2020 Presidential Election

[kittygrrl]

@ this moment i like Castro/Harris..but @ this point, i'd vote for the boogey man rather then another 4 years of trump:glasses:

[C0LLETTE]

I'm hoping a candidate will be picked who can :
" #MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain " (courtesy of John Oliver )

[Martina]

Asked what's the first and possibly only thing they'd do, Kamala says middle class tax cuts, and Bernie says take on the special interests. That tells you EVERYTHING. Kamala, while I like her, is another corporate liberal. Bernie is a true progressive. He never loses sight of what's important. That moment said EVERYTHING. There really is no one else to vote for. Bernie is by far the only one who has not bought in to corporate rule of our country.

Bernie's closing was the same. About what is fundamentally wrong and what change means.

Kamala did well, obviously. She was great on race. She kicked Biden's ass. She did a good job.

Mayor Pete was great, but if it's true that many African American voters won't vote for him, we can't afford his candidacy. He's young. He can wait a minute. I think he's amazing though.

Another good debate, I thought. I was never a big fan of Gillibrand, but she got my attention re standing up to Mitch McConnell.

I thought it was not a great night for Biden although he fought hard. His policies seemed -- and are -- behind the times. He looked old. Sort of strange really. Too much makeup?

Marianne Williamson is a trip, but I thought she made a great point about chemicals causing health problems.

I thought Rep. Swalwell did really well, especially on guns although Mayor Pete handled his defense well. A good showing.

But Bernie showed why he is the one to beat Trump and offer us a future, IMO.

[charley]

Asked what's the first and possibly only thing they'd do, Kamala says middle class tax cuts, and Bernie says take on the special interests. That tells you EVERYTHING. Kamala, while I like her, is another corporate liberal. Bernie is a true progressive. He never loses sight of what's important. That moment said EVERYTHING. There really is no one else to vote for. Bernie is by far the only one who has not bought in to corporate rule of our country.

Bernie's closing was the same. About what is fundamentally wrong and what change means.

Kamala did well, obviously. She was great on race. She kicked Biden's ass. She did a good job.

Mayor Pete was great, but if it's true that many African American voters won't vote for him, we can't afford his candidacy. He's young. He can wait a minute. I think he's amazing though.

Another good debate, I thought. I was never a big fan of Gillibrand, but she got my attention re standing up to Mitch McConnell.

I thought it was not a great night for Biden although he fought hard. His policies seemed -- and are -- behind the times. He looked old. Sort of strange really. Too much makeup?

Marianne Williamson is a trip, but I thought she made a great point about chemicals causing health problems.

I thought Rep. Swalwell did really well, especially on guns although Mayor Pete handled his defense well. A good showing.

But Bernie showed why he is the one to beat Trump and offer us a future, IMO.

Yes, indeed, I did like Kamala and Bernie. But, I think Kamala was the only one who really showed that she could take on the Republicans. She won the night.

My take on Bernie is that he seemed out of place in the midst of all the other candidates, and I think it is because of all things, his platform indicates that while some refer to him as a socialist, a progressive, the main thing is that he is not a capitalist (just like me - chuckles). And all the other Dem candidates are capitalists, just like the Republicans, only the difference between the two parties is a question of degree. Of course, the Republicans are so far out in right field that they seem to have forfeited any sense of humanity. Bernie would have no chance of winning an election if he had been elected to run against Trump, because of his stance and because most Americans believe in capitalism - the American dream. So, yes, I agree with you, Martina, when you said that Bernie "is by far the only one who has not bought into corporate rule of our country." However, I don't think the Dem electoral peeps are prepared to accept Bernie's position. It would be a fantasy to imagine that most Americans would accept a pov that seems to attack capitalism in any form.

I liked Biden less and less...

I do not trust Pete, even though his ideas are engaging. But, as Mayor, he could easily fire his Chief of Police and fight for and force the adoption of a more sensitive agenda regarding race relations in his home town, but that particular position might place his own mayorship in jeopardy. It just seemed that he holds his position as a politician in his own home town because he knows how to play the political game, just like Biden - which means nothing to me personally.

I am just beginning to be curious to see who wins this Dem nomination.

As an aside, there is one thing I don't understand, and that is why Pelosi doesn't run herself.

[~ocean]

Harris would make a good candidate for a post on in the US cabinet ~ she doesn't have enough class to represent our country. We have a classless leader now why repeat that with Harris ~ a lot of the candidates showed potential placement's for the future US cabinet , IMO only 2 have shown a presidential potential ~

[kittygrrl]

Harris would make a good candidate for a post on in the US cabinet ~ she doesn't have enough class to represent our country...

I have a tendency to agree...i abhor greed & grabs for power and i see Harris as too greedy for the presidency and apparently capable of enviserating anyone who gets in her way -her takedown of Biden was unnecessary, chiding him for something he did over 40 years ago...hello, we are in 2019..wasn't fair or civil nor relevant ... ...as i predicted this 2nd lot was deeply disappointing...they behaved like a pack of wolves circling prey-I will never vote for Harris.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Yes, indeed, I did like Kamala and Bernie. But, I think Kamala was the only one who really showed that she could take on the Republicans. She won the night.

My take on Bernie is that he seemed out of place in the midst of all the other candidates, and I think it is because of all things, his platform indicates that while some refer to him as a socialist, a progressive, the main thing is that he is not a capitalist (just like me - chuckles). And all the other Dem candidates are capitalists, just like the Republicans, only the difference between the two parties is a question of degree. Of course, the Republicans are so far out in right field that they seem to have forfeited any sense of humanity. Bernie would have no chance of winning an election if he had been elected to run against Trump, because of his stance and because most Americans believe in capitalism - the American dream. So, yes, I agree with you, Martina, when you said that Bernie "is by far the only one who has not bought into corporate rule of our country." However, I don't think the Dem electoral peeps are prepared to accept Bernie's position. It would be a fantasy to imagine that most Americans would accept a pov that seems to attack capitalism in any form.

I liked Biden less and less...

I do not trust Pete, even though his ideas are engaging. But, as Mayor, he could easily fire his Chief of Police and fight for and force the adoption of a more sensitive agenda regarding race relations in his home town, but that particular position might place his own mayorship in jeopardy. It just seemed that he holds his position as a politician in his own home town because he knows how to play the political game, just like Biden - which means nothing to me personally.

I am just beginning to be curious to see who wins this Dem nomination.

As an aside, there is one thing I don't understand, and that is why Pelosi doesn't run herself.

My guess would be that Pelosi does not run because of the structure of our government. We have (supposedly) 3 coequal branches of government; Executive, Legislative, and Judicial...Pelosi/McConnel hold nearly the same amount of power as the President, but in different ways...as does the US Supreme Court.

Have you ever heard of the Peter principle? It means taking a top performer from one job, and putting them into another job where they fail badly. Ie...Just because someone is a great singer, it doesn’t mean they have the ability to be a ballerina.

[MsTinkerbelly]

I have a tendency to agree...i abhor greed & grabs for power and i see Harris as too greedy for the presidency and apparently capable of enviserating anyone who gets in her way -her takedown of Biden was unnecessary, chiding him for something he did over 40 years ago...hello, we are in 2019..wasn't fair or civil nor relevant ... ...as i predicted this 2nd lot was deeply disappointing...they behaved like a pack of wolves circling prey-I will never vote for Harris.

If Biden didn’t keep digging his hole deeper, then I would agree with you...his mistakes were in the past. But...he keeps trying to justify what he did without giving thought to the damage he continues to cause.

Harris is a bit rough around the edges, but I want someone strong and take charge! Are we objecting to her because she is kick ass instead of “ladylike”? Well FUCK ladylike, we need an ass kicker to beat Trump!

[kittygrrl]

If Biden didn’t keep digging his hole deeper, then I would agree with you...his mistakes were in the past. But...he keeps trying to justify what he did without giving thought to the damage he continues to cause.

Harris is a bit rough around the edges, but I want someone strong and take charge! Are we objecting to her because she is kick ass instead of “ladylike”? Well FUCK ladylike, we need an ass kicker to beat Trump!

well spoken Tinkerberry..but i must disagree..there is a time for everything but the calculated enviseration was needless, this was merely exercise to her..i detest using another's weakness to show power..like a snake ready to strike..is that beautiful? no, it should fill every democrat's heart with horror that we are no better then the Republicans and capable of every outrage and more...there is a time and place for revenge-against enemies, not friends..she is foolish and not nearly as clever as she needs to be..incompetent.

imo

[MsTinkerbelly]

well spoken Tinkerberry..but i must disagree..there is a time for everything but the calculated enviseration was needless, this was merely exercise to her..i detest using another's weakness to show power..like a snake ready to strike..is that beautiful? no, it should fill every democrat's heart with horror that we are no better then the Republicans and capable of every outrage and more...there is a time and place for revenge-against enemies, not friends..she is foolish and not nearly as clever as she needs to be..incompetent.

imo

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one I think. I’m tired of Democrat politicians being nice and turning the other cheek only to have that cheek slapped as well. We are the party of the namby, pamby, weak talking, losing to assholes like Trump party, and someone needs to pull up their big girl/boy panties and fight for US!!

[C0LLETTE]

Might be useful to remember that you're trying to defeat a Fascist president not adopt a cute puppy.

[kittygrrl]

Might be useful to remember that you're trying to defeat a Fascist president not adopt a cute puppy.



In the long run if Biden is not capable of dealing w Trump it will become obvious..It was disheartening to watch adults last night attacking at each other, interrupting and for some to think that a victory. We never learn. Noted, Mayor Pete & Biden were the only ones who did not join in the free for all ...We need someone who can think strategically..which apparently is a stretch for most of these candidates and democrats in general. However, i am hopeful that one decent human being shall become known and prevail..will she/he be perfect? No...but hopefully it will not be Harris or anyone like her...I'm not interested in someone who can trump, Trump. Hell, just about anyone with half a brain can do that.

We need the next President to be a person of vision, intelligence, & wisdom who can lead us into the future..anything less then that will only make things worse.

[MsTinkerbelly]

In the long run if Biden is not capable of dealing w Trump it will become obvious..It was disheartening to watch adults last night attacking at each other, interrupting and for some to think that a victory. We never learn. Noted, Mayor Pete & Biden were the only ones who did not join in the free for all ...We need someone who can think strategically..which apparently is a stretch for most of these candidates and democrats in general. However, i am hopeful that one decent human being shall become known and prevail..will she/he be perfect? No...but hopefully it will not be Harris or anyone like her...I'm not interested in someone who can trump, Trump. Hell, just about anyone with half a brain can do that.

We need the next President to be a person of vision, intelligence, & wisdom who can lead us into the future..anything less then that will only make things worse.

Not trying to dump on you kitty, but remember where nice and Hilary got us last time..... The time for civility may have ended with Trump, because I now see every Republican after his term, pulling the same crap.

Maybe someday Democrats can be all warm and fuzzy again, but now? Now we need a strong determined leader to fight the fight and get this country back on track. Good ol’ Joe or milktoast Mayor Pete are not going to get us there.

[Orema]

I think Harris came out on top and if I had to vote today it would be for her, but I don’t think any of them will be able to beat Trump. At least not based on what I saw in the two debates.

They’ll need to be more ruthless, cunning, and convincing. Harris was these things with Biden, but Trump is a different cookie and I wonder how she would (will?) handle him as an opponent.

I’m not optimistic after watching the debates but i haven’t given up hope, either.

[kittygrrl]

I don't believe being more ruthless will get us to a better place . This is only an opinion.

[kittygrrl]

Not trying to dump on you kitty, but remember where nice and Hilary got us last time.....

I honestly don't mind Tinkerbelly:praying:

[MsTinkerbelly]

I honestly don't mind Tinkerbelly:praying:

I always find having a discussion with you to be refreshing. ;)

[~ocean]

thankfully we live in a freedom of speech country, with very tender subject like politics , we can SHARE our views ! always remember to nod that we are free thinkers and someone's views can open our eyes to another way to look at a subject ~ bashing is as classless as being ignorant to other country's politics. The up coming year is going to be intense . ** smiling ** and ^ 5's all my sister's. be kind ~

[Martina]

Spoil sport! ;)thankfully we live in a freedom of speech country, with very tender subject like politics , we can SHARE our views ! always remember to nod that we are free thinkers and someone's views can open our eyes to another way to look at a subject ~ bashing is as classless as being ignorant to other country's politics. The up coming year is going to be intense . ** smiling ** and ^ 5's all my sister's. be kind ~

[dark_crystal]

Since the debates i feel i could do a 180 from my position last year and declare that we do need to split the party into liberals vs. progressives.

Today I really felt like the progressives should not have been at these debates. I do not feel like progressives are dragging centrists to the left, and i do feel like sharing the stage with centrists is forcing progressives to leave a lot unsaid.

They just should not be competing for the same base of voters, and i feel like the real differences between the two wings are obscured when they try to share any platform.

Put Gabbard, Yang, Williamson, and Bernie (etc?) on one stage and the rest of them(?) on another stage and let the winners debate each other.

Centrists gonna centrist. Let the centrists debate themselves and let the progressives debate themselves. Let the real values of each wing crystallize around their very best person and let them confront each other directly.

Let people compare apples to oranges instead of having ideologically polarized candidates try to pretend they're all apples.

Right now the two wings are trying to put on different sleeves of the same jacket. Voters need to see two separate jackets.

I have been listening to the audiobook of The Chapo Guide to Revolution and i just feel like progressives hate the democratic party too much to continue trying to do a makeover on it in good faith.

Progressives should be their own party. And 2020 might be a perfect storm year for that.

Trump IS very weak. Bernie is very strong. Progressives may not get anyone as strong as Bernie for decades-- someone that could peel off enough support from centrism-- given the opportunity to run directly against it-- to outnumber what remains of Trump's base. There may be no other candidate for awhile who has enough grassroots support to be able to viably turn their back on a major party.

[homoe]

thankfully we live in a freedom of speech country, with very tender subject like politics , we can SHARE our views ! always remember to nod that we are free thinkers and someone's views can open our eyes to another way to look at a subject ~ bashing is as classless as being ignorant to other country's politics. The up coming year is going to be intense . ** smiling ** and ^ 5's all my sister's. be kind ~


.......:goodpost:......

[kittygrrl]

just to have a little perspective on why i don't like Harris at all...she and Biden are friends..she asked him to campaign for her when she ran for the Senate..what a hellacious way to pay him back..no wonder he looked shocked and then very sad..what a Benedict Arnold she is w no moral compass..she is worse then a boogey man because she likes to pretend she is righteous & so above it all instead of being transparent and admit to being the low-life bottom feeder, she is

[C0LLETTE]

Sometimes I think that politics is like an onion. Some people sit at the centre with very strong views, cut away, and angrily try to draw everyone in. Tears come fast and strong.
Others are on the outside peel ring and see it is the biggest and the easiest to peel off, peel by peel. Tears still come but you can step away, take a breath and think how deep you want to go.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Well, Biden stuck his foot in his mouth again at a fundraiser hosted by a prominent member of Seattle’s LBBTQIA community.

While giving his speech he gave an example of “how far the LGBT community has come” by saying that just 5 years ago people in Seattle would still be able to laugh at a gay waiter. :blink:

Who writes his stuff? Seattle has always been full of us, and no one would have put up with homophobic crap 5 years ago! I know he means well, but at some point this “open mouth insert foot” spiel of his needs to stop before he offends every group he needs to vote for him!

[charley]

Spoil sport! ;)

CENSORED..... CENSORED..... (rflmao)

[cathexis]

Harris would make a good candidate for a post on in the US cabinet ~ she doesn't have enough class to represent our country. We have a classless leader now why repeat that with Harris ~ a lot of the candidates showed potential placement's for the future US cabinet , IMO only 2 have shown a presidential potential ~

Agree that she's inappropriately suited for President, but don't see lack of class as the reason. She is not stateswomenly.

[C0LLETTE]

Agree that she's inappropriately suited for President, but don't see lack of class as the reason. She is not stateswomenly.

Help me out here: what does "stateswomanly" mean and why isn't Harris enough of what it does mean?

As for "class" in politics, that probably went out when Henry Cabot Lodge died, whenever that was. Three names are always very "classy".

[Allison W]

Noone in this lineup has me all that impressed. Warren has some pretty progressive ideas, but to distinguish between her and Sanders will be difficult.
Also, I don't know about hearing her grating voice for 4+years. It really is kind of whiny.

Bernie is further to the left economically. They're both pretty left-wing by current Democratic standards, but Bernie is more open about moving towards democratic socialism as a long-term goal, which is why I'm still drinking out of a Bernie coffee mug at this very moment and have been for the past four years.

Currently my fantasy is a Sanders/Warren, or Warren/Sanders, ticket because I really like where they are pushing us and because I like how they plan to accomplish getting us there.

I honestly wouldn't want to put the two of them on the same ticket. My primary reasoning for that is that I'd much sooner have one of them in the Oval Office and the other as their ally in the Senate; making one of them the VP would be a bit of a waste, IMO. The only situation in which I'd want to see both of them on the same ticket is if it turns out that they can't both get their supporters on the same page about getting behind whichever one of them ends up being the left-wing primary candidate: they unfortunately have very different demographics of support and it's not clear that either one's voters would get behind the other. It's fucking incomprehensible but apparently a lot of Bernie supporters have Biden of all fucking people as their second choice and apparently a lot of Warren supporters have Harris as their second choice. (If it's not clear, Warren is my second choice, and I will get behind whichever of Bernie or Warren shapes up to be the one in the best position to beat the bourgeoisie-approved candidate.)

Yes, indeed, I did like Kamala and Bernie. But, I think Kamala was the only one who really showed that she could take on the Republicans. She won the night.

My take on Bernie is that he seemed out of place in the midst of all the other candidates, and I think it is because of all things, his platform indicates that while some refer to him as a socialist, a progressive, the main thing is that he is not a capitalist (just like me - chuckles). And all the other Dem candidates are capitalists, just like the Republicans, only the difference between the two parties is a question of degree. Of course, the Republicans are so far out in right field that they seem to have forfeited any sense of humanity. Bernie would have no chance of winning an election if he had been elected to run against Trump, because of his stance and because most Americans believe in capitalism - the American dream. So, yes, I agree with you, Martina, when you said that Bernie "is by far the only one who has not bought into corporate rule of our country." However, I don't think the Dem electoral peeps are prepared to accept Bernie's position. It would be a fantasy to imagine that most Americans would accept a pov that seems to attack capitalism in any form.

Most Americans don't actually have any ideological commitments; they generally have a political tribe at most. If you actually poll members of the general public to ask about specific policy ideas rather than overarching political labels, left-wing policies are frequently extremely popular and right-wing policies are frequently extremely unpopular (to the point that it's not unusual for a voter confronted with information on what right-wing candidates actually support to have difficulty believing what they're seeing). For instance, the single most socialist thing Bernie has proposed so far is his plan to require companies to pay their employees not simply wages but ownership, which is both far more socialist than anything else in American politics at the moment and, believe it or not, actually a very popular idea.

Also, we are actively in a moment of obvious crisis where everyone who isn't in a bubble knows, if only in the sense that they don't like to think about it, that the world is kind of actively ending while we sit around feeling helpless to do anything about it. What I'm saying is, now is the exact time to offer an alternative to the status quo, because the political landscape right now is not simply about the traditional left-right distinction but also about a significant chunk of the electorate wanting any alternative to the sinking ship we're on. If we run a status quo candidate, it continues to look like only Trump and the fascists he represents are even admitting that there's a crisis. The situation is ripe to shatter the veil of misinformation surrounding what capitalism and socialism even are, and to start advancing the notion that opposing the exploiter class is not only possible but also legitimate. Which is to say, we get to start mainstreaming the idea that the material interests of the small minority of employers, landlords, and other exploiters are inherently anathema to the interests of the vast majority of people whose income comes from their labor, and that it is these material interests that determine who shares your survival interests and thus whom it is possible to peacefully coexist with, rather than membership in a racial, ethnic, or national tribe.

Might be useful to remember that you're trying to defeat a Fascist president not adopt a cute puppy.

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here--whether you're suggesting that a candidate should be chosen on the basis of being a "centrist" and thus able to appeal to "swing voters" or simply that we should watch our infighting--but I will use this opportunity to make something clear.

Donald Trump is not even the disease. He is a symptom. Biden, for instance, is building his campaign around the message that the only problem is Donald Trump and that once we're rid of him everything will be hunky-dory again. The problem is that the "normal" we would go back to was the exact disease that led to Trump in the first place: Trump did not create our current political environment; he was created by it. Biden could defeat Trump in 2020 because Trump is simply that much of a god damn embarrassment, but he has already committed himself to letting the disease (capitalism and its death throes) fester, and the exact crises that led to Trump's election will simply continue to progress until the next election comes along and the public is even more desperate for any escape from the status quo Biden represents.

Progressives should be their own party. And 2020 might be a perfect storm year for that.

Trump IS very weak. Bernie is very strong. Progressives may not get anyone as strong as Bernie for decades-- someone that could peel off enough support from centrism-- given the opportunity to run directly against it-- to outnumber what remains of Trump's base. There may be no other candidate for awhile who has enough grassroots support to be able to viably turn their back on a major party.

NEIN, NYET, NIX, NADA, NO

The two-party system isn't simply a political reality, it is a mathematical reality. The Spoiler Effect is so insurmountable that it would be more feasible to mount a hostile takeover of one of the two existing Actual Parties than it would be for a third party to win a presidential general election. Thankfully, it's looking like Bernie has a perfectly realistic shot at the nomination. His performance in 2016 wasn't half-bad considering he was up against one of the most powerful people in the Democratic Party at the time and the party machine was bending over backwards to coronate Clinton, and he's dealing with far less formidable competition this time around.

Agree that she's inappropriately suited for President, but don't see lack of class as the reason. She is not stateswomenly.

My primary concern with Harris is that she is a cop. (Well, that, and the capitalism, but I digress.)

also shout out to Katzchen, good to see you again too

[cathexis]

:wine:thankfully we live in a freedom of speech country, with very tender subject like politics , we can SHARE our views ! always remember to nod that we are free thinkers and someone's views can open our eyes to another way to look at a subject ~ bashing is as classless as being ignorant to other country's politics. The up coming year is going to be intense . ** smiling ** and ^ 5's all my sister's. be kind ~

Help me out here: what does "stateswomanly" mean and why isn't Harris enough of what it does mean?

As for "class" in politics, that probably went out when Henry Cabot Lodge died, whenever that was. Three names are always very "classy".

What was meant in my term, "not stateswomanly" refers to her apparent inability to maintain a calm, reserved, self assured demeanor. She seems to always be on the verge of flying off the handle.

This type of personality will probably not work well in International Relations. A candidate with that is "statespersonly" will be better to patch up what Trump has done to our relations, especially with Canada, Germany, and Great Britain. The candidates that fit that bill include Biden and Sanders also some way down on the polls like Bennet.
It is not an easy quality to put into words; however, "class" doesn't work either.
Class infers "bourgeoisie."

We also need to find one candidate that most Democrats and some people on the fence or passed off Republicans will vote for.

