Small Plane Crashes in Austin Tx

[Spirit Dancer]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1







NEW: Witness says she saw people hanging from windows, crying for help
NEW: "Criminal or terrorist activity" not indicated, Homeland Security spokesman says
A small plane crashed into a building in the Texas capital, an FAA official says
Firefighters, equipped with a ladder truck, are presently trying to fight the blaze
(CNN) -- The latest news as it comes in to CNN from the scene of the crash of a small plane in Austin, Texas. (All times are ET, one hour ahead of local Austin time.)

12:49 p.m.: The Internal Revenue Service in Dallas, Texas, told CNN that the building is a federal IRS outsourced building. It said 199 of its employees work there. The IRS said it thinks all employees are accounted for, but they are checking.

12:42 p.m.: The pilot of the plane had set his house on fire beforehand, stole the plane and crashed it intentionally, a federal official told CNN.

Are you there? Share your photos, video, stories with CNN

12:40 p.m.: Federal officials said two F-16 fighter jets were launched as a precaution after the crash, though terrorist intent was not indicated.

The FAA reported that the plane that crashed was a Cirrus SR 22 similar to this one.12:32 p.m.: Preliminary information indicates that the plane was a Cirrus SR 22, the FAA said. A Cirrus SR22 is a single-engine four-seat aircraft.

12:32 p.m.: The FAA said the plane departed Georgetown Municipal Airport, north of Austin, about 9:40 a.m., and that the pilot did not file a flight plan.

12:18 p.m.: Witnesses described an infernal scene that shook nearby buildings and sent fire and smoke bellowing into the sky. "I just saw smoke and flames," said CNN iReporter Mike Ernest. "I could not believe what I was seeing. It was just smoke and flames everywhere."


Video: Plane crashes into building RELATED TOPICS
Austin (Texas)
Accidents and Disasters
12:11 p.m.: Harry Evans of the Austin Fire Department said firefighters found "heavy fire destruction in and around the second floor ... lots of heat, lots of smoke, lots of fire."

12:05 p.m.: Two people were transported from the crash site to University Medical Center Brackenridge, said hospital spokeswoman Matilda Sanchez. She could not provide additional information. University Medical Center Brackenridge is the only Level 1 trauma center for adults in Austin.

12:03 p.m.: Cynthia Reed, who works in the building next to the one hit, told CNN she saw people who apparently were trapped. "They were hanging out the windows, screaming for help," she said.

12:02 p.m.: "At this time we have no reason to believe there is a nexus to criminal or terrorist activity," said Matt Chandler, spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security. "We are in the process of coordinating with state officials and other federal partners to gather more information and at this time we will defer additional questions to local officials and the FAA."

11:44 a.m.: Firefighters used two ladder trucks and other equipment to hose down the blaze at the building, which police said was located in the 9400 block of Research Boulevard. Traffic on Southbound U.S. 183, which is adjacent to the crash site, started to snarl as black smoke poured out of the seven-story building.

11:36 a.m.: A small airplane crashed into a building in Austin, Texas, Thursday morning, according to Lynn Lundsford of the Federal Aviation Administration.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just saw this on the news. Oh how sad that person, the pilot must have felt, to do this. My hat is off to the firefighters for putting out the fire, and the hot spots.

[Diva]

I'm watching the news right now.....

Fire is still going on.
The guy they think did this had a beef with the IRS (and they are housed in this building; and have approx 199 employees).
Also, earlier today, neighbors rescued this guy's wife and daughter from their burning house.

Last night, Mr. Steck evidently went balistic because he was having severe IRS issues, and Mrs. Steck took the daughter to a hotel, came back this morning and then the house caught fire.

Mr. Steck is the registered owner of the plane which crashed into the bldg, according to the FAA.

The IRS offices in question are the ones someone might visit when one is trying to work out tax problems with the IRS.

Plane was ~ according to witnesses ~ going full throttle when it hit the bldg. with about 92 gallons of fuel on board, hence the fireball.

There are 2 in the bldg taken to hospitals and 1 unaccounted for, which is a wonderment to me that there aren't MORE as it was at the beginning of the work day when the building would have been heavily occupied.

That's all I have for now.....

[Diva]

Evidently, there is a huge rant (manifesto~6 pages long) on Facebook about tax code, his (Joe Stack) treatment by attorneys and CPAs. It's rambling, the reporter is saying.

www.kxan.com

They have it on their website. This is our NBC Austin affiliate.

Wow.....it was signed: Joe Stack (1956-2010) 02/18/2010

That was eerie.

[Diva]

There is video from Kain Shinn on Facebook.....don't know if it's on the KXAN.com site.....

[Diva]

I should be a reporter....I love this chit. <smiling>

[Spirit Dancer]

I should be a reporter....I love this chit. <smiling>

Divalicious reporting live from Austin:happyjump:

[Daywalker]

I think his website with the letter is on this page too:


www.embeddedart.com


:|

:daywalker:

[WolfyOne]

I think his website with the letter is on this page too:


www.embeddedart.com


:|

:daywalker:



I was to late Day. They took the site offline because the FBI said so.

[Diva]

Yeah....just reported here that the FBI has taken it down, and instructed the TV station to take it down, as well.

[Diavolo]

I feel terrible for all the families who were affected by this guy's actions.

Not to veer this off course, but why when a white guy does it it's a crime but if he had been of a different ethnicity they would be calling it terrorism? It's terrorism, plain and simple. Home grown domestic terrorism. I call bullshit.

[Daywalker]

I was to late Day. They took the site offline because the FBI said so.


Well, I still had the tab open, and copy n pasted it into a document.
:glasses:
Anyone care to have it placed in here?
:|

:daywalker:

[Canela]

I agree, that is entirely a terroristic act...and all because he had problems with his taxes? Please.

My hunny was so worried...hys sister works with the IRS and thankfully, it was another site where her office is, not this particular one.

I am saddened to know that an american man would do such a thing...we have been conditioned to expect that from others not homegrown in the US, but this is almost as heinous as that Nichols guy in Oklahoma. Thankfully, there weren't as many casualities although even one is too many.

I too, missed the page (site) but I am watching the TXCN news in Austin while I work...

[dreadgeek]

Well, I still had the tab open, and copy n pasted it into a document.
:glasses:
Anyone care to have it placed in here?
:|

:daywalker:


It would be interesting to see.

Aj

[Canela]

Well, I still had the tab open, and copy n pasted it into a document.
:glasses:
Anyone care to have it placed in here?
:|

:daywalker:


I would like to see it, yes.

[Linus]

Uh.. guys... I wouldn't recommend posting it here. I don't think Jack and Medusa want the FBI visiting the site. I only suggest this as a caution.

[Daywalker]

[COLOR=Black][FONT=Arial]

:daywalker:





[B]****Edited by Admin****

Sorry folks, removed for legal reasons.

Thanks.

[Daywalker]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Black]Part Two:


:daywalker:


[B]****Edited by Admin****

Sorry folks, removed for legal reasons.

Thanks.

[I'mOneToo]

*closes eyes tightly*

[Diva]

Clearly this was not a terroist activity......not because of the ethnic ID of the pilot, but because he was clearly not stable.

No matter what...it's still 'bullshit'.....

[I'mOneToo]

I keep writing this and then deleting it. But I gotta say, after all...

I think the ethnicity of the perpetrator is not an issue.

Tim McVeigh was an American, and a terrorist.

I think I have been trained (by American media especially) to think of terrorism as being acts perpetrated by 'foreigners'.

Websters defines terrorism as:

"the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes."

This probably qualifies. And it is, bullshit. He could have written his letters and website and crawled in a hole and blown himself up with a grenade. But he chose to take as many as possible with him.

p.s. not picking on anyone's thoughts of the ethnicity of 'usual' terrorists.

[dreadgeek]

At present the full text is available at Huffington Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/18/joe-stack-statement-alleg_n_467539.html?page=2

I would argue that had this man been brown skinned and named Hassan, holding every other variable constant including his suicide note, this would be played in the media as a terrorist attack (even though, strictly speaking, it is not in that although he had political grievances, his act was not meant to influence the political process).

Cheers
Aj

[Rufusboi]

Evidently, there is a huge rant (manifesto~6 pages long) on Facebook about tax code, his (Joe Stack) treatment by attorneys and CPAs. It's rambling, the reporter is saying.

www.kxan.com

They have it on their website. This is our NBC Austin affiliate.

Wow.....it was signed: Joe Stack (1956-2010) 02/18/2010

That was eerie.





Why can't people get it though their heads....pay your taxes. You cannot out run or out smart the IRS. That's why we have the saying...death and taxes! It just annoys me that people bring this on themselves and then blame everyone else and victimize innocent people. Its just another person who can't take responsibility for their own choices.

Rufus

[Greyson]

I have mixed feelings regarding the concerns of posting the manifesto of Richard Andrew Stack. I suspect there is a file on many of us here somewhere in the Belly of the Beast, aka Government.

Are you are a person that may have participated in "radical social change" in the past 30 years or so? I bet your name can be found somewhere and you are held suspect. Did you ever attend a peaceful meeting about anything do with the human rights of being LGBTQI?

I am not an anarchist but I do not delude myself in believing if we play by the rules the FBI or any other government entity will not view me or others like me with a modicum of distrust and suspicion. Why? Because we dare to live differently and not hang our heads in shame about it.

I do not condone what this guy did. It is flat out wrong to take the lives of other living beings. However, I am bemused that the FBI is removing Stack's rant from public review.

[Rufusboi]

I concur. But I'm waiting for the Admins to chime in on this. If the FBI took it down and then made the TV Station take it down. I'm not comfortable drawing the wrong kind of attention to this site. I think if you want to post it on your own blog, then you make your own personal decision to expose yourself to whatever. </end Mod Thoughts>

Tim McVeigh = Terrorist. </end June's opinion>



I hear what you are saying, June. But my first thought was that it is a shame we are afraid of out own government.

Rufus

[Linus]

I do not condone what this guy did. It is flat out wrong to take the lives of other living beings. However, I am bemused that the FBI is removing Stack's rant from public review.


Actually, that's normal. It's considered evidence in an ongoing investigation. Until the investigation is closed and everything verified, they will likely clamp down on publication of stuff (it also is for protection of his family as well).

[Linus]

I hear what you are saying, June. But my first thought was that it is a shame we are afraid of out own government.

Rufus

If the gov't came to you with a warrant and said that you had to remove it, is it being afraid or being respectful of the law? I suspect that NBC got that (and I wouldn't be surprised if Huff gets it too).

[Greyson]

Actually, that's normal. It's considered evidence in an ongoing investigation. Until the investigation is closed and everything verified, they will likely clamp down on publication of stuff (it also is for protection of his family as well).

Linus, yes, it is considered to be "normal" procedure but I do not believe that every action an entity of authority takes is necessary. Please do not take my post as a offense about you or your analysis. I have a great deal of respect for your ability.

[Linus]

Linus, yes, it is considered to be "normal" procedure but I do not believe that every action an entity of authority takes is necessary. Please do not take my post as a offense about you or your analysis. I have a great deal of respect for your ability.

Oh no. I wouldn't take offense to a valid opinion or point of view. It is valid. When one looks at it, he's dead. It's not like they can prosecute him and there's nothing -- really -- in the note that might potentially do something bad or harm.

:)

[Diva]

Why can't people get it though their heads....pay your taxes. You cannot out run or out smart the IRS. That's why we have the saying...death and taxes! It just annoys me that people bring this on themselves and then blame everyone else and victimize innocent people. Its just another person who can't take responsibility for their own choices.

Rufus



Indeed. And the sad thing is, his wife and daughter are left to deal with this mess he has created.

