Trans or Butch

[Ender]

I've been in this weird state in between trans male and butch female and was wondering if I could get some insight from those who are butch females.

I've been actively questioning for about 5-6 years now, and I've been always going back and forth between the two. The part of me that thinks I'm a trans male is that I express myself in a more masculine manner (however, butch women also do), I pack and bind, and would prefer to compress my chest and would like the option to go shirtless (though, who doesn't). I like male and neutral pronouns, and I am seen by the majority of people as male.

I'm not out to anyone, so I can't really ask someone to call me by my preferred name/pronouns, but I have been trying this online. I've always chose to present myself as male or masculine online (in games, forums, etc) and I was just wondering if this was common amongst other butch women.

There have also been times as a child where I've had thoughts about how I would go about telling people what happened to [given name] if I were to present as male and go by a male name. I also wondered, when I was 9-10, if other girls hated being girls also.

I don't know, I'm just really confused.

[Clyde]

Hey Ender - Of course, I can only speak for myself, so the usual disclaimers apply. I consider myself a "butch guy" which, to me, equates to a masculine spirit in a female body. If you're asking whether other people choose to present themselves as male or masculine online, you'd get a "yes" from me. That is one of the reasons I come to this site. Given most opportunities, I choose male or gender neutral ("they") pronouns. It usually makes me feel weird to be called by female terms, like "lady" or "dear", even when people don't mean anything by it.

I've considered whether transitioning was something I might do, but for me, for various reasons, I've landed on just being what I am. And again, speaking for me and not anyone else who might decide to get their feathers ruffled by that statement.

Your journey is your own, of course. But I can relate to where you're at, if that helps at all.

[Ender]

Hey Ender - Of course, I can only speak for myself, so the usual disclaimers apply. I consider myself a "butch guy" which, to me, equates to a masculine spirit in a female body. If you're asking whether other people choose to present themselves as male or masculine online, you'd get a "yes" from me. That is one of the reasons I come to this site. Given most opportunities, I choose male or gender neutral ("they") pronouns. It usually makes me feel weird to be called by female terms, like "lady" or "dear", even when people don't mean anything by it.

I've considered whether transitioning was something I might do, but for me, for various reasons, I've landed on just being what I am. And again, speaking for me and not anyone else who might decide to get their feathers ruffled by that statement.

Your journey is your own, of course. But I can relate to where you're at, if that helps at all.

That does help. Thank you.

[ardentfemme]

I don't mean to intrude, but I thought maybe I could share some resources that might be helpful.

Ivan Coyote writes a lot about occupying this liminal space between trans and butch. "I had already spent years feeling like I was perched with one foot on a trans-shaped rowboat and the other foot resting on a butch dock, balancing myself and my language and words and work in the space between them," they wrote in "Between the Boat and the Dock." (https://www.facebook.com/ThePrideChronicles/posts/595113043929997).

Another piece by Coyote that might resonate with you is "Shouldn't I Feel Pretty?" (https://thewalrus.ca/shouldnt-i-feel-pretty/).

Lastly, I'm sure you've heard of (if not already read) the seminal Stone Butch Blues. It can be found here for free: http://www.lesliefeinberg.net/

I hope you get the advice and support you need. Also I hope you know there are many ways to be butch or trans or a combination of both, and they're all valid.

Best of luck to you on your journey.

[VintageFemme]

I imagine it must be very unsettling and confusing growing up feeling one way and looking another. I can say that I have only ever been with butches and one trans person but from my observations over the years, I have come to the conclusion that there are simply more than two genders. It is just not as black and white as male and female. And, not every butch is transgendered. I do believe that one day, science will show that there are in fact many genders. Embracing who you are and 'you doing you' is the best advice anyone can probably give but y'know what, aren't we fortunate that we live in a time that if it isn't right, science can fix nature's mistake.

(Sorry for chiming in on a butch conversation but I'm an old woman and have seen this struggle so often and sometimes just having someone else validate who we are can be enough to turn some things around. Best of luck.)

P.s. ardentfemme, I have this monster crush on Ivan Coyote! I love that you referenced him here. Nice.

[JDeere]

I do not see myself as butch female. Butch yes woman no. I prefer male pronouns. I teeter on the trans/butch spectrum and some folks can't understand it.

All this gender talk confuses me but i live in a black and white world, grew up in one as well and alot of this new fanagled terms/ labels or what not confuse me.

Just be yourself, thats the best advice i can give.

[Femminator]

I do not see myself as butch female. Butch yes woman no. I prefer male pronouns. I teeter on the trans/butch spectrum and some folks can't understand it.

All this gender talk confuses me but i live in a black and white world, grew up in one as well and alot of this new fanagled terms/ labels or what not confuse me.

Just be yourself, thats the best advice i can give.

Completely get it. My Partner is Non binary and is MOC as well. They like they/them, is getting top surgery, may take T, but that is all. Does not identify as male. There are lots of MOC Butches out there and some say they are trans and others butch. Mine too teeters on the Trans/Butch spectrum. I do not think it is uncommon actually.

[Mel C.]

