Walmart: Evil or no?

[Linus]

I've been mulling this topic around in my head for a while now. This news article (http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/local/article/fewer_brand_names_on_grocery_store_shelves/31974/) caught my eye and it reminded me that this could very well mean the end of the road for some good brands. It's this kind of behaviour that annoys me about WalMart. While I recognize that it's a boon for those with very tight budgets, I wonder if, in the end, it could do far more harm (WalMart and other similar big-box stores often kill off small, family run businesses thus moving the work force from FT work to PT, without benefits work).

So is WalMart as evil as I think or am I misguided?

[key]

Plain and simple, Walmart (as it has been since Sam Walton's kids took control) is in fact evil. Did you know when Sam Walton started the business part of his mission was to sell products Made in America. Now, I call it MaoMart.

Low low wages (and low to no benefits) are what keeps their prices low. Not to mention the communist/slave labor that made the products they sell. I will go well out of my way, and spend more money (and I do not have any extra money) to NOT shop there.

As a small business owner myself, I am fully aware of all the tax breaks they get to ruin communities and I refuse to support that.

I think Walmart is a symptom of a larger problem in the US. It would take a long post to go into the problems that I think Walmart is the symptom of, but I will suffice to say, the solution is for us to simply care more about our neighbors, community, each other and less about our personal bottom lines.

[Apocalipstic]

I vote Evil

[Blaze]

Wow, interesting thread, Linus.
I. For one, have always had a problem with the Walmart chain. Coming from an Island at the time it became popular there, I have seen so many Mom & Pop stores have to close there doors. Many of them, to which I loved and supported. These little stores, always had things that you could never find in big commerical stores. They were geared at helping the local economy and people who had beautiful items to sell.
Now mind you, I am not, and I repeat not a "name brand person". But I do have my favorites when it comes to house hold items. Brawny, Hefty, rubbermaid, charmin, and a few more.
When times are hard, I buy the generic brands, but I am always complaining about how cheap they are and revert back to buying my favorite brands.
There are some generic brands that are just as good, some even better, I. must say. But once again, the selling of cheaper versus name brands always gets my blood boiling. I would rather pay for the name brand, and not worry about my trash dripping from the house to the front yard, then get 50 extra generic brands that I have to practically use 3 so it won't break. And to see the Mom and Pop stores close here in Texas is even heart breaking. I go to these stores because I try to support them also. I have seen little barber shops close because they cannot compete with the major chains, the major chains don't bother to know how your family is, if you got a job promotion or even want to know about how your cat is doing. ~shakes head~ I will have to say that Walmart is EVIL!
I have so much more to say, but right now. Im mad.

[Mitmo01]

I hate the fact that I do shop there. I am poor and i can afford to shop at walmart. My preferred store which is Whole Foods is outside of my affordability most of the time but I do try to shop there when i can....I do not like Walmart but when it comes down to choices I am limited on what I can afford...

[MsTinkerbelly]

My daughter's Father works at Wally World, and has since 1992. He is full-time, has Medical (for my daughter as well), dental and profit sharing. Since he had his pace maker (he is 49 years old) implanted, he has been unable to return to the heavier lifting and assembly type work he did for them. So, they CREATED another greeter position for him and he is able to be employed at the same hours and pay he received before.

He and his 10% discount have saved his and my family major money over the years. Walmart out to make a profit yep....Walmart evil? Well, I guess it depends on who is telling the story.

My totally biased 2 cents

[Linus]

My daughter's Father works at Wally World, and has since 1992. He is full-time, has Medical (for my daughter as well), dental and profit sharing. Since he had his pace maker (he is 49 years old) implanted, he has been unable to return to the heavier lifting and assembly type work he did for them. So, they CREATED another greeter position for him and he is able to be employed at the same hours and pay he received before.

He and his 10% discount have saved his and my family major money over the years. Walmart out to make a profit yep....Walmart evil? Well, I guess it depends on who is telling the story.

My totally biased 2 cents

It's rare that I hear of this kind of scenario but good for him. I'm surprised he's not in a manager's position however given how long he's been with them.

I have no problem with a company making a profit (I do work for one that does so and does so well but 95% of my company's workforce gets paid well with full benefits and profit sharing). But I wonder, given how long he's been with the company, if he's the exception rather than the rule (from an employees point of view). Additionally, the forcing of other companies to reduce their price down to well below cost (WalMart has done this) has a side effect with other companies and forcing them to move jobs out of the US, etc.

[Rufusboi]

I would say not evil and for a lot of reasons. Perfect, no? Good jobs, possibly not, but it depends. I know they have a reputation for not promoting women to upper management. But so do a lot of businesses. This isn't limited to Wally World....its about entrenched sex discrimination in this country. I worked briefly for wal mart a few years ago. I also heard they had a reputation for not hiring or keeping gay people. Well, hell, that Wal mart was full of us. And I'm butch as hell and no one cared.