[Diva]

There was a brief statement made by our [not so] illustrious governor.....and maybe I didn't hear correctly, but it ALmost sounded as though he WANTED it to be a terrorist......he was making statements that blew things out of proportion SO much, I wanted to scream "Go listen to your news, man!".



:|

[Linus]

There was a brief statement made by our [not so] illustrious governor.....and maybe I didn't hear correctly, but it ALmost sounded as though he WANTED it to be a terrorist......he was making statements that blew things out of proportion SO much, I wanted to scream "Go listen to your news, man!".



:|

It's interesting because I didn't want it to be one.

I think, however, your Governor wants a reason to point fingers and be able to enforce that "I told you so.."

[Diva]

It's interesting because I didn't want it to be one.

I think, however, your Governor wants a reason to point fingers and be able to enforce that "I told you so.."



Exactly. .............

[Canela]

The entire thing is a tragedy.
Innocent lives have been lost.
I am saddened by all this.

[SuperFemme]

It is my understanding that he burned down his own home before heading to the airport. Probably had a tax lien on it. What a tragedy.

[Diva]

It is my understanding that he burned down his own home before heading to the airport. Probably had a tax lien on it. What a tragedy.




This is true..

[~Bo]

I think he was the only one killed. No one else has died but the fucktard. Yay!

[AtLast]

OK, someone please tell me that none of our Austin members were hurt in this? Actually, I don't want anyone hurt, but, Bo's fucktard statement makes a lot of sense to me.... so tired of these kinds of stories.

[AtLast]

I have mixed feelings regarding the concerns of posting the manifesto of Richard Andrew Stack. I suspect there is a file on many of us here somewhere in the Belly of the Beast, aka Government.

Are you are a person that may have participated in "radical social change" in the past 30 years or so? I bet your name can be found somewhere and you are held suspect. Did you ever attend a peaceful meeting about anything do with the human rights of being LGBTQI?

I am not an anarchist but I do not delude myself in believing if we play by the rules the FBI or any other government entity will not view me or others like me with a modicum of distrust and suspicion. Why? Because we dare to live differently and not hang our heads in shame about it.

I do not condone what this guy did. It is flat out wrong to take the lives of other living beings. However, I am bemused that the FBI is removing Stack's rant from public review.

Reminds me of knowing I have more than one FBI file.... The third was started due to my seeing a woman divorcing a man that was being considered for a Special Agent post! I wondered who the hell those people lurking around were..... The second was after being arrested in an anti-Vietnam War protest. The first was for attendance at a Chavez rally. LOL.. what is really funny is that I got to read the files because of my partner's husband getting that FBI job!!!


Yup, one can end up having a file in quite a few instances. No, I don't condone this man's actions at all.

Remember Tricky Dicky? :nixon:

[~Bo]

Diva...........was this anywhere near your place?

[Goofy]

Diva...........was this anywhere near your place?

Bo, it's about 15 miles or so north of Diva's

[blush]

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/leaders-react-to-the-plane-crash

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/the-plane-shot-right-at-the-building

[I'mOneToo]

If this was so easy, for a private pilot to do something like this, how long will it be before a real terrorist cell figures that out? It's like we give them a road map.

CNN has just reported that it's being termed an "act of rage" and not terrorism. Not sure if that is true or not, just that they have said it now. Also, that they have found a body inside the building. It's not clear to me if they have finished going through the building. So many people in there, and while work hours were in the full throes. Hope there are no more found inside.

[~Bo]

Bo, it's about 15 miles or so north of Diva's




Thanks, bro. Man....this bullshit is getting a lil too close. :explode:

[Goofy]

They haven't finished going through the building. The area around the impact site is unstable according to the local news about 15 minutes ago.

[Goofy]

Thanks, bro. Man....this bullshit is getting a lil too close. :explode:

Tell me about it...

[socialjustice_fsu]

Has anyone heard from "WickedPassion" (Mitch)...the last I heard hy was still in Austin and was a fire-fighter, EMT?? I don't think he has jumped over to the BFP yet. Probably still looking for a woman that's not bat-shit crazy. I know he is a first responder.
If anyone hears from hym...would you post it please?
And, yes ~Bo, this bullshit is getting way too close.

[Gemme]

I'm watching the news right now.....

Fire is still going on.
The guy they think did this had a beef with the IRS (and they are housed in this building; and have approx 199 employees).
Also, earlier today, neighbors rescued this guy's wife and daughter from their burning house.

Last night, Mr. Steck evidently went balistic because he was having severe IRS issues, and Mrs. Steck took the daughter to a hotel, came back this morning and then the house caught fire.

Mr. Steck is the registered owner of the plane which crashed into the bldg, according to the FAA.

The IRS offices in question are the ones someone might visit when one is trying to work out tax problems with the IRS.

Plane was ~ according to witnesses ~ going full throttle when it hit the bldg. with about 92 gallons of fuel on board, hence the fireball.

There are 2 in the bldg taken to hospitals and 1 unaccounted for, which is a wonderment to me that there aren't MORE as it was at the beginning of the work day when the building would have been heavily occupied.

That's all I have for now.....



It is my understanding that he burned down his own home before heading to the airport. Probably had a tax lien on it. What a tragedy.


So....and please forgive me as I have not read every link about this...so, what I am hearing is that a man has an issue with taxes, the IRS, etc and he decides he's going to do something about it. He's going to set his home on fire and go slam himself and his small engine plane into the IRS building, hoping to hurt the IRS like he feels like he's been hurt. And he does. He sets his home on fire, with his WIFE and DAUGHTER inside???? Did he not know they were there? Please tell me that I am misinterpreting the situation. :blink:

[Goofy]

So....and please forgive me as I have not read every link about this...so, what I am hearing is that a man has an issue with taxes, the IRS, etc and he decides he's going to do something about it. He's going to set his home on fire and go slam himself and his small engine plane into the IRS building, hoping to hurt the IRS like he feels like he's been hurt. And he does. He sets his home on fire, with his WIFE and DAUGHTER inside???? Did he not know they were there? Please tell me that I am misinterpreting the situation. :blink:

I think they're still sorting details. I've heard (at least) 2 different stories regarding the house fire...the 1st is that he set fire to the home knowing his wife and daughter were inside. The 2nd was that he took his daughter to a hotel around 2am (there was no mention of his wife with this scenario). The local news had just started reporting on the house fire when the plane hit the Echelon building.



Has anyone heard from "WickedPassion" (Mitch)...the last I heard hy was still in Austin and was a fire-fighter, EMT?? I don't think he has jumped over to the BFP yet. Probably still looking for a woman that's not bat-shit crazy. I know he is a first responder.
If anyone hears from hym...would you post it please?
And, yes ~Bo, this bullshit is getting way too close.

I haven't heard from Mitch, but from what I understand, no fire fighters, EMTs or police officers have been reported as injured. But I'll let you know if I hear anything.

[Rufusboi]

If the gov't came to you with a warrant and said that you had to remove it, is it being afraid or being respectful of the law? I suspect that NBC got that (and I wouldn't be surprised if Huff gets it too).

I was referring to people being afraid on this site of posting something copied from the web. It was just a thought....

R

[wolfwalker]

I have read his rant as some have called it. I have read what is being said here. I hope that you never have a run in with the IRS or another govt. agency. I, as a self employed contractor can understand what he is saying completely.

I truly hope no one else dies as a result' but this man is a brave american who has fought to be heard by a govt. that does not listen to or care about its people. His act was againist a govt. completely out of control and run by big business. greed is what it is all about. if you get in the way. tough, they will roll over you with a steamroller.

you have the right and are implored by the constitution, to rise up against a govt. out of control and this govt. is certainly that.

I wonder what some of you would have said back in 1776. when brave americans rose up against taxation without representation? would you have considered them brave americans or terrorists?


govt. works for the people when they fear the people. this govt. knows that most americans are sheep. that is evident by some remarks here. But they fear the wolves who will stand and fight. hence the FBI trying to shut down his posting.


It is another sad day in a long history of govt. gone bad.

love my country but i fear its govt.

wolfwalker

[Goofy]

I have read his rant as some have called it. I have read what is being said here. I hope that you never have a run in with the IRS or another govt. agency. I, as a self employed contractor can understand what he is saying completely.

I truly hope no one else dies as a result' but this man is a brave american who has fought to be heard by a govt. that does not listen to or care about its people. His act was againist a govt. completely out of control and run by big business. greed is what it is all about. if you get in the way. tough, they will roll over you with a steamroller.

you have the right and are implored by the constitution, to rise up against a govt. out of control and this govt. is certainly that.

I wonder what some of you would have said back in 1776. when brave americans rose up against taxation without representation? would you have considered them brave americans or terrorists?


govt. works for the people when they fear the people. this govt. knows that most americans are sheep. that is evident by some remarks here. But they fear the wolves who will stand and fight. hence the FBI trying to shut down his posting.


It is another sad day in a long history of govt. gone bad.

love my country but i fear its govt.

wolfwalker

A "brave American"? Really? I'm sorry, but I see him as a coward at the very least. He posted a "rant" on a website, lit his house on fire (possibly with his family inside)and flew a plane into a building. There are many different and better ways to fight. He endangered the lives of countless people and for what? To be heard? Well now no one can hear him, since he was most assuredly killed with this incident.

I can't find all of my words right now as this has me SO pissed off, but perhaps I will be back when I find them.

[blush]

you have the right and are implored by the constitution, to rise up against a govt. out of control and this govt. is certainly that.

I wonder what some of you would have said back in 1776. when brave americans rose up against taxation without representation? would you have considered them brave americans or terrorists?



wolfwalker

You're kidding, right? HE SET HIS FAMILY'S HOUSE ON FIRE. He committed an act of terrorism against office people who HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM.

Don't even compare it to 1776. They rose up against the British SOLDIERS, not their own families. I doubt anyone in that building was packing heat this morning in case a PLANE CRASHED INTO THE BUILDING. I doubt his family was packed and ready to go in case Dad got a yen to burn the place down to "prove his point to the IRS."

And then he killed himself and left his family to deal with his mess.

[Diavolo]

I have read his rant as some have called it. I have read what is being said here. I hope that you never have a run in with the IRS or another govt. agency. I, as a self employed contractor can understand what he is saying completely.

I truly hope no one else dies as a result' but this man is a brave american who has fought to be heard by a govt. that does not listen to or care about its people. His act was againist a govt. completely out of control and run by big business. greed is what it is all about. if you get in the way. tough, they will roll over you with a steamroller.

you have the right and are implored by the constitution, to rise up against a govt. out of control and this govt. is certainly that.

I wonder what some of you would have said back in 1776. when brave americans rose up against taxation without representation? would you have considered them brave americans or terrorists?


govt. works for the people when they fear the people. this govt. knows that most americans are sheep. that is evident by some remarks here. But they fear the wolves who will stand and fight. hence the FBI trying to shut down his posting.


It is another sad day in a long history of govt. gone bad.

love my country but i fear its govt.

wolfwalker

Brave? Not so much.
premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
By definition this guy was a domestic homegrown terrorist. No different than McVeigh. His purpose was political, premeditated and he his targets were noncombatant. Call it what it is. The workers who went to work this morning trying to feed their own families were innocent victims. Not tools in some great master plan. Sometimes terrorism is a crime. This was a crime which is why the FBI is involved. McVeigh committed a crime. The underwear dude committed a crime.

A wise friend once said that the insanity defense required the inability to distinguish the consequence of actions. Or the authorship of a manifesto. Word.

I am a sole proprietor and the Feds do get up my ass from time to time. And I work it out like an adult. I'd rather cross swords with the IRS than have the asshats at Chase or American Express darken my doorway every single time.

[Goofy]

And another thing...this guy owned his own plane for crying out loud! If he was so destitute to the masses and "fighting against the government" then why not SELL THE FRIGGIN PLANE to, at the very least, off set some of his tax liability?