I don't consider myself to be on the trans part of the continuum. I'm a butch woman. I have packed, but I don't regularly. I have used chest compression shirts, but not regularly. I prefer male pronouns within the B-F community. I consider it an acknowledgement of my being butch. I don't present myself as male, but I don't correct people who refer to me using male pronouns. As a child, I used to play dress up in my brothers clothes. At times, I wished I was male. I'd rather have a chest than breasts. That being said, I have no desire to transition from female to male. Like I said, I'm a butch woman.

Helpful to know you aren't alone when you find yourself confused? You aren't alone, no matter where you are on the continuum. Like JDeere said, just be you.

[BullDog]

I am a Stone Butch, completely masculine and go by She. I will have chest surgery if I have the opportunity but do not view myself as male or wish to transition.

[Kosmo]

It is a journey for me. Never ending maybe. I've had top surgery. I've never experienced gender dysphoria. I think I'm coming to appreciate the feminine in me. That I'm more apt to describe myself lately as masculine leaning, but not male.

My internal view is basically, just me. Keeping it simple.

Butch is such a good word though. I am butch.

Great conversation.

[Stronghealer]

.


I am trans
I am butch
I am a dyke



.

[cathexis]

Must I feel exceptionally butch to feel
transgendered???

[Ender]

Ugh...I hate this feeling! I hate feeling like half-trans, half-butch! I don't know how to transition feeling like this. Do I change my name? Do I medically transition? If I medically transition, will I regret it? It's beating me up and I don't know what to do. I wish I had a more androgynous name or even a masculine version of my name would be great, but no.

How did/do you butches go about this? Do you still have your given name? Did you change your name? Did you choose to medically transition, even part-way?

I'm also wondering when I do tell someone irl about all this, will they even take me seriously? Or will they think I'm making it up because LGBT+ people are so openly talked about now-a-days?

I remember my dad saying a few years ago, that he loves me no matter what as long as I'm happy, but I'm still terrified I might be going down the wrong path, and end up regretting it in the future. :crybaby: :thud:

[JDeere]

Ugh...I hate this feeling! I hate feeling like half-trans, half-butch! I don't know how to transition feeling like this. Do I change my name? Do I medically transition? If I medically transition, will I regret it? It's beating me up and I don't know what to do. I wish I had a more androgynous name or even a masculine version of my name would be great, but no.

How did/do you butches go about this? Do you still have your given name? Did you change your name? Did you choose to medically transition, even part-way?

I'm also wondering when I do tell someone irl about all this, will they even take me seriously? Or will they think I'm making it up because LGBT+ people are so openly talked about now-a-days?

I remember my dad saying a few years ago, that he loves me no matter what as long as I'm happy, but I'm still terrified I might be going down the wrong path, and end up regretting it in the future. :crybaby: :thud:


Seek counseling with a gltbqi based support system. One of my ex's is mtf she sought counseling to help her in the beginning and continues counseling for herself.

[Esme nha Maire]

Ugh...I hate this feeling! I hate feeling like half-trans, half-butch! I don't know how to transition feeling like this. Do I change my name? Do I medically transition? If I medically transition, will I regret it? It's beating me up and I don't know what to do. I wish I had a more androgynous name or even a masculine version of my name would be great, but no.

How did/do you butches go about this? Do you still have your given name? Did you change your name? Did you choose to medically transition, even part-way?

I'm also wondering when I do tell someone irl about all this, will they even take me seriously? Or will they think I'm making it up because LGBT+ people are so openly talked about now-a-days?

I remember my dad saying a few years ago, that he loves me no matter what as long as I'm happy, but I'm still terrified I might be going down the wrong path, and end up regretting it in the future. :crybaby: :thud:

Hi, Ender! Ender, I'm an MTF, and was always sure I was female, so I can't speak to your situation other than generally.

I can only advise that you try to look at each aspect of your situation in isolation first (physical, visual presentation, where you feel you want to fit in socially, what name you feel happy with, etc. Break it all down and note what you'd feel happy with separately first), and then see if you can come to an overall conclusion. If you glom everything together and try to tackle it as a whole it can make it much harder to see a solution that you're happy with. Especially when it comes to any kind of medical intervention, you need to think first about how YOU feel about your body - not what anybody else thinks about it - it's YOUR body, and you're going to have to live with the result, if you have medical intervention. If anyone else doesn't like what you do with your body, that's THEIR problem, not yours, so don't even give what they think in that regard a moments thought.

In essence, think about what you'd be like in your ideal world - then consider how you can in practice get from the you now to the you you wish to be. And always, always, be YOU. You do not have to fit anybody else's labels or pigeonholes.

As for what people will think - they'll think whatever they're inclined to - the more bigoted will remain bigoted, the more enlightened will understand, and those in-between will learn and hopefully still like and love you for being you. Any person of good heart will want you to be happy dear. The rest you should ignore.

Good luck, Ender - may deity smile upon you and bring you success in your journey!

Esme x

[Kelt]

Ugh...I hate this feeling! I hate feeling like half-trans, half-butch! I don't know how to transition feeling like this. Do I change my name? Do I medically transition? If I medically transition, will I regret it? It's beating me up and I don't know what to do. I wish I had a more androgynous name or even a masculine version of my name would be great, but no.

