Anonymity: Good for ideas or no?

[Linus]

The TED Conferences (http://www.ted.com/) (Technology, Entertainment, Design) were created to help fuel ideas to be continued, extended and shared. Out of them I find come some of the most amazing things. And definitely get one thinking.

One discussion in this year's TED conference was called "Provocation" and Christopher Poole (as commented below from CNN) suggests that anonymous interaction online generates better ideas than would otherwise be there.


Anonymity promotes honesty

Christopher "Moot" Poole runs one of the seedier corners of the Internet. His site, called 4chan, is known as a den of porn, hacking and anonymous rants.


But Poole, a 22-year-old college student, says 4chan also protects its users privacy and promotes honest discourse. Without names in the way, people can focus on ideas, he said.


"It's anonymous and it has no memory. There's no archive. There are no barriers. There is no registration," he said of the site. "That's led to this discussion that's completely raw, completely unfiltered."

I don't know how true this is as anonymity has also opened up another side. Granted there may be many great ideas created but there is also the probability that some people will use this anonymity otherwise.

I'm curious what others think. Does anonymity truly lead to a greater focus on the ideas?

[Gemme]

I think, in the right forum, it can. However, what may be deemed as 'right' is obviously quite arguable.

Honestly, I don't think the thoughts and ideas expresssed on 4chan, as a WHOLE, do anything to progress humanity in any way. Does it allow some steam to be blown off? Sure. Does it allow a forum for those who may have (what some deem) darker desires? Sure. Does it offer information for the topics that are broached there? Sure. So, it's informational and some might say necessary but I just don't see a pool of great ideas springing forth from that particular site.

*shrug*

[Semantics]

Good for ideas.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric. -Bertrand Russell

Despite what Russell said, there are plenty of reasons to fear having an eccentric opinion.

Many scientists and philosophers were/are outcasts. Society can be stifling.

People are hesitant to offer ideas that are different or oppositional because of the potential effects on their careers, friendships, or how just how they're perceived in general.

Anonymity allows people to present ideas that without (with less) fear of backlash.

That said, to me there is a difference between the Rants and Raves section on Craigslist and a forum like this one.

True anonymity vs. pseudonymity.

Here we use pseudonymous identities, however, many of us have met in person, or talk on the phone, or are friends on Facebook where our real names are used.

I would say that there aren't many that are truly anonymous, and I think that makes us have some level of accountability.

I also almost always disagree with those who accuse that others on this site would "never say that in real life" or are hiding behind the anonymity of their online persona. I usually find the accused to be the most honest, direct, and the most willing to stand behind their ideas.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think anonymity is not a good idea, esp. when it comes to anything for money. The threat of stealing ideas for money or benefits of any kind is universal now. I think of a salesman getting a lead, and winning a bid under anoynymity, but when it comes to cashing in on it...not a pretty situation. Society sucks imho.

As for online social sites, I don't think it really matters. You will always have the trolls, the clicks, and the folks who are online for entertainment or whatever.

Semantics is right - we all pretty much know each other personally. Not too much can get away from anyone of us. We all know who is honest, dishonest, who got laid off, who got promoted, who died, and what faith they follow. Anonymity here wouldn't work.

[Ginger]

True anonymity vs. pseudonymity.

Here we use pseudonymous identities, however, many of us have met in person, or talk on the phone, or are friends on Facebook where our real names are used.

I would say that there aren't many that are truly anonymous, and I think that makes us have some level of accountability.




What a cool thread, lots of thoughts brewing here!

I think the options for degrees of anonymity on a social site are very attractive.

I'm on Facebook, and totally open there: Visitors know my name, my publications, my family; they can see my latest vacation photos, and updates on my work. My contacts are mostly in different literary communities, but they are also old friends, exes, acquaintances from jobs, and they're all over the country and in the U.K.

I feel safe revealing all that information because I don't disclose my home address, or my place of work. I guess someone could track me down if they really paid attention to details and put the pieces together to construct some hypotheses about where I am, but it wouldn't be easy.

Most of all, on Facebook, I never reveal how I'm feeling, especially when I'm feeling low or alone. I use it in a sort of promotional way, for my work, as do a lot of writers I know. It's a convention, in our communities, to do so. We keep each other updated on publishing opportunities, events, and so on. It's friendly, but impersonal. And it's useful in that way.

Here, it's not about my work. It's about my feelings. Most of all, if I need it, I can reach out and feel listened to. I can admit things that make me feel vulnerable, because the anonymity makes me feel safe enough to do so. There are people on this site who know me from the NYC gay and lesbian and butch-femme worlds, but mostly, I can be as visible or invisible as I like, via what I reveal about myself.