[~Bo]

I have read his rant as some have called it. I have read what is being said here. I hope that you never have a run in with the IRS or another govt. agency. I, as a self employed contractor can understand what he is saying completely.

I truly hope no one else dies as a result' but this man is a brave american who has fought to be heard by a govt. that does not listen to or care about its people. His act was againist a govt. completely out of control and run by big business. greed is what it is all about. if you get in the way. tough, they will roll over you with a steamroller.

you have the right and are implored by the constitution, to rise up against a govt. out of control and this govt. is certainly that.

I wonder what some of you would have said back in 1776. when brave americans rose up against taxation without representation? would you have considered them brave americans or terrorists?


govt. works for the people when they fear the people. this govt. knows that most americans are sheep. that is evident by some remarks here. But they fear the wolves who will stand and fight. hence the FBI trying to shut down his posting.


It is another sad day in a long history of govt. gone bad.

love my country but i fear its govt.

wolfwalker




Are you kidding me!!! Goofy is right. This is the MOST cowardice act someone can do. I can only hope and pray that the only life he took was his own pathetic one.

[Goofy]

My head is seriously ready to explode.

I can not honestly see how ANYONE would think that this guy was courageous. As far as I am concerned, he took the easy way out. He carried out a very heinous, very public and very calculated suicide, nothing more. If he truly wanted to “fight” against the government, there are so many better, and more effective ways to go about it.

It was fortunate that he did not harm more people. That building housed far many more than the 200 or so the IRS employed. He may have “targeted the government”, but what he actually did was target a group of people holding down jobs in a shitty economy to feed their families.

His business lost it’s California license no less than 3 different times for non payment of taxes, or not filing them at all. By his own admission, he got together with friends to figure out ways to get around paying/filing his taxes. He took a gamble and he lost.

So, instead of standing up and working out a way to pay what he owed, he folded. He set his house (in a very nice suburb of Austin) on fire, drove his car to the municipal airport, got in HIS PRIVATE PLANE and flew it into a building full of people trying to make ends meet and take care of their responsibilities.

Yeah, that’s going to have a HUGE effect on the way the IRS does business.

Maybe now there will be further restrictions on who can own/operate private planes. I’m SURE that was the intent. <insert sarcasm and eye roll here>

Now his family has to deal with the fall out. How unfortunate for them, truly.

And please don’t throw the “fighting the government” rhetoric at me. I am proud to have been a US Army Soldier that fought for my country. And now I am a US Army Veteran fighting for my rights, and those of others, against the system.

We’re not perfect, and never will be. We are human. But there are far better ways of dealing with injustice, perceived or not, than flying a plane into a building of unarmed and unsuspecting people.

I guess I found my words.

[Diva]

Here is what I have been hearing (pretty consistently) throughout the day....

*Mr. Stack had evidently had 'issues' with the IRS since he was a young adult. (He died today at the age of 53.)

*Mr. Stack had planned this act for a while, as is evident by the rant he posted.

*Mr. Stack was flying VFR, meaning he did not need to file a flight plan, which would be necessary for poor visual conditions. He waited for a sunny, clear day.

*The building in question houses a branch of the IRS which deals with folks like Mr. Stack who was not paying his taxes. When it gets past the point where they garnish one's wages or puts a lien on bank accounts, then one visits the IRS in this building. Mr. Stack knew this building.

*Last night, Mr. Stack "went balistic" and Mrs. Stack checked herself (and her daughter, Mr. Stack's step~daughter) into a hotel. When they came back to the house, the story I'm hearing consistently is that when they drove up, they saw the house was on fire, saying, "That's my house! That's my house!" at which point some neighbors took the two to their home.

*Mr. Stack flew so low his wing clipped the windshield of a Lexus just before he crashed into the lower 2 floors of the Echelon Building at Mopac and Hwy 183. The plane was banking, wings nearly perpendicular to the ground and a retaining wall outside the building broke some of the impact.

*The people inside the building got out pretty quickly, some hollering, "Follow my voice!" as the building was dark and smoke~filled.

*There was a fatality within the building, a man by the name of Hunter (not sure if that's his first of last name). He and his wife both work in that building. They live in Cedar Park, NW of Austin (home of Puplove and Oiler).

*Mr. Stack, they are assuming, is dead, too. And because of the instability of the situation, his body is still in the plane.



All of that being said, no matter WHAT kind of government we have (or DON'T have), this was NOT the act of a "brave", courageous, strong, sane man. And that's all I have to say to address such a ridiculous notion.

I hurt now for his wife and step~child, who will, no doubt, feel the shame of his acts of irresponsibility. I also hurt for the man's family who went to work like any other day, doing his job, unsuspecting he would be killed by a lunatic with a pilot's license.

[Diva]

PS Bo....nope...not close to me.....I'm in SE Austin...this happened in NW Austin.

It was closer to blush.

And whoever asked about WP, I've not heard from that guy in quite some time.....I'm pretty sure he has fallen off the face of the earth...... ;)

[IrishGrrl]

As an aside. I wonder if this guy was an active voter. I mean..if we REALLY want CHANGE? Get off your lazy ass and VOTE people!!!

Do you know what a low percentage of our country actually votes?? It's insane..

If you dont vote...dont BITCH!!


Irish

[Daywalker]

Sorry folks, I got in late last night and just got up.
:hospital-snoopy:

Thanks for removing the post/s.
:|
Didn't mean to draw icky FBI eyeballs.
:woodchop:

Carry on.
:coffee:

:daywalker:

[wolfwalker]

and the sheep march on.

what about the 6000 plus soldiers dead.plus all those who will never return to a normal life. who come home from war and end up homeless and uncared for? hmmmmm anyone out there trying to stop wars that make no sense?

amazing, just simply amazing.

you all believe every detail put out there by a govt. known to lie,cheat and steal from their people.

also amazing how quickly people will jump on and defend people from other countries taking action against their govt. but when an american does it. its home grown terrorism.

you all need to open your eyes and start looking at whats going on right here in this country. but you won't do that till the govt. can no longer keep you afloat and docile. when shit starts breaking down and you are affected. long as they keep you fat and happy, yup its homegrown terrorism. till you are the one getting fucked over. then you too will become a home grown terrorist.

but you won;t call it that then, then it will be about you and your families survival.

[~Bo]

and the sheep march on.

what about the 6000 plus soldiers dead.plus all those who will never return to a normal life. who come home from war and end up homeless and uncared for? hmmmmm anyone out there trying to stop wars that make no sense?

amazing, just simply amazing.

you all believe every detail put out there by a govt. known to lie,cheat and steal from their people.

also amazing how quickly people will jump on and defend people from other countries taking action against their govt. but when an american does it. its home grown terrorism.

you all need to open your eyes and start looking at whats going on right here in this country. but you won't do that till the govt. can no longer keep you afloat and docile. when shit starts breaking down and you are affected. long as they keep you fat and happy, yup its homegrown terrorism. till you are the one getting fucked over. then you too will become a home grown terrorist.

but you won;t call it that then, then it will be about you and your families survival.




There is nothing.....and I mean NOTHING that can justify what this asswipe did.

Come on!!! Killing innocent people because you're pissed at the gov't. No excuse in the world for that. EVER!!

[Diva]

and the sheep march on.

what about the 6000 plus soldiers dead.plus all those who will never return to a normal life. who come home from war and end up homeless and uncared for? hmmmmm anyone out there trying to stop wars that make no sense?

amazing, just simply amazing.

you all believe every detail put out there by a govt. known to lie,cheat and steal from their people.

also amazing how quickly people will jump on and defend people from other countries taking action against their govt. but when an american does it. its home grown terrorism.

you all need to open your eyes and start looking at whats going on right here in this country. but you won't do that till the govt. can no longer keep you afloat and docile. when shit starts breaking down and you are affected. long as they keep you fat and happy, yup its homegrown terrorism. till you are the one getting fucked over. then you too will become a home grown terrorist.

but you won;t call it that then, then it will be about you and your families survival.


You don't, by any chance, own a plane, do you?


:|

[Goofy]

and the sheep march on.

what about the 6000 plus soldiers dead.plus all those who will never return to a normal life. who come home from war and end up homeless and uncared for? hmmmmm anyone out there trying to stop wars that make no sense?

amazing, just simply amazing.

you all believe every detail put out there by a govt. known to lie,cheat and steal from their people.

also amazing how quickly people will jump on and defend people from other countries taking action against their govt. but when an american does it. its home grown terrorism.

you all need to open your eyes and start looking at whats going on right here in this country. but you won't do that till the govt. can no longer keep you afloat and docile. when shit starts breaking down and you are affected. long as they keep you fat and happy, yup its homegrown terrorism. till you are the one getting fucked over. then you too will become a home grown terrorist.

but you won;t call it that then, then it will be about you and your families survival.

Nothing about my family's survival will EVER involve killing innocent people. NOTHING. Sorry, not my way of getting things done.

And nothing you can say will convince me that this guy was a "brave American". He was a C O W A R D

So I guess the only thing left to do is to put my sheep suit on the next time I walk out my door. I don't like to wear it in the house because I'm so fat and happy that the dogs think I'm dinner.

Baaaaaa

:|

[blush]

and the sheep march on.

what about the 6000 plus soldiers dead.plus all those who will never return to a normal life. who come home from war and end up homeless and uncared for? hmmmmm anyone out there trying to stop wars that make no sense?

amazing, just simply amazing.

you all believe every detail put out there by a govt. known to lie,cheat and steal from their people.

also amazing how quickly people will jump on and defend people from other countries taking action against their govt. but when an american does it. its home grown terrorism.

you all need to open your eyes and start looking at whats going on right here in this country. but you won't do that till the govt. can no longer keep you afloat and docile. when shit starts breaking down and you are affected. long as they keep you fat and happy, yup its homegrown terrorism. till you are the one getting fucked over. then you too will become a home grown terrorist.

but you won;t call it that then, then it will be about you and your families survival.

I'm done with you. Perhaps it is because this is my hometown. Perhaps it is because it happened minutes from my child's school.

This is not about what the government did or did not do to him. This is about handling it like a grown ass adult and not taking it out on defenseless, innocent people who have a reasonable expectation that they can go to work and not have a plane intentionally rammed into their building.

Fat and happy? Didn't he have a private plane? He sounds pretty fat and happy and white to me.

You, however, are baiting this thread with your nonsense.

[blush]

Nothing about my family's survival will EVER involve killing innocent people. NOTHING. Sorry, not my way of getting things done.

And nothing you can say will convince me that this guy was a "brave American". He was a C O W A R D

So I guess the only thing left to do is to put my sheep suit on the next time I walk out my door. I don't like to wear it in the house because I'm so fat and happy that the dogs think I'm dinner.

Baaaaaa

:|

coughblacksheepcough

[wolfwalker]

I'm done with you. Perhaps it is because this is my hometown. Perhaps it is because it happened minutes from my child's school.

This is not about what the government did or did not do to him. This is about handling it like a grown ass adult and not taking it out on defenseless, innocent people who have a reasonable expectation that they can go to work and not have a plane intentionally rammed into their building.

Fat and happy? Didn't he have a private plane? He sounds pretty fat and happy and white to me.

You, however, are baiting this thread with your nonsense.

baiting??? hardly. I am speaking what i know to be true.oh wqait, thats right if someone does not agree with you. its baiting. remember the first amendment?

[Dylan]

As an aside. I wonder if this guy was an active voter. I mean..if we REALLY want CHANGE? Get off your lazy ass and VOTE people!!!

Do you know what a low percentage of our country actually votes?? It's insane..

If you dont vote...dont BITCH!!