How did/do you butches go about this? Do you still have your given name? Did you change your name? Did you choose to medically transition, even part-way?

I'm also wondering when I do tell someone irl about all this, will they even take me seriously? Or will they think I'm making it up because LGBT+ people are so openly talked about now-a-days?

I remember my dad saying a few years ago, that he loves me no matter what as long as I'm happy, but I'm still terrified I might be going down the wrong path, and end up regretting it in the future. :crybaby: :thud:

I want to start with the parts I bolded. The short answer is; you don't.

The rest of your post shows that you are still in the discovery phase of decision making and that is a good thing. You are identifying the things that you will have to be completely comfortable with before taking any irreversible actions. It's okay! Relax. Breathe.

I'm an old dog and these options were not available when I was your age. I think that today there is a lot of peer pressure to transition or not, right now. It doesn't have to be that way. Take your time to get comfortable with each of these aspects, start with the small pieces and do what feels right until you have gotten to the point that feels right for YOU.

You said you want a masculine or less feminine name, maybe you could adopt a nickname for a while and if it fits make it legal later. I did this 30 years ago. If you aren't already dressing the part, try it. How does that work for you walking down a regular street, not a gay or trans neighborhood, or college campus, just a "rest of the world" place. Are you comfortable? Do you get stared at? Are you okay with that? Does it feel like you are finally in your right skin?

How much time have you spent living/working in cis male space and is that the comfortable spot for you socially?

Just my opinion, but I think that if you go ahead and try some the things you can reverse if you find it isn't right would be a good starting point. It will be a lot easier than jumping straight into things you can't undo since you are still in a conflicted space. Do your own research your own way until you know in your gut that you are doing what is right for you, there is no rush.

Now that I re-read this, pretty much what Esme x said, lol.

[DapperButch]

Ugh...I hate this feeling! I hate feeling like half-trans, half-butch! I don't know how to transition feeling like this. Do I change my name? Do I medically transition? If I medically transition, will I regret it? It's beating me up and I don't know what to do. I wish I had a more androgynous name or even a masculine version of my name would be great, but no.

How did/do you butches go about this? Do you still have your given name? Did you change your name? Did you choose to medically transition, even part-way?

I'm also wondering when I do tell someone irl about all this, will they even take me seriously? Or will they think I'm making it up because LGBT+ people are so openly talked about now-a-days?

I remember my dad saying a few years ago, that he loves me no matter what as long as I'm happy, but I'm still terrified I might be going down the wrong path, and end up regretting it in the future. :crybaby: :thud:

Ender, the first thing I want to say is that I "hear you". As a butch, I struggled with the question of if I should medically transition for over 15 years. I identified as a transgender butch all of those years. Not a woman, but not a man. Not female, closer to male, but not male. 3.5 years ago I started testosterone and I kick myself for not doing it sooner.

First off, you are right, it is "terrifying". For 15 years I left myself in that place of angst, distress, frustration, and obsessive thinking about whether or not I should medically transition. It negatively impacted my romantic relationships, negatively effected all social areas (anything outside the house), and my professional growth (I avoided being "visible" due to social dysphoria).

I thought, and went to therapy, and twisted myself into knots with reasons that I wasn't "male", which is what was expected by professionals and myself to determine if I should take testosterone.

I did get top surgery.

But even with top surgery (the source of my dysphoria...I had no problems with how my overall body or face looked), I STILL couldn't come to the conclusion as to whether or not I should medically (and thereby socially) transition. You know what helped me figure it out? How I figured it out? I took a very, very low dose of testosterone. That is how I figured it out. I took a low dose so that I could see if I felt any emotional effects while holding off any lowering of my voice.

I wanted to know, needed to know, if the emotional effects people talk about had anything to do with brain function and wasn't just about external changes, as people said was the case. You know what I found out? For ME, I need testosterone. It doesn't matter if I am read as binary male or not, my brain needs this medication. It may sound crazy, but my thinking was if the "side effect" of this medication is being seen as male, so be it because I need this drug.

I do identify as binary male at this point (and still butch), and I don't mind what I thought I would dislike (facial hair), but that isn't all of it for me. It is the mental health. The mental health is so much better. I am sure that if external changes didn't also come with the mental changes I would still have dysphoria, as I DO want to be read as male and have those changes, but what I wanted to add to this discussion is that the mental changes, simply due to the hormone, should not be discounted.

I would suggest that you do what Esme nha Maire so eloquently (which I quoted at the end of my post), and then go from there.

The other responses in this thread were helpful too. What I wanted to add to the discussion is that for me, I had to just "take the plunge" when it came to hormones.

I think there are actually two questions for people. What is my gender identity? Do I want to medically and/or socially transition?

You can be non-binary, third gendered, agender, and still take testosterone, and live as male. It goes back to again, who we are externally isn't necessarily who were are internally. Some people don't define as male, but have severe social dysphoria if they are not read and related to as the opposite sex all areas of their life.

In the last 5 or so years more progressive trans health care systems do not work in the binary when it comes to HRT. It used to be that you had to be binary male or binary female in order to take any sort of hormones. If that were still the case (which it is in many areas, still), it is possible that I would still not be on hormones. I was just so afraid of my voice lowering and then deciding it was the wrong thing for me.