We don't need to follow the example of the Far Left and have a multi-candidate splinter resulting in a win for the other side.

[Allison W]

We also need to find one candidate that most Democrats and some people on the fence or passed off Republicans will vote for.

We don't need to follow the example of the Far Left and have a multi-candidate splinter resulting in a win for the other side.

I'd argue that "far left" is the only way out of this mess, but I'd also argue that what is needed is for one of our two most left-wing primary candidates to take the Democratic nomination and actually square off with Trump as one of the two Actual Candidates as opposed to trying to come in as a third-party spoiler.

As far as getting someone that "most Democrats" and "some people on the fence" or "pissed off Republicans" will vote for, I would argue that a move to the center can't do this effectively, because the center doesn't actually offer any reason to vote for it. It doesn't have a narrative or meaningful answers, and is associated with the maintenance of a toxic status quo. It can't convert people who weren't already onboard, and it also can't win over the massive chunk of people who are so disillusioned with the status quo that they won't go to the polls at all if the status quo and Trump are their only options. Moving left and offering an actual left-wing narrative and answer for our crises is the only thing with the power to do that. We live in times where, again, the traditional left-right distinction is ripe to be supplanted by a status quo-vs-populist distinction instead. The fash are already pushing right-populism aggressively, and the only thing that can actually defeat it long-term is left-populism.

[Apocalipstic]

I need to read this entire thread...but till I do, a couple of thoughts.

1. A shit house rat would be better than the Cheeto.

2. My current favorite is Elizabeth Warren

3. All of the Democratic Presidents I remember were centrist. I dream of a Socialist Utopia, or at least the programs that LBJ put in place, healthcare and education for everyone and no children in cages.

4. I will vote for whomever the Dems run for President

5. I think Kamala Harris is very elegant and poised...don't see the classless/unstatespersonish angle

6. What the hell is it going to take to get Trump out of there, though, I am not sure Pence would be any better

7. I have heard whisperings that Trump is going to drop Pence for 2020 and run ....Ivanka as VP...:canoworms:

[cathexis]

I'd argue that "far left" is the only way out of this mess, but I'd also argue that what is needed is for one of our two most left-wing primary candidates to take the Democratic nomination and actually square off with Trump as one of the two Actual Candidates as opposed to trying to come in as a third-party spoiler.

As far as getting someone that "most Democrats" and "some people on the fence" or "pissed off Republicans" will vote for, I would argue that a move to the center can't do this effectively, because the center doesn't actually offer any reason to vote for it. It doesn't have a narrative or meaningful answers, and is associated with the maintenance of a toxic status quo. It can't convert people who weren't already onboard, and it also can't win over the massive chunk of people who are so disillusioned with the status quo that they won't go to the polls at all if the status quo and Trump are their only options. Moving left and offering an actual left-wing narrative and answer for our crises is the only thing with the power to do that. We live in times where, again, the traditional left-right distinction is ripe to be supplanted by a status quo-vs-populist distinction instead. The fash are already pushing right-populism aggressively, and the only thing that can actually defeat it long-term is left-populism.

Perhaps, you misunderstand what I mean by Far Left. In my understanding, the Far Left are the parties that include the Trotskyists and Left Anarchists not what is being referred to in popular political rhetoric today. If you are indeed speaking the same parties as I am, then we need to have a real conversation.

The U.S. is not, in any way, in shape to have a revolution. The true left does not have the support needed. Now, if you're talking Sanders and Democratic Socialism, maybe the country can entertain the idea. Only maybe, but Bernie doesn't have the backing, polls reveal that centrists would be more likely to be successful.

I feel that we need to, above all, defeat Trump else this current Fascist course continue. However, there are leftists who believe that the more right-wing a climate, the more likely a revolution will succeed. Personally, I prefer not to tempt fate.

[cathexis]

I need to read this entire thread...but till I do, a couple of thoughts.

1. A shit house rat would be better than the Cheeto.

2. My current favorite is Elizabeth Warren

3. All of the Democratic Presidents I remember were centrist. I dream of a Socialist Utopia, or at least the programs that LBJ put in place, healthcare and education for everyone and no children in cages.

4. I will vote for whomever the Dems run for President

5. I think Kamala Harris is very elegant and poised...don't see the classless/unstatespersonish angle

6. What the hell is it going to take to get Trump out of there, though, I am not sure Pence would be any better

7. I have heard whisperings that Trump is going to drop Pence for 2020 and run ....Ivanka as VP...:canoworms:

Pence is as much of a right-wing zealot as Trump, maybe worse. Ivanka for VP, unbelievable?! Though, not much can shock me now. Maybe the secret meetings Trump had with Putin were about how to turn a regime into a Plutocracy or Aristocracy. Just kidding roflol.

Socialist utopia? Socialism is no utopia, no government is. They all need much work to succeed, yes?

[Apocalipstic]

Pence is as much of a right-wing zealot as Trump, maybe worse. Ivanka for VP, unbelievable?! Though, not much can shock me now. Maybe the secret meetings Trump had with Putin were about how to turn a regime into a Plutocracy or Aristocracy. Just kidding roflol.

Socialist utopia? Socialism is no utopia, no government is. They all need much work to succeed, yes?

I agree about Pence, he creeps me out. Who knows what the hell goes on in the secret meetings. I have long suspected they want to be Bond villains and are planning their secret island...but I think we can agree Trump wants to be King.

Utopia is a dream...not possible I agree. Yes, government is a lot of work. It seems that Capitalism, pure Socialism and even Capitalism look good on paper, but you put people in the mix and they are a disaster. A mixture might work, but that puts us back with the Centrists. As a kid I wanted to Communist until I realized they served the same food at every restaurant...on the other hand, I want everyone to have food and shelter and healthcare and education. The US is so huge and diverse it presents problems that smaller populations don't.

[homoe]

..
Unless Trump switches horses in midstream and picks Ivanka for VP, I think she can kiss any aspirations for public office goodbye at this point!

[Apocalipstic]

..
Unless Trump switches horses in midstream and picks Ivanka for VP, I think she can kiss any aspirations for public office goodbye at this point!

OMG, I hope so! She has always creeped me out, but her Lotita on the Prarie thing at the G-whatever, flirting with her dad made me sick.

[homoe]

tf20wypum5o




Is she even smart enough to know she's being snubbed I wonder?

[C0LLETTE]

How the Hell did a greasy fat-fingured ignorant buffoon come to a position where he can murder tens of millions of people with the wave of his hand.
Americans, as a whole, are responsible for this mess.

Fix this please and stop complaining about "others" opining on the damage that the Government and its policies are inflicting. You're a "world power" and the damage and the incredibly ignorant polices affect us all. This is not just an "American" planet.

[Martina]

And now Trump has got a buddy in the UK. Twice as smart, but just as crazy. At least the Brits get to listen to articulate insanity.

[C0LLETTE]

make that " fat-fingered "

[Apocalipstic]

How the Hell did a greasy fat-fingured ignorant buffoon come to a position where he can murder tens of millions of people with the wave of his hand.
Americans, as a whole, are responsible for this mess.

Fix this please and stop complaining about "others" opining on the damage that the Government and its policies are inflicting. You're a "world power" and the damage and the incredibly ignorant polices affect us all. This is not just an "American" planet.

Well, Collette, I don't think Trump did win. I think the elections were compromised. I think its easy to point fingers at us, we have very different issues than Canada (huge diverse population)....and Russia, etc is not trying to topple Canada. I daily do everything I can to help immigrants and to fight to try to make sure we have a different outcome in the next election. I do not think this is an American planet.

Its early, I am on cup of coffee number one, but I must say, your post infuriates me. I did not vote for him, I work for an immigration law firm, I volunteer translating for marches, I have thrown up in the middle of the street and fainted trying to stop for profit prisons. We are not all just sitting here whining about our situation.

Stop blaming and step off.

[MsTinkerbelly]

How the Hell did a greasy fat-fingured ignorant buffoon come to a position where he can murder tens of millions of people with the wave of his hand.
Americans, as a whole, are responsible for this mess.

Fix this please and stop complaining about "others" opining on the damage that the Government and its policies are inflicting. You're a "world power" and the damage and the incredibly ignorant polices affect us all. This is not just an "American" planet.

Wow.

We (USA) are living this every single day. Living with this POS ruining our country, destroying our reputation in the world, putting fucking CHILDREN in cages, threatening to start WWIII, kissing up to dictators....on and on and on.

I have (as most of us do) some form of PTSD from several years of watching this play out. We know, should the POS be impeached, we may be in even WORSE trouble with Pence; you see, POS has no soul, but Pence? Pence wants to kill us!

What is your solution? I mean you seem to have thought about this a lot...what is your solution? Stage a coup? Take to the streets? With one of the worlds strongest armies, do you see that accomplishing anything at all? Well??

We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!

So much for civil conversation!

I’m sorry Medusa, i’ll Step out of this thread.

[~ocean]

Wow.

We (USA) are living this every single day. Living with this POS ruining our country, destroying our reputation in the world, putting fucking CHILDREN in cages, threatening to start WWIII, kissing up to dictators....on and on and on.

I have (as most of us do) some form of PTSD from several years of watching this play out. We know, should the POS be impeached, we may be in even WORSE trouble with Pence; you see, POS has no soul, but Pence? Pence wants to kill us!

What is your solution? I mean you seem to have thought about this a lot...what is your solution? Stage a coup? Take to the streets? With one of the worlds strongest armies, do you see that accomplishing anything at all? Well??

We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!

So much for civil conversation!

I’m sorry Medusa, i’ll Step out of this thread.




Please don't step aside ~ other peoples ignorance is their issue ~ I respect your patriotism tinker :) as a PROUD American we need to stand strong together and not to turn away because of a ignorant comment We have pride , integrity , unity. Hence the FREEDOM we share as Americans. I enjoy your posts. ** here have some tea and enjoy the day ** :tea:

[Apocalipstic]

Yes Ms. Tinker! Please stay!

[C0LLETTE]

"We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!" Ms Tinkerbelly

Alright, so who is going to step up when even the mildest criticism brings this kind of thin- skinned and angry response and others making references to "Patriotism". Agreeing with policies is not "patriotism". Disagreeing with those who question policies is not "patriotism". Chauvinism is not patriotism.

Ok, Roll back the tanks.

Just because someone says an onion stinks doesn't mean they need grow a sweeter onion. Just means it may be time to stop denying that that onion stinks or claiming that only you have he right to say so; or that you're going to keep defending that stinking onion from any "foreigner" who says it stinks.

We all share his planet. I'm not sure why having more military "might" and economic "clout" morally entitles Americans to make life and death decisions for all of us without having to explain, rationalize and even apologize for decisions taken.

You can make all the earth-shattering moves your might permits but don't think i will sit quietly, idly by. This is our planet, too. You did this; you fix it. I promise to applaud and be grateful.

[C0LLETTE]

Ms Tinkerbelly, surely you aren't going to leave the thread!!!! This is exactly the sort of dialogue/debate we SHOULD be having. Free flowing discourse is the life-blood of ideas and, even, eventual solutions...how else will we ever get there?

[Apocalipstic]

"We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!" Ms Tinkerbelly

Alright, so who is going to step up when even the mildest criticism brings this kind of thin- skinned and angry response and others making references to "Patriotism". Agreeing with policies is not "patriotism". Disagreeing with those who question policies is not "patriotism". Chauvinism is not patriotism.

Ok, Roll back the tanks.

Just because someone says an onion stinks doesn't mean they need grow a sweeter onion. Just means it may be time to stop denying that that onion stinks or claiming that only you have he right to say so; or that you're going to keep defending that stinking onion from any "foreigner" who says it stinks.

We all share his planet. I'm not sure why having more military "might" and economic "clout" morally entitles Americans to make life and death decisions for all of us without having to explain, rationalize and even apologize for decisions taken.

You can make all the earth-shattering moves your might permits but don't think i will sit quietly, idly by. This is our planet, too. You did this; you fix it. I promise to applaud and be grateful.

So you personally have control over everything the government of Canada does?

Cut us some slack, we are in Hell.

I don't think the US should tell anyone else how to live or what to do. I don't believe in a large military. I hate it in fact. WE (the US) have zero moral high road and honestly never have had. Though, I agree many US citizens think we do or should. :fastdraq:

I dislike the term American used for citizen of the United States. The Continent is America. Its awkward to say Statesian or USean....In Spanish the term is "estadounidense". Growing up in Argentina, I was taught that we are all Americans. And we are. North Americans, South Americans, Central Americans.

[~ocean]

Ms Tinkerbelly, surely you aren't going to leave the thread!!!! This is exactly the sort of dialogue/debate we SHOULD be having. Free flowing discourse is the life-blood of ideas and, even, eventual solutions...how else will we ever get there?

Discuss, share views, debate, all ways of communication. Insulting, negativity, ignorance, are not forms of dialogue of an intelligent conversation, or informative . Your post made me see how blindsided you are . Please be nice, we are all living in the same world. Loud abrasive behavior is never heard.

[C0LLETTE]

I'd like to say this as politely as I can: Canadian or not Canadian, my views likely represent the views of the vast majority of world population outside of the USA and a fair percentage of those within.

Individually you each know who you are and where you stand; there is no reason for you to take my remarks personally. There is no plural form of the word "you" but there is no reason to take it singularly unless it really does apply.

I'm done on this topic. The messenger is shot.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Bernie Saunders is going to be on Jimmy kimmel tonight. Might be worth a watch.

[dark_crystal]

I don't mind if Canada yells at me, i deserve it. I am not doing everything i possibly can to fight Trump.

I talk a lot of shit online and i have donated to a lot of causes and candidates but every time i find out about an opportunity to volunteer or phone bank or protest i am already scheduled for something else.

I tell myself that working in the library counts as activism, so i have kind of over-committed to that, which is why i'm always over-scheduled </end excuse font>

At some point we are going to have to do what Puerto Rico did. There will come a day when there are more people in the streets than not. I tell myself I'll show up for that, at least.

But look what it took to get Puerto Rico to that point: they caught the government laughing about three thousand hurricane deaths.

We have seen the law enforcement laughing about abusing asylum-seekers, which is just as bad, but it doesn't touch the white people.

I fear that the only way out of this disaster lies through a worse disaster. A disaster that hurts enough white people to piss them off. Something has to piss them off to the point where they'll get mad at the same people they paid to block progress against the thing that just broke them.

"I know i elected you so you could tell me this exact thing was a hoax, but you should have known better! I demand to speak to your manager!"

Barring that:

191 days to Iowa caucus
220 days to Super Tuesday
355 days to the nomination

[dark_crystal]

I don't mind if Canada yells at me, i deserve it. I am not doing everything i possibly can to fight Trump.

I talk a lot of shit online and i have donated to a lot of causes and candidates but every time i find out about an opportunity to volunteer or phone bank or protest i am already scheduled for something else.

I tell myself that working in the library counts as activism, so i have kind of over-committed to that, which is why i'm always over-scheduled </end excuse font>


Found this today, i feel better :superfunny:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAfyA8mXoAE2dDo?format=jpg&name=small

[~ocean]

This isn't a debate it's a Biden bashing ~ they are all patting their backs and bashing ~ it's sickening no one is saying any way they will make a change we know what has to change they don't say HOW ~ I'm embarrassed for them ~ I do like this Mr. Yang if anything he would be great in congress

[ksrainbow]

2 Debates @ MSNBC-
2 Debates @ CNN-

The 20 candidates need corrective glasses/contacts/reality exams.

Ks- :annoyed:

[~ocean]

I loved Stephen Colbert's review of the debates lol

[charley]

gotta love motown, and their take on the debates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWQiE4N648

=rsWQiE4N648

[homoe]

gotta love motown, and their take on the debates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWQiE4N648

=rsWQiE4N648

LOVED this.......:hangloose:

[Kätzchen]

Two days of back-to-back carnage in two different US cities (El Paso, Texas & Dayton, Ohio) involving the lightning rod issue affecting American society: Gun Control.



I'm hoping that this lightning rod issue, among other vital issues (1st and foremost, canning the GOP party and saying 'goodbye' to the T^^^P administration), of Gun Control gets the attention it deserves, politically, because the Gun Lobby is controlled primarily by the GOP, I believe, and de-fanging the Gun Lobby - the NRA. No doubt, this is a tough thing to do, but in light of the carnage of criminal gun assault cases across the contiguous states of America and the twin issue of Police Brutality, I hope some presidential candidate in the Democratic Party will emerge with a viable and reasonable plan to address both issues, as well as the Immigration Crisis at the borders and the state sanctioned criminal mistreatment of those who seek safety in America.

I keep hoping that Democratic Senator Castro (from Texas) will emerge from the pack and present the most solid compelling case to vote him in as Pres. of the US, because I'm not sure other Democratic contenders are building the most compelling case to seat a member of the Democratic Party as POTUS.

<<<<<<<~~~ Voting BLUE (Democratic Party Ticket) in 20/20.

[Kätzchen]

I heard on NPR this morning that Gov. Jay Inslee is running for President. I think he has an progressive vision concerning climate change issues. As well, too, he is supportive toward LGBTQ community issues. Not sure where he stands on Immigration but I am guessing he has experience in that domain, as well.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Biden expressed sympathy for the people of Michigan and Houston at a fundraiser last night.

The mass shootings were in El Paso and Ohio. :seeingstars:

I have no words.

[C0LLETTE]

29 dead...ok..now what are you going to have for breakfast/supper tonight. Have some chocolate milk.

[homoe]

Biden expressed sympathy for the people of Michigan and Houston at a fundraiser last night.

The mass shootings were in El Paso and Ohio. :seeingstars:

I have no words.


This scares me beyond words can express...

[MsTinkerbelly]

29 dead...ok..now what are you going to have for breakfast/supper tonight. Have some chocolate milk.

We are all numb and grieving over 200+ instances of mass shootings JUST THIS YEAR.

We do not need this shit from you! Why is it that instead of having helpful solutions, or sympathy for our grief, you feel the overwhelming need to come here to make fun of us for our fluff posts!

I have lost all respect for you, take a flying leap off of a very short pier.

[Apocalipstic]

We are all numb and grieving over 200+ instances of mass shootings JUST THIS YEAR.

We do not need this shit from you! Why is it that instead of having helpful solutions, or sympathy for our grief, you feel the overwhelming need to come here to make fun of us for our fluff posts!

I have lost all respect for you, take a flying leap off of a very short pier.

Agreed. Reads almost like a bot, just wanting to spew darkness.

[cathexis]

We are all numb and grieving over 200+ instances of mass shootings JUST THIS YEAR.

We do not need this shit from you! Why is it that instead of having helpful solutions, or sympathy for our grief, you feel the overwhelming need to come here to make fun of us for our fluff posts!

I have lost all respect for you, take a flying leap off of a very short pier.

Concur.
How can a citizen of an avowed G-7 ally country uncaringly throw hard rocks toward a close neighbor in trouble. Yes, Trump dissed Trudeau, but that is a symptom of our problem.
For those Internationales unfamiliar with our problem, we are a country in mourning for 200 innocent civilians gunned down by mass murderers who were following the lead of our fascist president. Trump, in concert with Putin, of Russia, have conspired to create chaos through guerrilla warfare conducted by ultra-right pundits who are bent on destruction. Our country has the possibility of erupting into civil war with those same pundits killing as many black, brown, Jewish, and others different from themselves as they possibly can.
I have always believed that Canadians had our back. We are in a desperate situation where our people need the support and help of our neighbors and allies.
The U.S. People are not at blame for the actions of our fascist president. We are victims of an international conspiracy.

[C0LLETTE]

I keep wondering whether it is worth writing this post but decided I'd try just this once.

There was nothing mocking about my post it was simply an ironic reference to all the other mass murders that have come and quickly gone: Parkdale, Las Vegas, Charlottesville , etc etc...they stretch back hundreds of years...and then people move on...AM I REALLY THE FIRST PERSON WHO HAS EVER COMMENTED ON THIS??? OR IS IT THE FACT, LIKE JONATHAN SWIFT'S "MODEST PROPOSAL" I should have left the irony lie and just been so literal no fool could have possibly misinterpreted the intention of the post.

[Apocalipstic]

I keep wondering whether it is worth writing this post but decided I'd try just this once.

There was nothing mocking about my post it was simply an ironic reference to all the other mass murders that have come and quickly gone: Parkdale, Las Vegas, Charlottesville , etc etc...they stretch back hundreds of years...and then people move on...AM I REALLY THE FIRST PERSON WHO HAS EVER COMMENTED ON THIS??? OR IS IT THE FACT, LIKE JONATHAN SWIFT'S "MODEST PROPOSAL" I should have left the irony lie and just been so literal no fool could have possibly misinterpreted the intention of the post. I wish I could block your arrogant dismissive insulting posts

[MsTinkerbelly]

I wish I could block your arrogant dismissive insulting posts

You can put anyone on ignore, and you will not see their posts.

For the sake of my health, I have put finally put someone on ignore.

[cathexis]

We are all numb and grieving over 200+ instances of mass shootings JUST THIS YEAR.

We do not need this shit from you! Why is it that instead of having helpful solutions, or sympathy for our grief, you feel the overwhelming need to come here to make fun of us for our fluff posts!

I have lost all respect for you, take a flying leap off of a very short pier.

I keep wondering whether it is worth writing this post but decided I'd try just this once.

There was nothing mocking about my post it was simply an ironic reference to all the other mass murders that have come and quickly gone: Parkdale, Las Vegas, Charlottesville , etc etc...they stretch back hundreds of years...and then people move on...AM I REALLY THE FIRST PERSON WHO HAS EVER COMMENTED ON THIS??? OR IS IT THE FACT, LIKE JONATHAN SWIFT'S "MODEST PROPOSAL" I should have left the irony lie and just been so literal no fool could have possibly misinterpreted the intention of the post.

Your words are being heard loud and clear, C0LLETTE. Perhaps, you have picked the wrong time to remind us of a flaw we are acutely aware of. We are too raw to pick at that scab.

Analysis of the long term problem would be better when the wound is bleeding a bit less.

Right now, what Americans need is compassion, support, and help. IMO, you have just chosen the wrong time for discussion on the historical perspective.

A physician would not address lifestyle changes with a patient having an acute and possibly lethal injury.

[MsTinkerbelly]

I would like to get back to the 2020 election if at all possible, anyone else?

Did you all see the news this weekend regarding Booker, Sanders and Harris stumping at a church where the Pastor has said that LGBTQIA folks are going to Hell and that we are all child molesters?

Are the candidates so out of touch that they just go where they are told to go, or do they just not care?

***edited to add...the story was on LGBTQ Nation.****

[C0LLETTE]

Ok Cathexis, I'm writing to you, in particular, because I think you understood the essence of my post.
But, Cathexis, it is never the "right time".

We all feel compassion and sympathy, no question, but as the people of Dayton are crying out they've had enough of the words, prayers, expressions of grief, etc..and saying "Do Something". This patient may die but when exactly do you figure is the right time to start talking before the next patient is lying there. It's always the wrong time.