What I noticed that people who worked were rewarded. They were desperate for people to work. Far too many employees hide and try to get out of working. The worker turn over is huge. Stores are so big that employees are often on the honor system. And many take advantage and hide or take extra long breaks. I worked with a guy stocking who could not read. He was a hell of a worker. He will have a job for life at that store. He stocked by matching colors and pictures.

So yes, I hear all the good and bad. But I think you have to keep all the pros and cons in mind when talking about Wal mart. It isn't all evil and it isn't all perfect. Do I shop at Wal-Mart, yes I do. Is it full of cheap plastic junk from China, yes it is. You have to pick and choose what you buy. Are other stores full of cheap junk from China. Yes they are! I think Wal mart gets the most criticism because it is so big and so visible, but I think all these other box stores are doing the exact same thing as Wal mart but don't get the criticism. Don't tell me that Target and K Mart are doing anything different because I don't think they are.

Rufus`

[MsTinkerbelly]

It's rare that I hear of this kind of scenario but good for him. I'm surprised he's not in a manager's position however given how long he's been with them.

I have no problem with a company making a profit (I do work for one that does so and does so well but 95% of my company's workforce gets paid well with full benefits and profit sharing). But I wonder, given how long he's been with the company, if he's the exception rather than the rule (from an employees point of view). Additionally, the forcing of other companies to reduce their price down to well below cost (WalMart has done this) has a side effect with other companies and forcing them to move jobs out of the US, etc.

No, just a regular ol' grunt. He has some disabilities...oh yeah, Wal-mart hires the disabled...let's hold that against them too. After all, if they didn't hire the older, disabled, teens, etc...that have a hard time getting ANY kind of job, then the fully capable adults that have gone to school to make something better of themselves would have a job that paid well and had huge benefits. Ummm not. Oh and his wife (who is an idiot but not disabled..LOL) also works for Wal-mart, and has the same benefits. Between the two of them they make less per year than I do...that is very sad, but all they are capable of earning.

Walmart serves a purpose to those that work there and those that shop there. Don't like their policies? Easy to see what you should do...don't save money, and get an education. Simplistic?

[Sachita]

This is a sensitive topic for me because they are getting ready to close Harris Teeter, a local chain and the only store that carries a lot of organic and specialty foods. If I am not growing I have to drive an hour to purchase organic foods.

Two years ago another store closed. Now Sam's Club pops up (owned by walmart) and slowly but surely everything else begins to close.

For years we have watched Walmart penetrate local markets and extinguish small businesses which BTW hurts the local economy YOU LIVE IN. It affects farming, the growth of organic and local production. Most of the products are produced from foods grown overseas. Not in the US because it would be impossible to offer those prices and availability if it wasn't.

Organic food has come down in price, however years ago if I had the option of buying something organic over non-organic I would spend the extra money not only because its more healthy but to support the market. Many people felt this way and as you can see supply and demand begins to even out. If you keep track of agriculture and the struggles with organic farming right now you'll see large pharmaceutical companies, many that own other large companies including Kraft, etc. are somehow affecting the regulatory processes of organic farming. Ultimately making it more difficult to get certified which means more market for the larger companies that purchase from overseas. It might say organic but do you really know what these overseas farms are doing?

damn getting on a rant... lol- the bottom line is that YES it is evil in every sense of the word. I am guilty for buying Sam's Club but I also grow a lot of my own food and make a point to support local stores and businesses. I wish the hell I didnt have to go to Sam's to buy organic spinach because my local store doesnt have it BUT IF people began support these local businesses the demand would make sure they had it. In my area I might be fighting a losing battle mainly because the consciousness just isn't here and this happens in some areas. The first of the month when everyone gets their government checks you'll see Walmart's lot packed full and carts full of processed foods, junk food and walmart house brands.

Obviously the problem is much more diversified and the cure of many problems won't happen over night.

You can change so many things buy supporting local farms. www.localharvest.org - if money is tight consider buying less. God knows some of us could be more frugal and purchase a little less. Simply by supporting local agricultural you will create such change that it will literally affect so many things in our country. If you must buy from Walmart at least support organic's and buy what you can organic and local- USA. Encourage others to do as well.

It is grassroots efforts that make the most impact. Instead of accepting the situation be even a small part of the change.

lol- sorryI could go on and on but bad sinus here and trying to work.

[NJFemmie]

Evil, would be a matter of opinion I guess... but affordable? yes.

We shop there for some items - but we also shop various places to get the most out of our money. The times unfortunately call for it, and we're just frugal that way. Sure they sell cheap crap, but so do other stores.