Since there is such a thing as low dose, I don't regard hormones as irreversible anymore (in the very short term, especially for trans men). With all of this said, I am NOT suggesting that anyone use hormones as a way to figure out if they are transgender. I just wanted to share that for ME, after that many years, I just had to do something. I think all else should be exhausted first (especially for trans men, due to the voice change).

Oh, and I assume it goes without saying that a gender therapist would be a huge, super huge help to figuring this out.

I have a crap ton more to say on this topic, but I will close for now.


I can only advise that you try to look at each aspect of your situation in isolation first (physical, visual presentation, where you feel you want to fit in socially, what name you feel happy with, etc. Break it all down and note what you'd feel happy with separately first), and then see if you can come to an overall conclusion. If you glom everything together and try to tackle it as a whole it can make it much harder to see a solution that you're happy with.

[DapperButch]

I wanted to know, needed to know, if the emotional effects people talk about had anything to do with brain function and wasn't just about external changes, as people said was the case.

I need to clarify this.... I am saying trans people who go on hormones say that it IS the case that their thinking/emotions improve and become more balanced.
It isn't just about external changes. People feel it immediately. My brain just functions more properly for me, anxiety is way down as is agitation, colors literally looked brighter...crazy, man. For me it took a bit of time for my emotions to balance out because even though I quickly figured out I needed to transition, the time wasn't right at work, so I had to shift gears and go back to low dose for several months. So, my mood didn't level out until I got onto a consistent dose.

[Ender]

I want to thank everyone who commented SO much. I appreciate all of you and your advice you have given me. I think what I might do is when I'm finished up with University, I might go see a therapist (again), I saw one in the past, but only briefly. In the meantime, I think all I might do for now is try to socially transition, find the courage to tell one or two people to call me by my preferred name. I was thinking for a while now about going by Liam. I already kind of came out to my Anthropology Professor (I only have about a month left, but it's still something). I'm trying to work up the courage to tell a couple friends before I never see them again also. For now, I think I'm just going to socially transition since I can pass as male about 90% of the time.

Thank you again for everything!!

[Esme nha Maire]

Good luck, Ender! I hope your social transition goes as well and as happily (or better!) as mine did. Mine wasn't entirely trouble-free, but it made me feel MUCH better internally. Let us know how you get on, sometime, eh?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Aside to Dapper - because hormones change things in your brain and body. Your brain *is* part of your body and part of your endocrine system. So when you take hormones, it will change your brain function.

I've taken hormones for 12 years now. It's changed me mentally and physically.

Hormones control *everything* in our bodies and minds.

This is an incredible and fabulous BBC story about the action and history of hormones by a professor of endocrinology and wonderful storyteller - this is NOT a "boring ol documentary"

It's a beautifully done woven story of history and biology by someone passionate and a crew who love delivering knowledge to general public folk.

This IS NOT a "don't take hormones" post. This is a "why hormones change you so much" post. I only got to study the endocrine system for 3 months, which is nothing, it's the most fucking confusing system in the body and it governs everything. If you think the nervous system is confusing, it has nothing on our hormones.

I'm deeply grateful for the hormones I take. I'd be in agonising chronic pain, unable to work. But they have changed my personality, how I see things, how I react, because that's just hormones. They affect the brain because the brain is part of your body. Personally, I think it changed me for the better.

Anyway, here's the link - please do watch it, it's amazing.

Fantastical World of Hormones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsjva0z0-8k

[DapperButch]

Thank you so much!! I'll watch this.


Aside to Dapper - because hormones change things in your brain and body. Your brain *is* part of your body and part of your endocrine system. So when you take hormones, it will change your brain function.

I've taken hormones for 12 years now. It's changed me mentally and physically.

Hormones control *everything* in our bodies and minds.

This is an incredible and fabulous BBC story about the action and history of hormones by a professor of endocrinology and wonderful storyteller - this is NOT a "boring ol documentary"

It's a beautifully done woven story of history and biology by someone passionate and a crew who love delivering knowledge to general public folk.

This IS NOT a "don't take hormones" post. This is a "why hormones change you so much" post. I only got to study the endocrine system for 3 months, which is nothing, it's the most fucking confusing system in the body and it governs everything. If you think the nervous system is confusing, it has nothing on our hormones.

I'm deeply grateful for the hormones I take. I'd be in agonising chronic pain, unable to work. But they have changed my personality, how I see things, how I react, because that's just hormones. They affect the brain because the brain is part of your body. Personally, I think it changed me for the better.

Anyway, here's the link - please do watch it, it's amazing.

Fantastical World of Hormones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsjva0z0-8k

[Femminator]

I do not see myself as butch female. Butch yes woman no. I prefer male pronouns. I teeter on the trans/butch spectrum and some folks can't understand it.

All this gender talk confuses me but i live in a black and white world, grew up in one as well and alot of this new fanagled terms/ labels or what not confuse me.

Just be yourself, thats the best advice i can give.

My partner is the same. They struggled with the trans/Butch spectrum and now via 2 yrs therapy have identified as a Non binary or Transmasculine Butch. They are certain they don't fit int he gender binary and only is having top surgery, maybe some T for voice. However, does not identify as Trans. It's been a journey for us to say the least! They also grew up with black and white labels and it's really been tough.