There is no easy answer, no easy solution but the work has to start somewhere and immediately, the anger must not be allowed to die down before no one again can remember when El Paso and Dayton took place. Most people don't even remember when Sandy Hook took place...and that is what must never be allowed to happen.

So you can all blast me much as you like but I do remember Sandy Hook. I did grieve Sandy Hook and I can remember the names and faces of all those victims.

[Kätzchen]

So...… tonight I dedicate my post to all the members in our community who somehow aren't around anymore (you know who you are!! I miss reading your posts and articulate points of view).


I've been reading news articles from the website for progressive news coverage: Common Dreams (https://www.commondreams.org/) (click the title, it takes you to their website).

Here are a few things I have noticed that haven't gotten much coverage in the news, which might be good ideas for current Democratic Presidential Candidates to speak up about:

1) FEMA (have any of the victims of climate change weather tragedies received any monetary benefit since 2016?);

2) Does the current administration owe your city money due to them visiting your city and incurring outrageous public safety fees, like it owes El Paso (T^^^P admin owes El Paso $500K)???

3) Did anyone else see the news byte from MM which has created some buzz around former 1st Lady Michelle Obama, running for President? I heard it on NPR today.... and read about it elsewhere online.



5) I'd like to see the Castro brothers annihilate the current administrations vitriol surrounding racially motivated hate directed toward Mexico and it's citizens and any individual from any Central or South American country who wants to immigrate to the US. Here is a current research article from The Pew Research Center (non-partisan think tank) which presents scientific data that people of Mexican ethnicity/nationality are NOT illegally immigrating to the US (See Link Below).

5 Facts About Illegal Immigration In The US
(The Pew Research Center, June 12th 2019) (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/)


The El Paso tragedy is, in my mind, more than just a tipping-point issue on Gun Control and Immigration and that infernal load of baloney about the 'wall' that the DC administration is hell bent on building across the southern border of the US and all the other troubling issues concerning locking up and caging up countless children and adults who left their own country due to crushing levels of poverty created by the so-called 'Free Trade Policy' which has done nothing to help anyone but line the pockets of the filthy rich and used in tit-4-tat trade war crap by the current monster in office.

So many critical policy issues at stake. I won't be surprised if the GOP has been raiding PENSION policy plans and setting up a coup to take down every policy that protects the common and not so common workers in America.

That's all I got tonight. Just a mountain of concerns and a boat load of sadness and grief for all the people who are suffering tonight due to horrific tragedies around the country.

[dark_crystal]

I Beto having a moment out there or is it just in Texas?

He said "what the fuck" over the weekend and everyone swooned all over social media.

[Martina]

As a native of the Dayton area, who went to school and worked in Dayton, I don't think Dayton needs people from outside our nation's boundaries advocating for us. We will do fine, thank you very much. Dayton was the Ohio city most affected by the opioid crisis, but is now the model city for reducing deaths from opioids. We don't need others patronizing us.

I also think if you're going to make a point about remembering, you might get the names right. It's Parkland, not Parkdale. I don't think too many U.S. citizens would have made that error because the lives lost were our own.

[Allison W]

Perhaps, you misunderstand what I mean by Far Left. In my understanding, the Far Left are the parties that include the Trotskyists and Left Anarchists not what is being referred to in popular political rhetoric today. If you are indeed speaking the same parties as I am, then we need to have a real conversation.

The U.S. is not, in any way, in shape to have a revolution. The true left does not have the support needed. Now, if you're talking Sanders and Democratic Socialism, maybe the country can entertain the idea. Only maybe, but Bernie doesn't have the backing, polls reveal that centrists would be more likely to be successful.

I feel that we need to, above all, defeat Trump else this current Fascist course continue. However, there are leftists who believe that the more right-wing a climate, the more likely a revolution will succeed. Personally, I prefer not to tempt fate.

I mean, long-term? Liberal capitalism is a sinking ship and will give way to either socialism or fascism. I agree that right now we don't have the right conditions for revolution, but it's not because we're not far enough to the right, it's because right-wing propaganda that survival interests are determined by racial tribe rather than by economic class has been extremely successful. There's a reason I back the candidate who speaks of forbidden ideas like the class consciousness: the more people are aware that an elite class of users that can be defined by the power they have over resources and their ability to control others' access to resources, not any racial or ethnic grouping, is what's killing us, the more likely socialist revolution will succeed.

Also, centrism isn't a solution, because the status quo that centrists want to return to is the disease. Because the status quo, the center, is that the rich continue to get richer, the poor continue to get poorer, and the planet continues to choke to death on an endless spew of carbon, methane, and other greenhouse gases, and, oh, we continue putting immigrants in concentration camps because Trump didn't start that; it was happening under Obama too. That is the norm; that is our default. The right wing sublimates our fears into a fear of the brown and queer Other, and blames the brown and queer Other for the hopelessness looming in the mind of everyone who isn't in a bubble, and that's what put Trump in office in 2016. If we put a centrist in office in 2020, all we do is kick the can down the road for four more years and then get someone even worse than Trump in 2024 because only the fascists are offering even the pretense of an escape from the diseased status quo, even if it's a false one.

But yeah. The fascism is not something Trump created. It already exists at the heart of our political status quo, and that status quo resulted in Trump, not the other way around.

Also those polls don't measure the masses of disillusioned who only show up to vote if there's a candidate worth voting for; they are calibrated around the people who will show up even if the menu is absolute shit, because it's a lot harder to predict how many irregular voters a candidate will mobilize if they get nominated. Hell, they don't even measure people without landlines, which is to say, voters under 40 are largely excluded. But suffice it to say there are far more irregulars and young people to win over than there are "centrists" to win over.

I would like to get back to the 2020 election if at all possible, anyone else?

Did you all see the news this weekend regarding Booker, Sanders and Harris stumping at a church where the Pastor has said that LGBTQIA folks are going to Hell and that we are all child molesters?

Are the candidates so out of touch that they just go where they are told to go, or do they just not care?

***edited to add...the story was on LGBTQ Nation.****

I can't speak for Booker or Harris, but this is... a little extreme for Sanders but otherwise on-brand. Like, this isn't the first time he's gone into a right-wing venue to spread left-wing ideas, because besides the young and the dispossessed, his campaign doesn't work by simply attempting to parrot agreement with someone's existing stances (either by moving to the center or preaching to the choir) but rather by winning over converts, frequently by way of priming non-rich cultural conservatives to vote for their economic interests rather than on cultural grounds. He won't win over that pastor, but he might win over some of the congregation.

I Beto having a moment out there or is it just in Texas?

He said "what the fuck" over the weekend and everyone swooned all over social media.

I mean I did gain a little respect for him when he had that candid explosion about what the source of our gun violence problem is, yes.

Speaking of that gun violence problem, I gotta say that very few of the ideas we actually have on the table now will have the desired effect. The only one currently in circulation that might actually help would be tightening restrictions on people convicted of DV charges having guns to give the DA and other local authorities less ability to let the perp weasel out of it. A lot of others would just make it more difficult for poor people (like minorities at risk of right-wing violence) to own guns. Also fuck Andrew Cuomo's stupid proposal for a mental health registry. That's all we fucking need, a centralized list of people to stigmatize for needing mental health care, when mental illness has no relationship to our current mass shooting crisis. We already know who our mass shooters are and they're not mentally ill: they're largely domestic abusers and the politically motivated, particularly white nationalists.

tl;dr If we banned domestic abusers and white nationalists from owning guns, we could stop mass shootings and abolish the police at the same time, this is extremely efficient policy-making.

[C0LLETTE]

As a native of the Dayton area, who went to school and worked in Dayton, I don't think Dayton needs people from outside our nation's boundaries advocating for us. We will do fine, thank you very much. Dayton was the Ohio city most affected by the opioid crisis, but is now the model city for reducing deaths from opioids. We don't need others patronizing us.

I also think if you're going to make a point about remembering, you might get the names right. It's Parkland, not Parkdale. I don't think too many U.S. citizens would have made that error because the lives lost were our own.

How do you know what the people of Dayton "need" ? Are you really speaking for "the people of Dayton" because you once lived there? I don't speak for all Canadians even though people here try to keep shoving me into that corner

What is it you actually know/remember about the Holocaust? But I sure as Hell wouldn't hate you for referencing that pain, even 70 years later. I wouldn't ask you to prove you were Jewish or show me where you live..even if you misspelled the name of every single Concentration Camp.

There was nothing patronizing about my post except what you demagogically tried to stick in there.

As for Parkdale/Parkland... Why are you so unable to accept that even if one person outside America remembers those crimes it is something to acknowledge positively. The murder of children, even if those children are American, is not a crime only against America.

Do you really think that only citizens of Somalia can speak out on the massacres there, only citizens of Hong Kong can speak out on the repression there, only Saudis can speak out about the murder of reporters there?

You don't need to be able to spell every name right, every chronology exactly, to have a right to express an empathy for the central issue...

otherwise you end up with an ever diminishing circle of nodding heads and no one else feels a right to speak out...even in the most innocuous way.

And please stop looking for the tiniest reference to try to diminish larger points...it just looks impotent .

[MsTinkerbelly]

My point about Booker/Sanders/Harris, was that by going to that venue for their political gain, and not as a push back to the message of hate by their pastor, gave implicit approval to his message. In essence, saying that he had the power to bring together an audience of right leaning people to hear their stump speech, so it was fine that he spoke out against us.

This was not right leaning Foxx news giving them a townhall, this was someone using hate speech against our community, and the 3 of them NEVER addressed the issue. Booker and Harris ATTENDED A CHURCH SERVICE, while Sanders went so far as to give his political stump speech.

I won’t vote for any of them, and Harris was my prior choice.

[Kätzchen]

My point about Booker/Sanders/Harris, was that by going to that venue for their political gain, and not as a push back to the message of hate by their pastor, gave implicit approval to his message. In essence, saying that he had the power to bring together an audience of right leaning people to hear their stump speech, so it was fine that he spoke out against us.

This was not right leaning Foxx news giving them a townhall, this was someone using hate speech against our community, and the 3 of them NEVER addressed the issue. Booker and Harris ATTENDED A CHURCH SERVICE, while Sanders went so far as to give his political stump speech.

I won’t vote for any of them, and Harris was my prior choice.

You make a salient point, and I agree with your assessment. Why is that, that people have a hard time not seeing the exact point you make: That all three of them never addressed that specific issue -- the glaring issue of not calling out the undisguisable bigotry of hate speech directed toward the greater LGBTQ community?

In a parallel type situation, NPR's 'Fresh Air' hosts took up the larger discussion about how the owner of a nation-wide gym facility is actually hosting a T^^^P fundraiser at his Connecticut home; that said owner's profits must be funding right-wing nationalist agenda for T/P because they have been soliciting big-ticket prices to attend this (COUGH/PUKE) event at the gym owner's private Connecticut residence; that even gym attendee's in West Hollywood (who were interviewed on the radio show) took issue with how the gym owner is basically thumbing his nose at the community that supports his facilities and how people just don't get how awful it is that the place they've been pumping money into is none other that a hate-sponsoring enterprise with no conscience on how they are using their profits to fund T-monster-land, etc.

My heart is hurting for those who are being rounded up in ICE raids: parents and kids lives are torn apart with unimaginable heartache.


First They Came ...


They came for the Communists, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t
a Communist;

They came for the Socialists, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t a Socialist;

They came for the labor leaders, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t a labor leader;

They came for the Jews, and I didn’t
object – For I wasn’t a Jew;

Then they came for me –
And there was no one left to object.

Martin Niemöller



Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller (14 January 1892 – 6 March 1984) was a German theologian and Lutheran pastor. He is best known for his opposition to the Nazi regime during the 1930s and for his widely quoted poem "First they came ...". (LINK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niemöller))

[Kätzchen]

Also, centrism isn't a solution, because the status quo that centrists want to return to is the disease. Because the status quo, the center, is that the rich continue to get richer, the poor continue to get poorer, and the planet continues to choke to death on an endless spew of carbon, methane, and other greenhouse gases, and, oh, we continue putting immigrants in concentration camps because Trump didn't start that; it was happening under Obama too. That is the norm; that is our default. The right wing sublimates our fears into a fear of the brown and queer Other, and blames the brown and queer Other for the hopelessness looming in the mind of everyone who isn't in a bubble, and that's what put Trump in office in 2016. If we put a centrist in office in 2020, all we do is kick the can down the road for four more years and then get someone even worse than Trump in 2024 because only the fascists are offering even the pretense of an escape from the diseased status quo, even if it's a false one.

But yeah....fascism is not something Trump created. It already exists at the heart of our political status quo, and that status quo resulted in Trump, not the other way around.

I hope you don't mind Allison that I've excerpted the best part of your latest post. Thank you for saying it so well. I agree with you 100%.

[Kätzchen]

I got home tonight and while surfing today's top headline news in politics, I read about Harry Reid making the case for getting rid of the 'fillibuster' and how Senator Elizabeth Warren is backing that idea with all the strength she can- politically.

Those 'tightey-whitey' GOP senators who have been strangling the heck out of any last ounce or shred of credibility in how they want ppl to think they are putting the will of the people first? I hope that they will RUE the DAY when they lose their chairs in the Senate because I don't think they've ever put the will of the people first. They keep putting their own self interests ahead of the greater good of the American public.

How anyone cannot see the racist practices employed by the GOP and their henchmen, and monster in the WH, is beyond me.

Meanwhile, the economy is on the brink of something far worse than the recession of 2008 and the GOP keeps shredding policy (s) that protects the most vulnerable of the American population and immigrants, and policy that is there for the sake of e v e r y o n e.


*Tick Tock, Tick Tock*



Super grateful tonight for those who are working on behalf of the people, The Democrats.

[Martina]

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

[cathexis]

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

Beto's speech made sense to me right off. The joy and fun of a fair is inappropriate for a politician when his home state is in mourning. That's how it would be perceived by people who aren't thinking politics.

As for the fairly unknown candidates, I like Bennet (probable sp). Yeah, he's pretty centrist, but I think he's a honest and hard working politician who truly cares about our country. Anybody else hear how this quiet guy stood up against Cruz about flooding in Colorado? In chambers, he rose and paced, obviously upset. Apparently, Cruz had said something negative about money for flood victims. Bennet spoke of the farmers, ranchers, and small businesses destroyed by the flood. Sounded like he truly cared about his constituents.

[easygoingfemme]

I'm enjoying following Andy Yang. He was one of my brother's closest friends growing up and he was a regular at our dinner table. We are friends on facebook and I get to see pictures of him doing goofy things with his family and keeping it real. Not saying he has my vote, but, he's a good guy and I like his approach. Pretty sure my mom is going to vote for him because we know my brother would have.

[dark_crystal]

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

He's trying to make himself into "the immigration guy" and it is frustrating bc Castro is one step ahead of him always but gets no coverage

[dark_crystal]

I'm enjoying following Andy Yang. He was one of my brother's closest friends growing up and he was a regular at our dinner table. We are friends on facebook and I get to see pictures of him doing goofy things with his family and keeping it real. Not saying he has my vote, but, he's a good guy and I like his approach. Pretty sure my mom is going to vote for him because we know my brother would have.

One of my staff is ALL IN for Yang but she quit listening at "a thousand bucks a month for everyone"

The thing about Yang is he has most of the right beliefs, but that thousand bucks is also his entire climate change plan. You're supposed to use the money to "move to higher ground."

I do think planning for an orderly mass migration should be on the table. We SHOULD change our behavior in an effort to keep more places inhabitable, but humans are famous for leaving projects until the night before they are due

[Martina]

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/cnn-poll-08-20-19/index.html

CNN seems to think Biden will keep his lead. Honestly no one knows anything, IMO, until the voting starts. Sadly, Kamala has dropped back. She's a good candidate. I have to think her campaign might not be being run well. I don't know though.

I don't want Biden to take it with all these decent candidates available. But he might. And age and gaffes and Obama-taint notwithstanding, he probably can beat Trump. So there's that.

[Kätzchen]

Former District Attorney for the Southern District of New York Preet Bharara is the Executive Vice President of Some Spider Studios and host of "Stay Tuned With Preet" on the Café channel at YouTube. I enjoy listening to his program, where people ask Preet timely questions about current day events in politics or in other venues.

Here's an hour long video of his latest "Ask Preet" pod-cast program, where he interviews Colorado's Senator Michael Bennet, who apparently is running for POTUS. The interview begins at about the 14 minute mark. I thought I'd leave it here, in this thread for the 2020 Presidential election.

I had no idea that Senator Bennet was running for president. See what you think of Preet's interview of Senator Michael Bennet. I thought it was an amazing interview.

GJJBeaLIQZ4

[Apocalipstic]

It occurred to me yesterday, as I watched all the negative things Trump is enacting every day, that maybe he knows he won't win again.

I sure hope not!

[theoddz]

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/cnn-poll-08-20-19/index.html

CNN seems to think Biden will keep his lead. Honestly no one knows anything, IMO, until the voting starts. Sadly, Kamala has dropped back. She's a good candidate. I have to think her campaign might not be being run well. I don't know though.

I don't want Biden to take it with all these decent candidates available. But he might. And age and gaffes and Obama-taint notwithstanding, he probably can beat Trump. So there's that.

I don't know. Biden probably will be the one to get the nomination. For some reason, historically, the Democratic party can't seem to muster the chutzpah to just go all the way into embracing progressivism. They can't seem to gather much courage to fight the boldness of the GOP and its willingness to just go whole hog with their agenda, either. I guess it's too busy trying to "make nice" and not offend anyone, especially the so-called "moderates". It's sure given the Democrats a reputation for a weak backbone and after a while, their entire modus operendi is just tiresome and self defeating.

I keep wondering if this election cycle will be the one where Democrats will finally pull up its big boy/girl drawers and engage the GOP with an equal but opposite amount of vigorous energy and F-I-G-H-T for what it stands for. Quit the fuck "making nice" and go in it to WIN. Fuck these dimwits who are afraid to wipe their own noses or throw a punch!! We can still fight for what we believe and do it with dignity and class.....but we need to DO IT. The DNC needs to quit going with the usual suspects and grow a damned spine!!! Quit with this "gentle polite tugging" to the left and let's give it a big SHOVE. Dammit.

:rant:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Orema]

I hope Trump doesn’t take on Nikki Haley as VP. I’m not sure Trump needs Pence for the Evangelical voters anymore. Trump will get those votes, I think, based on the judges he’s already put in place—they know they can count on Trump. But, Trump needs someone whispering in his ear and if it’s not Pence for the Evangelical voters, then I wonder who would/could fill those shoes.

I imagine Haley would be seen as a voice of reason appealing to Republican and Democratic women.

Whether it’s Haley or Pence, I think we’re gonna have four more years of this.

[kittygrrl]

i dig the vibe of Castro and Yang...a grrl can dream

[Orema]

I hope Trump doesn’t take on Nikki Haley as VP. I’m not sure Trump needs Pence for the Evangelical voters anymore. Trump will get those votes, I think, based on the judges he’s already put in place—they know they can count on Trump. But, Trump needs someone whispering in his ear and if it’s not Pence for the Evangelical voters, then I wonder who would/could fill those shoes.

I imagine Haley would be seen as a voice of reason appealing to Republican and Democratic women.

Whether it’s Haley or Pence, I think we’re gonna have four more years of this.

The more I think about Haley the more I can see it happening.

A Trump/Haley win in 2020 could set up Haley to run and win in 2024 as POTUS. I think Republicans would sacrifice Pence as VP in 2020 if they thought they could pull this off. Not only would they be the party to put forth the first woman of color as VP, but also as POTUS.

Haley could win in 2024 with Republican and Democratic women voters and without “the base.” Trump needs “the base” because there are Republican and Democratic voters who won’t vote for him. I think Haley would get those votes, plus more, and could ignore the demands of the base. Well, some demands.

I image resistance to this in and out of the the White House, but I think this is one way the Republicans can have control for 8 more years.

The Democrats? I’ll vote in the primary and the nominee will get my vote. That’s the best I can say about the Dems.

[dark_crystal]

I don't know. Biden probably will be the one to get the nomination. For some reason, historically, the Democratic party can't seem to muster the chutzpah to just go all the way into embracing progressivism. They can't seem to gather much courage to fight the boldness of the GOP and its willingness to just go whole hog with their agenda, either. I guess it's too busy trying to "make nice" and not offend anyone, especially the so-called "moderates". It's sure given the Democrats a reputation for a weak backbone and after a while, their entire modus operendi is just tiresome and self defeating.

I keep wondering if this election cycle will be the one where Democrats will finally pull up its big boy/girl drawers and engage the GOP with an equal but opposite amount of vigorous energy and F-I-G-H-T for what it stands for. Quit the fuck "making nice" and go in it to WIN. Fuck these dimwits who are afraid to wipe their own noses or throw a punch!! We can still fight for what we believe and do it with dignity and class.....but we need to DO IT. The DNC needs to quit going with the usual suspects and grow a damned spine!!! Quit with this "gentle polite tugging" to the left and let's give it a big SHOVE. Dammit.

:rant:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

They are not afraid. They are capitalism's backup plan.

The Democrats as they currently exist are allowed to diverge from the Republicans only to the degree which leaves the flow of wealth intact. The flow can narrow within certain margins if it has to, but it cannot be redistributed.

(As much as i have ranted against the idea in other threads, I'm not obtuse, I know that this is what Chapo Traphouse is talking about when they call identity issues a distraction. It is true that there can be huge differences in how the two parties treat minorities without any real threat to most industries' profits.)

As long as social stratification is preserved, capital ultimately doesn't care about the identities inside those strata. The GOP sees that it's easiest and most profitable to just preserve traditional race and gender stratification, while the Democrats are able to look progressive in their willingness to let identities mix within strata, or to sacrifice a variably-sized slice of still-healthy profits to keep people in the lowest strata alive.

Capital does not want to accommodate this sacrifice, but it can easily survive it. The GOP way is more profitable, and therefore preferable, but if they should happen to go too far and fall from grace for awhile, their Democratic replacements will be tolerable. A backup plan.

The thing is, capitalism is not going to survive the things humans are going to have to do to survive on this planet. We keep trying to find ways around that by using tax credits to reward capital for certain sacrifices, but it was already too late for that in 2008.

We are going to fight capital every step of the way and at the end? When what's left of us are eking out our survival down in the caves or whatever?

It's going to be socialist as heck down there.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it all depends on how bad the economy is and if the shit hits the fan. Because there is....shit.

I was thinking he might try to run Ivanka as VP.

Trying to have positive thoughts and manifest him being out of office. Remembering that even Nixon got elected to a second term before it all went down in flames.

If indeed Trump were president and were deposed/died/whetever gets him out of office, I would rather be left with NH than Pence.

[dark_crystal]

Small local controversy here in Houston following the debate-- Beto rented a craft brewery for a rally and that brewery was in the suburb of Katy, where there are a lot of Republicans.

The brewery posted a statement on their facebook page which said "the brewery can be rented by anyone."

