmmm? Interesting thought.. maybe I am just too nice a person

Yes, You are. Far too nice.

[kittygrrl]

Thinking back..I never thought getting to know someone online was dating...I just thought of it as fun and often interesting....I regret many things, but that's not one of them:tea:

[Greco]

Spot on Gemme. I read your knowledge of the importance of boundaries as Self-love, and Self-protection. And absolutely necessary, period.

Hard-assed? No way Gemme, very healthy indeed. We live in a society where
there are people that have no remorse, or conscience and "suck" the life out of
people that are empathic and have no boundaries.

So, what I've learned is this...to learn what boundaries are, and implement them in my life in all areas, relationships, work, play. And for people that cross boundaries such a huge red flag, they are not allowed in my life in any way, shape or form. No apologies from me.

Right on Gemme.

Greco

I think it's unhealthy to love everyone all the time with all of yourself--no matter what. Absolutely unrealistic too. I have boundaries and if those boundaries are crossed, then that person or persons require me to be more careful with my feelings and emotions around them. My personal, emotional and psychological safety is more important than someone else's feelings.

Maybe I'm a hard ass, but I feel no conflict or remorse about this.

[Lyte]

I'm not sure human beings have the capacity to love like this...

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

Playing devil's advocate here...

Wouldn't a love that's indiscriminate ... while seemingly wonderful on it's face... be sort of a ... "cheapened" ... sort of love? Perhaps that's not the ideal word for it. Meaning, if someone loves everyone ... regardless... what value is their love to each individual? Does it mean anything?

I do differentiate humans' capacity for love from the capacity of a higher power to love.

[2qt]

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

A long time ago I would have said yes to all of the above...... However over the years I have learnt some valuable lessons & now I am at.......Those who I bring into my personal circle of life.... I absolutely love unconditionally... I am just selective on who I let into that circle in the 1st place... It's a self protection boundary...

If I am hurt by someone I have let in, I find it difficult to connect to them in the same light as I did before & sometimes I do find forgiveness but I love them with a sense of caution if that makes sense? If they deliberately hurt me again I remove them from my life... So in a sense... I guess I do have some conditions on love which I am working on some of those factors.... (How much I am willing to tolerate in my life has a boundary & I find boundaries healthy)

Indiscriminately.... I like to think yes, I love peoples uniqueness & believe everyone has something different they bring to the table & there for I love each of them differently for different reasons.... But like everything... I am selective of who I let into that circle because my personal safe boundary is there for a reason & have learnt over the years that whilst your intentions are good... Not everyone else has that same intention.....

Selflessly..... No... I did once & it drained the life out of me for many years, by loving someone so selflessly I forgot who I was, I forgot how to be me & enjoy being me.... I was mentally & physically exhausted which is not healthy for any person to be involved with romantically or friendly... When I am in love with someone I love them, but I don't compromise myself anymore... Because I matter too & it's taken me a long time to say those 4 words...

I guess boundaries are what always come into play for me... We all have humanity etc but I also think not compromising what makes you healthy & happy should be priority as well...

[BullDog]

I do differentiate humans' capacity for love from the capacity of a higher power to love.


This part of your post really struck me. I'm just bouncing off that because my idea here might not be quite what you were referring to, but I did like your post.

I think as a human being I have both a limited capacity and an unlimited capacity to love. My limits are I only have so much energy, time, strength, courage, etc. and there are also the healthy boundaries several people have discussed.

Where the unlimited capacity comes in is I have loved a few people in my life where I did feel my love continue to grow and grow. You think you love someone as much as you possibly can and then the next day you love them even more. Not from some crazy frentic ‌infautation, or because you had great sex the night before or the person did something amazing for you, but just from having that close connection that much longer. To me that is an amazing and beautiful thing. I think a similar thing can happen with loving yourself, loving family, friends or other non-romantic forms of love, loving your art or vocation or calling.

So I do think as humans we do have limits to our love and boundaries that are critical, but we also have the unlimited capacity to love when the conditions are right, and that is one of the most amazing qualities that humans have.

[Lyte]

This part of your post really struck me... back! ;)

The "...when the conditions are right..." is what makes me say I don't believe human beings are capable of ... unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly love. And it's true for me too! And it's what I hope is true for my particular higher power.

I use the HP term just because not everyone believes the same one.


So I do think as humans we do have limits to our love and boundaries that are critical, but we also have the unlimited capacity to love when the conditions are right, and that is one of the most amazing qualities that humans have.

[Lyte]

Opps... my BFP proofreader just advised me... :p

And it's what I hope is not true for my particular higher power.

;)

The "...when the conditions are right..." is what makes me say I don't believe human beings are capable of ... unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly love. And it's true for me too! And it's what I hope is true for my particular higher power.

[kittygrrl]

I feel a little differently...the conditions to love are never perfect..that's just wishful thinking that you may get that perfect person who deserves all your love..we aren't made that way because even in the midst of greatness we are flawed..you just have to take your chances and do your best to make good choices and hopefully you will find a partner (when you are open) who shares your interests and your temperaments compliment each other.

yin (to his) yang

[BullDog]

I don't think conditions or people (definitely including me) are perfect either. But there are some conditions and people who make it more conducive to having a healthier and deeper love - for me. I connect more deeply and closer to some people more than others - it's just a combination of things that allows it to occur. And someone I might not form a deep connection with can certainly form a deep connection with someone else.

[Femmewench]

Thoughts on loving unconditionally, indiscriminately and selflessly?

Unconditionally doesn't exist or shouldn't. Abuse in any form should effect loving. I may still care enough to hope the person gets help, but my own self-love preclude me from continuing with that person.

Selflessly isn't healthy. A sense of self and what I need is required in order to flourish. I loved selflessly for many years and it served the purpose of making me forget who I was when I was happy. I'm rediscovering her now.

Indiscriminately isn't healthy either. We all should discriminate when choosing people we let into our lives. Once you see the red flags, love yourself enough to remove that person from your life.

I probably shouldn't be posting this in my current head space, but what the heck.

[kassykit]

I will say that I have dated online for years. Part of my reason for this is I am not very confident in my real life. I also work at a major University in the bible belt!

In my real life I have to put on a mask of self-assurance, calm, and being in control. I hide behind various defense mechanisms to keep the real me from those who would hurt me.

I am a submissive woman. I am attracted to women. I do not care if a woman is butch, femme, or anywhere on that spectrum. I work in a job where I have to appear dominant. I have to be strict. I could never even hint that I am malleable, bendable, and well that i like my partner to "take control." It simply would not be appropriate.

Secretly I crave to find the one woman who doesn't mind my being on my knees so to speak. Someone who is comfortable being the dominant partner in the relationship. Someone who knows the difference between being in charge and being an abusive asshole. (If that makes any sense). So by dating a person online first I can get to know them, well at least the picture they paint of themselves.

I am not a skinny girl. People have told me I am pretty but well I rarely feel that way. I am awkward, introverted, and caring. The face I show to the world is none of those things. I play the role of extroverted PhD Candidate pretty darn well, and I hate it.

Does anyone else just crave for a place, a person that they can just be the person they are on the inside? Here, online, at least I can in the smallest bit. Yes, my ultimate dream is to find myself a partner who is dominant, self-assured, and secure in herself (or if preferring male pronouns, himself).