[JDeere]

My partner is the same. They struggled with the trans/Butch spectrum and now via 2 yrs therapy have identified as a Non binary or Transmasculine Butch. They are certain they don't fit int he gender binary and only is having top surgery, maybe some T for voice. However, does not identify as Trans. It's been a journey for us to say the least! They also grew up with black and white labels and it's really been tough.

Awesome sauce. Im glad to.see im not alone on.my sentiment.

[DapperButch]

Aside to Dapper - because hormones change things in your brain and body. Your brain *is* part of your body and part of your endocrine system. So when you take hormones, it will change your brain function.

I've taken hormones for 12 years now. It's changed me mentally and physically.

Hormones control *everything* in our bodies and minds.

This is an incredible and fabulous BBC story about the action and history of hormones by a professor of endocrinology and wonderful storyteller - this is NOT a "boring ol documentary"

It's a beautifully done woven story of history and biology by someone passionate and a crew who love delivering knowledge to general public folk.

This IS NOT a "don't take hormones" post. This is a "why hormones change you so much" post. I only got to study the endocrine system for 3 months, which is nothing, it's the most fucking confusing system in the body and it governs everything. If you think the nervous system is confusing, it has nothing on our hormones.

I'm deeply grateful for the hormones I take. I'd be in agonising chronic pain, unable to work. But they have changed my personality, how I see things, how I react, because that's just hormones. They affect the brain because the brain is part of your body. Personally, I think it changed me for the better.

Anyway, here's the link - please do watch it, it's amazing.

Fantastical World of Hormones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsjva0z0-8k

Thank you so much!! I'll watch this.

I just settled in to watch this. It is one I have already seen. :)

[Lyte]

Prior to my current single status I was in an eight year relationship. Prior to that I was in a two year "girls suck" period and prior to that I was in a nine year relationship. So for about two decades, I didn't know what was going on out here... not just in the single world but the whole not straight world! I've been single for a while now and ... damn... shite has changed! Three things learned in the first few years of being single re: butches and/or trans

When I first returned to the single crowd I was asked ... many times... if I was trans. At first I was (in my head) "huh?" because in my day (20+ years ago) the trans population was ...for the most part... middle aged men deciding they were women. I've since learned that trans ... how do I say this without offending... that trans has become more... accepted... mainstream... an option ... common place ... pick whatever word you prefer to describe how the trans community has evolved in the last 20 years. And.... I've learned that butches are now seen as potentially ... possibly ... trans ... or near trans?

The second thing I learned since returning to the single crowd ... that butches have been become a rare commodity in some places. I've a few femme friends in the PNW and ALL have said that butches are hard to find! My initial reaction was ... come on now! How the hell can there be a shortage of butches in Oregon and Washington? Last time I was there... it was femmes and butches everywhere!

The last thing I've learned ...anecdotally from other LGBTQ website/forums and directly from new butch friends ... is that some butches have felt pressure to transition. Not direct pressure but a cultural ... environmental ... societal ... sort of pressure that the next logical step from butch is to trans ... as if butch is not a perfectly suitable place to be.. full stop. Of course, I'm referring to pressure from our own LGBTQ society... community... etc.

I wonder.... if there's a connection between butches becoming less common in some area and some butches feeling as though they should become trans... or that they really are trans... deep deep down ... somewhere. I don't know if there's a connection but it's a curious thing to consider.

Having said all that... I'm butch and I'm perfectly content as I am. I've no inner voice telling me that I would feel more complete or more fulfilled if I were anything else.

Having said all that and that ... the only suggestion I could make to anyone is to listen to your inner voice and your inner comfort level. Trust that what you hear ... that what you feel... is real and that it's more than enough! And... or... if what your inner self tells is that more or different is needed... then trust that too! My point being... you can trust you to know what's right for you! :)

[CherylNYC]

Prior to my current single status I was in an eight year relationship. Prior to that I was in a two year "girls suck" period and prior to that I was in a nine year relationship. So for about two decades, I didn't know what was going on out here... not just in the single world but the whole not straight world! I've been single for a while now and ... damn... shite has changed! Three things learned in the first few years of being single re: butches and/or trans

When I first returned to the single crowd I was asked ... many times... if I was trans. At first I was (in my head) "huh?" because in my day (20+ years ago) the trans population was ...for the most part... middle aged men deciding they were women. I've since learned that trans ... how do I say this without offending... that trans has become more... accepted... mainstream... an option ... common place ... pick whatever word you prefer to describe how the trans community has evolved in the last 20 years. And.... I've learned that butches are now seen as potentially ... possibly ... trans ... or near trans?

The second thing I learned since returning to the single crowd ... that butches have been become a rare commodity in some places. I've a few femme friends in the PNW and ALL have said that butches are hard to find! My initial reaction was ... come on now! How the hell can there be a shortage of butches in Oregon and Washington? Last time I was there... it was femmes and butches everywhere!

The last thing I've learned ...anecdotally from other LGBTQ website/forums and directly from new butch friends ... is that some butches have felt pressure to transition. Not direct pressure but a cultural ... environmental ... societal ... sort of pressure that the next logical step from butch is to trans ... as if butch is not a perfectly suitable place to be.. full stop. Of course, I'm referring to pressure from our own LGBTQ society... community... etc.