I went to the post and the comments were MESSED UP, many of them along the lines of this one:

"the issue with Beto in particular is he's advocating a policy, which if implemented, would result in massive massive violence. If No Label is going to enforce this [rental] policy blindly, then i presume they won't turn away the klan or black lives matter or antifa... as long as they're not violent inside the brewery"

Coupla things: i see here the seeds of a rhetoric which would label anyone who wants any kind of ban as a terrorist (by claiming that Beto is advocating for "massive massive violence") and also holds up Black Lives Matter as basically the POC equivalent of the Klan.

There were several comments that used that comparison, each time joining the Klan to Black Lives Matter-- an organization which was born in response to white supremacist violence is now cast as the equivalent to the original embodiment of white supremacist violence, and can thus be used to excuse the Klan's continued existence.

If this is a preview of the rhetoric that is going to be deployed around anyone who supports a ban on assault weapons, it is very insidious.

Basically what it looks like to me is the real domestic terrorists trying to broaden the definition of terrorism so that it splashes over onto those trying to fight domestic terrorism.

In the same way that Obama was "the real racist," gun control activists will be labeled as "the real terrorists."

Beto is not advocating violence, he is advocating a policy to which the right has declared they will respond with violence. By continuing to advocate for a ban in light of this threat, Beto therefore becomes responsible for the illegal violence the right has promised-- it is out of their hands!

In the same way, the right claims racism was "fixed" until Obama supposedly brought it back with his "divisiveness". If it was really fixed, electing a POC would have been a non-event. Since it was most emphatically NOT a non-event, and instead caused the white folks to lose their minds, the white people made their reaction Obama's fault.

The white folks' message is "we are violent, and if you do not let the threat of that violence silence you, you are inviting that violence and therefore our violence is your fault"

[Apocalipstic]

Small local controversy here in Houston following the debate-- Beto rented a craft brewery for a rally and that brewery was in the suburb of Katy, where there are a lot of Republicans.

The brewery posted a statement on their facebook page which said "the brewery can be rented by anyone."

I went to the post and the comments were MESSED UP, many of them along the lines of this one:

"the issue with Beto in particular is he's advocating a policy, which if implemented, would result in massive massive violence. If No Label is going to enforce this [rental] policy blindly, then i presume they won't turn away the klan or black lives matter or antifa... as long as they're not violent inside the brewery"

Coupla things: i see here the seeds of a rhetoric which would label anyone who wants any kind of ban as a terrorist (by claiming that Beto is advocating for "massive massive violence") and also holds up Black Lives Matter as basically the POC equivalent of the Klan.

There were several comments that used that comparison, each time joining the Klan to Black Lives Matter-- an organization which was born in response to white supremacist violence is now cast as the equivalent to the original embodiment of white supremacist violence, and can thus be used to excuse the Klan's continued existence.

If this is a preview of the rhetoric that is going to be deployed around anyone who supports a ban on assault weapons, it is very insidious.

Basically what it looks like to me is the real domestic terrorists trying to broaden the definition of terrorism so that it splashes over onto those trying to fight domestic terrorism.

In the same way that Obama was "the real racist," gun control activists will be labeled as "the real terrorists."

Beto is not advocating violence, he is advocating a policy to which the right has declared they will respond with violence. By continuing to advocate for a ban in light of this threat, Beto therefore becomes responsible for the illegal violence the right has promised-- it is out of their hands!

In the same way, the right claims racism was "fixed" until Obama supposedly brought it back with his "divisiveness". If it was really fixed, electing a POC would have been a non-event. Since it was most emphatically NOT a non-event, and instead caused the white folks to lose their minds, the white people made their reaction Obama's fault.

The white folks' message is "we are violent, and if you do not let the threat of that violence silence you, you are inviting that violence and therefore our violence is your fault"

What a great post!~

I think no matter what happens, there will be continued violence. The pot is already stirred.

As those of us who have lived in the US for a while know, racism has always been present and if we allow one group of perceived extremists the right to protest, we must give the other side's perceived extremists the same right.

I remember as a teenager, being so aghast that the klan was allowed to have rallys. But being able to complain about the government and rally is part of our civil liberty...and the right of all US citizens.

We have to hunker down and try to make sure everyone we know votes. We need to have a strong landslide so that there is no question the cheeto must go, then when he refuses, he can be removed.

People lie and blame the other side. I see no way to stop that. :praying::praying::praying::praying::praying:

[Kätzchen]

I keep hearing positive news reports about Senator Elizabeth Warren's bid for the POTUS, and how she's been talking about policy regarding Ethics, and policy regarding Health Care. I don't know much about any position she might advocate and build policy around, concerning Labor, but I imagine she has a strong stand on these and other policy issues, which stand on the precipice of being annihilated by the horrible GOP & that infernal "Can't and Won't Tell The Truth" ~~~>>>>> T^^^P.

I dreamed the other night that Senator Warren was elected POTUS by a small percentage of votes, over that horrible person in the WH. It felt like a very scary dream, because no one in the media was quite sure if she won or not. But, in my dream, because of last minute voter reform efforts at ballot stations nation wide, and because news reporter's kept reporting, while being told to not report, by that horrible WH monster and his minions, it finally came to pass, via 'Breaking Headline News', that every single horrible person who had a hand in trying to take over the world (T, et al) were teleported by Star Trek's Vulcan of the hour, Spock, to the Neutron-Eating Star, which spit them out into the Black Hole of the Universe, never to be heard from or seen again. That was the good part of my dream, but omg, my dream scared me so much.

Anyhooooo. I sure do like how things are shaping up concerning Senator Warren's bid for the POTUS. Hopefully, the prevailing winds will carry her over the nomination line and land her in the WH, where she'll hopefully be able to salvage what's left of America and help rebuild policy and help AOC get her Green Policy for Climate Change given top priority.

I heard Naomi Klein on Democracy Now, earlier today on the drive home, and she's got a new book out, concerning Climate Change and she talked about what people can do right now, going forward. I can't remember the name of her book, but her interview was enlightening and the young lady who received the Amnesty International recognition award today, was inspirational. Greta Thunberg. That is her name. If interested in listening to either story about Naomi or Greta, you can find both stories, and accompanying videos, on the home page of: www.democracynow.org.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Did anyone catch Elizabeth Warren on Colbert last night? It is a really interesting interview, kind of a “must see” for anyone thinking of voting for a pusher of “Medicare for all.”

In a nutshell, Colbert asked if “Medicare for all” would raise taxes on the middle class, and he did his best to make her stop avoiding the question.

It really is worth a watch.

**not a fan of political double speak.

[Kelt]

I watched the clip and it was interesting. While I like the utopian concept of Medicare for all it does in fact have to be paid for. I watched the debate a few nights ago and a couple of the candidates were saying things like no premiums, no deductibles, free Medicare.

The money to pay for it will come from tax revenue just as it does now. I think that Warren, couched in doublespeak, acknowledges this in a very backhanded way generally but not in this interview. None of the candidates want to say directly that yes, the middle class and every other class of taxpayer will pay for added services, there’s nowhere else for it to come from.

Medicare isn’t free now, there are premiums and deductibles and co-pays currently. Are they proposing to revamp Medicare to make it free for those already on it and then add a large number of people? What about the doctors? Where are we going to find them? Will they be compelled to accept Medicare payments? Many do not accept Medicare patients now.

I would like to see any candidate answer these questions clearly in some sort of policy document. Not holding my breath. :thinking:

[Kätzchen]

Here's the latest in how corporate employers hurt the common worker: by taking away their healthcare coverage.

United Auto Workers are striking against GM. Whole Foods just pulled the same stunt as GM.

"Whole Foods is owned by Amazon, whose CEO Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of over $114 billion. A new analysis by the consumer watchdog Decision Data finds “Bezos makes more money than the cost of an entire year of benefits for these 1,900 employees in somewhere between 2 to 6 hours.”

LINKS (below):

General Motors Cuts Health Insurance for 50,000 Striking Workers (https://www.democracynow.org/2019/9/18/headlines/general_motors_cuts_health_insurance_for_50_000_st riking_workers)

Whole Foods Cuts Healthcare Benefits to Nearly 2,000 Workers (https://www.democracynow.org/2019/9/18/headlines/whole_foods_cuts_healthcare_benefits_to_nearly_2_0 00_workers)


I am not independently wealthy, nor did my parents die and leave all their assets to me (trust fund or annuity), nor have I ever won any proverbial lottery..... but my mom has been a nurse all her life (52 years of duty, as an 80 year old lady) and even she knows how crooked the medical industry is and the IRS. The only reason she still works 55 hours a week, and is co-owner of a business, is to generate income to pay monthly diabetic expenses for my three brothers who cannot be insured due to how the state of Idaho (run by the GOP) runs the show on who gets to be covered and who pays the most.

Will a Socialized Medicine model be a better productive way to care for people, rather than the American modeled medical industry that is robbing people left and right, no matter where the person is on the spectrum of wealth (poorest to richest, antiquated model)?


In my mind, socialized medicine seems to be working in other countries and while it may not be perfect, at least the socialized model of medical care is not like the rabid monster of care in our country --> which is sterile and cares nothing for people themselves or their wellbeing, but cares only for the money and the money-master it serves.

[charley]

Ya know, I have always felt and thought that if you give someone enough rope, they will hang themselves. The Republicans have thought that they could get away with anything and everything, and noone would care or notice. Finally, their corrupt behaviour has become so outrageous... that they have finally been caught in doing something that is so simple for anyone to understand just how wrong it is. And, the most wonderfully intelligent Pelosi has been waiting patiently for Trump and Co. (and Giuliani and even Barr) to put their big smelly feet in their mouths and destroy themselves. I think this will be the beginning of the end for the Trump and those Republicans. Finally, impeachment is coming!! BIG GRIN...

[MsTinkerbelly]

Ya know, I have always felt and thought that if you give someone enough rope, they will hang themselves. The Republicans have thought that they could get away with anything and everything, and noone would care or notice. Finally, their corrupt behaviour has become so outrageous... that they have finally been caught in doing something that is so simple for anyone to understand just how wrong it is. And, the most wonderfully intelligent Pelosi has been waiting patiently for Trump and Co. (and Giuliani and even Barr) to put their big smelly feet in their mouths and destroy themselves. I think this will be the beginning of the end for the Trump and those Republicans. Finally, impeachment is coming!! BIG GRIN...

Maybe, maybe not.

The outcome of this will be decided by what Trump says going forward, and what the American people will tolerate. What I mean, is if Trump will quit speaking, there is really no case for Impeachment. At this point, with no recordings of the conversations, he can get away with “he said, she said”, and what he feels was his intent.

THEN, we have to get a majority of the population (democrat and republican) to MAKE their representatives and senators vote for impeachment...because right now, they are too worried about losing their cushy jobs then they are about doing the right thing. Trump can be Impeached by the House, but the Senate majority is Republican...that is where the biggest roadblock lies, because like Clinton, if you get impeached in the House but not the Senate, you can continue in office, and even be re-elected.

Soooooo maybe, maybe not.

[dark_crystal]

I love how FOX News keeps trying to make sure Joe Biden gets some mud on him, too. Like, "if you trash our guy, we're going to make sure your guy gets hurt, too, fair warning!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA like taking Biden out won't be a bonus to me, please proceed

[MsTinkerbelly]

I love how FOX News keeps trying to make sure Joe Biden gets some mud on him, too. Like, "if you trash our guy, we're going to make sure your guy gets hurt, too, fair warning!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA like taking Biden out won't be a bonus to me, please proceed

Biden is almost as scary as Trump as a choice for me.

Every time is see Biden he says something utterly stupid, and grows more and more feeble looking everyday. I am not against older people, but after the age of 65-70 they should run a country? The stress, the energy needed?

I know I am far more conservative than your average Democrat, but the extreme left of Sanders and Warren also freak me out...we are on the edge of a financial collapse in this country, yet they are convinced that we can and should do much more “free stuff” for people unable or unwilling to get off of their lazy asses and work for what they get.

Omg, we are printing money like there is something backing it all up, the Fed is contemplating a NEGATIVE interest rate, and they want free Medicare and College for all?

Sorry for the rant...

[Apocalipstic]

I don't want anything free. I am fine with paying more taxes, if that includes health care and education for all. Not free.

I don't believe this is about people too lazy to work. Its about systemic suppression and exploitation of the poor. Kind of like a feudal system.

We are only as strong as our weakest resident. And right now, with people in cages, we are pretty damn weak.

I will vote against Trump. Period.

I like Joe Biden, but do agree that he is losing weight and it makes him look feeble. I am a huge fan of Elizabeth Warren, but also like her being in the Senate. Bernie? Is consistent. Also fine with him. I am not sure yet who I will support in the primary.

I think if we make corporations and the rich pay taxes in the US, we can afford these things easily. No one child in the US should fall asleep hungry ever. EVER.

Great discussion! Love the different opinions!! :tea:

[MsTinkerbelly]

Well, i’m NOT okay with paying more taxes so people get free Medicare and College. The middle class as a whole is not okay with paying more taxes so people get free Medicare and College.

Did you see the story...oh about a week ago where the DEMOCRATS on Wallstreet said they would withdraw all political funding if Warren is the Democratic candidate? The rich will play their tax games, the middle class will foot the bill; do you know that the middle class (if there is such a thing anymore), gets smaller and smaller everyday? There are more poor everyday...people who not only DON’T pay taxes, but get back tax credits aimed at the poor with children?

We are TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS in debt to countries like China, and we blithely go about living above our means (the country, not you) because we WANT, and by God the Government owes us?

You may not want anything for free, I may not want anything for free...but we support 66 MILLION Americans every day with food programs that put us deeper into debt, and that the MIDDLE class pays for because “oh we can’t let our people starve”.

This country has to wake up, get back to States making laws, and get rid the the bloated fat cats in Washington. But, it’s probably too late....

Oh, and as far as people in cages? They are here ILLEGALLY!! Send them all back across the boarder, hunt down the rest here with no legal right and send them back across, and then shoot everyone who tries it again. Poof, no more cages!

*** has no claim to being politically correct***

[Kätzchen]

One of the things I cherish about taking the time to observe and listen, at my own pace and not at the speed of Social Media (ie, Twitter, FB or any other media platform), is that it's possible to ascertain a better 'picture' of the 24/7 emotionally and intellectually taxing responsibility to make sure that our country does not succumb to the chaos driven climate ruining lunacy of the narcissist who occupies the WH and the cronies that person uses to further their agenda.

I am SOOOO impressed with Nancy Pelosi. Wow. I have stood in awe of her ability to not cave and to keep her self positioned accordingly as a stalwart person of integrity; a person who is not easily swept aside by the incessant toxic culture that is pervasive and threatens to destabilize the very existence of the democracy in this country. I can't think of any person who even comes close to her brand or style of leadership. I've often wanted to write a thank you letter to her for the way she has stood by The People and upheld tenets of Democracy, especially with wave after wave and assault after assault by the very person in the WH who does not even care about the well being of people who call America their home.

I read an article on CNN tonight. It was an analysis of sorts. Over 20 seats occupied by the GOP are up for election or re-election and if Democrats can occupy those seats and gain a few more, then the House and the Senate will be occupied and under the control of Democrats. No matter who is elected POTUS. To me, if Democrats maintain control of The House and then gain control of The Senate, then that is the 'light at the end of the tunnel', I think. I can see why Nancy Pelosi is very concerned about both The House of Representatives and gaining control of The Senate. I like her laser focus on this the most.

I am grateful tonight for the laser focus of Democrats who have been staying the course, during these very frightful times. They are the proverbial "Statue of Liberty" to me. They are the beacon of light, during the very dark oppressive political unrest our country is suffering through.

I'm grateful too, for the Obama era judges appointed to Federal Courts, who keep saying "NO" to those who would take away the rights of women, people of color, or members of minority groups who have little to no privilege or social representation in protective ways.

I long for the day when people adopt the principle of … "Do No Harm."

Hate cannot be privileged over kindness.

Was it not the 16th President Abraham Lincoln, who said that "It is a sin to be silent when it's your duty to protest?"

Here's to every single person who will not be silent. Here's to every person who demands Justice for All. Here's to every person who will actively work toward making our country "The Land of The Free".

Right now, America has never been more ugly.

In almost one year from now, I hope our country can once again be....

America, The Beautiful.

[dark_crystal]

When it comes to "free" stuff like college and health care i am absolutely fine with paying more taxes.

As someone who watched my father's career become obsolete due to technology, and whose own career is constantly held up as an example of a job technology could do (it can't), i believe that more and more people are going to be automated out of their jobs. Retail is collapsing and trucking is on its way out, and those are massive swathes of the population. We are not going to have jobs for all of those people. This is the worst time in history to be talking about personal responsibility.

People whose jobs become obsolete should seek retraining, of course. But if they can't afford it, or simply are not smart enough, or get too depressed and demoralized to try, or get mad at the world and resolve to suck the government teat as revenge, should that be a literal death sentence?

When the safety net is thin, or has holes in it, and we leave those holes or make them bigger, what we are saying is that it is ok for some people to fall through and literally die of exposure, starvation, or lack of health care.

That might have been true in the pre-industrial era, but i think a country that produces billionaires should have enough of a safety net to ensure that every single person is at least minimally housed and fed, whether they deserve it or not. We don't have to keep them comfortably, but we do have to keep everyone alive, i think.

i do not care if people are lazy. Laziness should not get you cast out onto the street and left to starve, in this day and age-- in past eras, yes, sure, maybe everybody needed to pull their weight. But in a society where one guy (Jeff Bezos) can make $4,475,885 per hour i just don't see how we can accept people dying from insulin rationing or of exposure from sleeping under a bridge somewhere.

There is no morality under which one guy "deserves" to make $4,475,885 per hour and another guy "deserves" to starve on the street. No achievement gap that big can actually exist between two human persons. Bezos may be a superior human to some degree, but it is not possible that anyone at all can be that superior to anyone else.

[nhplowboi]

Not as quick as we would like in this day of modern and fast technology......it all starts to tumble down. Sorry Donnie...we're coming for you.

[Apocalipstic]

*not reposting Ms. Tinkerbelly's post* But wanted to let you know I have reported it as hate speech.

I really tried not to say anything, but I don't want anyone to look at this thread and in any way think its okay to suggest human beings should be shot.

:praying:

[Kelt]

I guess I would rather see both the public and the candidates focus their conversation on how to fix situations rather than who to blame for them. There will be plenty of time to figure out who gets what once there’s anything to get. The United States is deeply in debt. The systems that we use for distributing benefits and entitlements to the people who need them is so broken that we likely waste more money on inefficiencies then we spend actually helping people. It’s my belief that we could do a lot more with the tax revenues already being collected if we would do the hard work of revamping our benefit distribution systems utilizing the tools that have been developed in this century. That of course, will depend on the Congress and Senate doing their respective jobs.

When it comes to folks volunteering themselves and others to pay higher taxes or other folks fighting hard to keep their incomes in their own pockets I think each case is different. A person paying something like 15 to 25% as their effective tax burden might well be willing to kick in a couple more percentage points. On the other hand, an individual already paying over 50% might be less willing to do so. Most people ultimately vote their wallet. People receiving benefits paid for by others are very likely to vote for more. The folks paying for them are less likely to do so.

I don’t like either extreme end of the stick and just wish there were more moderate choices.

[MsTinkerbelly]

*not reposting Ms. Tinkerbelly's post* But wanted to let you know I have reported it as hate speech.

I really tried not to say anything, but I don't want anyone to look at this thread and in any way think its okay to suggest human beings should be shot.

:praying:

It is of course your right to report as you wish.

I stand by my statement, although this may not have been the place to express an honest opinion. I’ll work on not saying everything that crosses my mind.

Have a nice day.

[~ocean]

Donald sings to Melania 3Fn36l_z3WY

[The_Lady_Snow]

Zero days WITHOUT White nonsense


#nohoodsrequired

#imaproudborderjumper
#fuckyou

[The_Lady_Snow]

You can't call me a parasite cause your kid can't get a job, you can erase your volatile verbiage but we see you


I've ZERO academic education, yet I managed to steal the jobs of poor White folk.


Maybe it's your daughter's issues and not ours

[Medusa]

Folks-

Most of you do really well expressing your point of view without resorting to racism, racist name-calling, or generally gross Fuckery. I appreciate that with my whole heart, really I do.

My heart can’t take seeing anti-immigrant speech or open racism on these forums so I’m dismissing anyone who calls immigrants “parasites” from this space.

Immigrants are human beings.

Period.

Thanks,

Angie.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Folks..

Y'all really need to take a step back and view or at least attempt to view the trauma words like this cause BIPOC people's..

To come in here and disregard any Latinos/Hispanic people and their families is disconcerting and traumatizing.

Look around this vast network and think how safe queers who aren't undocumented feel, or immigrants..

You create an unsafe environment for us, but that's typically how systematic oppression goes.


Way to go, way to create a "safe queer space "

[Apocalipstic]

Medusa and Lady Snow :rrose:

[charley]

This woman, former American ambassador, Maria Yovanovitch, testified today, in what seems like a situation wherein people of integrity (such as her) were removed from positions of integrity and an anti-corruption stance so that corrupt people would replace them so as to further the personal interests of people in power. Giuliani's buds have been arrested for fraud. Of Giuliani, Yovanovitch "speculated that his cronies wanted her gone to make it easier to fatten their bank accounts with her anti-corruption efforts out of the way." Can't wait until Giuliani gets arrested as well (lol). (NY Post)

It all seems like some weird story out of a Mafia-esque criminal gang thriller movie. But even the Mafia were never that stupid! Can't wait til the movie comes out (lol). It will all be about 'following the money'...

Along with 3 court cases going against Trump today: immigration, the wall, as well as financial statements, the impeachment enquiry is going along very nicely and gaining momentum :)

[kittygrrl]

we have over 200 bills pending in the Senate. I am hoping fervently that somehow we win majority in the Senate and keep our majority in House...and have a new president that respects the office and the law.

[RockOn]

Yes that would be so refreshing to have one who respects the office and law!!!

Thanks for your post.
:)

[cathexis]

we have over 200 bills pending in the Senate. I am hoping fervently that somehow we win majority in the Senate and keep our majority in House...and have a new president that respects the office and the law.

What a wishful thing, happy ever after dream. There are times I certainly wish humankind deserved that kind of break from this pessimistic thinking cynic.

What do you intend to do with those 200+ pieces of stagnant legislation? Won't they expire prior to resolution.

[Orema]

How ‘White Guilt’ in the Age of Trump Shapes the Democratic Primary

The changing racial attitudes of white liberals are changing how 2020 candidates try to win votes.

https://i.postimg.cc/NjzrZdHk/merlin-162352584-c58b0b60-0a8e-413c-bd42-d23967409a9a-super-Jumbo.jpg
A crowd listening to Senator Kamala Harris in Ankeny, Iowa.
Credit: Daniel Acker for The New York Times

By Astead W. Herndon

ANKENY, Iowa — When Donald Trump was elected, John Olsen felt enraged by the racial tension that fueled his rise, the silence of his white neighbors and the stories of racial discrimination he heard from his nonwhite friends.

Black friends said they were followed around department stores, so Mr. Olsen, who is white, became a member of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. He thought that white Americans were scared of the country’s growing Latino population, so he joined the League of United Latin American Citizens. He now registers voters weekly, including with the League of Women Voters, to atone for his “white privilege,” he said.