I really value that. And in my roundabout way, I'm responding to your point about anonymity, and accountability. For me, anonymity doesn't make me less accountable for what I say; in fact, it's just the opposite. I'm relieved to have a place where I can be totally honest about my feelings. My accountability in that regard is very high.

[BullDog]

I will never participate in any discussion without signing my name to it. If I sign BullDog I suppose that is semi-anonymous, but it is still me and I have a track record of sorts that people can refer to.

In my opinion, more often than not, anonymity leads to lack of accountability and quite often seems to be used to talk smack about people or spew hatred, all the while pretending to have lofty, noble goals.

At times I do get frustrated that people are focusing on the personalities rather than the ideas presented, but ideas are presented by human beings and we all have our individuals ways of expressing our thoughts and ideas- through our language, our personal filters, and personal histories (if any) with the people we are discussing things with.

I don't believe there is any such thing as a neutral idea- they come from real human beings. Trying to have a meaningful discussion with a bunch of "anons"- I just don't think it would work.

[Ginger]

I will never participate in any discussion without signing my name to it. If I sign BullDog I suppose that is semi-anonymous, but it is still me and I have a track record of sorts that people can refer to.



This part of what you say really touched me. I guess I'm "semi-anonymous" too. But IslandScout is me just as Bulldog is you! I like hearing it put that way.

[aishah]

i agree with what bulldog posted, for the most part.

i can see a need for anonymity for reasons of safety (i have at different points in my life used pseudonyms and other ways of keeping myself anonymous to talk about things that it wasn't safe to talk about). but for the most part, i don't understand the purpose of participating in a discussion unless i'm being honest about myself. that doesn't necessarily have to mean revealing every detail of my life or giving people my address, but i've worked really hard to make a life where i can be who i am authentically. not wanting to give that up makes it difficult for me to understand why some people are so invested in remaining anonymous. it also makes it difficult to have an ongoing sense of dialogue or community with someone, when there is not much continuity in how they present themselves.

and i do think that it leads to a lack of authenticity and community accountability, sometimes. it seems like online spaces rife with anonymity tend to just be full of people blowing off steam (like 4chan, which is a place i've never really understood, to be honest).

maybe part of it for me is that i'm not interested in abstract, intellectual discussion for the sake of discussion. i want to talk about things that are rooted in and relevant to people's experiences in the world.

[Medusa]

In my opinion, more often than not, anonymity leads to lack of accountability and quite often seems to be used to talk smack about people or spew hatred, all the while pretending to have lofty, noble goals.

.

YES. A thousand times, yes!

I was thinking back to starting this site and the goal of transparency. I knew that starting this site and being completely open about who owned it and/or Moderated it might mean that people who had bad experiences with me or my posts in the past might not want to join due to that.

My hope was that being honest about owning this site and all of the intentions around how we were going to run it would help people feel more secure/safe or at least have an understanding that we didn't have anything to hide.

In a community such as this where we have people who have known of each other for years and even with new folks who don't have that frame of reference, I thought it was super important for people to know not only who owned the site but who was moderating.

I remember back on the Dash site some of the grief that happened when the "fruit basket" was created and people were feeling really distrustful about who was moderating them and whether or not that same moderator had participated in the discussion with them and then tapped them. We didn't want that here so all of the Mods have used their own screen names since day one. This hasn't always been pretty because it has meant that some of our Mods have been open to public attacks when someone got moderated and then wanted to take their anger out. Luckily, that hasn't been a consistent theme.

We are all somewhat anonymous under screen names but I think that tends to change as we build real time friendships and go to Reunions or meet people off site in real time space. Our persona is no longer just a screen name. We then have reputation, both real and perceived. People have expectations of how we are going to behave.

For example, I have met Bulldog in real time and have known her online for well over 10 years. I mostly know what she is about and how she operates. She is not anonymous to me so if she came on the site one day and started lamenting about how great Rush Limbaugh is or that she thinks that all kittens should be murdered, I would know that someone had tied her up and hijacked her account. :)

Bulldog has accountability as a community member with a long-standing presence here. If she suddenly popped off and posted something sexist, people are going to have a WTF? moment with her in a very different way than someone who was brand new and didn't have a history of railing against sexism.

Along with accountability, Bulldog doesn't have the ability (luxury to some, I'm sure) to talk smack about people or create havoc without serious repercussions because, again, she has real ties to this community and to real people here.

I think that people who do fucked up shit under "anonymous" screen names or on "anonymous" blogs want to do so because they don't want to/can't deal with the repercussions of their bad behavior. In other words, they don't want to be responsible for their words.
It's super sad when adults resort to that kind of stuff because I always feel like they know that what they are doing is wrong but are willing to do it if they think nobody knows it's them. I hate that kind of spineless shit because seriously, if you think someone is a big fucking doody-head then just *say* so instead of pretending to be a random person.