Irish

Yeah, 'cuz voting works


Isn't That How We Ended Up With George W's First Reign Of Terror?,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Come on!!! Killing innocent people because you're pissed at the gov't. No excuse in the world for that. EVER!!

Aren't we doing this right now?

In Iraq, Afghanistan, and covertly in other places in the world?

Didn't we do this in Libya, Israel, India, Guatemala, Colombia, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Palestinian terretories, Iran, Syria, Germany, Russia, well...just name a country besides England and maybe Canada


Dylan

[IrishGrrl]

Yeah, 'cuz voting works


Isn't That How We Ended Up With George W's First Reign Of Terror?,
Dylan

True.
But what about the numbers of people who came out and voted for Obama?

[Dylan]

And just for the record, this type of plane costs less than most new cars. It's not some 'high on the hog' luxury liner. It's a cheap little plane.

And there's NO 'assumed safety' when going to work...just as there's no 'assumed safety' when getting into One's car and driving on the roads.


Dylan

[Dylan]

True.
But what about the numbers of people who came out and voted for Obama?

Maybe it was the high cost of water these days that drove people from their homes and into voting booths


I Mean, Bush Really Did Fuck Things Up, No?,
Dylan

[Goofy]

baiting??? hardly. I am speaking what i know to be true.oh wqait, thats right if someone does not agree with you. its baiting. remember the first amendment?

You mean the 1st amendment that states "Congress shall pass no law...."?


And just for the record, this type of plane costs less than most new cars. It's not some 'high on the hog' luxury liner. It's a cheap little plane.

And there's NO 'assumed safety' when going to work...just as there's no 'assumed safety' when getting into One's car and driving on the roads.


Dylan

His plane, a piper cherokee, averages $30-40,000 for a plane that's 30 years old. Don't forget to add insurance, maintenance and storage fees since it obviously was not parked in his driveway. Maybe not a luxury liner, but far from cheap.

So everyday you go to work, you expect someone with a grievance to fly a plane into your place of work? I know I sure don't. I think it's fairly safe to say that most people don't have that fear.

[~Bo]

baiting??? hardly. I am speaking what i know to be true.oh wqait, thats right if someone does not agree with you. its baiting. remember the first amendment?




OK. So let me get this straight. You believe what this ass did was ok? And you believe it was ok because he was pissed at the US Gov't.

And are you saying that you would do the same thing if you got made enough? Cause that's what it's sounding like to me.

I wonder if you'd feel ok about this if it was YOUR family member who was one of his victims.

[Diavolo]

Aren't we doing this right now?

In Iraq, Afghanistan, and covertly in other places in the world?

Didn't we do this in Libya, Israel, India, Guatemala, Colombia, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Palestinian terretories, Iran, Syria, Germany, Russia, well...just name a country besides England and maybe Canada


Dylan

It's wrong to kill innocent people here and it's wrong to kill them in other countries. At no point is the person who perpetrates such a crime "brave" or "a hero". Unfortunately a certain portion of this country watches a supposedly fair and balanced bunch of clowns fabricating news events every day. Their leaders seem to be a racist bigoted radio announcer and a deranged television host who sounds more like a 8 year old cry baby than anything else. According to those guys it's everybody's fault but our own for our own circumstance. It's the communists. It's the terrorists. It's the liberal media. It's the Muslims. It's the Hollywood actors. I heard Glenn Beck blame Tim freaking Robbins the other day. As long as we propagate hate and fail to embrace responsibility we will continue down this path. That includes taking responsibility for Blackwater and every one of those criminals going to jail for their crimes. That means rogue service personnel being held responsible for their actions. That means CIA and FBI operatives being held responsible for their actions and that means the politicians and bureaucrats that authorize that sort of behavior being held accountable for it.

That being said, I believe the Obama Administration had an amazing chance to hold a lot of criminals accountable for their actions and pussed out. I think Dick Cheney is a war criminal, I think John Yoo is a war criminal and I think Donald Rumsfeld is a war criminal. And that's just the short list.

[Dylan]

His plane, a piper cherokee, averages $30-40,000 for a plane that's 30 years old. Don't forget to add insurance, maintenance and storage fees since it obviously was not parked in his driveway. Maybe not a luxury liner, but far from cheap.

So everyday you go to work, you expect someone with a grievance to fly a plane into your place of work? I know I sure don't. I think it's fairly safe to say that most people don't have that fear.

The numbers I saw on used planes were much lower than the ones you found.

Hit by a plane? Not necessarily. But an 'assumption of safety'? No, I don't have an assumption of safety at my job. When I worked in construction, an 'assumption of safety' would get me killed, missing a limb, burned, missing a finger, etc. There's no 'assumption of safety'. I also worked with criminals. So, no...no assumption of safety there. I also worked with a number of unstable alcoholics...no safety there. There's no safety when you're working 50 stories up in the air, with unstable alcoholic criminals handling hot tar at temperatures over 600 degrees Fahrenheit.

Mahhh Woman who has a completely different type of job than construction has absolutely NO 'assumption of safety' and very often runs the risk of suffering the retribution of some pissed off citizen. Bomb threats in her building are quite frequent. She has even had to have police escorts as have many of her coworkers. Some of her coworkers have even had 24hour police protection. My girlfriend has also been evacuated from many government buildings other than the one she works in because of bomb threats. So, no...no assumption of safety.

Many government employees who deal with people's lives DON'T have an 'assumption of safety' at their jobs.

Nor do many hospital workers, police officers, emts, fire fighters, car mechanics, most factory workers, electricians, the ever popular postal workers, etc. Health insurance workers are also targeted frequently.

A friend of mine who works for a social justice non-profit also has been evacuated three times in the last two weeks by bomb threats. The two weeks before that, her building was on lockdown because of a shooter. So, no...no assumption of safety.

And then we get to courthouse workers including judges, lawyers, baliffs, etc who are often the targets of retaliation from pissed off citizens.

And the ever popular airport workers who are now dealing with bombs in shoes and underpants.

Human resources workers are also targeted frequently, because they mess with people's lives.

And this wasn't the IRS building where people just plug your 1040 return numbers into some database somewhere. These were the IRS workers who freeze your accounts. These are government workers who really disrupt people's lives, so I can assume (based on my girlfriend's experience as a government worker who disrupts people's lives but NOT to the extent of the IRS) that this isn't the first time these folks have dealt with some sort of retaliation.

When you're in a position in which you have control over people's lives, you can expect that people are going to get reallllly pissed off. Yeah, planes don't fly into buildings everyday (but loooorrrrrrdy be when they do, people flip the fuck out), but that doesn't mean that retaliation isn't undertaken everyday...especially toward those who have power and control over other people's finances, health, welfare, food, children, families, housing, livelihood, etc.


Dylan

[wolfwalker]

OK. So let me get this straight. You believe what this ass did was ok? And you believe it was ok because he was pissed at the US Gov't.

And are you saying that you would do the same thing if you got made enough? Cause that's what it's sounding like to me.

I wonder if you'd feel ok about this if it was YOUR family member who was one of his victims.

my family members have been victims of violence. my mother was shot and killed in front of me when i was 4 yrs. old. my father being a police officer was shot and almost died protecting the citizens of this country. he also fought in ww2. i have family members who were killed and some injuried doing their jobs.

that being said, i did not act out in violence as a result. any more questions?

[Ashlea?]

Aren't we doing this right now?

In Iraq, Afghanistan, and covertly in other places in the world?

Didn't we do this in Libya, Israel, India, Guatemala, Colombia, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Palestinian terretories, Iran, Syria, Germany, Russia, well...just name a country besides England and maybe Canada


Dylan

Amen, someone finally said it.

But wait..

Are you all not looking at the real glitch behind this?
Here is the Pilots manifesto
http://www.benpadiah.com/otherstuff/JoeStack.pdf

If you have no idea what he is talking about, man oh man wake up and smell the epic shit storm comin. Your government owns you.

Scream conspiracy theorist all you want, its not a theory with proof :http://mirror.wikileaks.info/

[Dude]

This guy really showed them ,didn't he?

Leaving his wife and daughter with absolutely nothing, I guess he showed them too.

He will be remembered as the nutcase who flew into the IRS building in Austin and left his family with zilch.
Nothing more.

Similar to the nut who bulldozed his house so the bank would not get it.
(of course he didn't harm anyone so it really does not compare except in terms of the mentality)
Cry baby men who cant endure reality.
Pathetic losers if you ask me.
Poor baby ,he was surely gonna lose his plane.
How grandiose must his thinking have been to think his pound would do a fuckin thing?

The IRS has this little thing called a payment plan ( lucky for me)
Of course I hated them for having to pay all that money but
mostly I hated myself for getting myself in that mess to begin with.

I feel awful for his family and the innocent victims.

deranged? yes
hero ? as far from that as you can get in my book

[Ashlea?]

Aren't we chipper?

Never called him a hero, but you apparently are one of those "I'll shh and pay the unlawful taxes, lordy lordy don't haul me away" types, so I won't continue arguing.

Hurts getting fucked by the iron dildo of a government.

[~Bo]

How any of you can condone this act of violence in any way, shape or form is ridiculous.

And frankly a little scary.

[~Bo]

my family members have been victims of violence. my mother was shot and killed in front of me when i was 4 yrs. old. my father being a police officer was shot and almost died protecting the citizens of this country. he also fought in ww2. i have family members who were killed and some injuried doing their jobs.

that being said, i did not act out in violence as a result. any more questions?



Yeah....how bout my question of if you think what he did was ok because he was mad at the gov't?

[Ashlea?]

pft...Here we go.

I never said I condone his behavior. Did I?...No,No I did not. Easy on the trigger tiger ;)

I said look at the problem behind this. Why did he do this? Once again, i'll stop right there.

[Cyclopea]

He probably had a psychotic reaction to some pharmaceutical they'll pull off the market in a year or two.
Glad he didn't kill more people.

[~Bo]

pft...Here we go.

I never said I condone his behavior. Did I?...No,No I did not. Easy on the trigger tiger ;)

I said look at the problem behind this. Why did he do this? Once again, i'll stop right there.



Doesn't matter WHY he did it at all. No matter what the reason......still wrong.

[Ashlea?]

And what your government is doing to us isn't wrong? People are going to what they are going to do. I don't condone this behavior at all. Maybe people would not resort to this behavior if they were not afraid of a government that should be afraid of it's people.

[~Bo]

And what your government is doing to us isn't wrong? People are going to what they are going to do. I don't condone this behavior at all. Maybe people would not resort to this behavior if they were not afraid of a government that should be afraid of it's people.




I'm not saying what the gov't does is right or wrong. That's not the issue. The issue is some deranged asshole trying to kill innocent people. I don't give a tiny rat's ass why he did it.
These people should not have to die because of HIS issues.

[Ashlea?]

*Edit*
Kthnxbai

[Dude]

Aren't we chipper?

Never called him a hero, but you apparently are one of those "I'll shh and pay the unlawful taxes, lordy lordy don't haul me away" types, so I won't continue arguing.

Hurts getting fucked by the iron dildo of a government.

I presume you are talking to me.

No , I assure you I am far from chipper ,ever.(although I love the word)

Color me a wus for wanting to have a house and good credit because I paid them?
Would it be the more intelligent choice to end up in prison and/or have a hefty tax lien
haunting me the rest of my life?

[Ashlea?]

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

[Goofy]

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?

[AtLast]

I believe this to be an act of terrorism against innocent people. I have only caught small cuts of news about this as this time, but one report I heard concerned this not being called terrorism.

I'm thinking about how I sure as hell would feel terror if I were in thiat building! And what about the friends & family of those working there (and of the person that was killed other than the perp)?

Oaklahoma City (McVey) felt like a terrorist act to me. What, only acts of violence against innocent people in the US by someone from another country are terrorism?