“I try to have my bases covered,” said Mr. Olsen, 50, who wore a N.A.A.C.P. T-shirt to a campaign rally for Senator Kamala Harris here last week. “It just hurts my heart that white people are afraid of the country’s growing Hispanic population. And I just can’t allow that to continue.”

White liberals — voters like Mr. Olsen — are thinking more explicitly about race than they did even a decade ago, according to new research and polling. In one survey, an overwhelming majority said that racial discrimination affects the lives of black people. They embrace terms like “structural racism” and “white privilege.”

The shift in white liberal attitudes on race might be a permanent one, helped along by a changing media environment and heightened cultural sensitivity, or it could be a more fleeting reaction to the current polarized moment.

Either way, it means that in the Democratic primary, candidates have an incentive to talk to white voters explicitly about race — an incentive that is especially apparent now that a half-dozen Democrats are intensifying their campaigning in the key early states of Iowa and New Hampshire.

In Iowa last week, Ms. Harris delivered a revamped stump speech that seemed tailored to these changing attitudes. At an outdoor market in Ankeny, just outside Des Moines, she spoke to the fears some white voters might have about supporting a woman of color. In her pitch, she cast herself as an embodiment of racial progress.

“People are asking, ‘Oh, I don’t know, is America ready for that? Are they ready for a woman of color to be elected president of the United States?’” Ms. Harris told the crowd.

“Look, it’s not a new conversation for me. In fact, it’s a conversation that’s come up every single time in every election that I have — and here’s the operative word — won,” she said. Her largely white audience liked the pitch, responding with rapt silence and then with raucous applause when she talked candidly about her own accomplishments.

For years, prospective Democratic nominees came to Iowa to talk ethanol and pork subsidies and saved any rhetoric about the injustice of racial profiling for crowds in South Carolina and Nevada — the only early voting states where black and Latino voters made up a significant portion of the Democratic electorate.

But in the era of Mr. Trump, and after social movements such as Black Lives Matter pushed racial inequality to the forefront of national politics, it’s white Democrats in Iowa and New Hampshire — not black ones in South Carolina — who, to this point, are embracing the candidates who promise to upend society in the name of racial equity.

Former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. has held a commanding lead in national polls with nonwhite Democrats, but surveys show that white liberals in Iowa and New Hampshire are less inclined to support him. At events for Mr. Biden, some white voters cite his confounding September debate answer on the legacy of slavery and previous Senate work with segregationists as reasons to support other candidates.

At events for Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, and Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Ind. — two white candidates who have particularly excelled with college-educated liberals — supporters pointed to policies addressing racial inequalities as part of the candidates’ appeal.

These policies may give cover to those seeking to support a white candidate in a historically diverse Democratic field, which includes Ms. Harris, Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, and former cabinet secretary Julián Castro — candidates who are themselves racial minorities and who are struggling to gain traction in the polls.

“My daughter is marrying an Asian man and diversity has become very important to me,” said Julie Neff, a 57-year-old Iowa Democrat who attended the Harris rally. Ms. Neff, who is white, said she was embarrassed that she started thinking about race and discrimination only later in life.

“I should’ve been paying attention to this stuff sooner. But when Trump is making these decisions, I just realized it would be bad for my son-in-law and my grandchildren,” she said.

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9fNc1k2/merlin-162352554-413c2a92-4a2b-4b5c-a64a-42bf9a13472f-super-Jumbo.jpg
Ms. Harris cast herself as racial progress personified at an event in Ankeny, Iowa, on Monday.
Credit: Daniel Acker for The New York Times

According to research by Zach Goldberg, a Georgia State University doctoral student, the attitudes of white liberals like Ms. Neff have moved dramatically in a short time.

In 2010, about 40 percent of white liberals said “blacks who can’t get ahead in this country are mostly responsible for their own condition.” Now, that number has dropped to 24 percent, and more than 70 percent of white liberals say “racial discrimination is the main reason why many black people can’t get ahead these days.”

Mr. Goldberg said he believed that Mr. Trump’s election combined with a digital media environment where race has been covered more explicitly have pushed white liberals into adopting new positions.

“Before, if a black person was shot by police you could read about it in a newspaper, now you see a video,” Mr. Goldberg said. “A video is morally evocative and that has effect on the moral psychology of liberals."

The result, Mr. Goldberg said, is that white liberals want “to be the exact opposite of racist. They go adopt positions to prove they’re different than the morally tainted collective.”

But this is not a strategy without risk, Mr. Goldberg noted. Voters in a general election, including Republicans and independents, do not share the liberal views about race that white Democrats do. Positions that some leading Democrats have embraced, including reparations for black Americans, could become liabilities.

“When you think about it, this is why blacks may be supporting Biden the way they do,” Mr. Goldberg said. “They know this may not sell to the rest of white America come general election time.”

In the early days of Ms. Warren’s candidacy, the differences among Democratic primary voters were most clear when she discussed low black homeownership rates — a standard portion of her policy-heavy stump speech. Black audiences in Mississippi and Alabama often seemed unmoved, already well aware of the problem Ms. Warren outlined. In Iowa, predominantly white groups reacted dramatically — often with oohs and ahhs and the occasional applause.

At events for Ms. Harris last week, several white voters said that the president’s reliance on white identity politics to motivate his conservative base had forced them to reorganize their own voting priorities.

Ms. Neff’s husband, Bill, wore a Black Lives Matter T-shirt to the evening rally.

“We had Obama and we thought this racial stuff was over — and then we went backward,” he said. “We’ve seen so many old white guys who are O.K. with the status quo, and that’s not O.K. anymore.”

People like the Neffs and Mr. Olsen could have an outsize effect on the 2020 primary, and the Democratic Party going forward. The largely white voters in the earliest nominating contests in Iowa and New Hampshire determine which candidates appear viable by the time people in more diverse states head to the voting booth.

Barack Obama famously exploited this playbook in 2008, winning white liberals in Iowa before unlocking his support among black voters. This year’s most prominent black candidates — Mr. Booker and Ms. Harris — are both seeking to repeat that strategy, and have staked their candidacies on a good showing with those same white liberals in the first-in-the-nation caucus.

https://i.postimg.cc/wTV6t3xt/merlin-162444024-9c0bb6c8-6a6a-45ba-bf94-c337a6571d2a-super-Jumbo.jpg
People were eager to ask former Vvice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. questions during an event in Manchester, N.H., on Wednesday.
Credit: Elizabeth Frantz for The New York Times

But the candidate most affected by the attitude shift among white liberals may be Mr. Biden. He has crafted his campaign pitch around replacing Mr. Trump with a steady hand, and in his campaign announcement video featured the president’s waffling response to the racist and anti-Semitic marchers in Charlottesville, Va.,.

Mr. Biden enjoys a significant advantage among black voters, fueled by their pragmatic desire to see Mr. Trump replaced and good feelings carried over from his time as Mr. Obama’s vice president. For white liberal voters, though, the affection for Mr. Biden is not as firm.

Martha Wasmund, 64, said at the Harris event in Ankeny that she preferred the California senator, and was rejecting Mr. Biden’s candidacy because of the fond way he recalled working with segregationist lawmakers. Ms. Wasmund is white.

“That good ol’ boy network doesn’t work,” she said, referring to Mr. Biden’s legislative work with avowed racists in the 1970s and 1980s.

Janelle Turner, 50, brought her 12-year-old daughter to Ms. Harris’s rally. She is white and said she’s seen a change in Democrats in her majority-white community.

“People have realized that this stuff is important and that Trump has made racial division greater,” Ms. Turner said. “I’m a breast cancer survivor and health care is a huge issue for me, but this stuff is too.”

Some black voters see privilege in such responses. Dacia Randolph, a 43-year-old in Reno, Nev., said black voters are sticking with Mr. Biden not because they are unaware of his past, but because they see defeating Mr. Trump as an urgent priority.

She called Mr. Biden a “safe bet,” pointing to polls that show him ahead of Mr. Trump in the general election and the surprising results of the 2016 election.

“Black people go with who we trust,” Ms. Randolph said. “We make people prove themselves.”

Astead W. Herndon is a national political reporter based in New York. He was previously a Washington-based political reporter and a City Hall reporter for The Boston Globe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/politics/democratic-candidates-racism.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[dark_crystal]

I used to get really indignant about Republican hypocrisy and be all...

"how can they say lgbt discrimination is about religious freedom when there are religions who don't support lgbt discrimination?"

"how can they say they want low taxes when they force the military to pay for aircraft they already said they don't want or need?"

"How can they claim to want law and order and then protect law-breaking politicians?"

"how can they say they want traditional values when they are all divorced?"

"how can they say they are pro-life when they block laws that would save lives?"

"How can they say they are pro-2nd amendment and not be furious about the murder of Philando Castile?"

My head would explode!

But now i understand that you can't listen to what they say they want. They claim whatever they have to in order to make a plausible cover story, all they actually want is white supremacy.

"Conservatives" do not want to "conserve" traditional values, what they want to "conserve" is traditional hierarchies.

They don't want to save babies, they want to stop feminists. They don't want safe streets, they want jailed minorities. They don't want low taxes, they want to starve poor people, they don't want religious freedom, they want theocracy.

Every policy they promote is designed to make sure the people on top get to stay on top. Rhetoric has no meaning to them because the text is always subtext.

We keep trying to argue from the text and it has no effect because they are all in on this secret.

We point out glaring contradictions and they just roll their eyes. That's not because they are stubborn or stupid, it's because words don't matter to them. There's an inside joke only they get and it's that they all know their official rhetoric is just a series of cover stories and the real goal is (well, was) never spoken aloud.

For the record, they think we are also doing this. They say our policies of social justice are actually a secret agenda to destroy the church, get free stuff, and punish white folks.

[CherylNYC]

How ‘White Guilt’ in the Age of Trump Shapes the Democratic Primary

The changing racial attitudes of white liberals are changing how 2020 candidates try to win votes.

https://i.postimg.cc/NjzrZdHk/merlin-162352584-c58b0b60-0a8e-413c-bd42-d23967409a9a-super-Jumbo.jpg
A crowd listening to Senator Kamala Harris in Ankeny, Iowa.
Credit: Daniel Acker for The New York Times

By Astead W. Herndon

ANKENY, Iowa — When Donald Trump was elected, John Olsen felt enraged by the racial tension that fueled his rise, the silence of his white neighbors and the stories of racial discrimination he heard from his nonwhite friends.

Black friends said they were followed around department stores, so Mr. Olsen, who is white, became a member of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. He thought that white Americans were scared of the country’s growing Latino population, so he joined the League of United Latin American Citizens. He now registers voters weekly, including with the League of Women Voters, to atone for his “white privilege,” he said.

“I try to have my bases covered,” said Mr. Olsen, 50, who wore a N.A.A.C.P. T-shirt to a campaign rally for Senator Kamala Harris here last week. “It just hurts my heart that white people are afraid of the country’s growing Hispanic population. And I just can’t allow that to continue.”

White liberals — voters like Mr. Olsen — are thinking more explicitly about race than they did even a decade ago, according to new research and polling. In one survey, an overwhelming majority said that racial discrimination affects the lives of black people. They embrace terms like “structural racism” and “white privilege.”

The shift in white liberal attitudes on race might be a permanent one, helped along by a changing media environment and heightened cultural sensitivity, or it could be a more fleeting reaction to the current polarized moment.

Either way, it means that in the Democratic primary, candidates have an incentive to talk to white voters explicitly about race — an incentive that is especially apparent now that a half-dozen Democrats are intensifying their campaigning in the key early states of Iowa and New Hampshire.

In Iowa last week, Ms. Harris delivered a revamped stump speech that seemed tailored to these changing attitudes. At an outdoor market in Ankeny, just outside Des Moines, she spoke to the fears some white voters might have about supporting a woman of color. In her pitch, she cast herself as an embodiment of racial progress.

“People are asking, ‘Oh, I don’t know, is America ready for that? Are they ready for a woman of color to be elected president of the United States?’” Ms. Harris told the crowd.

“Look, it’s not a new conversation for me. In fact, it’s a conversation that’s come up every single time in every election that I have — and here’s the operative word — won,” she said. Her largely white audience liked the pitch, responding with rapt silence and then with raucous applause when she talked candidly about her own accomplishments.

For years, prospective Democratic nominees came to Iowa to talk ethanol and pork subsidies and saved any rhetoric about the injustice of racial profiling for crowds in South Carolina and Nevada — the only early voting states where black and Latino voters made up a significant portion of the Democratic electorate.

But in the era of Mr. Trump, and after social movements such as Black Lives Matter pushed racial inequality to the forefront of national politics, it’s white Democrats in Iowa and New Hampshire — not black ones in South Carolina — who, to this point, are embracing the candidates who promise to upend society in the name of racial equity.

Former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. has held a commanding lead in national polls with nonwhite Democrats, but surveys show that white liberals in Iowa and New Hampshire are less inclined to support him. At events for Mr. Biden, some white voters cite his confounding September debate answer on the legacy of slavery and previous Senate work with segregationists as reasons to support other candidates.

At events for Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, and Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Ind. — two white candidates who have particularly excelled with college-educated liberals — supporters pointed to policies addressing racial inequalities as part of the candidates’ appeal.

These policies may give cover to those seeking to support a white candidate in a historically diverse Democratic field, which includes Ms. Harris, Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, and former cabinet secretary Julián Castro — candidates who are themselves racial minorities and who are struggling to gain traction in the polls.

“My daughter is marrying an Asian man and diversity has become very important to me,” said Julie Neff, a 57-year-old Iowa Democrat who attended the Harris rally. Ms. Neff, who is white, said she was embarrassed that she started thinking about race and discrimination only later in life.

“I should’ve been paying attention to this stuff sooner. But when Trump is making these decisions, I just realized it would be bad for my son-in-law and my grandchildren,” she said.

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9fNc1k2/merlin-162352554-413c2a92-4a2b-4b5c-a64a-42bf9a13472f-super-Jumbo.jpg
Ms. Harris cast herself as racial progress personified at an event in Ankeny, Iowa, on Monday.
Credit: Daniel Acker for The New York Times

According to research by Zach Goldberg, a Georgia State University doctoral student, the attitudes of white liberals like Ms. Neff have moved dramatically in a short time.

In 2010, about 40 percent of white liberals said “blacks who can’t get ahead in this country are mostly responsible for their own condition.” Now, that number has dropped to 24 percent, and more than 70 percent of white liberals say “racial discrimination is the main reason why many black people can’t get ahead these days.”

Mr. Goldberg said he believed that Mr. Trump’s election combined with a digital media environment where race has been covered more explicitly have pushed white liberals into adopting new positions.

“Before, if a black person was shot by police you could read about it in a newspaper, now you see a video,” Mr. Goldberg said. “A video is morally evocative and that has effect on the moral psychology of liberals."

The result, Mr. Goldberg said, is that white liberals want “to be the exact opposite of racist. They go adopt positions to prove they’re different than the morally tainted collective.”

But this is not a strategy without risk, Mr. Goldberg noted. Voters in a general election, including Republicans and independents, do not share the liberal views about race that white Democrats do. Positions that some leading Democrats have embraced, including reparations for black Americans, could become liabilities.

“When you think about it, this is why blacks may be supporting Biden the way they do,” Mr. Goldberg said. “They know this may not sell to the rest of white America come general election time.”

In the early days of Ms. Warren’s candidacy, the differences among Democratic primary voters were most clear when she discussed low black homeownership rates — a standard portion of her policy-heavy stump speech. Black audiences in Mississippi and Alabama often seemed unmoved, already well aware of the problem Ms. Warren outlined. In Iowa, predominantly white groups reacted dramatically — often with oohs and ahhs and the occasional applause.

At events for Ms. Harris last week, several white voters said that the president’s reliance on white identity politics to motivate his conservative base had forced them to reorganize their own voting priorities.

Ms. Neff’s husband, Bill, wore a Black Lives Matter T-shirt to the evening rally.

“We had Obama and we thought this racial stuff was over — and then we went backward,” he said. “We’ve seen so many old white guys who are O.K. with the status quo, and that’s not O.K. anymore.”

People like the Neffs and Mr. Olsen could have an outsize effect on the 2020 primary, and the Democratic Party going forward. The largely white voters in the earliest nominating contests in Iowa and New Hampshire determine which candidates appear viable by the time people in more diverse states head to the voting booth.

Barack Obama famously exploited this playbook in 2008, winning white liberals in Iowa before unlocking his support among black voters. This year’s most prominent black candidates — Mr. Booker and Ms. Harris — are both seeking to repeat that strategy, and have staked their candidacies on a good showing with those same white liberals in the first-in-the-nation caucus.

https://i.postimg.cc/wTV6t3xt/merlin-162444024-9c0bb6c8-6a6a-45ba-bf94-c337a6571d2a-super-Jumbo.jpg
People were eager to ask former Vvice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. questions during an event in Manchester, N.H., on Wednesday.
Credit: Elizabeth Frantz for The New York Times

But the candidate most affected by the attitude shift among white liberals may be Mr. Biden. He has crafted his campaign pitch around replacing Mr. Trump with a steady hand, and in his campaign announcement video featured the president’s waffling response to the racist and anti-Semitic marchers in Charlottesville, Va.,.

Mr. Biden enjoys a significant advantage among black voters, fueled by their pragmatic desire to see Mr. Trump replaced and good feelings carried over from his time as Mr. Obama’s vice president. For white liberal voters, though, the affection for Mr. Biden is not as firm.

Martha Wasmund, 64, said at the Harris event in Ankeny that she preferred the California senator, and was rejecting Mr. Biden’s candidacy because of the fond way he recalled working with segregationist lawmakers. Ms. Wasmund is white.

“That good ol’ boy network doesn’t work,” she said, referring to Mr. Biden’s legislative work with avowed racists in the 1970s and 1980s.

Janelle Turner, 50, brought her 12-year-old daughter to Ms. Harris’s rally. She is white and said she’s seen a change in Democrats in her majority-white community.

“People have realized that this stuff is important and that Trump has made racial division greater,” Ms. Turner said. “I’m a breast cancer survivor and health care is a huge issue for me, but this stuff is too.”

Some black voters see privilege in such responses. Dacia Randolph, a 43-year-old in Reno, Nev., said black voters are sticking with Mr. Biden not because they are unaware of his past, but because they see defeating Mr. Trump as an urgent priority.

She called Mr. Biden a “safe bet,” pointing to polls that show him ahead of Mr. Trump in the general election and the surprising results of the 2016 election.

“Black people go with who we trust,” Ms. Randolph said. “We make people prove themselves.”

Astead W. Herndon is a national political reporter based in New York. He was previously a Washington-based political reporter and a City Hall reporter for The Boston Globe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/politics/democratic-candidates-racism.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Oh, MAN! Where can we even begin to deconstruct this mess? White people can't be legitimately concerned with racial justice, we can only be victims of white guilt? We can't work towards equality because it's the right thing to do, but because we're trying to "atone (for our) white privilege"?? We're so guilty that we're willing to "upend society" by voting for a person of color?!! Soooo, I was kinda sad about it, but I noticed that Barack Obama was President for eight years and society didn't 'upend'. Not even a little.

This reporter cynically paints anti-racist sentiment amongst white people as an unsophisticated strategy and as a reactive stance, not as a legitimate point of view. Gah!

[Orema]

Oh, MAN! Where can we even begin to deconstruct this mess? White people can't be legitimately concerned with racial justice, we can only be victims of white guilt? We can't work towards equality because it's the right thing to do, but because we're trying to "atone (for our) white privilege"?? We're so guilty that we're willing to "upend society" by voting for a person of color?!! Soooo, I was kinda sad about it, but I noticed that Barack Obama was President for eight years and society didn't 'upend'. Not even a little.

This reporter cynically paints anti-racist sentiment amongst white people as an unsophisticated strategy and as a reactive stance, not as a legitimate point of view. Gah!

It is a reactive stance for some white people who are now interested in fighting racism. Not because its the right thing to do, but because now it affects them. And that's how change is usually made—as a reactionary measure against something that is touching someone's life.

This isn't an indictment against white people, especially not anti-racists—it's an examination on how SOME liberal voters in Iowa are changing their views on race and as a result, the politicians are changing how the speak with those voters.

[C0LLETTE]

Does anyone know the positions of the individual presidential Democratic candidates on the American withdrawal from the Syrian/Turkish border?

[CherylNYC]

It is a reactive stance for some white people who are now interested in fighting racism. Not because its the right thing to do, but because now it affects them. And that's how change is usually made—as a reactionary measure against something that is touching someone's life.

This isn't an indictment against white people, especially not anti-racists—it's an examination on how SOME liberal voters in Iowa are changing their views on race and as a result, the politicians are changing how the speak with those voters.

Yes, I agree that some people won't care about justice until injustice touches them personally. That's a universal truth, but the writer seems to think anti-racism activism is slightly ridiculous. He doesn't write about 'some' liberals. He generalizes about liberals. Period. He specifically claims that the entire Democratic party is being pushed to a reactive stance by liberal white guilt. The thing that gives his bias away is that he doesn't ever mention the possibility that people who are not black might be interested in racial justice because it's simply the right thing to do. Only that they're feeling guilty and/or that it's a new strategy.

I think the headline sets the tone. Mildly derisive. Scare quotes around 'White Guilt'. The tone of the rest of article doesn't get any better. I get upset about this sort of thing because it's so important. The faint whiff of ridicule will turn a person sour.

[kittygrrl]

i think doing the right thing means different things depending on who you are and your experience..frankly i don't give a damn why someone changes their view on the harm racism causes..as long as they change..i'm happy..it's a beginning

[Orema]

Yes, I agree that some people won't care about justice until injustice touches them personally. That's a universal truth, but the writer seems to think anti-racism activism is slightly ridiculous. He doesn't write about 'some' liberals. He generalizes about liberals. Period. He specifically claims that the entire Democratic party is being pushed to a reactive stance by liberal white guilt. The thing that gives his bias away is that he doesn't ever mention the possibility that people who are not black might be interested in racial justice because it's simply the right thing to do. Only that they're feeling guilty and/or that it's a new strategy.

I think the headline sets the tone. Mildly derisive. Scare quotes around 'White Guilt'. The tone of the rest of article doesn't get any better. I get upset about this sort of thing because it's so important. The faint whiff of ridicule will turn a person sour.

I think you're reading more into this than there is. He writes about (all) White liberals having stronger attitudes on race than ever before, but that's not assigning guilt to all White anti-racists. His stance on changing attitudes explains why candidates are discussing race as never before—they are forced to (thank goodness) because of those changing attitudes. This is the crux of the article.

I found all of his points valid and felt no sense of ridicule nor intentional derisiveness.

We will continue to disagree on this.

[Martina]

So, if you had to choose between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, which one would get your vote and why?

[Kätzchen]

I am leaving room in my mind so I can make an decision later about who will get my vote. Bottom line: I'm voting for any democrat on the ticket. No matter who is endorsed by the Democrats for President.