I wonder.... if there's a connection between butches becoming less common in some area and some butches feeling as though they should become trans... or that they really are trans... deep deep down ... somewhere. I don't know if there's a connection but it's a curious thing to consider.

Having said all that... I'm butch and I'm perfectly content as I am. I've no inner voice telling me that I would feel more complete or more fulfilled if I were anything else.

Having said all that and that ... the only suggestion I could make to anyone is to listen to your inner voice and your inner comfort level. Trust that what you hear ... that what you feel... is real and that it's more than enough! And... or... if what your inner self tells is that more or different is needed... then trust that too! My point being... you can trust you to know what's right for you! :)

Yes, it's true. Butch women are a lot less common in my world, too. (NYC area) Some have transitioned medically, or they simply no longer identify as butch or as women. The part that I haven't gotten used to is that many people look exactly like butch women to me, but they identify as trans or as queer, not as butch women. It surprises me every time. I'm not sure if I'll ever get my head around it.

[JDeere]

The butches who still feel female or what have ya are what i see around here as soft butches. I just cant see a hardcore butch saying they are female. Female bodies yes but female in the brain not so much.

[Clyde]

The butches who still feel female or what have ya are what i see around here as soft butches. I just cant see a hardcore butch saying they are female. Female bodies yes but female in the brain not so much.

That's a good way of putting it. I have no problem acknowledging my female body, but I do tend to think of myself as a "queer dude".

[girl_dee]

The butches who still feel female or what have ya are what i see around here as soft butches. I just cant see a hardcore butch saying they are female. Female bodies yes but female in the brain not so much.

i’m not a fan of the term *soft butch* or *hardcore butch*..... for this femme, butch is butch.

i can’t speak to what goes on in a butches brain, but i’d like to think they know they are *butch enough* if they claim butch.

[BullDog]

No, I am female and definitely do not consider myself a soft butch. I am hardcore - although I also agree with dee that soft and hard core are not great terms to use. This is pretty insulting.

The butches who still feel female or what have ya are what i see around here as soft butches. I just cant see a hardcore butch saying they are female. Female bodies yes but female in the brain not so much.

[Lyte]

Similar terms in my day but the two main ones were butch and soft butch. One would add the adjective soft if you wanted to identify as less masculine/male acting... feeling.. etc... etc... than just butch. Then we had dyke or bull dyke as popular terms used to describe lesbians even more masculine acting/appearance than butch.

Of course, how you saw yourself was not always the same as how others saw you!


The butches who still feel female or what have ya are what i see around here as soft butches. I just cant see a hardcore butch saying they are female. Female bodies yes but female in the brain not so much.

[Lyte]

Totally with you on this! :blink: I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the "options"... and the names... that have popped up in the last 20 years!

I certainly don't mind getting with the program ... so to speak... but what has really disturbed me is how peeved some get if one can't/don't ID them appropriately from first meeting! I've only had my head bitten off once but I've seen others decapitated many times. Sheesh! :|

The part that I haven't gotten used to is that many people look exactly like butch women to me, but they identify as trans or as queer, not as butch women. It surprises me every time. I'm not sure if I'll ever get my head around it.

[cathexis]

Similar terms in my day but the two main ones were butch and soft butch. One would add the adjective soft if you wanted to identify as less masculine/male acting... feeling.. etc... etc... than just butch. Then we had dyke or bull dyke as popular terms used to describe lesbians even more masculine acting/appearance than butch.

Of course, how you saw yourself was not always the same as how others saw you!

Individuals self identify in unique ways.
To one, soft butch may be used for those androgenos or non-binary.
Dyke can be used as a self identification for any lesbian.
In the MW, the term bull dyke is mostly used by straight men as
an insult to a masculine acting/appearing womon (not always lesbian).

[JDeere]

I didn't mean to offend. Im posting on what i see in my everyday world. Ive spoken with alot of butches at the bar and the ones who call themselves hardcore butch do not see themselves as female.

But i guess how one sees themselves wont always be seen by others.

[CherylNYC]

Totally with you on this! :blink: I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the "options"... and the names... that have popped up in the last 20 years!

I certainly don't mind getting with the program ... so to speak... but what has really disturbed me is how peeved some get if one can't/don't ID them appropriately from first meeting! I've only had my head bitten off once but I've seen others decapitated many times. Sheesh! :|

I've had exactly the same experience. People who look exactly like butch women to me will get angry if I don't know that they don't think of themselves that way. And they often say, 'Do I look like a woman to you?', as if their masculinity meant that they couldn't also be women. It seems as if they're insulted to be called women, and it's hard not to hear that as misogyny. My girlfriends are usually at least as masculine as those trans/queer/nonbinary/nongendered people are, and yet they've mostly identified very much as women. Butch women. (NOT 'soft butch', whatever that means) I feel so... OLD whenever that happens.

[BullDog]

Yeah, you go ahead and think of me as "soft" all you want JDeere, but what you said is complete bullshit. I know plenty of "hardcore" butches in real life - who like me - are very proud to be female and butch and completely masculine. It doesn't imply that we are less than hardcore.