Interested in what others think about this. I don't know that identifying it as such is in any way helpful to the victims/families, and I guess that is what really matters to me. Just thinking about this....

And I feel badly for the people of Austin having had this happen. Makes one think about how something like this can happen anywhere.

[Goofy]

<snipped for brevity>

When you're in a position in which you have control over people's lives, you can expect that people are going to get reallllly pissed off. Yeah, planes don't fly into buildings everyday (but loooorrrrrrdy be when they do, people flip the fuck out), but that doesn't mean that retaliation isn't undertaken everyday...especially toward those who have power and control over other people's finances, health, welfare, food, children, families, housing, livelihood, etc.


Dylan

Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.

[Cyclopea]

Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/

[Ashlea?]

I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?



Never said I was.

[blush]

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

Never said I was.

You seem to say that here.

[I'mOneToo]

are you talking about driving by a prison, or being a "guest" for an undetermined length of time?

only time i ever went to a prison was to drive a friend to visit a buddy in san quentin. when we got there she said if i went in i'd have to be searched, and they have a right to strip search you, search your car, and anything you're carrying. if you go in and refuse the search, the inmate is refused visiting privileges that day. i opted to wait outside in the car. yes i was scared, lol.

and the irs, i had them up my ass for a measly $60 in income that i didn't report. by the time they "caught me red-handed in my fraud attempt" (four years later) it cost over $400 in fines and late penalties.

it wasn't fraud it was a 1099 that someone never gave me for a $60 job i did that she reported to the irs for HER purposes but neglected to give me the piece i needed to keep from perpetrating "tax fraud".

i wouldn't fly any planes in over it. and i don't do any more contract labor.

OH shit yes i did, several years later! I filed an estimated tax return, you know when you guess how much you think you're going to make? Well they disagreed with me. They decided I was going to make $10k in 3 months instead of the $2k i made, and they hit me for the full liability of their guesstimate of $10k AND they froze my bank accounts. You know what? They don't give you BACK your bank accounts until THEY have decided that it's all settled. And in that case, I didn't owe them a dime, they ended up owing me because the estimate i paid was higher than the tax liability.

Still I wouldn't do them any harm. But they operate with the assumption that the citizen is a criminal and they hold all your assets until THEY decide that you're not. It's okay for them to steal from a citizen, but the citizen has no recourse. None whatsoever. And they take their sweet time giving you back what is rightfully yours.

And they didn't even apologize.




I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?

[AtLast]

Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/

Thanks for posting this information, very helpful to me. I haven't looked at some of the forensic behavioral literature in quite awhile.

[Dylan]

Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.


And I disagree that it's a *most* people thing. I think more people than less have an assumed danger in their jobs. But we can agree to disagree.

I didn't know you work for the government...I thought you worked at a dentist's office.

Again, I don't know what you do for the government, but you're welcome to talk to Mahhh Woman about the (un)safety of her job. I'm sure her friend who was under 24hour police protection for months (I think it was months) would be willing to tell you about her experiences being followed, called on her personal phones, etc by known criminals.

Again, you're leaving out judges, district attorneys (more of Mahhh Woman's friends), court workers, etc.

I also don't know how long you were in construction, but I've seen some horrible accidents and even a man get run over by one of those big asphalt rollers. Only one of the accidents (a guy who accidently poured two buckets of hot tar all over his face...it was pretty horrible) was under the person's control. And when I set a man's leg on fire...it wasn't under his control.

We have probation and parole officers.

My point is, there is no assumed safety when dealing with other people. No one really knows when someone is going to snap. And if you're in a position that completely disrupts the lives of others, the chances of someone snapping go up.

Just as there's no assumed safety when driving your car. You never know what someone else is going to do. I mean, like you said, even at a pizza shop there's a bomb threat. And how many churches (they're 'supposed' to be safe) have been bombed?


Dylan

[Dylan]

And I left out all of the places in which One has to walk through a metal detector before entering...which now includes schools in some areas.

If there's an assumption of safety, why are there metal detectors?


Dylan

[Diva]

This guy really showed them ,didn't he?

<snip>

Similar to the nut who bulldozed his house so the bank would not get it.






Did he get a permit from the city to do that? :|

[~Bo]

Did he get a permit from the city to do that? :|



Boy, they have permits for everything these days, don't they!! :readfineprint:

[Ashlea?]

You are absolutely right. I did put "we", my apologies. But are you really going to try and stick with your argument that people are not afraid of their government? If not by taxes, name one out of a billion other things that our government has us by the balls by.

Are you really going to deny the fear?

That being said, are you really going to deny that our government has us afraid which is contradictory to the foundation of the constitution? This country?

I really just want people to sit and think about that. Out of EVERYTHING we fight/disagree about, we should STILL not fear our government for any reason. Its unconscionable, and unconstitutional.

[Rufusboi]

You are absolutely right. I did put "we", my apologies. But are you really going to try and stick with your argument that people are not afraid of their government? If not by taxes, name one out of a billion other things that our government has us by the balls by.

Are you really going to deny the fear?

That being said, are you really going to deny that our government has us afraid which is contradictory to the foundation of the constitution? This country?

I really just want people to sit and think about that. Out of EVERYTHING we fight/disagree about, we should STILL not fear our government for any reason. Its unconscionable, and unconstitutional.



And don't forget that CPS can investigate and take your kids based on "reports" of abuse. Pics of your kids in the bath tub? Be careful who sees them as you might have a government agency on your doorstep asking about child pornography. Got a beef with your neighbor. Pray he or she doesn't go to the police and make up reports of terrorism, drugs, bombs etc on. Watch what you check out of the library too. Its all kept on record. And if you end up on the no fly list due to an error or you have the same name as someone on the list, well give it up, you're driving from now on. Imagine being an 18 year old high school senior who has sex with his 16 year old high school girlfriend. Oops. your're now on the sexual predator list for LIFE. It happens. Uhh don't want to get on the wrong side of the US government. My girlfriend is a naturalized citizen and worries that the Feds have her fingerprints on file for life. Had to be fingerprinted to get her citizenship. That's it, she's on the grid for life. She's in the database. She laughs about it but seriously they have them. It gives you pause. Oh and be careful what you write on this board, on any internet board, on an email because you put the wrong string of words together and bam......listen for that knock on the door. Or you say the wrong thing on the phone.......they're listening......Uhhh you have to be careful what you do, what you say, who you make friends with. Call me paranoid .....but I think there is a lot of truth to what I say. Oh and don't get me started on all the people who are innocent and end up in prison for years on end. And all the mismangement, fraud, corruption, bribery, incompetent workers, graft, nepotism, friends hiring friends at all level of government and in all government agencies.

Rufus

[IrishGrrl]

Maybe it was the high cost of water these days that drove people from their homes and into voting booths


I Mean, Bush Really Did Fuck Things Up, No?,
Dylan

He most certainly did.

Five people in my house.

5 showers a day.

Aprox.25-30 flushes a day

15-20 loads of laundry a week..in a large washer.

My bill this month was 18 dollars.

Sewage was 23.

The kids are gonna have to start peeing in the yard.

:2cents:

[Diavolo]

Taxes are a necessary evil in a civilized society. When I was in Germany almost half of my income went to taxes. Of course there wasn't any tax on gas or consumables, but it felt like a lot, until I got hurt and the German Doctor fixed me and sent me on my way.

We all have to pay taxes. As I always say to people who don't want to pay taxes, great, stay off the highways, don't call a cop or a fireman, don't ask the Army to do anything on your behalf and don't take an airplane. Don't send your brats to the public schools and don't ask us to put anyone in jail for committing a crime that won't be investigated because there are no police. I could go on for a while on that one but I think my point is clear.

The wingnut faction who is trying to steal this country away with their don't tread on me bullshit is out of touch with the reality of an entity as large as this country. Do I want my tax money wasted? Absolutely not. Do I want a safety net in place for people who fall on hard times? Yes. Do I want to support someone who is capable of working for the rest of their life? No. Do I have a problem paying my fair share? Nope.

Personally, I want corporations out of government. I do not want BofA or anyone else contributing to the election of a Congressman. The Supreme Court came out with their worst decision of all time on that one. OK, Dred Scott was worse, but you get what I mean. I do not want banks bailed out by our government while families lose their homes. And if Good Lord willing I become one of the 2% who make over $250k a year, I'll pay my fair share. If I can't make my mortgage payment, I expect to lose my house under the terms of the contract I signed. If a CEO runs a company into the ground because like Jamie Dimon they thought the real estate market would never stop going up, they should lose their jobs and their houses. They should not get a pat on the back, a bucket of money and a bonus next year.

I understand that people are frustrated. It's a lack of education and the result of 8 years of an Asleep at the Wheel Presidency. Last month I had a guy blame Obama for him losing his house. Except they missed he first mortgage payment in July 2008. There is a disconnect.

We forget that Bush couldn't find oil in Texas, ran the Rangers into the ground and basically had a track record of fucking up a wet dream. It's not some drone following procedures at an IRS building that is the problem. It's the Congress that enacts laws that they haven't read that have amendments in them that benefit corporations and punish constituents. It's the lack of personal responsibility in this country which is a direct extension of the lack of corporate responsibility in this country. If everybody stepped up and said "I own this", say like Tiger did, we'd be in a better place.

As for the clown that bulldozed the house, he breached the mortgage when he did that and now he'll have nothing and still owe taxes and the mortgage. They will hound him until the end of time. Idiot. And he's probably the kind of guy who complains about attorneys. Like my brother the attorney says "if y'all would act right, I'd be out of work, but you don't."

:explode:

[wolfwalker]

Nothing about my family's survival will EVER involve killing innocent people. NOTHING. Sorry, not my way of getting things done.

And nothing you can say will convince me that this guy was a "brave American". He was a C O W A R D

So I guess the only thing left to do is to put my sheep suit on the next time I walk out my door. I don't like to wear it in the house because I'm so fat and happy that the dogs think I'm dinner.

Baaaaaa

:|

oh really? tell me what you are going to do when there is no food left in the stores because of some disaster and people are coming down your driveway, intent on killing you and your family for what you have left?

going to just invite them in for tea and cookies?

[~Bo]

oh really? tell me what you are going to do when there is no food left in the stores because of some disaster and people are coming down your driveway, intent on killing you and your family for what you have left?

going to just invite them in for tea and cookies?




I guess we'll have to get a plane and fly it into a building and kill a bunch of people. Right?
That'll solve the problem.

[Sachita]

As it has been with most of my life I sit on a fence with this. I'm between liberal hippy and conservative bitch most likely caught in a bureaucratic trap most of us are in. Sheeple (is that right?) is exactly what we are.

Our government is the worse terrorist of all. Our entire civilization has been erected from slaughtering and abusing natives and other people in the name of some fucked up system that's soul agenda is to control us. We can celebrate a fucked up LIE called history and support a system that has literally abused us but damn the one individual that reacts.

I don't agree with any act of violence but I can damn sure see why he did what he did. The thought, I am sure has crossed many a mind. He was just willing to trade his life for it. Not something many of us would consider. No, I don't think he was a coward. I think he snapped and just had enough.

[wolfwalker]

I guess we'll have to get a plane and fly it into a building and kill a bunch of people. Right?
That'll solve the problem.

lets keep facts straight. he did not kill a bunch of people. other then himself there is 1 dead, 1 injured

[Diavolo]

lets keep facts straight. he did not kill a bunch of people. other then himself there is 1 dead, 1 injured

Dude. Seriously?

His intent was to do a lot more damage than he did. You can read his manifesto until the end of time. Murder and mayhem. I cannot believe that you and any one else for that matter is defending murder and mayhem. I'd recommend a reality check.