I have seen people do some really fucked up shit under the cloak of anonymity. From posting openly racist or misogynist stuff to insisting that people have STDs. I've seen people make wild claims about others under "anonymous" names while providing no proof in the hopes of damaging the other person's reputation or at least causing that person a lot of undue stress and heartache.
That kind of behavior is a way for someone to anonymously terrorize their target. A way to bully them without having to worry about being labeled a bully.

Again, it's a way to do really terrible, fucked up shit without having to take responsibility for it. And really? What kind of person does that kind of stuff? Generally, I think it's people who feel really powerless.

I think anonymity is good in times of voting, but not so much in communities like this where transparency is key to relationships and the health of the space.

[BullDog]

A thousand times yes back Medusa. The type of community that I want to be a part of is one where there is transparency and accountability. For those of us who have been around for any length of time, we have track records with each other and with the Admins/Mods. That can work for you or against you. If you keep your nose clean, no matter how outspoken you may be, then you will have credibility. If you are known for stirring shit or always being in the center of gossip, then that can potentially work against you when there are problems.

The whole notion of "special friends" getting away with murder couldn't be further from the truth, although I know the conspiracy theorists won't believe me or anyone else. Most people, including myself, have much tougher standards for family, friends and people they know, than they do with people they don't. More is expected of me because of my length of time in the community and some of the people I know in real life, not less. That's exactly the way I want it, and I do know many other people feel the same way.

[Metro]

Speaking only for myself, as someone new to BFP, I feel that in general a certain degree of anonymity is desirable online. Especially when that online persona has anything to do with one's specific sexual proclivities.

There are likely as many motivations as there are people on BFP for participating here and at whatever level they so choose. It is with that in mind that I attempt to measure my words and choose when, to whom, and how much or how little I disclose about myself. It's hard to gauge authenticity without in-person experiences -- and even then it takes a considerable amount of time and mutual effort to build meaningful, trusting relationships. This is my own reality.

That said, I am very appreciative of the time and contributions so many Planeteers make in earnest efforts to be known and to share their varied life experiences -- not the least of which are those of Admin and Moderators. I learn something new every day. There are some very wise and cool people here. :cool:

*THANK YOU*

[LaneyDoll]

I feel that in general a certain degree of anonymity is desirable online.


There is often times that I *ache* for a sock puppet account somewhere so that I can get true, unbiased opinions on something without it coming back to any of my online personas.

Facebook is my vanilla, family-friendly account so nothing goes on there.

FetLife is my kinky, more the "real" me, account BUT as a known person in my community, I have to keep in mind that respect etc is KEY.

And here, I know a few people in real life. So, for the sake of civility, I do not always post negative things; not that I have issues with people here but this world does cross into another.

So, where does that leave me when I truly need advice? Wishing I had a sock puppet account.

:sparklyheart:

[Lady_Di]

I made a conscious decision a long long time ago, to just be me here on the internet. And have met many here face to face, in real time. Found and lost love here, such is life. As for naming: I have always been a lady, even on my worst days and at the dash site, my name, 'Diane' was already taken. So I had to be a bit creative. I took what I have been known as since my SCA days, early 70's. Lady Di fits me, I used to say I was a Lady Di long before Lady Di hit the scene. Yes, I am older than most here. But I remember her as a very young lady. But I digress...

Before BF community, in other online communities I was Diane, plain and simple. Remembering being a moderator for several years, and being very conscious about just being true to my own self. For me, I got brave *or was that stupid.... according to my family, yes* about this and made a decision. To my own self be true. Truth is a precious thing. I choose to embrace something that was somehow foreign to me. My own name. Having always been called a nick name. Again, a conscious decision to embrace who and what I am. My real name, versus the nick name so many knew me as a child.

It is scary in this day and age to be so open. I keep much tight to my vest as they say, but I am very easy to find. But so is everyone, if they have half a brain. Secrets versus privacy, interesting subtle distinction. One in which whole volumes have been writ, and will be written. Oddly enough, my pen name is something few people know. I do that for several reasons, mostly in honor of my first really great university English teacher.

Anonymity certainly has its place. AA and Alanon have taught me much on that note. As always has been the case, discretion is the better part of valor. Restraint of tongue and pen as they say. I do know my tongue is positively raw from biting it so much. :shocking:

As for online names and safety, security. It is important to always protect yourself and your family. Honor is real. And words will come back to bite you in the arse, it is a truism. Yes, I have other gaming names, as I am an avid gamer and dual boxing is just more fun. Like any true addict, one is not enough of anything. But gaming is very much separate from our community, lest I happen to be gaming with ya~

Yes. I will be in recovery from gaming again, and will give up my gaming personas. I had kicked my gaming habit for 6 months, so I know I can do it. I had restarted gaming again when I had my surgery. But when I am just here, or facebook, blogging in the several places I do blog, I am just simply me. Warts and all. Di.