Super proud of US Diplomat's overseeing Ukraine affairs, who have spoke out about the latest fiasco caused by you-know-who.

I have no idea how dirty and down right ugly it will get with removing that monster from the WH, but I'm sure it will be as ugly and dirty as it could possibly be because that's how controlling, manipulative, and pathologically disturbed personalities seem to operate. They never leave quietly. They have no conscience and are unable to care about anything. Which is sad and heartbreaking.

All I know is I am so grateful for those who DO have a conscience and remain committed to upholding democracy for the sake of everyone in our country. Their efforts are beyond heroic and I do not take their vigilance and tireless efforts for granted.

[CherylNYC]

So, if you had to choose between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, which one would get your vote and why?

I'm for Warren. She worked hard to generate sophisticated, viable plans, and she gets better and better at campaigning. I prefer Buttigeig's health plan- 'Medicare for All Who Want It', to Warren and Sanders's 'Medicare For All', but I doubt any of them will be able to shepherd either of those plans through the legislature. Otherwise I like everything about Warren. I think she's going to win the nomination, too.

That said, I agree with Katzchen. I'm voting for the Democrat, even if it's Biden.

[dark_crystal]

So, if you had to choose between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, which one would get your vote and why?

Warren. I started out liking Pete but as a candidate he seems a little Manchurian to me now

[charley]

So, if you had to choose between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, which one would get your vote and why?

Warren was the only one who got my attention, and who I actually watched attentively in the debate. I don't trust any of the men (ditto in Canadian politics). [P.S.: Jody Wilson-Raybould - the Canadian Attorney-General and justice minister who lost her job in the majority Liberal govt because of the SNC-Lavalin scandal and Trudeau's lack of integrity, ran as an Independent in B.C., and won! :) ] As a Canadian, obviously, I can't vote. But as a member of this site, am only throwing in my 2 cents.

[~ocean]

we need to physically remove Trump ~ the republicans looked like school yard fools w/ their activity today ~ desperate actions ~ we are even more divided the longer Trump is left in office ~ now I know why some ctry's throw shoes lol DUCK TRUMP incoming !!!

[cathexis]

So, if you had to choose between Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg, which one would get your vote and why?

Warren has the experience necessary for representing the US in the International arena. Her healthcare model is one of the better among the candidates. Buttigieg may improve with more experience, but he is a little too religious and conservative.
Like many others here, I will vote for any of the Democrats. Would rather vote third party Socialist, but will not waste my vote risking Trump remaining in office. I would vote for a lemur if it would get Trump OUT.

[Martina]

Well, Beto is gone. From The Guardian, discussing reasons the campaign failed:

O’Rourke came up against a younger, smarter version of himself: Pete Buttigieg, the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend, Indiana, a military veteran who spoke more fluently, offered crisper policy prescriptions and stole O’Rourke’s thunder – as well as many of his potential voters.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/01/beto-o-rourke-us-election-2020-democrats

[dark_crystal]

Texas Democratic Primary (3/3/2020) Polling as of 9/15/2019

Biden
28%
O'Rourke
19%
Sanders
17%
Warren
11%
Booker
6%
Harris
6%
Castro
4%
Buttigieg
4%

It will be VERY interesting to see who benefits most from Beto quitting. It could be Buttigieg! He's doing better nationally than he has any right to be :superfunny:

Also I think a whole bunch of them are about to quit.

[Kätzchen]

I rarely watch TV, but I am sitting at a family member's home this morning, watching a GOP controlled local TV station, whose anchor is interviewing someone who the majority of GOP viewers view as a credible source of information. *PUKE*

They're talking about how Walden (R-Oregon) is stepping down from his twenty year tenure of reigning on the Oregon House Committee for Power/Energy/Utilities. I'm glad he is stepping down for a multitude of reasons, one of which he is in cahoots with Berkshire/Hathaway's Warren Buffett who is a gazillionaire of extraordinary means, and most likely has steered policy in favor of Buffett for years and years.

All this to say, is that I am worried sick over who Republicans will help elect another puppet to take Walden's place. It's a complication in Oregon politics because Oregon, with the exception of the 'Pale Blue Dot', is a bonafide "RED" state.

The GOP is not the GOP of the Eisenhower years … or maybe the GOP has been that way all along and it's only now, nearly after 50 years of my life, that I truly am able to see how sick the GOP actually is and has been, all along.

I'm grateful we have Gov Kate Brown (DEM) in office still, but when it's time to elect an governor in two years or so, it's worrisome to me the problematic issues that still dominate Oregon politics (Labor issues, Tax issues, Corporate Raider issues, Toxic members of the GOP who pass policy that is harmful to residents of Oregon, etc).

I actually saw an article online at CNN about how you-know-who is forecast to win the Presidential election in 2020.

I was like: When will people rise to say, NO F^CKING WAY?

Now that I am in a better work situation, I plan to devote as much free time I have on weekends, to help network in face-to-face situations to help people understand how important it is, to not let the GOP or that monster in the WH have any access at all to any seat of power in the US.

We, the general we, in my estimation, are sitting at an all time high of major change that will impact people for generations to come.

Will people elect a dictator to power again, or will people wake the fuck up and elect a person from the Democratic party to help usher in and promote social order, rather than the daily tide of toxic lies and social harm?

I won't stand by and watch our country go down in flames.

12 months from today. Make it count. Vote BLUE.

[Martina]

Everybody's all nervous about the swing states, but this week seems to indicate that Democrats are getting back the suburbs and the Obama/Trump voters. If so, that means Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan return to blue. Trump could still win. And he does have the cheating Republican party and the Kremlin working for him. I've been playing with an electoral college map, and my best predictions make it all come down to Colorado for a seven electoral vote victory for whoever wins it. Our future in the hands of Colorado? Well, they went blue in 2016, so maybe we are ok.

[Martina]

So, Bloomberg. What do you think?

[dark_crystal]

So, Bloomberg. What do you think?

I think he saw Biden flailing and decided he needed to put on his capitalist cape and swoop in to save us from Bernie/Warren

[Martina]

Mayor Pete's moving on up.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/11/12/politics/iowa-monmouth-poll-november/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

[Martina]

Warren dropped by half. It's either her Medicare plan, which supports those a who think centrist policies will prevail, or just Mayor Pete doing better at her expense. Biden is still on top. Biden looks frail, and Pete is pretty cool. But if it's all about winning the general election, and you had to choose between those two, Biden would be the better bet. But Sanders is still number two, and polls show him doing better against Trump than Biden would. And he held his own in the same poll so I don't think this is a reaction to Medicare for all. Pete's just kicking ass out there.

[charley]

Warren dropped by half. It's either her Medicare plan, which supports those a who think centrist policies will prevail, or just Mayor Pete doing better at her expense. Biden is still on top. Biden looks frail, and Pete is pretty cool. But if it's all about winning the general election, and you had to choose between those two, Biden would be the better bet. But Sanders is still number two, and polls show him doing better against Trump than Biden would. And he held his own in the same poll so I don't think this is a reaction to Medicare for all. Pete's just kicking ass out there.

My original thought was that Warren was doing well until she announced her policy - that is, eliminating choice for health care, and how she would finance it. That just won't wash for a large majority of Americans. After keeping an eye on polls and watching news, it still seems that that is the case. I wonder if it is possible now for Warren to backtrack and change her mind on that. It just seems so strange to me that these candidates seem to be entirely locked in their positions. Doesn't anyone talk to them and advise them that they might lose 'cause they won't budge on their positions? I mean, doesn't anyone worry enough that Trump might win a second term, unless some candidate rises to the top against him that is willing to understand that most Americans who vote Democrat have a moderate bent?

Pete is doing well 'cause of his "centrist"/moderate viewpoint and this appeals to many Americans, and this is also why Biden is still ahead in the polls (I still don't trust Pete).

[JDeere]

All I have to say is that I hope to hell people vote no matter who they vote for, I am seeing a huge downfall of young folks not voting even some older folks as well.

I dont know if they dont get that its a right they have to vote or they dont truly care.

[Kätzchen]

That was a pretty amazing Op-Ed over on CNN about Nancy Pelosi: If she ran for President, She'd Beat T---p. (https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/11/opinions/nancy-pelosi-banner-year-gergen-piltch/index.html)


And I would most certainly vote for her too.


Anybody else sick of seeing or hearing about or learning about the latest dastardly game-plan by McConnell and Graham, et al? :firetruck:


Go Team Pelosi, Team Schiff and Team Nadler. RIP Team Cummings (my heart is still broken over the loss of REP Cummings (D).

Nothing could make me happier than for long standing GOP senators to lose their long held seats of in the US Senate. That and Democrats winning in a landslide for President and in the US Senate and maintaining the US House of Representatives. That would make the year 2020 the best gift to the world, ever. Please oh Please, that's my wish for next year. :praying::praying::praying:

[homoe]

Republican Sen. Susan Collins has a well-funded Democrat prepping to challenge her next year. She has national women’s groups ready to attack her over her vote for Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh. And she’s a moderate facing an electorate that increasingly prioritizes purity. Still, the four-term Maine senator’s biggest hurdle to re-election may be the president of her own party.

President Trump’s potential impeachment in the House and subsequent trial in the Senate presents a distinct dilemma for Collins. Of the handful of Republicans senators facing re-election next year, she has done perhaps the most to keep a clear distance from Trump.

https://www.pressherald.com/2019/11/17/trump-may-be-maine-sen-susan-collins-biggest-re-election-hurdle/

[homoe]

Republican Sen. Susan Collins has a well-funded Democrat prepping to challenge her next year. She has national women’s groups ready to attack her over her vote for Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh. And she’s a moderate facing an electorate that increasingly prioritizes purity. Still, the four-term Maine senator’s biggest hurdle to re-election may be the president of her own party.

President Trump’s potential impeachment in the House and subsequent trial in the Senate presents a distinct dilemma for Collins. Of the handful of Republicans senators facing re-election next year, she has done perhaps the most to keep a clear distance from Trump.

https://www.pressherald.com/2019/11/17/trump-may-be-maine-sen-susan-collins-biggest-re-election-hurdle/

23oUllqYuno

Clearly her word is worthless! She's served four-term already!

[dark_crystal]

My original thought was that Warren was doing well until she announced her policy - that is, eliminating choice for health care, and how she would finance it. That just won't wash for a large majority of Americans. After keeping an eye on polls and watching news, it still seems that that is the case. I wonder if it is possible now for Warren to backtrack and change her mind on that. It just seems so strange to me that these candidates seem to be entirely locked in their positions. Doesn't anyone talk to them and advise them that they might lose 'cause they won't budge on their positions? I mean, doesn't anyone worry enough that Trump might win a second term, unless some candidate rises to the top against him that is willing to understand that most Americans who vote Democrat have a moderate bent?

Pete is doing well 'cause of his "centrist"/moderate viewpoint and this appeals to many Americans, and this is also why Biden is still ahead in the polls (I still don't trust Pete).

Warren lost me with her waffling on Medicare for All. I switched my monthly donation from her to Castro. At this point i am only donating to Castro and Sanders.

[C0LLETTE]

Anybody remember George McGovern?

"In the general election on November 7, 1972, the McGovern–Shriver ticket suffered a 61 percent to 37 percent defeat to Nixon – at the time, the second biggest landslide in American history, with an Electoral College total of 520 to 17. McGovern's two electoral vote victories came in Massachusetts and the District of Columbia, and he failed to win his home state of South Dakota Over the nation as a whole he carried a mere 135 counties. At just over four percent of the nation's counties, McGovern's county wins remain the fewest by almost a factor of three for any major-party nominee." (Thanks Wikipedia).

Nixon won.

I'm sure there are still some Democrats around who remember that idealistic disaster.

[homoe]

Anybody remember George McGovern?

"In the general election on November 7, 1972, the McGovern–Shriver ticket suffered a 61 percent to 37 percent defeat to Nixon – at the time, the second biggest landslide in American history, with an Electoral College total of 520 to 17. McGovern's two electoral vote victories came in Massachusetts and the District of Columbia, and he failed to win his home state of South Dakota Over the nation as a whole he carried a mere 135 counties. At just over four percent of the nation's counties, McGovern's county wins remain the fewest by almost a factor of three for any major-party nominee." (Thanks Wikipedia).

Nixon won.

I'm sure there are still some Democrats around who remember that idealistic disaster.

Indeed, I am old enough to remember this!

[C0LLETTE]

ok then, homoe...lol

Then you also probably appreciate the perils of being too far ahead of the electorate. They don't seem to favour fascists or socialists but if that's the only choice they are less scared of fascists...and they are easier to salute so you can show your loyalty and stay "safe".

[nhplowboi]

Am I just a suspicious sort? Does anyone else think it is odd or just me that BOTH the app failed to work at the Iowa Caucus and THEN the help phone line would not answer? Seems like both those things needed to run the Caucus could easily be breached by anyone with a little knowledge. Also how is it Donald has his highest poll rating after his actions caused the downing of an airliner with all lives lost and serious injury to 64 soldiers in Iraq?!

[nhplowboi]

Also I was kind of neutral on Bernie until I went looking around to see what he is about. If what I read is to be believed, he actually sounds like a clone of Trump but reversed and liberal ie give money away in general vs give money away to your rich friends. Hearing Bernie's first serious job wasn't until the age of 40 means I am not interested in seeing this man run our country.

[~ocean]

Also I was kind of neutral on Bernie until I went looking around to see what he is about. If what I read is to be believed, he actually sounds like a clone of Trump but reversed and liberal ie give money away in general vs give money away to your rich friends. Hearing Bernie's first serious job wasn't until the age of 40 means I am not interested in seeing this man run our country.

^5 NH I am not a fan of Sanders at all..... talks out both sides of his mouth on a few very imp. issues.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Am I just a suspicious sort? Does anyone else think it is odd or just me that BOTH the app failed to work at the Iowa Caucus and THEN the help phone line would not answer? Seems like both those things needed to run the Caucus could easily be breached by anyone with a little knowledge. . .

I heard on NPR that the Democratic party paid $68,000 to the company (Shadow - something) to create the app. This small amount leads me to believe that it was probably written by some computer geek working out of their garage, and the (Shadow - something) company is probably just one or two people - hence, that's why nobody could get through on the phone line.

You get what you pay for.

[dark_crystal]

I...sincerely cannot believe this caucus debacle. This was NOT the year to try anything fancy or new, like a f*cking app when the plain ol POTS telephone has always worked fine and there was never a primary that needed to be cleaner than this one.

I...am starting to believe the Bernie bros were right and the primary was rigged against him in 2016 and will be rigged against him this time, too.

At the very least i am starting to believe the Democrats are not serious, or that they are serious about helping Wall Street and the health insurance companies and only that.

They are not the opposition, they are the status quo's backup plan.

I gave Sanders an extra donation last night and put my local DSA on a recurring monthly donation.

I have liked Pete in the past and Warren as well, but i am not supporting a candidate who waffles on M4A or who caps student loan relief

[dark_crystal]

They are not afraid. They are capitalism's backup plan.

The Democrats as they currently exist are allowed to diverge from the Republicans only to the degree which leaves the flow of wealth intact. The flow can narrow within certain margins if it has to, but it cannot be redistributed.

(As much as i have ranted against the idea in other threads, I'm not obtuse, I know that this is what Chapo Traphouse is talking about when they call identity issues a distraction. It is true that there can be huge differences in how the two parties treat minorities without any real threat to most industries' profits.)

As long as social stratification is preserved, capital ultimately doesn't care about the identities inside those strata. The GOP sees that it's easiest and most profitable to just preserve traditional race and gender stratification, while the Democrats are able to look progressive in their willingness to let identities mix within strata, or to sacrifice a variably-sized slice of still-healthy profits to keep people in the lowest strata alive.

Capital does not want to accommodate this sacrifice, but it can easily survive it. The GOP way is more profitable, and therefore preferable, but if they should happen to go too far and fall from grace for awhile, their Democratic replacements will be tolerable. A backup plan.

The thing is, capitalism is not going to survive the things humans are going to have to do to survive on this planet. We keep trying to find ways around that by using tax credits to reward capital for certain sacrifices, but it was already too late for that in 2008.

We are going to fight capital every step of the way and at the end? When what's left of us are eking out our survival down in the caves or whatever?

It's going to be socialist as heck down there.

oh i see i am repeating myself

[~ocean]

Am I just a suspicious sort? Does anyone else think it is odd or just me that BOTH the app failed to work at the Iowa Caucus and THEN the help phone line would not answer? Seems like both those things needed to run the Caucus could easily be breached by anyone with a little knowledge. Also how is it Donald has his highest poll rating after his actions caused the downing of an airliner with all lives lost and serious injury to 64 soldiers in Iraq?!

NH myself and my family were all thinking the same as you ! The fact that Pelosi extended her hand to shake that greasy McDonalds limb showed respect. regardless of her personal feelings . The youth of today learned a lesson of ethics by Pelosi ~ BUT ^5 Nancy for "ripping " Trump a new ( insert imagination here ) lol I applauded her ending ~ American news reporters need to keep their personal opinions to them selves. Reporting the news is just that REPORTING ~ Maybe most should go back to school to become a journalist like most of their peers have ! They generalized Pelosi's actions as a democratic opinion ~ when her actions was what she felt ~ she owned that and like I said I applaud her reaction to Trumps lack of ethics once again. Now on to NH ~ let's see what tricks that tricky rabbitt has up his sleeve ~ not that anything else could fit up there ~ :shocking:

[dark_crystal]

It's time.

First concern: Elizabeth Breunig (WaPo Opinion pages) tweeted "everyone saying 'coordinated attack from Bernieland [on Beto]' better be able to put their money where their mouth is" in response to a dude claiming people "view Beto as a threat to Sanders 2020 prospects."

I voted for both of them and i am not trying to discuss whether the claims of a coordinated attack are true or whether concerns about Beto's history and connections are valid...

i am asking "how do we not do this again?"

How do we not fracture in the face of fascism again?

If the answer is "the Dems have to not put up a capitalist/cop/warmonger again" what is the plan for when they inevitably do? When they put up Kamala Harris (cop), Eric Holder (cop), Joe Biden (warmonger, sexist).

Who is going to be the Jill Stein or the Green Party? Is there a DSA candidate?

I will start helping them now AND help Joe Ohnopleaseno Biden

Leading Bernie Bro: I’ll vote for no one else but Sanders
‘Chapo Trap House’ host sparks online ire for pledging to not vote if Sanders loses (https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/chapo-trap-house-bernie-sanders-2020-democrats/)
The hosts of the podcast Chapo Trap House are no strangers to sparking controversy online, given their anti-establishment tone and stridently left-wing takes.

But a post by host Will Menaker last night is drawing ire, where he pledged to refuse to vote for anyone but Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) in the 2020 election, should Sanders lose the nomination.

“I won’t vote for anyone but Bernie in the general, can’t say what the hundreds of thousands of people who listen to my show will do, but I’m only speaking for myself. Just something to consider,” he wrote on Twitter
There it is. My worst nightmare and the whole reason i started this thread the on day i did

BUT

i'm not going to spend any time crying about how shady this is. i'm going to spend my time begging and pleading for everyone to for god's sake just obey the loud white man. I am not even being satirical with that, i am fucking terrified

[Cin]

But a post by host Will Menaker last night is drawing ire, where he pledged to refuse to vote for anyone but Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) in the 2020 election, should Sanders lose the nomination.

“I won’t vote for anyone but Bernie in the general, can’t say what the hundreds of thousands of people who listen to my show will do, but I’m only speaking for myself. Just something to consider,” he wrote on Twitter[/INDENT][/I]
There it is. My worst nightmare and the whole reason i started this thread the on day i did

BUT

i'm not going to spend any time crying about how shady this is. i'm going to spend my time begging and pleading for everyone to for god's sake just obey the loud white man. I am not even being satirical with that, i am fucking terrified

Don't be terrified. Well, don't be terrified of that anyway. Bernie bros refusing to support the democratic candidate is not the reason the dems will lose the election. It's not the reason Trump won in 2016 and it's not the reason Trump will win again in 2020. Check out his approval ratings.They are the highest they have ever been and this is in the midst of an impeachment hearing. Lots of people love him. Bernie's supporters are not the reason we will have to bear another 4 years of this idiot. Bernie bros are not alone in cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Political groups across the spectrum have well documented tantrums when they don't get their way. I had hoped the DNC would find a candidate who has a chance to win this election and support him or her. But they have sold their souls to the devil (or maybe it's corporations hard to tell difference sometimes) and if the candidate they want can't win so be it. And they have the kind of power that Bernie supporters do not, check out how they have gummed up the works so far. We are supposed to believe what happened in Iowa was just one of those things. Better to appear incompetent than evil I guess. They are the real threat to throw this election. Be terrified of that.

[BullDog]

Ugh I shouldn't have looked. I am not going to be held hostage by the Bernie Bros. The last person on earth I would ever vote for in the Primaries is Bernie Sanders. If he wins the nomination, of course, I will be forced to vote for him and then brace for the landslide Chump victory.

I am sick and tired of Sanders and the toxic segment of his supporters (not all of his supporters) trying to destroy the Democratic party.

The conspiracy theories about the app really need to stop. Wishful thinking on my part. No one would manufacture this sheer incompetence.

I have voted in many places and the volunteers are almost always over the age of 70. So you are going to introduce a new app and not have enough phone support and have a ridiculous amount of math and complex rules to calculate the results and you think it's going to go fine?

Plus the rules were being violated right on TV - according to the rules, in the realignment people who were not originally viable weren't supposed to get to become viable on the second round. People were joining together to make someone viable. Way too complicated.

The Iowa Democratic party and DNC are to blame but there is no bloody conspiracy. Also, Sanders is the one that wanted the extra numbers reported - which complicated a ridiculous complicated process even further. He likes caucuses when he likes them and then when he doesn't he tries to turn them into a semi-primary. No matter what happens everyone is against him. Waaaa.

There is no bloody conspiracy. Knock it off. Sounds like Trumpers. If someone wanted to design an app for nefarious reasons they would claim it was working great and feed it bogus results - not tell everyone it was broken and have a paper trail.

Why does a little all-white state with a ridiculous caucus get to have so much sway on the primary process anyway, followed by another all-white small state with a primary? It sucks. NH can easily be mucked up by "independents" (Trumpers) voting in the primary to vote for whoever they think is least likely to beat Trump.

Trump can definitely be defeated but right now I don't see any good candidate that can. Beyond frustrating. It's definitely not Sanders.

God I should never have looked. Over and out.

[Cin]

God I should never have looked. Over and out.

I agree with you on this. I don't know what possessed me. Out of here.

[BullDog]

Well, according to Rachel Maddow, it looks like there may have been some Trumpsters jamming the phone lines in Iowa. So that might have actually been at least partly why people couldn't phone in their results.

To me, phoning in results doesn't seem super reliable either, but I guess that's how they have always done it before the new app. But results still don't appear to be totally right even though they are 100% in now - probably wouldn't affect the delegate counts. Get rid of the caucus.

I am annoyed at both Buttigieg and Sanders trying to declare they won. Buttigieg on the night of - with no results in - and then today Sanders trying to claim victory based on the popular vote from the first round - this is a caucus not a primary. Dudes you tied, quit being dishonest.