I certainly don't agree with their employment policies, but then again, people ARE working there. The benefit issue isn't limited to Walmart - most retail stores purposely schedule their employees for less hours - or they increase the 'minimum' hours - so they don't have to pay for their insurance (usually management positions get the insurance). Inconceivable to think when you know they are multi-million or billion dollar stores - but it's widespread. Grocery stores do the same thing - they make it difficult for their workers to obtain insurance unless you work a ridiculous amount of hours every week.

Maybe the whole retail system is evil. I certainly know it isn't fair.

[T D]

I suggest that you watch the documentary on Walmart. I think it's called The High Price of Low Cost, something like that. Walmart for the most part does NOT treat their employees well, and most definitely does NOT in their over seas manufacturing plants. This documentary will definitely enlighten you. For instance they provide really poor housing for their workers, but if a worker chooses not to live there they're still docked for costs associated with living in Walmarts piss poor housing.

I think the thing that makes me vote EVIL, is that they (the family) has more money than they could possibly EVER spend or need, yet they have had to be pressured into providing some basic things, such as providing parking lot security, etc. Of course not until people have been maimed, raped, even killed.

They also kill small business in many, many towns, and have been run out of some towns or denied access to building/opening in them. I know in my town Walmart was not allowed to build one of their super stores, you know the ones with a grocery store as well.

[Sachita]

My daughter's Father works at Wally World, and has since 1992. He is full-time, has Medical (for my daughter as well), dental and profit sharing. Since he had his pace maker (he is 49 years old) implanted, he has been unable to return to the heavier lifting and assembly type work he did for them. So, they CREATED another greeter position for him and he is able to be employed at the same hours and pay he received before.

He and his 10% discount have saved his and my family major money over the years. Walmart out to make a profit yep....Walmart evil? Well, I guess it depends on who is telling the story.

My totally biased 2 cents

Yes obviously they can afford to take on the liabilities, pay for the insurances, etc. They have huge buying power.

Part of me wonders if the world is moving more towards this monopoly concepts and if so its really sad because so many deeper levels are effected.

I'm not sure I can get into all that today. Maybe this weekend tho. Just let me leave you with this little thought...

You're children scream for fast food, you give it to them because they enjoy it. They become adults and a whole host of healthy problems arise. They have never been to a farm or seen how food is grown or processed. They become depressed human beings because of the additives and chemicals in the food they eat and no connection with the earth.

Now when Walmart has a its shelves filled with recycled products, organic and local foods, recycle area, and offers all of this at a low price? well thats a whole other story.

[Blaze]

Walmart serves a purpose to those that work there and those that shop there. Don't like their policies? Easy to see what you should do...don't save money, and get an education. Simplistic?

You have a point there. It does benefit many that would not have the opportunity to work, But...
I don't like there policies! And it is easy for me to see what I should do...
I save money, I use coupons, in fact I am married to the coupon queen.
So there fore, I do save money, and I avoid spending my money at a place that I do not like there policies.
I am educated, and at the moment am still getting a higher education for job purposes.
sim·plis·ti·cal·ly It will be a very long argument topic, to which I am looking forward too.

[MsTinkerbelly]

You're children scream for fast food, you give it to them because they enjoy it. They become adults and a whole host of healthy problems arise. They have never been to a farm or seen how food is grown or processed. They become depressed human beings because of the additives and chemicals in the food they eat and no connection with the earth.

Now when Walmart has a its shelves filled with recycled products, organic and local foods, recycle area, and offers all of this at a low price? well thats a whole other story.

While I know you mean the "You" in this senario in the general way, I do not shop for most of my things at Walmart. I use Fresh and Easy for my food shopping (cheap and mostly organic lovely foods) because they do not have a union for their employees (don't get me started on the evils of unions), and the 99 cent store for household items sold cheaply, and the regular grocery for things my invalid Mother will not compromise on the quality for saving a buck. We have Whole foods markets (I won't shop there because the CEO is an asshat and the cost is too high) Trader Joe's, Bristol Farms,,, Tom's farms which is, suprise a farm.

My grocery bill with an invalid Mother, teenaged daughter, picky spouse, a cat blah blah blah runs nearly $2,000 a month. If I didn't have Wal-mart for medications, adult diapers blah blah blah....I would be living in my car. Oh, and I cook those lovely organic healthy foods...a three way bipass helps to change your attitude about food just a little. We eat "fast food" maybe 2x a month on the run after Kidney dialysis, doctor's appointments etc...

Okay, done...off the soap box...stuff to do:walking-poodle:

[Andrew, Jr.]

Wal-Mart could change how drug stores do business in the US if they really stuck with their program of the $5 and $10 co-pays of all drugs and not just the generics. For example, my diabetic drug, Actos, there is no generic for. So, I have to pay full cost or change what I take. I change what I took.