[T D]

I don't think what this person did was in any way a good thing. I don't think he's a hero, but I don't think he's a coward either. I think he was sick, yes SICK, and this is just one more example of how the U. S. is NOT taking care of its own. Of course it was his responsibility to seek out help, and who knows if he did or not, but none-the-less, no one in their right mind does chit like this, and I have NO doubt that the pressure on him was more than he could handle, for whatever reasons. We're all different.

Unless any of us has been so depressed, fed up, and out of control that we've actually crossed that line between fantasy and reality we have NO idea what really went on for this guy. Causing harm to our self or anyone else is never a good thing to do, but it does happen, and it sometimes happens to what appears to be "perfectly normal people". It could happen to any one of us during our lifetime.

I personally find all of these judgments disheartening. It's a VERY, VERY SAD and traumatic situation for a whole lot of people, including the guy who torched his own house and flew his airplane into that building, and all of his family.

[Ashlea?]

Obviously you didn't read the manifesto properly, never once did he mention mass killing, or going on a rampage. He targeted the institution, not the people.

[~Bo]

lets keep facts straight. he did not kill a bunch of people. other then himself there is 1 dead, 1 injured




Ohhhhhh.....ok. One dead is ok. Got it now.

You scare me!

[~Bo]

As it has been with most of my life I sit on a fence with this. I'm between liberal hippy and conservative bitch most likely caught in a bureaucratic trap most of us are in. Sheeple (is that right?) is exactly what we are.

Our government is the worse terrorist of all. Our entire civilization has been erected from slaughtering and abusing natives and other people in the name of some fucked up system that's soul agenda is to control us. We can celebrate a fucked up LIE called history and support a system that has literally abused us but damn the one individual that reacts.

I don't agree with any act of violence but I can damn sure see why he did what he did. The thought, I am sure has crossed many a mind. He was just willing to trade his life for it. Not something many of us would consider. No, I don't think he was a coward. I think he snapped and just had enough.



I think he was willing to trade ALOT of people's lives for it. Do you seriously believe he thought he'd be the only one to die??? You gotta be kidding me.
That whole fucking building could've exploded.

I truly can not fathom you people and your rationale.

*shakes head*

[~Bo]

Obviously you didn't read the manifesto properly, never once did he mention mass killing, or going on a rampage. He targeted the institution, not the people.




He was an extremely intelligent person. Do you really think he thought no one would get hurt?? Come on!

[I'mOneToo]

if he was only targeting "the institution" he might have chosen a time like say, midnight, instead of midmorning on a workday.

just sayin'.

and i can barely read, let alone his "manifesto". but it doesn't matter what he wrote, it's what he did; if he wasn't targeting people he did a bad job of carrying out his mission.

Obviously you didn't read the manifesto properly, never once did he mention mass killing, or going on a rampage. He targeted the institution, not the people.

[Lips]

There are 2 in the bldg taken to hospitals and 1 unaccounted for, which is a wonderment to me that there aren't MORE as it was at the beginning of the work day when the building would have been heavily occupied.

That's all I have for now.....



Who knew that someday people would have their lives saved by traffic on MoPac?

[Sachita]

I think he was willing to trade ALOT of people's lives for it. Do you seriously believe he thought he'd be the only one to die??? You gotta be kidding me.
That whole fucking building could've exploded.

I truly can not fathom you people and your rationale.

*shakes head*



no, not kidding you. I think that he snapped but even in crazy ass mode he took a calculated risk even though he knew his own life would end. I don't see this man as being hap-hearted but one that gave it a lot of thought and fueled with that passionate insanity made an extreme statement. One which I feel would have easily been any of us caught in that moment.

For the record I do not condone his actions but the last thing I'd ever call him is a coward.

he had nothing to lose. He burned his house not to hurt his family but that they would have taken it anyhow. Can't you see this? He might have done a terrible deed in the macro cosmic scope of things but in his microcosmic world he acted with passion and a great statement.

when our government make a choice for the good of all they don't consider the tripling effect it will have on the masses. They will defend their agenda even if it means killing innocent lives. This is proven through history. Women, children, whoever is in it's course is victim to that greater cause. I think it's bullshit but at the same time I sit back and wonder what would happen if they didnt? It it an acceptable action and we accept it in the name that is all free... such fucking BS. If you can but that program then why not but this one?

I think it's a double agenda but as sheeple you'd never see that because as humans we are condition to acception, play into the system and punish ourselves for thinking differently.

Fuck that nonsense.

[Sachita]

and further fucking more...

think about why you feel this way. Do you sit back and think about the countless women and children killed in Vietnam? On the news we hear about Afghanistan and all of our soldiers killed but do we think about the obstruction we have created? hell fucking no.

Blind your eyes. Take a pathetic stance to this agenda where a man just simply had enough and took singular action. I suppose it would have been different if he had an army, that we all paid for out of our blood, sweat and fucking tears.... then he'd be a fucking hero.

Think about your compassion and where you place your morals. Life is a bitch and every corner you turn there is someone's agenda ready to stand up and challenge you. Think about whats really important to you. Sometimes the most devastating acts, the most painful brings about the most change. Although I don't agree with his actions I do know, from the bottom of my heart, that this will create consciousness, good, bad or indifferent, but the end result will be people looking at this and thinking "holy fuck, why are we putting up with this shit." meanwhile the cheerleaders are shouthing, "We're not going to take this shit NO FUCKING MORE!"

now put that shit in your pipe and smoke it... lol, wait, they made that illegal. So lets just booze ourselves to death and pay the tax to the government.

[~Bo]

Ok.....so then tell me what good did it do. Does it solve the problems you're talking about? No. Didn't do a damn thing but take innocent lives.

And talking about the wars is a whole other issue. This is about some ass flying a plane into a building. Period. And that's all I am concerned with. You can come up with all the excuses you want to. What he did was chicken shit and cowardice.

Why didn't he just face life like a man. What he did proves nothing and solves nothing.

[AtLast]

From reports that I have seen/read concerning this man's family and what they are going through, I can see no way in which his acts helped them in anyway. In fact, his actions (partly stated within his delusional thinking), has rendered them targets for shame, criticism, further investgation, fear, loss, and plain social ostricism far more cruel than what they endured prior to these acts. I don't buy that this had any semblence love of one's family or that his actions were not selfish (even though, I do not view him as a rational, sane person).

This man's sense of entitlement goes beyond outrageous!

Further, although he was having financial problems (who the hell isn't these days?), the fact that he had a home and a plane (ummmm.... not exactly coming from a place of poverty) is not lost on the fact that if one wants to get back on track financially, we usually cut back and develop a plan to get back on our feet. He was the one that didn't file an income tax return. And many people don't, but they don't fly planes into buildings. Also, there are several programs in which people can file returns and work out tax debt under (although, I don't think this is the whole story about this situation).

For me, there is no justification for wiping out a building, and killing and injuring people that happen to work for an institution one hates. Hey, I have some not so great feelings about governmental insitutions, and acts by our government, but I am not going to blow-up buildings and people.

I also don't buy that we are so damn helpless with effecting change in our government and laws.

[Sachita]

Ok.....so then tell me what good did it do. Does it solve the problems you're talking about? No. Didn't do a damn thing but take innocent lives.

And talking about the wars is a whole other issue. This is about some ass flying a plane into a building. Period. And that's all I am concerned with. You can come up with all the excuses you want to. What he did was chicken shit and cowardice.

Why didn't he just face life like a man. What he did proves nothing and solves nothing.








period is operative in a manner of opinion and obviously , , each person has one, even you. Aside from the prevalent bullshit herein, the facts all remain, the debate, as always diversified and the only thing we all agree on is that it was not cool, what he did, BUT he did it. The differences are that some call him a coward and others have various agendas or words for a man that took such action. I'm on the fence but leaning in his favor, not because what I think he was right BUT that he actually fucking did it. I am the the fuckimg coward because I'd never have the fucking guts to commit sucks an act.

those are my words and I'm sticking to it! :pipe:

[SuperFemme]

That we can call her for help. She could've gotten him down to a few bucks. Geeze.

YouTube- Roni Lynn Deutch

[Kimbo]

period is operative in a manner of opinion and obviously , , each person has one, even you. Aside from the prevalent bullshit herein, the facts all remain, the debate, as always diversified and the only thing we all agree on is that it was not cool, what he did, BUT he did it. The differences are that some call him a coward and others have various agendas or words for a man that took such action. I'm on the fence but leaning in his favor, not because what I think he was right BUT that he actually fucking did it. I am the the fuckimg coward because I'd never have the fucking guts to commit sucks an act.

those are my words and I'm sticking to it! :pipe:

I am really struggling understanding your words here, I'd like to discuss this with you if I may. To me is sounds like what you are saying is that if you have uncontrollable anger over <insert cause here> that it is okay to release that anger with violence on innocent people.

When I hear this I think of Columbine, suicide bombers (9/11), Timothy McVeigh, and 4 police officers here in the PNW having morning coffee who were gunned down by an angry criminal. Isn't some of the psychology of of these murders is that they become hero's because of their actions. Are you saying that it wasn't right that these people committed heinous crimes, but that they are somehow to be respected because they "actually did it?" Isn't that idolizing them? Is that really what he deserves?

[Hudson]

period is operative in a manner of opinion and obviously , , each person has one, even you. Aside from the prevalent bullshit herein, the facts all remain, the debate, as always diversified and the only thing we all agree on is that it was not cool, what he did, BUT he did it. The differences are that some call him a coward and others have various agendas or words for a man that took such action. I'm on the fence but leaning in his favor, not because what I think he was right BUT that he actually fucking did it. I am the the fuckimg coward because I'd never have the fucking guts to commit sucks an act.

those are my words and I'm sticking to it! :pipe:


This might be the most illogical, misguided and scariest thing I've ever read (from an adult).

Back to the story: Why didn't he fly that plane over the IRS building and into Mama Mexico, obtain a second passport from his new country before his U.S. one expired (to avoid having to provide his social security number when renewing his passport, thus avoiding cross-checks with tax returns), grab a bottle of tequila and call it a day?

[Ashlea?]

What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)

*EDIT*
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/21/poll.broken.govt/index.html
^ Wanna hop on the band wagon on this one? Or............

[~Bo]

What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)




First I must say that I did NOT mean to "thank" this post. I only hit the wrong key and there's no way to delete my "thanks". :seconddoh:


I hear what you are saying about all those other issues.....wife and kids murdered.....etc...etc.....

BUT......this thread is not about those issues, is it? It's about the ass who flew his plane into the building in Austin, TX.
If you start a thread about the wars, Gitmo, etc......maybe we would say the same things there.

And I'm sure there already are threads around here about the wars. This just isn't it. So in this thread I'm only going to rant about this one particular fucktard.

[SuperFemme]

What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)

Dear Judgey McJudgerson,

How dare you? This site is full of caring, loving and compassionate people.
Coming into a thread that is about a particular incident and finger pointing at everyone telling them they don't care about violence against women? Preposterous. Simply preposterous.

Logical line of thinking: If you fly a plane into a building where human beings work during work hours implies the intention of hurting not just the institution, but the people working in it.

Saying you will laugh at each and every one of us? A bit narcissistic.

You have no idea of the hearts of the humans here. Right here on this site.

Please kindly put your finger back in you McNugget box and quit pointing it.

Thank you,

Appalled

[~Bo]

Dear Judgey McJudgerson,

How dare you? This site is full of caring, loving and compassionate people.
Coming into a thread that is about a particular incident and finger pointing at everyone telling them they don't care about violence against women? Preposterous. Simply preposterous.

Logical line of thinking: If you fly a plane into a building where human beings work during work hours implies the intention of hurting not just the institution, but the people working in it.

Saying you will laugh at each and every one of us? A bit narcissistic.

You have no idea of the hearts of the humans here. Right here on this site.

Please kindly put your finger back in you McNugget box and quit pointing it.