If any female-identified butch were to suggest that a male id'd butch was "less than" it would certainly cause a stir.

Maybe instead of posting how you see other butches, you could just talk about how you id instead.

And as far as butch "brains," this sounds like the bullshit where supposedly boys think differently than girls and that's why girls aren't good at math (which is completely untrue).

Anyway, we don't need any "butch scale" at all.

Seriously, this is out of line and should not be tolerated.



I didn't mean to offend. Im posting on what i see in my everyday world. Ive spoken with alot of butches at the bar and the ones who call themselves hardcore butch do not see themselves as female.

But i guess how one sees themselves wont always be seen by others.

[JDeere]

Yeah, you go ahead and think of me as "soft" all you want JDeere, but what you said is complete bullshit. I know plenty of "hardcore" butches in real life - who like me - are very proud to be female and butch and completely masculine. It doesn't imply that we are less than hardcore.

If any female-identified butch were to suggest that a male id'd butch was "less than" it would certainly cause a stir.

Maybe instead of posting how you see other butches, you could just talk about how you id instead.

And as far as butch "brains," this sounds like the bullshit where supposedly boys think differently than girls and that's why girls aren't good at math (which is completely untrue).

Anyway, we don't need any "butch scale" at all.

Seriously, this is out of line and should not be tolerated.

Think what you want. Im telling my.side of life not yours. I put what i see out there and you get all out of sorts. Which is on you not me.

[BullDog]

No, you weren't talking about yourself.

And I will keep my thoughts about you and what kind of butch you think you are to myself.



Think what you want. Im telling my.side of life not yours. I put what i see out there and you get all out of sorts. Which is on you not me.

[JDeere]

No, you weren't talking about yourself.

And I will keep my thoughts about you and what kind of butch you think you are to myself.

Same with myself

[BullDog]

Good because the purpose of the thread isn't to judge others.

Opening post - bold is my emphasis:

I've been in this weird state in between trans male and butch female and was wondering if I could get some insight from those who are butch females.

I've been actively questioning for about 5-6 years now, and I've been always going back and forth between the two. The part of me that thinks I'm a trans male is that I express myself in a more masculine manner (however, butch women also do), I pack and bind, and would prefer to compress my chest and would like the option to go shirtless (though, who doesn't). I like male and neutral pronouns, and I am seen by the majority of people as male.

I'm not out to anyone, so I can't really ask someone to call me by my preferred name/pronouns, but I have been trying this online. I've always chose to present myself as male or masculine online (in games, forums, etc) and I was just wondering if this was common amongst other butch women.

There have also been times as a child where I've had thoughts about how I would go about telling people what happened to [given name] if I were to present as male and go by a male name. I also wondered, when I was 9-10, if other girls hated being girls also.

I don't know, I'm just really confused.



Same with myself

[JDeere]

Good because the purpose of the thread isn't to judge others.

Yup i know.

[BullDog]

To answer your original question Ender, many do id as male/masculine online but definitely not all. In my experience, it is much more common online than in real life, where most of my butch friends do go by she and are totally butch. Some go by he and it could also depend on age and the community you live in.

I consider myself totally masculine and butch. I am proud to be a queer/lesbian masculine female - and that is what butch is for me personally.

Anyway, you've already gotten a lot of good advice, but there are still plenty of butches who have no desire to transition and view themselves as female and don't see the need to use male pronouns. It's all a matter of what feels best for you, and there's no rush and sometimes people evolve over time.

Butches and trans-id'd people identify in all different kinds of ways and no one way is better or less than or "more butch" than any other.

[Esme nha Maire]

Might I interject that the terms that people use of themselves and of each other are neither universal, nor are the meanings attached thereto. Put another way, some people will have in their heads hard and fast definitions for each of the terms that we use within our community - but two such people may not agree on where the boundaries between one and another lay. And I'm told that there are marked differences between how women in the USA and UK regard and use the terms often used within our community here.

We all seek to find where we fit in in the world. Where is the place for me? When one doesn't easily conform to the norms of wider society it can be bad enough, but when one finds oneself adrift even within a smaller sub-section of society that notionally one should fit within somewhere, it can be quite upsetting, as I know from personal experience.

THE big thing to take in, in my opinion, is that your personal experiences and feelings are valid. They are a valid way to be, and what anyone else thinks or whether they think the same way in the same terms with the same definitions as you or not does not matter. Fretting and arguing over such can cause unnecessary friction and pain. It's trite but true that "you be YOU" is probably the best advice there is.

You don't have to be trans OR butch. Those are just labels for aspects of being. You can be one, both, neither, you can think of yourself as one, both, neither and none of that matters so long as you are being YOU just as hard as you can. I've used this phrase before because it's true - words - labels - are descriptive (they describe us), not proscriptive (they do not determine who and what we are).

I caused myself a lot of needless grief over the years because I was trying to pigeonhole myself into a few very limited and limiting boxes defined by a very few words because they were the only words I knew: male/female, straight/gay - and my knowledge of how things are and can be was so very limited. The more I came to understand, and the more I came to regard labels as places on a map that I might be nearby, but perhaps not exactly at, rather than those damned constraining pigeonholes, the happier I became.