[Martina]

There it is. My worst nightmare and the whole reason i started this thread the on day i did



I don't think it's going to be an issue. The odds are currently strongly in favor of a Bernie nomination. If that's the way it turns out, I am going to soooo love saying, "Vote blue no matter who."

[dark_crystal]

Leading Bernie Bro: I’ll vote for no one else but Sanders
‘Chapo Trap House’ host sparks online ire for pledging to not vote if Sanders loses (https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/chapo-trap-house-bernie-sanders-2020-democrats/)
The hosts of the podcast Chapo Trap House are no strangers to sparking controversy online, given their anti-establishment tone and stridently left-wing takes.

But a post by host Will Menaker last night is drawing ire, where he pledged to refuse to vote for anyone but Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) in the 2020 election, should Sanders lose the nomination.

“I won’t vote for anyone but Bernie in the general, can’t say what the hundreds of thousands of people who listen to my show will do, but I’m only speaking for myself. Just something to consider,” he wrote on Twitter
There it is. My worst nightmare and the whole reason i started this thread the on day i did

BUT

i'm not going to spend any time crying about how shady this is. i'm going to spend my time begging and pleading for everyone to for god's sake just obey the loud white man. I am not even being satirical with that, i am fucking terrified

Will Menaker today:
If you support what I have been assured is the *same* agenda and would like to see Elizabeth Warren *somewhere* in the White House in 2021 and beyond, working for that agenda, you're best and only chance of that is voting Sanders and stopping Buttigieg RIGHT NOW. That it's.

Please, I beg of you, you can fucking own me into oblivion for all the churlish posts I've made about her and her campaign if you come through on this and help crush Buttigieg on Tuesday by coming over to Sanders.

Seriously, you can find all my old posts making fun of you and ram them down my fucking throat, quote RT them, do dog piles and coordinated harassment. Please, please prove once and for all that I am just a rich, privileged bro asshole and not right about you, this.

[Martina]

A lot of progressives are getting triggered by Iowa and Clinton's attacks. I have no interest in attacking Pete or Warren or Bloomberg even. I see more anti Pete stuff, but I don't think many Bernie supporters care. I think the DNC inspires more anger than any of the candidates.

[C0LLETTE]

Been reading about the DSA, seems it has fewer members than the Rotary Club.
When the shit hits the fan and being a "socialist" in America starts to have zero cachet and can actually get you hung and wont get you invited to a gallery opening...I'd bet on the Rotary.

The only Socialists I respect are the ones that live it and have lived it for years and will still be living it when it's no longer de rigueur to drink Manhattans, , Negronis, and hoist a Mimosa to Marx on Sunday mornings. No fun being a socialist when everyone else can be one. But till then drink beer and hope the poor notice.

[BullDog]

I have no clue who Will Menaker is but no way.

Oh yeah, let the little woman step aside for the great man. I'm sure Elizabeth Warren's supporters who have heard all the Bernie Bros calling her a liar, Pocahontas, etc. will be "all in."

It's a long race. We've gone through 1 small white state that was a caucus and after NH is over, 2 small white states. That's it. Sanders isn't owed anything.

Biden has the most support among black voters, Warren is second and we have much more diverse states coming up. I couldn't find a quick link to the surveys but I saw on AM Joy that a YouGov poll for Democratic Candidate Preference among Registered Black Voters for January 2020 showed Biden 46%, Sanders 17%, and Warren 14%. For February 2020 it was Biden 43%, Warren 14%, Bloomberg 12%, Sanders 8%. Sanders dropped a lot. I'm definitely not ready to crown him king.

I'm not a Pete supporter - it's ridiculous to think you can go from being a mayor of a mid-sized city to President of the United States - but I am definitely seeing plenty of attacks from the Bernie Bros.

If I was someone who begs - which I am not - I'd be begging people to vote for anyone but Sanders so we can avoid a landslide Trump victory and not have the House and Senate dragged down as well.

[Martina]

Every poll for the last month and perhaps before has Sanders beating Trump in the general election.

[C0LLETTE]

"In the general election on November 7, 1972, the McGovern–Shriver ticket suffered a 61 percent to 37 percent defeat to Nixon – at the time, the second biggest landslide in American history, with an Electoral College total of 520 to 17. "

Sad to say, if Sanders becomes the Dem candidate, it's a good bet that the McGovern ticket will move into third place in the landslide sweepstakes.

[Martina]

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-leads-all-democratic-candidates-support-non-white-voters-new-polls-show-1486807

BERNIE SANDERS LEADS ALL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES IN SUPPORT FROM NON-WHITE VOTERS, NEW POLLS SHOW

[~ocean]

okay wait till u read this !!! Anna Navaro << I think that's how u spell it ~ said that TRUMP likes to be spanked with a rolled up news papers by a stripper !!! I was dusting when I over heard this on CNN ~ I have to say it was btwn. 12:00 and 1:00 pm lolol I was laughing so hard ~ I pictured his bull dog friend BARR and the rest of the TRUMPERS sitting around a card table w/ TRUMP getting spanked by a French poodle dressed like a stripper ~ puts a new twist on a old classic dog picture .

[homoe]

okay wait till u read this !!! Anna Navaro << I think that's how u spell it ~ said that TRUMP likes to be spanked with a rolled up news papers by a stripper !!! I was dusting when I over heard this on CNN ~ I have to say it was btwn. 12:00 and 1:00 pm lolol I was laughing so hard ~ I pictured his bull dog friend BARR and the rest of the TRUMPERS sitting around a card table w/ TRUMP getting spanked by a French poodle dressed like a stripper ~ puts a new twist on a old classic dog picture .

Well no doubt he'd prohibit any papers rolled from being from the Washington Post and NYTimes....:giggle:

[homoe]

Well no doubt he'd prohibit any papers rolled from being from the Washington Post and NYTimes....:giggle:



Either of those would defeat the purpose and render him as limp as an old dish rag:giggle:

[homoe]

okay wait till u read this !!! Anna Navaro << I think that's how u spell it ~ said that TRUMP likes to be spanked with a rolled up news papers by a stripper !!! I was dusting when I over heard this on CNN ~ I have to say it was btwn. 12:00 and 1:00 pm lolol I was laughing so hard ~ I pictured his bull dog friend BARR and the rest of the TRUMPERS sitting around a card table w/ TRUMP getting spanked by a French poodle dressed like a stripper ~ puts a new twist on a old classic dog picture .

I found the following excerpt....

NAVARRO: “Now, on the substance of it, I think it’s downright laughable for somebody to define Donald Trump as the man, the masculine man on the stage. The masculine man on the stage — listen, he’s a draft dodger. This is a guy who wears more pancake makeup than any drag queen I ever saw. This is man whose hair is dyed. This is a man who, you know, allegedly gets spanked with a folded up magazine by a stripper. So I don’t know what the definition is of masculinity or being a man’s man, but I’d much rather a Pete Buttigieg who is loyal and who loves his husband, his one husband, as opposed to a man who cheated on his pregnant wife with a Playboy model and cheated on the Playboy model with a stripper, who then he paid hush money to. So if that’s the definition of masculinity, I will take Pete Buttigieg any day of the week.”

[C0LLETTE]

I do believe Trump is having the worst week of his presidency and there's still Friday and the weekend to come.

[C0LLETTE]

...and btw, AG Barr : " It's the cover-up, stupid."
( to paraphrase James Carville )

[C0LLETTE]

I'd love to see Sanders or Bloomberg as President...if only to curdle the blood of every antisemite in every rat hole .

[FireSignFemme]

I can think of better ways to attack antisemites without unleashing Bloomberg or Sanders on the entire human population.

[C0LLETTE]

Could you please give me an example and use some humour to do it?

[FireSignFemme]

Could you please give me an example and use some humour to do it?

Well, since you asked so nicely - no.

[dark_crystal]

I'd love to see Sanders or Bloomberg as President...if only to curdle the blood of every antisemite in every rat hole .

Bloomberg can take a seat but i think it will be REALLY interesting if Sanders wins. There is a lot of antisemitism among the evangelicals and they have been hiding it for the sake of their Israel agenda. It is going to be hard for them to continue to walk that line when they start foaming at the mouth over a Jewish President like they did over a black one.

[cathexis]

Been reading about the DSA, seems it has fewer members than the Rotary Club.
When the shit hits the fan and being a "socialist" in America starts to have zero cachet and can actually get you hung and wont get you invited to a gallery opening...I'd bet on the Rotary.

The only Socialists I respect are the ones that live it and have lived it for years and will still be living it when it's no longer de rigueur to drink Manhattans, , Negronis, and hoist a Mimosa to Marx on Sunday mornings. No fun being a socialist when everyone else can be one. But till then drink beer and hope the poor notice.

Had to research DSA (DSA, what?), ok that milk toast group that merged with NAM in the early '80s. Now, I have a handle on what dilute mishmash there're talking about. Yeah, now I recall our Marxist Studies professors discussing NAM (pre-DSA) with disdain. Anti-USSR, Anti-bloc, anti-China, Cuba, and most of the progressive Central and South American movements, and inclusive of most Democratic (big D) issues without any credit to the history where from they sparked. Can't see much difference between them and the DNCC.

How can this group use "Socialist" in their name, even yet their manifesto. So, the word turns off some younger voters. They need to know of the people who fought, were tortured, and were killed paving the way.
The website mentions, "Christian Socialists," as being part of their coalition, a group is either one or the other, but are theoretically opposed. A true socialist or communist doesn't support a position that distracts or soothes people's suffering making them less aware of their plight.

[C0LLETTE]

Seems there are more varieties of "socialists":
Marxism–Leninism.
Mutualism.
Collectivist anarchism.
Anarchist communism.
Anarcho-syndicalism.
Ethical socialism.
Christian socialism.
Christian anarchism.
etc
than there are churches in Oklahoma where every guy with more than 100 sq feet to spare in the back 40 can build his own church and call it whatever he wants as long as it will fit on a billboard right beside the road.

[C0LLETTE]

Quid Pro Quo is Not Dead

gosh what a timing coincidence: baseless case agst McCabe dropped, Mike Flynn ( who pleaded guilty ) case will get a review.

[Martina]

than there are churches in Oklahoma where every guy with more than 100 sq feet to spare in the back 40 can build his own church and call it whatever he wants as long as it will fit on a billboard right beside the road..

I imagine you can find similar places in Alberta.

[CherylNYC]

Could you please give me an example and use some humour to do it?

Adam Sandler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5Z-HpHH9g

[C0LLETTE]

Adam Sandler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5Z-HpHH9g

Thanks Cheryl.
I tried to watch it but couldn't. The message is: "The uploader has not made this video available in your country." Arghh. I bet it's uproariously funny.

[C0LLETTE]

Is it the Chanukah Song?

[Martina]

Watching Bernie on a CNN town hall. He's doing great as always. People really do respond to him. Fingers crossed.

[CherylNYC]

Is it the Chanukah Song?

Yes, it is.

[Martina]

Bernie did well in the debate and is double digits leading in Nevada last I read. One step at a time, but feeling positive.

[Kelt]

Last nights debate struck me as being a schoolyard brawl or food-fight. Disappointing on all fronts.

I guess hoping for a group of functioning adults to have a rational discussion about policy issues kind of set me up for that.

What a bunch of :jester::jester::jester::jester::jester::jester:

[Kelt]

Something that is CA specific but bothers me is that in this state if you are not a registered *insert party* you cannot participate in the primaries. You are required to change affiliations temporarily to participate and then hope that the automatic return to previous registration works. I think this might (know it does) discourage a lot of people from voting the primaries. The state process for doing this is clear as mud. Mine worked but I don't see too many going through the hassle. There are a lot of delegates in CA.

[hagster]

I moved to California a couple months ago and registered as a 'no party preference ' voter; I did this in hopes of avoiding the non stop mailings and calls during election seasons. I feared I had screwed myself when my NPP ballot came in the mail with no primary voting options. However, I just called the registrar's office, told them I wish to vote in the upcoming primary and they're sending out a new ballot. I asked her twice about being switched to the Democratic party preference and she assured me I haven't, that I'm still registered as no party preference. The only hoop I have to jump through is mailing a pink slip, which comes with the new ballot, back to them saying I received two ballots and have shredded the first one. It comes with its own envelope so easy peasy.

[nhplowboi]

Oh Donald can I say Russia, Russia, Russia.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Bernie Sanders has told Russia publicly to stay out of U.S. elections. I wonder what he will do about the Russia issue if he wins? Bernie doesn't strike me as an especially tech-savvy guy. Will he be smart enough to get input and help from tech-savvy people?

[nhplowboi]

Wow Bernie! A month ago you heard Russia was helping you and you kept that info to yourself?! Interesting it is you and the boob they are trying to help. Do you get it Bernie? You are the frigging reason we have the boob in office now. YOU split the vote. You are a useless Vt hippie on a power trip telling everyone everything will be free once you are in office.

[~ocean]

Wow Bernie! A month ago you heard Russia was helping you and you kept that info to yourself?! Interesting it is you and the boob they are trying to help. Do you get it Bernie? You are the frigging reason we have the boob in office now. YOU split the vote. You are a useless Vt hippie on a power trip telling everyone everything will be free once you are in office.

^ 5 NH ~ when a candidate tells people what they want to hear and no explanation as to HOW it can be accomplished I get leery and not interested to hear anymore. The only way I see the Russia interference btwn TRUMP & Sanders is that Sanders didn't take Russia up on their offer. << I hope I am right lol I agree w/ Sanders though if TRUMP and his cronies paid their taxes so much more could be available for the American citizen . He brought up immigrants saying we all deserve equality, I would like to see ALL immigrants become American citizens have American benefits. they ( candidates ) have to come forward and not be scared to get their citizenship papers. I don't want to hear about what they have done or what they are going to do ~ I want to hear HOW << if it was so easy to have all those empty promises met at this point ~ it would have been done. oy lol so how r u and Bev ? lol

[BullDog]

It's obvious Russia is backing Bernie - as are Trump and the Republicans - because he is the easiest for Trump to beat! This is the absolute proof with this news that Sanders was briefed. Everyone knows this except the Bernie faithful who think they are smarter than the rest of the world.

And they keep saying but look at the head-to-head matchups. No one has hit Sanders with all the opposition research yet - they have been friendly to Bernie. They don't even need to make anything up about Sanders. His own history writes the attack ads. In the meantime, Biden shows the best head-to-head matchups with Trump in the swing states and that's after the Ukraine scandal.

Another thing that really bothers me is Sanders trying to suggest the Washington Post dumped the story to hurt him in Nevada. First of all, there is huge early voting in Nevada - so no it won't. Also, the American public has the right to know this! He wants it kept secret from us. It shows how Russia favors him as the nominee so Trump can beat him. Voters have a right to know this.

Then he just said yesterday how the Democratic establishment can't stop him. If you are the President or nominee of a party you are supposed to be the leader of the party - not oppose it! He makes me furious.

People need to start using their heads when they vote or it's 4 more years of Trump. Sanders will drag down the Senate and House too. And how long can Ginsburg last on the Supreme Court.

[Martina]

It's looking good for Bernie tonight. I'm happy.

[Kätzchen]

It's obvious Russia is backing Bernie - as are Trump and the Republicans - because he is the easiest for Trump to beat! This is the absolute proof with this news that Sanders was briefed. Everyone knows this except the Bernie faithful who think they are smarter than the rest of the world.

And they keep saying but look at the head-to-head matchups. No one has hit Sanders with all the opposition research yet - they have been friendly to Bernie. They don't even need to make anything up about Sanders. His own history writes the attack ads. In the meantime, Biden shows the best head-to-head matchups with Trump in the swing states and that's after the Ukraine scandal.

Another thing that really bothers me is Sanders trying to suggest the Washington Post dumped the story to hurt him in Nevada. First of all, there is huge early voting in Nevada - so no it won't. Also, the American public has the right to know this! He wants it kept secret from us. It shows how Russia favors him as the nominee so Trump can beat him. Voters have a right to know this.

Then he just said yesterday how the Democratic establishment can't stop him. If you are the President or nominee of a party you are supposed to be the leader of the party - not oppose it! He makes me furious.

People need to start using their heads when they vote or it's 4 more years of Trump. Sanders will drag down the Senate and House too. And how long can Ginsburg last on the Supreme Court.

It is good to see you back on the boards, Bulldog.

I agree … I think people need to exercise a wide berth of caution as the months roll by before the big election this coming fall.

With a Republican controlled senate, and with heavy placement of conservative right-leaning judicial appointees who will serve a life time (reigning ach-ee-double-ell judges), and other unknown and unnamed conspirators who have helped the conservative right in upending democracy in favor of dictatorial rule and mindset, it is very worrisome and deeply concerning.



Was it Oscar Wilde who once said that, "For evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing"?

In nearly six months, I hope that a massive majority of voters will elect to oust the dictator in the WH (and subsequent henchmen across the political spectrum) and effectively say: "Game Over."

[Martina]

Wow. A huge victory. South Carolina won't be that strong or perhaps even a victory, but this is reason to feel hopeful. Go, Bernie!

[Martina]

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-22/bernie-sanders-latino-politicians

[BullDog]

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-22/bernie-sanders-latino-politicians

Yes, of course, Latino Democrat politicians aren't going to endorse him because it would be political suicide. And it would be political suicide for all the Democratic House Members and Senators to have to run with him leading the ticket.

The Congressional Democrats have made it clear they don't want to run with him, Trump obviously favors him, the Russians are trying to help him win the Democratic nomination. How much more evidence do people need????? Do you really think we can survive 4 more years of Trump?

[dark_crystal]

Wow. A huge victory. South Carolina won't be that strong or perhaps even a victory, but this is reason to feel hopeful. Go, Bernie!

I am STOKED!

And laughing:

Boston Herald: Joe Biden may be the only way Democrats stop Bernie Sanders now (https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/02/22/as-sanders-poised-to-take-nevada-democrats-face-serious-questions/)

The Bulwark: The 5 Lessons from 2016 Democrats Need to Understand If They Want to Stop Bernie (https://thebulwark.com/the-5-lessons-from-2016-democrats-need-to-understand-if-they-want-to-stop-bernie/)

Fox News: Bernie Sanders’ projected Nevada victory leaves Dem establishment scrambling – Can he be stopped? (https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/john-fund-bernie-sanders-projected-nevada-victory-leaves-dem-establishment-scrambling-can-he-be-stopped)

CNN: There's no way to stop Bernie Sanders (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/02/23/sotu-mckinnon-sanders.cnn)

Mother Jones: Democrats Have No Plan to Stop Bernie Sanders (https://www.motherjones.com/2020-elections/2020/02/bernie-sanders-wins-nevada-nomination-next/)

NYT: Bernie Sanders Romps in Nevada. Is He Unstoppable? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/opinion/sunday/bernie-sanders-democrats-2020.html)

CNN International: Bernie Sanders' revolution is coming. His rivals are running out of time to stop it (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/23/politics/bernie-sanders-revolution-nevada/index.html)

Daily Beast: This Is the Only Move That Will Stop Sanders Now (https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-is-the-only-move-that-will-stop-bernie-sanders-now)

NYMag: Maybe The Democratic Party Elite Can Actually Stop Bernie (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/democratic-party-stop-bernie-sanders-2020.html)

[Kätzchen]

Barack Obama was quoted as having said, that "Bernie Sanders is stoppable."

I think this is entirely true for any presidential candidate that does not have the best interests of the country at heart (including members of the GOP and that horrid person occupying the WH).

[Martina]

Polling has Sanders the biggest winner over Trump in most states where a Democrat would likely win. Not in New York (I think it was Bloomberg), but he would certainly carry New York if he got the nomination. He is the most electable Democrat at the moment. I don't know what negative info people think might be out there, but I think since Bernie has been in Congress for thirty years, most of it has come out.

Bloomberg is going to hurt Biden and Klobuchar and perhaps Warren. But he's not taking Bernie voters, predictably. So he is actually helping Sanders. Bernie has got the Democratic Party and the liberal media against him. If there were a lot of negative stories about him, they'd be getting attention now.

MSNBC is so sad. They keep doing the math and hoping it will all come out differently. Lol. They keep giving Klobuchar free publicity. They love her.

Bernie is almost guaranteed to win Michigan in the general election. And he's ahead of Trump in polls in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. That would be it. End of story. Plus he's tied in Florida and only two points behind Trump in Texas in the latest poll. It could be a landslide for Bernie.

[Martina]

Chris Matthews just apologized to Bernie for comparing the Nevada win to the Nazi invasion of France. It was a good moment. Lol.

They are making hay over this Fidel Castro comment though. That was a mistake Bernie didn't need to make.

[charley]

Chris Matthews just apologized to Bernie for comparing the Nevada win to the Nazi invasion of France. It was a good moment. Lol.

They are making hay over this Fidel Castro comment though. That was a mistake Bernie didn't need to make.

I saw that mistake, and thought it was stupid of him praising some of Fidel's actions there, I don't think he realizes how fearful many are of communism. I've vacationed in Cuba, and could never live in a place like that.

It would be better were he to stress and state often that he is still promoting democracy, and being a democrat. After all, I live in a democracy that offers free medicare to all. So, it would be of benefit for him to state that there are democracies in the world that offer free medicare - such as Canada, UK, etc. - in other words, he must educate the voters.

[BullDog]

The op research file on Sanders is damning. Anyone pretending that it's not is living in a fantasy land.

No Democrat wants to run down-ticket with him. A presidential nominee is not supposed to be a huge liability for other Democrats trying to get elected.

He has all the Florida Democrats up in arms over his remarks about Castro in his recent 60 Minute interview:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/24/florida-dems-uproar-sanders-cuba-comments-117213

I hope Sanders gets hit hard at the debate. He has been skating and getting off way too easy.

He's a train wreck for the Democratic party.

Fuckery Planned for South Carolina:

https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/upstate-gop-leaders-plotting-to-impact-sc-democratic-primary-by/article_f1e7abd2-4788-11ea-aa9f-33a1d262994c.html

Who Knows How Much It Happened in Nevada:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/02/nevada-gop-activist-reveals-how-he-caucused-for-bernie-to-help-trump-win-it-would-be-a-dream-election/?fbclid=IwAR0z31X0URLmRW2LnqF3NRtnX9FgVM1MoIIm4PQR pCDMzTtFuuQPNjtJuMA

The point is everyone thinks Bernie is the weakest candidate except of course the Bernie faithful.

God help us all.

[BullDog]

Sanders seriously considered primarying President Obama in 2012. What an asshole.

Biden's new ad:

qLtofRjUb7Y

[Martina]

The Castro stuff just happened. What research are you talking about? Apparently the entire country is in fantasy land because no one is talking about it. The Castro thing was massively stupid. Bernie can usually be trusted not to do things like that. He won't stay tied in Florida for long if he defends that statement during the debates.

How can he be the weakest candidate when in polls pitting each Democrat running against Trump, Bernie does the best? Asserting things doesn't make them so.
The op research file on Sanders is damning. Anyone pretending that it's not is living in a fantasy land.