Thank you,

Appalled





Have I mentioned lately that I love you??? :awww:

[Ashlea?]

Let me itemize your idiocy here for a quick second.

1: There is a link under where it says "Thanks" next to my last post. It should say "Remove thanks" right underneath it. If not, it could be because you already posted and the forum will not let you remove it, but i'm pretty sure it should still be there.

2:Etc etc? Way to sympathize.

3: Maybe we should. Or remove the blinders. Your so stuck on the fact that this guy went into a building, rather than see the supposed motive behind this act? Why is it so hard for you to look at the reasoning behind this. How can you be so obtuse.

If you come back with some "innocent people" remark, I'm going to slap you with the same thing I just posted.

[~Bo]

What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)

*EDIT*
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/21/poll.broken.govt/index.html
^ Wanna hop on the band wagon on this one? Or............




And btw......be REAL careful who you call "fools". :explode:

[blush]

Well, since the title of the thread is "Small Plane Crashes in Austin" and not "How Outraged Are You By Everything In The World," I stuck to the topic.

The fact that these atrocities happen and continue to happen daily by our government is well-known. I'm simply addressing this man's actions. Because I'm calling out his bullshit doesn't mean I condone(or am unaware of) atrocities our government commits. Who posts like that anyway?

It certainly doesn't give him a pass on what he did. And flying a plane into a building is intent/evidence to kill a lot of people.


What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)

[Admin]

What is the logic here really?
For all of you "quick-draw" insulter's, let me first point out my stance on this subject, AGAIN, as to avoid the onslaught of poo about to be flung my way.

I think the way this went about is being gravely misunderstood, as well as the motives and or reasoning behind this event.

*Prepares*

2 deaths (including pilot), 1 injury. Where is your uproar about murders happening all.......the.......time. Where is your defensive stance and pseudo-intellect thrashing when others are innocently killed? Nothing? No?

I don't hear you prancing around about the wife and 2 kids murdered with an axe by the husband. Is that not worthy of your rage? Where is it?

Where is your rage while people are being murdered by our own government, admittedly! Gitmo? Where! Where is your rage!

This man killed someone, that death is significant no matter the circumstance. But with the slew of evidence surrounding this case, is it not reasonable to think this intelligent man was not out on a killing spree, but rather made a series of bad decisions. No where is there evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where? Are you really going to try and speculate on a dead man's final decisions? What gives you that right? Speculate all you want..."Why didn't he go to the other building, why not at another time, why why why"...it will never be answered.

Change has become the big bad boogie man of this country. No one wants to accept the events taking place by this government against its own citizens, this would mean change.

But no no, don't do anything about it. Sit back with your chair and your screen, and your Mcdonalds and your car and your job. It can't touch you! No no. Change is not in your vocabulary. You'll sit there while your job is being outsourced, your family..starving, as long as the government gives you the scraps from their spoils, your happy. Mhm.

When......WHEN is America going to wake up. WHAT WILL IT TAKE! I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this country. I'll say it. But when the shit hits the fan, and you finally all say "oh.................", i'm going to laugh. I'm going to laugh at you like I have never laughed before in my life. Call it cynical, thats ok. I think it will be to hard to control the laughter swelling up inside of me when you all realized that you over looked the worst travesties happening to you. And you just sit there. Just sit there and take it like the good puppet you are.


Let the "your wrong" and the "I still pay my taxes and have my job,car,money" bs kick in. I'm ready for it. Bring it on fools.

(Disclaimer : By "you", I mean every.....last.....one of you.)

*EDIT*
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/21/poll.broken.govt/index.html
^ Wanna hop on the band wagon on this one? Or............


Ashlea?,

Your post has been reported for rude name-calling. Resorting to "Bring it on fools" is ugly, judgmental, and uncalled for. You need to communicate your anger without name-calling or kindly step back from the thread.

Thanks,
Admin

[Corkey]

No where is their evidence of him WANTING to kill people, no mention of it at all. Targeting the institution, yes, people, where?

M.. Pardon me, but the last time I knew, this engineer fueled a plane with fuel, and with expressed intent to fly said plane into a building. Last I knew fuel is flammable and highly volatile. Now you want to say there is no evidence of him Wanting to kill people, what the hell else am I to think when a psychotic gets into a plane and flies into a building full of people?For pete sake take a breath and use your grey matter.

[~Bo]

Let me itemize your idiocy here for a quick second.

1: There is a link under where it says "Thanks" next to my last post. It should say "Remove thanks" right underneath it. If not, it could be because you already posted and the forum will not let you remove it, but i'm pretty sure it should still be there.

2:Etc etc? Way to sympathize.

3: Maybe we should. Or remove the blinders. Your so stuck on the fact that this guy went into a building, rather than see the supposed motive behind this act? Why is it so hard for you to look at the reasoning behind this. How can you be so obtuse.

If you come back with some "innocent people" remark, I'm going to slap you with the same thing I just posted.




Hey...are you calling me an idiot?? Your remarks are uncalled for and rude! And reported.

[Ashlea?]

Dear Judgey McJudgerson,

How dare you? This site is full of caring, loving and compassionate people.
Coming into a thread that is about a particular incident and finger pointing at everyone telling them they don't care about violence against women?[quote]

Just because I happened to dredge up a woman being killed, does not mean the incident was geared towards violence against women, but violence against humanity, mmkay thanks.

[quote]Logical line of thinking: If you fly a plane into a building where human beings work during work hours implies the intention of hurting not just the institution, but the people working in it.

Logical line of whateverwhatever : People don't just up and fly into buildings. Something sets them off. What might that be? Hm... I'm sure the fact that he is an incredibly intelligent person will not register with you.He's a psychopath right? Right.

Saying you will laugh at each and every one of us? A bit narcissistic.
Bit funny.


Please kindly put your finger back in you McNugget box and quit pointing it.
*Puts down buyersguide* mhmhm you can have them instead. Not my cup of tea..

Thank you,
Your welcome.

Appalled
Me too.

[Ashlea?]

As I pointed out, I'm laughing...Laughing hysterically. Report away. And ban if you feel necessary, won't ruin my night. I hardly think I have used language that is overly offensive. Since when is "fool" the worst of an insult arsenal.

But its whatev. Do what you must.

[Hudson]

[quote]

Just because I happened to dredge up a woman being killed, does not mean the incident was geared towards violence against women, but violence against humanity, mmkay thanks.



Logical line of whateverwhatever : People don't just up and fly into buildings. Something sets them off. What might that be? Hm... I'm sure the fact that he is an incredibly intelligent person will not register with you.He's a psychopath right? Right.


Bit funny.



*Puts down buyersguide* mhmhm you can have them instead. Not my cup of tea..


Your welcome.


Me too.


It's "you're". The contraction for ''you are'' is "you're".

You're welcome.

[Lady Jewel]

Great job of going into someones lovely home and taking a big nasty dump right in the middle of their new living room. And then blaming them for your doing it.




As I pointed out, I'm laughing...Laughing hysterically. Report away. And ban if you feel necessary, won't ruin my night. I hardly think I have used language that is overly offensive. Since when is "fool" the worst of an insult arsenal.

But its whatev. Do what you must.

[Kimbo]

Well I was hoping to finally find an intellegent gay community. WOO was I wrong. Ban hamma, awayyyyyYyyyyy.

Wow...you are about as offensive as they come.

I think intelligence is with those who have the capacity to understand that any form of violence, whether it be directed at a child, a woman or a government, is unacceptable.

[~Bo]

[quote]
Dear Judgey McJudgerson,

How dare you? This site is full of caring, loving and compassionate people.
Coming into a thread that is about a particular incident and finger pointing at everyone telling them they don't care about violence against women?[quote]

Just because I happened to dredge up a woman being killed, does not mean the incident was geared towards violence against women, but violence against humanity, mmkay thanks.



Logical line of whateverwhatever : People don't just up and fly into buildings. Something sets them off. What might that be? Hm... I'm sure the fact that he is an incredibly intelligent person will not register with you.He's a psychopath right? Right.


Bit funny.



*Puts down buyersguide* mhmhm you can have them instead. Not my cup of tea..


Your welcome.


Me too.




We have ALL read why he did it. But that still doesn't make it right.
It sounds like you are trying to tell us that because he had his reasons, it makes it ok.

[Admin]

Well I was hoping to finally find an intellegent gay community. WOO was I wrong. Ban hamma, awayyyyyYyyyyy.

Ashlea?,

You have indeed found an intelligent gay community. One that expects communication without juvenile name-calling.

You are now on a 3-week time-out. (ending March 14)

I hope that you will take some time to consider communicating in a more effective manner. I will also remind you that there are many other folks in this community besides yourself and that we value clear, concise, thoughtful communication - not vomiting up negativity on a screen.

Thanks,
Admin

[Goofy]

The local news just did a piece on the aftermath of this event. It said that the powers that be are now looking into tighter restrictions at municipal type airports and for private planes.

yeah...way to stick it to the IRS huh?

[Toughy]

dammitt............I was not paying attention..........I missed a *popcorn* opportunity......
:toypony:

[AtLast]

I am so glad that I wasn’t reading and posting in this thread during the time some of the timed-out posting occurred. Since this happened, I have had a personal jolt come back that would have probably caused me to go off in a way that would get me permanently kicked outta here! I already was holding back with some of the posts.

I was very freaked-out when I heard about this. One reason was because we have quite a few members living in Austin and I do know some work in government offices. Secondly, the woman I was with for 21 years worked for the same agency in 1995 in which the head of the agency was killed by the Unabomber. As I was driving home from my office on the day that he had sent one of his packages to this office, I experienced fear and panic like I never have. The news on the radio was sketchy at best and I couldn’t reach her due to the chaos going on in that office. She was out in the field at the time of the incident and was OK, but I had no way of really knowing this.

I dated a woman from NY for a time and developed a close friendship with her that was in the Twin Towers on 9/11. And on that day I was once again awaiting news from relatives living in Pennsylvania near the site of the plane that was hijacked and went down. When I worked for a publicly funded AIDS foundation in the mid-1980’s, we were evacuated due to bomb threats more than a few times.

This stuff un-nerves me. I know it does for a lot of people. I also know that we in the US have no idea of what it is like to live with these kinds of threat every single day of our lives. Although, what about those that live in US cities in which drive-by shootings occur almost weekly? There are other examples.

So, even when I can understand some of the mistrust of government entities and even have some of my own reservations about government actions, the insensitivity of some of the posts truly amaze and appall me. Why people think that they can spew this stuff without regard for others that might have had similar experiences or live where these actions are part of their everyday life, boggles my sensibilities.

I bet that for every incident such as this, there are many people here that have had some kind of incident happen to them that evokes the very same feelings of panic, terror and pain. My experiences are not unique. Why posters would not consider this just plain makes me angry and I find this behavior to be the height of narcissistic thinking and personal entitlement.

[~Bo]

I agree completely. And as soon as I heard a plane flew into a building I instantly had a sick feeling in my stomach. Deja vu all over again? :(

[wolfwalker]

Yeah....how bout my question of if you think what he did was ok because he was mad at the gov't?

He was attacking the govt. which screwed him over something fierce. he set the house on fire so the IRS would not get anything out of it. do you think the govt. gives a shit about his wife and child? they were taking the house period.

they do it often. pay your pound of flesh or lose everything you own and end up homeless. payment plan? after slapping on their punishment fees. they proceed to take everything you own. thats their payment plan.

i think what he did was what he saw as the only thing left to do after watching them take everything he had.

remember the boston tea party?