I hope this helps.

[Lyte]

My experiences have been very similar... 20 years ago and even today!

With those I've gotten to know better, they do not see themselves as female and for a variety of reasons they can't transition to something other of their choosing. Most of the time the reasons are financial. One guy I met here in Texas who had a medical condition (a blood disorder) that made any surgery hazardous. And there was some other issue that limited his taking testosterone. Anyway, to most he just seemed hella butch (he could not pass as male and he knew it) until you got to know him and his preferred pronouns.



I didn't mean to offend. Im posting on what i see in my everyday world. Ive spoken with alot of butches at the bar and the ones who call themselves hardcore butch do not see themselves as female.

But i guess how one sees themselves wont always be seen by others.

[Lyte]

This is the wisest statement on this thread! :)

Terms ... titles... definitions are going to change over time, across geography and as we and our community changes. It makes little sense to get twisted when someone recounts their own (very personal) experiences.

Even so... that's not what this thread is about... even though it might be tangential to it! ;)




Might I interject that the terms that people use of themselves and of each other are neither universal, nor are the meanings attached thereto.

[BullDog]

Rolls eyes. If anyone were to suggest that male id butches were soft and not hardcore butch there would be a huge uproar. But of course this was exactly what I was expecting to see when I woke up.

[BullDog]

I seriously hope that people don't solely rely on what they read online to figure out who they are. If I had done that I wouldn't be anything like who I actually am.

My own personal experiences and the experiences I have with butches out in the real world are often quite different than what I read online. I have met a lot of nice people online, some who have gone onto to be real-life partners and friends but there's a lot of posturing as well.

Who you are out in the real world and what you feel fits who you are in your skin is what counts, not online personas.

And never listen to anyone who has to put down others to feel good about themselves.

[JDeere]

My experiences have been very similar... 20 years ago and even today!

With those I've gotten to know better, they do not see themselves as female and for a variety of reasons they can't transition to something other of their choosing. Most of the time the reasons are financial. One guy I met here in Texas who had a medical condition (a blood disorder) that made any surgery hazardous. And there was some other issue that limited his taking testosterone. Anyway, to most he just seemed hella butch (he could not pass as male and he knew it) until you got to know him and his preferred pronouns.

I know of several folks in groups I belong to on Facebook that can't transition mostly for financial reasons, which is sad, I think anyone, regardless of financial means should be able to get the help they need.

[cathexis]

Am a genderqueer individual who has had gender dysphoria even after a
total hysterectomy.

Years later (last year), I found that it was possible to masculinize my chest. I am going through clearance for surgery with my Internist and Cardiologist with
appointments this week.

Started testosterone over a year ago.

Have already had a visit with Cardio., now going for a Stress Test which is
scheduled for next week.

Visit with my Internist on Thurs. with labs already done. Unless she orders
further tests, will meet (probably via Skype) to speak with the surgeon for
final discussion and to get scheduled for surgery.

Glad I have Medicare, as 80% of cost will be covered. Sorry for the guys
Lyte was writing about being unable to have the surgery due to cost.
Perhaps they could inquire about medical tourism to Cuba. Great medical care
and complete acceptance of transgender individuals. The cost will probably be
less than the US even considering the arrangement and transportation.

[JDeere]

In a group I am in on Facebook, someone came forward with the same question you have Ender. I didn't post because some of the folks in said group are lets say " no label, only one gender" type folks. I think in time you will be who you are, no matter what others say, it took me many years to even know I was masculine of any kind, that butch femme trans, etc existed.

I am hoping you are coming into yourself.

[Ender]

I came out to a few of my friends as trans, and they were all super supportive and accepting, however, now I'm starting to question again.

The thing I am sure of is that I am transmasculine (whether I'm butch, trans, somewhere in the middle) I'm unsure of.

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

I'm glad I said something, but I don't know if it's just all in my head or not.

[Lyte]

I've always liked the name Liam! :koolaid:

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

[DapperButch]

I came out to a few of my friends as trans, and they were all super supportive and accepting, however, now I'm starting to question again.

The thing I am sure of is that I am transmasculine (whether I'm butch, trans, somewhere in the middle) I'm unsure of.

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

I'm glad I said something, but I don't know if it's just all in my head or not.

Hi, Liam. :)

Have you looked into finding a clinically competent gender therapist? If you need some assistance in finding someone in your area, I would be happy to help you.

You really need someone to bounce this stuff off of who understands the nuances of gender, gender expression, and sexuality. You need someone to assist you in pulling all of this apart.

You also might find it helpful to journal.

Also, it isn't a race...it is a journey. :)

[Ender]

Hi, Liam. :)

Have you looked into finding a clinically competent gender therapist? If you need some assistance in finding someone in your area, I would be happy to help you.

You really need someone to bounce this stuff off of who understands the nuances of gender, gender expression, and sexuality. You need someone to assist you in pulling all of this apart.

You also might find it helpful to journal.

Also, it isn't a race...it is a journey. :)

I used to go, but she was very adamant on getting me on T when I was still questioning things and I stopped going.
I’m looking into online therapists at the moment, since I’m a couple hour drive from the city.