No Democrat wants to run down-ticket with him. A presidential nominee is not supposed to be a huge liability for other Democrats trying to get elected.

He has all the Florida Democrats up in arms over his remarks about Castro in his recent 60 Minute interview:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/24/florida-dems-uproar-sanders-cuba-comments-117213

I hope Sanders gets hit hard at the debate. He has been skating and getting off way too easy.

He's a train wreck for the Democratic party.

Fuckery Planned for South Carolina:

https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/upstate-gop-leaders-plotting-to-impact-sc-democratic-primary-by/article_f1e7abd2-4788-11ea-aa9f-33a1d262994c.html

Who Knows How Much It Happened in Nevada:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/02/nevada-gop-activist-reveals-how-he-caucused-for-bernie-to-help-trump-win-it-would-be-a-dream-election/?fbclid=IwAR0z31X0URLmRW2LnqF3NRtnX9FgVM1MoIIm4PQR pCDMzTtFuuQPNjtJuMA

The point is everyone thinks Bernie is the weakest candidate except of course the Bernie faithful.

God help us all.

[BullDog]

The Castro stuff just happened. What research are you talking about? Apparently the entire country is in fantasy land because no one is talking about it. The Castro thing was massively stupid. Bernie can usually be trusted not to do things like that. He won't stay tied in Florida for long if he defends that statement during the debates.

How can he be the weakest candidate when in polls pitting each Democrat running against Trump, Bernie does the best? Asserting things doesn't make them so.

Oh, they will be talking about. You are in complete denial.

I'll be back with a nice succinct list later.

[Martina]

Here's Clinton's research. It didn't make a big splash then. I don't think it's going to discourage many people now. Some of it is regrettable and wrong -- guns. But he's been more consistent than Biden by far. And Bloomberg of course, who has changed parties. I think the socialist stuff will scare some, but the more air time Bernie gets, the more people he wins over with his decency and authenticity. People like him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/davidmack/heres-the-extensive-research-the-clinton-campaign-had-on-ber

[BullDog]

The stuff from the Clinton oppo research isn't what I was referring to.

Yes, of course, his remarks about Castro are new - they reinforce things from his past that people are bothered about. And the Florida Democrats don't want to run with him - and people should care about the down races too and not just Saint Bernie.

Anyway, Martina, I know I will never convince you about anything regarding Sanders but other people might want to know some of the following.

This excerpt from an article sums up some of the more problematic things about Sanders. There is more - a lot more. (I added the bold).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-donald-trump

Nonetheless, Sanders faces serious obstacles to obtaining the Democratic presidential nomination. The gentle treatment he received in 2016 from the media and the Hillary Clinton campaign (which ran few negative television or media ads against him) means that many Democratic voters haven’t yet learned about the distinctly non-progressive positions he has taken on certain issues throughout his senatorial career.

Vermont is one of the whitest states in the nation, as well as among the most rural, the oldest (in terms of the age of its population), and with the fewest immigrants. Sanders, to win elections, had to appeal to hunters, older voters and other socially conservative constituencies. This explains his long opposition to gun safety measures (he voted repeatedly against the Brady bill and measures to hold gun manufacturers liable for the damage done by their products), his comparatively late conversion to the cause of gay marriage (he opposed it in Vermont as late as 2006), and his nativist opposition to certain immigration reforms (on the grounds that they would undercut wages for American workers).

If Sanders wins in Iowa and New Hampshire, it’s a safe bet that African American voters in South Carolina will hear quite a lot from his Democratic competitors about his vote for the so-called “Charleston loophole” that allowed the white supremacist Dylann Roof to get the gun he used to kill nine African Americans at a South Carolina church. And although former vice-president Joe Biden has caught heat for writing what became the 1994 crime bill – which, many progressives claim, resulted in mass minority incarceration – Sanders voted for it as well.

Democratic primary voters may also wonder how effective Sanders would be as president. His pitch to his supporters is that, if he somehow were to be elected, some sort of “political revolution” would result in Congress passing multitrillion-dollar plans for a Green New Deal, a top-to-bottom transformation of the healthcare system, a federal job guarantee, free college and student debt elimination, plus other vastly ambitious and expensive plans for education, immigration, housing and so forth.

These promises are unrealistic, and Sanders’ ability to get them past Congress would be approximately nil. The 2016 Clinton campaign’s opposition research file charged that Sanders, largely because of his go-it-alone approach, had a thin record of legislative accomplishment. “Sanders only sponsored one substantive bill that became law,” the document observed, while none of his House amendments had co-sponsors. And Sanders ranks dead last among all senators in the Lugar Center’s Bipartisanship Index for both the last two Congresses.

The chances of Sanders actually becoming president, however, are also close to nil. I say this because in 2016 I got a glimpse of the Republican party’s opposition research book on Sanders, which was so massive it had to be transported on a cart. The Newsweek reporter Kurt Eichenwald, who got to see some of its contents, declared that “it was brutal. The Republicans would have torn [Sanders] apart.”

According to Eichenwald, the book includes damning material such as the fact that Sanders was on unemployment until his mid-30s, that he co-sponsored a bill to ship Vermont’s nuclear waste to Texas where it would be dumped in a poor Hispanic community, that he honeymooned in the Soviet Union, and that he appeared at a 1985 rally in Nicaragua at which Sandinista supporters chanted “Here, there / the Yankee will die.” And then there’s Sanders’ fictitious essay in which he described a woman enjoying being raped by three men…

After the Trump campaign and Fox News got through weaponizing this research, the usual conservative charges against Sanders – that his domestic program would cost nearly $100tn over the next decade, that he would ban individual health insurance, send taxes into the stratosphere, and sympathize with terrorists and leftwing regimes – would seem almost benign. The Republican campaign against any Democratic presidential candidate is guaranteed to be ugly, but against Sanders it would be gruesome. The result most likely would be a Democratic wipeout on the scale of Labour’s under Jeremy Corbyn.

That’s why Sanders is the preferred Democratic nominee of Trump and his aides. It explains otherwise puzzling stories such as Trump coming to Sanders’ defense against Warren’s no-female-president claim, saying sexism is “not his deal”. And while living in Washington has made me cynical in some ways, I would not be in the least surprised if conservative dollars are swelling the coffers of Our Revolution, Sanders’ dark-money Super Pac which doesn’t have to disclose its donors.

Sanders is in many ways an appealing politician whose message has resounded at a moment when both America’s economic and political systems face tremendous voter skepticism. But as a viable candidate to defeat Trump? As they say in Sanders’ Brooklyn birthplace, fuhgeddaboudit.

p.s. I hear Bloomberg is about to unleash ads on Sanders based on his oppo research.

[Martina]

Sanders held a number of jobs before he was elected Mayor of Burlington. He worked. Total bullshit. All of this is ideological, meaning you just disagree with his position, or it's not true or we've heard it before and no one cares. So harmless.

[BullDog]

I do believe a fair amount of it is true, but you missed the entire point - this is Republican oppo research that is waiting for him if he makes it to the General.

Of course if you already worship Bernie then you don't care. But oh, I don't think it is harmless at all.

[BullDog]

Oh good lord now Sanders said this tonight at a CNN town hall (after defending his comments on Castro).

Sanders: "China is another example. China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny – I mean, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history."

Even if you think this is true do not say anything nice about a Communist authoritarian regime when you are trying to become a Presidential nominee and you are already tagged with the Socialist label. He just voluntarily said this. He didn't even have to mention China at all. What the hell is wrong with him.

[Kätzchen]

Oh good lord now Sanders said this tonight at a CNN town hall (after defending his comments on Castro).

Sanders: "China is another example. China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny – I mean, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history."

Even if you think this is true do not say anything nice about a Communist authoritarian regime when you are trying to become a Presidential nominee and you are already tagged with the Socialist label. He just voluntarily said this. He didn't even have to mention China at all. What the hell is wrong with him.

I'm glad I missed hearing that but glad also that you posted about it.

At one time, several years ago, I thought Sanders would make a good president, but I don't feel that way anymore. The more I hear him talk, the more I move away and don't want to hear him. Same thing with the horrid person in the WH.

I read somewhere last week, or the week before, I forget now, but I read a news article which spoke of how people in Germany are alarmed to the n-th degree about how the political climate in the US reminds them of the days before and after Hitler came to power. I agree. I am terribly worried that the power struggle between political parties in the US will lead to more dis/mis-information/propaganda and that people, in general (including myself) will be misled by these 'titans' of politics who do the bidding of those who are pulling their puppet strings.

I don't know what will become of our country if people keep believing the BS being spewed by most all of the contenders vying for the presidency.

I know one thing, it's definitely not Sanders who will save the country. It's not Bloomberg either, and the person occupying the WH and destroying our country should not even be there.

<<<<<<~~~ not falling for the Sanders propaganda this time or from anyone else.

[BullDog]

I don't know about lifting people out of poverty but under Communist Party Chairman Mao Zedong an estimated 36 million people died of starvation in 1958-1962 during the Great Leap Forward initiative when private farm ownership was prohibited.

[Martina]

Globalization pulled people out of extreme poverty. The capitalism that is destroying the planet and ravaging the middle class while enriching the .1 percent has also reduced extreme poverty in many parts of the world. Not the Chinese govt. Bernie, what the fuck? I don't know why he's doing this. It will hurt him. It's not a fatal blow. If Trump can kiss Putin's ass as well as bend over for China and Saudi, I don't think people are gonna freak out.

[Martina]

This made me laugh.

https://youtu.be/Zjj7VJpqy1w

[Martina]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/25/get-ready-anti-sanders-media-avalanche/

[nhplowboi]

Bernie was elected mayor I think at age 40. From what I read he didn't amount to much of anything before that. Maybe he's a late bloomer but I think not.

[Martina]

He had a number of jobs. He worked as a carpenter, directed a non-profit which made film strips, wrote freelance, worked as an aide in a psych hospital, did research for the state of Vt, registered people for food stamps for a non profit, worked as a Head Start teacher, and other things. What he was doing was making a living while being an activist. I lived in Ann Arbor back in the day, and there were tons of college educated committed hardworking people doing all kinds of jobs so they could continue their activism. I imagine there were even fewer job opportunities in Vermont. There are lots of politicians who didn't have major careers before politics. I consider his working class roots something to be proud of.

[Martina]

Bernie survived the battering he got on the debate stage. A fair number of news organizations, including CNN, listed him as a winner. It helped that the other candidates had Bloomberg to attack, too. I do like Warren. She did really well. I don't know what the people of South Carolina thought, but my guess is the debate may have hurt Bernie a tiny bit. He seems more curmudgeonly in that setting. It was like a brawl, not a good look for anyone really.

[BullDog]

I didn't think Sanders had that great of a debate but he wasn't hit hard enough either, so no game-changer - which is good for him.

I thought Biden was strong and he is the only one who looks remotely presidential to me.

Yelling, waving your arms with a red face is not presidential to me. Nor is having hopelessly impractical plans.

Warren is good at attacking Bloomberg but seemed like too much of a repeat to me. I don't mind Bloomberg getting hammered though. She won't go after Bernie so she is pretty much doomed. I agree with her that she is the better progressive to get things done compared to Sanders, but I don't see any Bernie fans switching to her at this point that has not already and many Democrats find her too far left.

Bloomberg was a lot better than last time but still an emotionless robot and hit hard by Warren.

I didn't think the others stood out much.

[Martina]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/25/bernie-sanders-democratic-debate-super-tuesday

[~ocean]

that orange baboon don't even know how many cases their are in the US ~ nor the country's affected by the virus. I'm so embarrassed if anyone see's this from other country's.

[Martina]

Well if you trust the polls, Bernie did take a small hit in South Carolina from the drubbing he received last night in the debate although he performed pretty well under the circumstances. Probably, the recent China/Cuba comments didn't help. Strangely, he's polling slightly higher everywhere else there is polling for. Who knows?

[BullDog]

Jim Clyburn endorsed Joe Biden today - which is huge. Not unexpected since they have been friends for a long time but he is the most influential politician in South Carolina. His remarks were very powerful and moving.

The main thing I'm worried about is there are definite calls out among some Republicans in South Carolina to cross over and vote for Sanders to help Trump. The Republican primary was canceled so they are all freed up. I sure hope there are no shenanigans that affect the final outcome.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/02/25/bernie-sanders-support-urged-by-sc-republicans-ahead-democratic-primary-election/4866493002/

Also, Republicans are trying to run a fake ad to make it look like Obama was calling Biden a racist. Obama has sent a cease and desist letter to media outlets in South Carolina. That will, of course, backfire on them because it introduces Obama into the conversation who is saying, of course, it's not true.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/26/obama-biden-tv-attack-ad-117776

(more info on Republicans plans to vote for Sanders in this article too)

Bloomberg appears to be dropping in the polls. I certainly hope so. I did see the title of an article that I thought was hilarious:

"Warren Decides to Murder Bloomberg, 6 Days After Killing Him"

(I know there is nothing funny about someone actually dying so I assure you I am just laughing about political death)

[Martina]

Michelle Cottle of the New York Times and Trevor Noah both compared Warren's attack on Bloomberg to Uma Thurman's bloodletting in Kill Bill. Lol.

Re South Carolina, I don't think Bernie can win, but he'll pick up some delegates. He has a good chance of taking most of the states voting on Super Tuesday though.

[Martina]

Nate Silver predicts Bernie will take every state but Minnesota, Alabama and Tennessee. The polls aren't as rosy, and I think Bernie hurt himself a little lately. Still, Bernie will get a ton of delegates on Super Tuesday.

[charley]

Nate Silver predicts Bernie will take every state but Minnesota, Alabama and Tennessee. The polls aren't as rosy, and I think Bernie hurt himself a little lately. Still, Bernie will get a ton of delegates on Super Tuesday.

Wel...cough...since Clyburn endorsed Biden, I think Biden will take South Carolina. (I saw Clyburn's endorsement.)

And, with Bernie's remarks re: Cuba/Castro, I doubt he will take Florida.

Btw, The Boston Globe editorial board has endorsed Warren [who I still like :) ], but I wish she would stop going after Bloomberg, and go after Bernie.
Bloomberg's presence is helping Bernie. So, the more she goes after Bloomberg, in a way, she is helping Bernie. I don't get her behaviour in the debates.

Even though I can relate to what Bernie says re: health care, I am concerned that if Bernie wins the nomination, Trump may get a 2nd term... just saying.

[Martina]

Endorsements don't always mean much. Everyone endorsed Trump's primary opponents, and he still got the nomination.

Florida isn't a Super Tuesday race, but I don't think it will hurt him too much. Most older Cuban Americans are Republicans. But the aging population means that Biden will probably win. Bernie does best with younger voters.

[Martina]

A poll came out today of Pennsylvania voters comparing which candidate will do best against Trump in the general election. Right now, only Bernie -- Bernie -- can win Pennsylvania. Biden ties, and everyone else loses. Pennsylvania! What is this endless bullshit about Bernie losing in the general election? No. If he gets the nomination, he will win.

But the Dems are willing to cheat Bernie out of the nomination at the Convention if he goes in winning but without a majority. They will do that. If they do, I will never vote Democratic again and will donate to progressive third party candidates when they exist. If they rob Bernie, they will lose this election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/democratic-superdelegates.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[BullDog]

Endorsements don't always mean much. Everyone endorsed Trump's primary opponents, and he still got the nomination.

Florida isn't a Super Tuesday race, but I don't think it will hurt him too much. Most older Cuban Americans are Republicans. But the aging population means that Biden will probably win. Bernie does best with younger voters.

Jim Clyburn's endorsement isn't just any old endorsement. He is the most influential politician in South Carolina and is revered throughout the state and beyond. His remarks were very moving and powerful. That endorsement was from his heart.

F7b6oh_RfD8

[BullDog]

A poll came out today of Pennsylvania voters comparing which candidate will do best against Trump in the general election. Right now, only Bernie -- Bernie -- can win Pennsylvania. Biden ties, and everyone else loses. Pennsylvania! What is this endless bullshit about Bernie losing in the general election? No. If he gets the nomination, he will win.

But the Dems are willing to cheat Bernie out of the nomination at the Convention if he goes in winning but without a majority. They will do that. If they do, I will never vote Democratic again and will donate to progressive third party candidates when they exist. If they rob Bernie, they will lose this election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/democratic-superdelegates.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The head-to-head polls without any negative attacks yet against Sanders are meaningless and I already showed the preview of all the crap they have on Sanders - much of which is true - and he just gave fresh red meat with his Cuba and China remarks.

So Trump wants Bernie, the Republicans want Bernie, the Russians want Bernie, Republicans are crossing over to vote for Bernie in the primaries, very, very few Congressional Democrats want to run with him, and most Democrats other than the Bernie faithful are terrified of Bernie losing in a landslide to Trump.

The Congressional Democrats would be happy to run with him if they thought he could win and help them win, even if they disagreed with his views. Everyone loves a winner and wants to win themselves.

How much evidence do people need? Only the Bernie faithful think he can win. I guess they have some special insight that no one else in the entire world knows about.

If Sanders percentage of delegates is higher enough than anyone else then the Dems will not try to take it away. If it is close or he doesn't have the most delegates then he will lose - because they don't think he is the best candidate to win. Besides, he fights the Dems all the time and doesn't ever act like a leader of the party and then wants everything to go his way. They changed the damn Convention rules for him, just like they added all the extra info that had to be reported for the Caucuses because of him. People can go start a new party and be as relevant as Jill Stein is if they want to. Maybe the attempts at highjacking the Democratic party will stop.

Anyway, there is still a long way to go. Maybe Biden can come back. I think he is the only one who has a chance but Sanders. Maybe Bloomberg with his billions but he is dropping in the polls fast. And he complicates things for Biden so I am pissed.

Maybe Sanders will be a clear winner - either with a majority of delegates or a high enough plurality where they can't challenge him. If so, God help us all. I am having a hard time sleeping at night due to this possibility. No joke.
__________________

[~ocean]

Wel...cough...since Clyburn endorsed Biden, I think Biden will take South Carolina. (I saw Clyburn's endorsement.)

And, with Bernie's remarks re: Cuba/Castro, I doubt he will take Florida.

Btw, The Boston Globe editorial board has endorsed Warren [who I still like :) ], but I wish she would stop going after Bloomberg, and go after Bernie.
Bloomberg's presence is helping Bernie. So, the more she goes after Bloomberg, in a way, she is helping Bernie. I don't get her behaviour in the debates.

Even though I can relate to what Bernie says re: health care, I am concerned that if Bernie wins the nomination, Trump may get a 2nd term... just saying.



she shouldn't go after ANYONE esp. her own party . they need to concentrate on the issues and not act so vicious, it lowers their intelligence.Warren will never get my vote because of her behavior.

[C0LLETTE]

"Confidence Interval: “I Think The Biden Campaign Is Doing Just Fine”

Micah Cohen
Five Thirty Eight

Personally, I like my little picked cherry but I suppose you can find anything you like out there.

[Martina]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/opinion/bernie-sanders-polls.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

[Orema]

she shouldn't go after ANYONE esp. her own party . they need to concentrate on the issues and not act so vicious, it lowers their intelligence.Warren will never get my vote because of her behavior.

And Warren will get my vote for her behavior. Slamming Bloomberg sealed the deal for me and she’s smart to try to position herself as a VP for Sanders since it’s unlikely she (or Bloomberg, I think) will be the Democratic nominee.

The primaries is the time to be tough with each other. We need to be united for the election, but gloves are off for the primaries.

The in fighting right now doesn’t bother me and won’t discourage me from voting.

Different strokes.

[Martina]

Wow. Biden did better than any of the polls predicted. I was hoping Bernie would make a better showing. On to Super Tuesday with fingers and toes crossed.

[BullDog]

Joe Biden absolutely crushed it! And awesome turnout. The record is 2008 with 532,000 and this year is over 500,000. In 2016 there were 370,000. And youth vote went down from something like 28% to 17% so this was the base of the Democratic party showing up not all the young and new voters that Sanders keeps promising but not delivering. It was great to see a lifelong Democrat with the backbone of the Democratic party showing up in force to deliver the victory.

Sanders is well-positioned for Super Tuesday. Hopefully, Biden can stay reasonably close. Later in March has more favorable states for him. He has good states on Super Tuesday but there is stupid Bloomberg. I honestly don't think anyone other than Sanders and Biden has a chance for the nomination but we will know more after Super Tuesday.

[C0LLETTE]

If Fareed Zakaria is right, Bernie's revered "Scandinavian countries" have more millionaires and billionaires per capita than the USA and the poor and middle class pay a far bigger percentage of income in taxes including non-progressive sales taxes.

But, if Bernie is right everyone will go to Valhalla...only problem being that you have to die first.

[Kätzchen]

Does anyone know if presidential contenders are even speaking up about the Student Loan Debt, zillions of us are hurdling or in some cases not able to hurdle?

Dept of Education is not exactly an agency that is student friendly to all the student loan borrowers.

I'm guessing it's an organizational issue: An isomorphic process by which the head of an organization is essentially surrounded by the same obtuse personnel who basically can't do anything but make a person's life more miserable than they are themselves (sarcasm alert).

That is a major issue for millions of us, current student loan borrowers and former student loan borrowers. Those who have an imaginary house payment made monthly or those who will soon be making payments, which don't commiserate with an equity in mind for the borrower who took a chunk of their lives to pursue an upper education degree (which, by the way, is not always going to help someone move up the social ladder - employment wise or in other ways people generally think upper education will help social mobility).

I don't want to hear about how Sanders has a plan to demolish the long held ways that US Dept of Education has fucked up the lives of millions of people who believed that earning an upper education degree would help mitigate life circumstances, financially. That agency is a big a$$ racket, with multiple stakeholders who hope to cash in on the money they can make off the backs of already dirt poor students or former students who owe the US Dept of Education for the loans taken out to earn a degree and keep college campuses in business.

Pissed off, is hardly the description I would say how this process is affecting me and millions of others who bought into the idea that our degrees would somehow provide for a better life, when all it has done is basically compounded an already complicated situation that all of us face.

I definitely do *NOT* like the person who is top dog at that agency (Devos).

I feel the same way about them as I do with all GOP admin occupying government seats or in other GOP stronghold ways.

None of them care about Student Aid Loan borrowers or the gazillion dollar debt hanging over every person who put their life on hold to earn an education to make life better for themselves. It's just the same old bottom feeder behavioral choices that govern their idea of how to make a zillion off of us. Just like they want to make a billion off of people and their health insurance coverage.

These are the top issues of major concern, in my daily life: Health Insurance (the medical empire industry), Student Loan Debt, Pay Equity and Employer/employee work benefits that are real and not some sham process that works toward the benefit of the employer vs the benefit of the employee, Tax Burden Equity (stop taxing the fuck out of the ordinary earner in our society; make those who dodge taxes pay up and pay consistently so others are not penalized by their lack of social responsibility).

Bring Social Equity back to the table in terms of correcting multiple issues that a majority of American citizens face each day, and I'd say that by doing so, that would help the lives of those of us who are not treated equitably by social institutions (health/medical, employer/employee pay equity, and the list goes on for miles and miles).