[Rufusboi]

He was attacking the govt. which screwed him over something fierce. he set the house on fire so the IRS would not get anything out of it. do you think the govt. gives a shit about his wife and child? they were taking the house period.

they do it often. pay your pound of flesh or lose everything you own and end up homeless. payment plan? after slapping on their punishment fees. they proceed to take everything you own. thats their payment plan.

i think what he did was what he saw as the only thing left to do after watching them take everything he had.

remember the boston tea party?



From what I've been reading though it doesn't sound like it was a one time thing with this guy. He has had IRS problems for 20 years. Some of it had to be of his own doing. He is not blameless. I don't see him as a victim of the IRS. He sees himself as this helpless victim and that's where I have a problem with him. Then he turns around and victimizes innocent people. But this whole victim mentality really irks me. It isn't any secret what the IRS does if you screw around with taxes. Its not that hard to keep records. Its not that hard to hire someone to do your taxes for you. Its not that hard to pay your taxes (well it is painful writing that check every quarter). But you get my meaning. I'm not supporting the IRS or making any comments about tax laws, taxing, tax rates, fairness and so on etc. And I know people get fed up paying taxes and seeing how the money is wasted by the government. I'm talking about this guy and his lack of personal responsibility.

Rufus

[Linus]

He was attacking the govt. which screwed him over something fierce. he set the house on fire so the IRS would not get anything out of it.

If he set his house on fire as a statement to the gov't, why did he do it with his wife and kid inside (who, from what I remember reading, barely managed to get out)?

And, I could be mistaken but his estate is still responsible for the taxes. This means his wife will likely be left with the bill at the end of all this.

I don't think he took the best way out. He took the way that was the most selfish and self-serving. If he wanted to be courageous, why not stand up and find legal issue with them or pay the taxes, sell everything and live off the grid where they can't go after him for his taxes.

I got dinged last year by Canada (who's tax service is no less friendly than the US's) and paid what I owed, well aware of the interest I'd have to incur for any late fees. I've been audited (scary but I made it through). Part of being a member of society and a community is paying into the communal pot every year for the services that are provided, many that aren't so obvious. We whine about taxes but we would and do whine when services get cut. Those things cost money and in a country the size of the US, it ain't a cheap process.

Do gov't make mistakes? Yes.

Can I address those with a gov't official? Yes.

Is it worth killing myself or others over? No.

The US, to me, feels like it's at an all-time high in the midst of a "I want, I want, I want" society. And if we don't get what we want, we whine, cry, rant and generally behave like spoiled toddlers. I don't see this getting easier nor do I see events like this, unfortunately, being the only incident. I think we'll see others for a while yet as the overall market still settles.

[wolfwalker]

we have come to a pass here.

his wife put out a statement. she is quite fine and did not barely escape. His oldest child, put out a statement calling her dad a hero. good enough for me.

you are going to think as you wish. so am i. but if ever you have a run in with a govt. agency and would like to review this let me know.

meanwhile i have life issues to deal with.

be well

[Linus]

we have come to a pass here.

his wife put out a statement. she is quite fine and did not barely escape. His oldest child, put out a statement calling her dad a hero. good enough for me.

you are going to think as you wish. so am i. but if ever you have a run in with a govt. agency and would like to review this let me know.

meanwhile i have life issues to deal with.

be well

I suspect you won't return but for those curious:

Suicide Pilot's Daughter 'Sorry' for Her Father

Joe Stack's Daughter Samantha Bell Agrees With Victim's Son: Vernon Hunter Was the Hero

By LEE FERRAN

Feb. 23, 2010 —

The daughter of the man who killed a government worker in a suicide plane attack last week said today she felt sorry for her father.
"His actions at the end were extremely horrific and I'm deeply sorry for my father," Samantha Bell said of Joe Stack, who perished in the crash into IRS offices in Austin, Texas.



Bell also recanted her earlier characterization of her father as a hero.
"His last actions, the suicide, the catastrophe that caused injuries and death, that was wrong," Bell told "Good Morning America" in a telephone interview that aired Monday. "But if nobody comes out and speaks up on behalf of injustice, then nothing will ever be accomplished. But I do not agree with his last action with what he did. But I do agree about the government."



When asked if she considered her father a "hero," Bell, 38, said, "Yes, because now maybe people will listen."



Bell later called "Good Morning America" to retract her statement and say unequivocally that her father was "not a hero" in an interview that aired today.



She said the only hero involved in the attack was its victim, Vietnam veteran Vernon Hunter.



"I don't want to hurt anybody," Bell said. "We are mourning for Vernon Hunter."



Before crashing a small airplane into Internal Revenue Services offices in Austin, Texas, last week, Stack posted a lengthy, rambling suicide note online that railed against the government, the IRS and taxes specifically as part of a "totalitarian regime."



Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner toured the destruction of the Austin IRS building Monday.

"We just spent an hour with the men and women who work in that building, listening to them talk about their colleague who died, what an inspirational leader he was, we listened to the stories they told about evacuating this building in three minutes, all the lives they saved by working together," Geithner told reporters Monday.

Victim's Son: Stack is No Hero

Ken Hunter, son of Vernon Hunter, who was killed in the attack, refuted Bell's earlier statement on Monday, saying Stack's not the hero in this situation, but his father is.

"How can you call someone a hero who after he burns down his house, gets into his plane ... and drives it into the building to kill people?" Hunter told "Good Morning America." "My dad Vernon did two tours of duty in Vietnam. My dad's a hero."

Bell said Monday there were "zero signs" that her father harbored such strong anti-government sentiments.

"He may have been somewhat frustrated, but he was a very quiet man," she said. "The father I knew was a loving, caring, devoted man who cherished every moment with me and my three children, his grandchildren. ... This man who did this was not my father.
"He must've kept this bottled up all these years."

Vernon Hunter was also a grandfather and to Vernon's son, Stack's actions will not change anything.

"The only difference he made was he took away from my family and murdered a 20-year U.S. Army vet," Ken Hunter said.

To Hunter's family, Bell offered her "deepest condolences."

"I lost my father, but I feel guilty to be mourning my father because I know other people have been affected and a wonderful man has died because of my father's actions. And I need to pay my respects and mourn for the man and his family," she said.

Joe Stack's Daughter: Torched Home Was 'Part of Government'

Before attacking the IRS offices, Stack burned down his wife's home. While many debated Stack's motives for the arson, Bell said it was likely all part of his anti-government rampage.

"As we pay taxes, we pay taxes on our home as well, and my belief is that the house was part of the government," she said. "He wanted to get rid of what was left."

Bell, who lives in Norway and criticized the American system as "very faulty," said that she hopes "everything" will change in light of her father's attack.

"But Rome was not built in one day. But one small step at a time. One step at a time," she said.

Since, she repeatedly said that her father should have chosen a non-violent means of protest.

"If he had actually just stood up to the government, [using] freedom of speech and did all he could besides doing what he did -- flying his airplane into a building and burning his house -- I think that would've been more effective," she said. "He stood up to the system. But at the same time, he loved his family. We are at a great loss."

Copyright © 2010 ABC News Internet Ventures



Bolding in the article mine.

[Dude]

I picked this article because it seems to be the only one calling this
deranged egomaniac a murderer.

The real victim in this thing called reality is Vernon Hunter.

I am unsure if the amount he owed here is correct ( I'm sure more will be revealed)
$4000 - $6000 owed to the IRS is what the victims son is saying here.
small change to most plane owners ( I imagine)

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/02/22/vietnam-veteran-dies-in-texas-irs-crash/

[~Bo]

He was attacking the govt. which screwed him over something fierce. he set the house on fire so the IRS would not get anything out of it. do you think the govt. gives a shit about his wife and child? they were taking the house period.

they do it often. pay your pound of flesh or lose everything you own and end up homeless. payment plan? after slapping on their punishment fees. they proceed to take everything you own. thats their payment plan.

i think what he did was what he saw as the only thing left to do after watching them take everything he had.

remember the boston tea party?




He attacked the gov't by aiming his plane at a building full of people????????? How is that attacking the govt. Really bad aim?
He attacked innocent people. Period.

This guy graduated from high school near where I live. People around here who knew him say he was extremely intelligent.
So don't be telling me that he didn't know EXACTLY what he was doing and who he would be killing.

[Rufusboi]

I

The US, to me, feels like it's at an all-time high in the midst of a "I want, I want, I want" society. And if we don't get what we want, we whine, cry, rant and generally behave like spoiled toddlers. I don't see this getting easier nor do I see events like this, unfortunately, being the only incident. I think we'll see others for a while yet as the overall market still settles.

The "I deserve" mentality.


Rufus

[Diavolo]

The US, to me, feels like it's at an all-time high in the midst of a "I want, I want, I want" society. And if we don't get what we want, we whine, cry, rant and generally behave like spoiled toddlers. I don't see this getting easier nor do I see events like this, unfortunately, being the only incident. I think we'll see others for a while yet as the overall market still settles.

It is Linus. We learned to behave badly under the Reagan Administration and have not unlearned those bad behaviors. The 80's were the me-me-me generation and we haven't grown a bit since then. We're a country of spoiled petulant children. We don't care about a thing beyond ourselves. We're mean spirited, warring and selfish. It's embarrassing.

[Toughy]

It is Linus. We learned to behave badly under the Reagan Administration and have not unlearned those bad behaviors. The 80's were the me-me-me generation and we haven't grown a bit since then. We're a country of spoiled petulant children. We don't care about a thing beyond ourselves. We're mean spirited, warring and selfish. It's embarrassing.

I would say (instead of 'we') that 'some of us' are spoiled petulant children. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

[SuperFemme]

I would say (instead of 'we') that 'some of us' are spoiled petulant children. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

pouting. but not spoiled. definitely petulant. that's me. hug it out of me this weekend pls.

[Toughy]

pouting. but not spoiled. definitely petulant. that's me. hug it out of me this weekend pls.

yes ma'am....I intend to do that and dance too..... and I'm even gonna buy a brand new white A-shirt so it will be all sparkly white.......
:happyjump::happyjump:

[Goofy]

And in the latest unfortunate chapter...

Vernon Hunter's widow files suit against Stack's wife
<link> (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2010/02/23/hunters_widow_files_lawsuit_ag.html)

I have mixed feelings about this...

[AtLast]

And in the latest unfortunate chapter...

Vernon Hunter's widow files suit against Stack's wife
<link> (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2010/02/23/hunters_widow_files_lawsuit_ag.html)

I have mixed feelings about this...

This IS an unfortunate new chapter. Have mixed feelings about it too.

Reminds me of opening my eyes to an ambulance chasing lawyer while in the hospital once due to a surgical complication. I threw-up on his shoes....

[firie]

And in the latest unfortunate chapter...

Vernon Hunter's widow files suit against Stack's wife
<link> (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2010/02/23/hunters_widow_files_lawsuit_ag.html)

I have mixed feelings about this...

This IS an unfortunate new chapter. Have mixed feelings about it too.

Reminds me of opening my eyes to an ambulance chasing lawyer while in the hospital once due to a surgical complication. I threw-up on his shoes....


Honestly, if I was the wife of someone who was so carelessly murdered, I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for anyone, really. And I would probably be on a mad vengeance to make sure my family came first (she just lost half of her family income for fuck's sake).

I don't think however that anyone, including myself, who is removed from the situation has a real right to have an opinion on anything Vernon Hunter's family does, except for Vernon Hunter's family. Same goes for Ms. Slack.

And let's please not jerk off to a media frenzy because the news is making yet more fodder out of the private lives of people.

It's not a soap opera for fuck's sake.

[blush]

And in the latest unfortunate chapter...

Vernon Hunter's widow files suit against Stack's wife
<link> (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/courts/entries/2010/02/23/hunters_widow_files_lawsuit_ag.html)

I have mixed feelings about this...

This is unfortunate all the way around. I'm curious to see how this is handled in the legal system.

[Cyclopea]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/opinion/28rich.html