Interestingly, there is a whole new industry that has popped up, to clean up people's online shinnangins. Some folks have a lot all over the net they would like to not be there. Foot in mouth disease is running rampant. People can be so very cruel when they think no one will know who is saying what. Between that and mob mentality... it is as true today as it ever were

"Don't say nothing you would not be proud to be on the front page of the NY Times"

thanks mom, you are a very wise woman

and in this day and age, are there really any secrets any more?

oh yeah, the book The Secret

not such a secret, The Magic of Believing was written a long long time ago. Nothing is really new under the sun. People will still be people. Mean and opinionated, cruel and capable of some of the most amazing things, good, bad and indifferent. Only thing that has changed is the speed, the technology with which we do it all.

anyhows, good topic/thread
love the sock puppet reference, lol... made me giggle


enough of my ramblings and circuitous logic,
Di

[Point~Of~No~Return]

YES. A thousand times, yes!

I was thinking back to starting this site and the goal of transparency. I knew that starting this site and being completely open about who owned it and/or Moderated it might mean that people who had bad experiences with me or my posts in the past might not want to join due to that.

My hope was that being honest about owning this site and all of the intentions around how we were going to run it would help people feel more secure/safe or at least have an understanding that we didn't have anything to hide.

In a community such as this where we have people who have known of each other for years and even with new folks who don't have that frame of reference, I thought it was super important for people to know not only who owned the site but who was moderating.

I remember back on the Dash site some of the grief that happened when the "fruit basket" was created and people were feeling really distrustful about who was moderating them and whether or not that same moderator had participated in the discussion with them and then tapped them. We didn't want that here so all of the Mods have used their own screen names since day one. This hasn't always been pretty because it has meant that some of our Mods have been open to public attacks when someone got moderated and then wanted to take their anger out. Luckily, that hasn't been a consistent theme.

We are all somewhat anonymous under screen names but I think that tends to change as we build real time friendships and go to Reunions or meet people off site in real time space. Our persona is no longer just a screen name. We then have reputation, both real and perceived. People have expectations of how we are going to behave.

For example, I have met Bulldog in real time and have known her online for well over 10 years. I mostly know what she is about and how she operates. She is not anonymous to me so if she came on the site one day and started lamenting about how great Rush Limbaugh is or that she thinks that all kittens should be murdered, I would know that someone had tied her up and hijacked her account. :)

Bulldog has accountability as a community member with a long-standing presence here. If she suddenly popped off and posted something sexist, people are going to have a WTF? moment with her in a very different way than someone who was brand new and didn't have a history of railing against sexism.

Along with accountability, Bulldog doesn't have the ability (luxury to some, I'm sure) to talk smack about people or create havoc without serious repercussions because, again, she has real ties to this community and to real people here.

I think that people who do fucked up shit under "anonymous" screen names or on "anonymous" blogs want to do so because they don't want to/can't deal with the repercussions of their bad behavior. In other words, they don't want to be responsible for their words.
It's super sad when adults resort to that kind of stuff because I always feel like they know that what they are doing is wrong but are willing to do it if they think nobody knows it's them. I hate that kind of spineless shit because seriously, if you think someone is a big fucking doody-head then just *say* so instead of pretending to be a random person.

I have seen people do some really fucked up shit under the cloak of anonymity. From posting openly racist or misogynist stuff to insisting that people have STDs. I've seen people make wild claims about others under "anonymous" names while providing no proof in the hopes of damaging the other person's reputation or at least causing that person a lot of undue stress and heartache.
That kind of behavior is a way for someone to anonymously terrorize their target. A way to bully them without having to worry about being labeled a bully.

Again, it's a way to do really terrible, fucked up shit without having to take responsibility for it. And really? What kind of person does that kind of stuff? Generally, I think it's people who feel really powerless.

I think anonymity is good in times of voting, but not so much in communities like this where transparency is key to relationships and the health of the space.


well said!

[iamkeri1]

I don't know whether anonymity promotes ideas. I do know that there are often things I choose not to say, but would say if I could say it anonymously. I don't mean unkind things or rude things or racist things or anti-whatever things. I mean personal things, parts of me that I do not wish to reveal about myself even here in the relative anonymity of this site where I am known by a code name and where I know you and am known by you by my words only.

There are definetly times I wish I could post anonymously. I know we are not voting on this, but I vote yes.