To me it would make more sense to keep a customer happy and stay with my store by saying ok, we will make it a $10 fee and eat the rest of the cost (we make it up anyway with our profit).

I spend $700 a month on my prescriptions alone. And that is with the generics as well as 1 reg. brand of anti-seizure med. that there is no generic for. That alone is $240 a month with a prescription plan. I can't live without it. It is what it is.

We have a long way to go with our healthcare system in the US. Too many are falling thru the cracks. I know for myself, I have skipped taking blood draws on some days because of the cost of the strips. I also skip taking full doses of xyz drug because I want to stretch it out due to my budget constrants. When folks have to choose between food and med. I know how they feel. It isn't just the old that get caught in this catagory.

[Selenay]

Walmart costs taxpayers each year over 1 Billion (that's with a B) dollars in state money. How, you may ask?

Federal aid, food stamps, WIC, state health care and welfare subsidies for fulltime and part time walmart employees.

For more scintillating information you can read Nickle and Dimed, or The Wal-Mart Effect

[NJFemmie]

I was (and still am) thinking about switching my scripts over to Walmart because they may be cheaper. Most of my meds have generics - but CVS (where I currently get my meds) - actually charges me more for the generic than the pill would cost non-generic! WTF?!!? After I bitched, moaned and complained - I am now being charged the actual cost for the med - which is cheaper than the stupid co-pay. Go figure. And then people wonder why they go to places like Walmart to save a few dollars and not get ripped off?

Again, don't get me wrong - I am not a huge Walmarta fan (that's what we call it) - but I refuse to pay more than I have to. If it means places like CVS suffer because of it - well, my feeling is they shouldn't be ripping people (and insurance companies) off.

[Mitmo01]

While I def do not like the inherent policies and procedures that Walmart has been sued over like shaving Overtime from workers and forcing them to skip lunches etc. I am a consumer who is educated but poor and while i do patronize many local small businesses in my city im inevitably held hostage by my finances like many others lol im torn on this issue im glad that Walmart has been sued in every court imaginiable from class actions to state courts over thier policies, they also employ a large number of people and allow me to afford products that many local stores charge way to much for....I try to balance it out in other ways....

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just don't know what the answer is. I think everyone who is a customer faces this issue when it comes to money, and the price wars. It is like a catch 22 or dam if you do or dam if you don't. That is why so many are going to Canada, Mexico, or overseas for medical care and medicines. Heck, now you can buy stuff off the internet. It really is up to your own disgresion.

Andrew

[NJFemmie]

I agree. Sticking to a principle isn't going to pay our mortgage. If I had the money to burn, that might be another story - but we shop wherever is cheapest to stretch our dollars. I wish I didn't HAVE to shop in certain places, but, I have to do what I have to do.

[Ashlea?]

DOWN with Monopolopiessss..

Walmart is specifically racist against homosexuals. Openly racist. Cheyea, no thanks. Aldi's, cheaper prices, same shiz.

[Sachita]

I suggest that you watch the documentary on Walmart. I think it's called The High Price of Low Cost, something like that. Walmart for the most part does NOT treat their employees well, and most definitely does NOT in their over seas manufacturing plants. This documentary will definitely enlighten you. For instance they provide really poor housing for their workers, but if a worker chooses not to live there they're still docked for costs associated with living in Walmarts piss poor housing.

I think the thing that makes me vote EVIL, is that they (the family) has more money than they could possibly EVER spend or need, yet they have had to be pressured into providing some basic things, such as providing parking lot security, etc. Of course not until people have been maimed, raped, even killed.

They also kill small business in many, many towns, and have been run out of some towns or denied access to building/opening in them. I know in my town Walmart was not allowed to build one of their super stores, you know the ones with a grocery store as well.



Can you find the name or a link to share with us? Maybe we all need a reality check.

[Sachita]

While I know you mean the "You" in this senario in the general way, I do not shop for most of my things at Walmart. I use Fresh and Easy for my food shopping (cheap and mostly organic lovely foods) because they do not have a union for their employees (don't get me started on the evils of unions), and the 99 cent store for household items sold cheaply, and the regular grocery for things my invalid Mother will not compromise on the quality for saving a buck. We have Whole foods markets (I won't shop there because the CEO is an asshat and the cost is too high) Trader Joe's, Bristol Farms,,, Tom's farms which is, suprise a farm.

My grocery bill with an invalid Mother, teenaged daughter, picky spouse, a cat blah blah blah runs nearly $2,000 a month. If I didn't have Wal-mart for medications, adult diapers blah blah blah....I would be living in my car. Oh, and I cook those lovely organic healthy foods...a three way bipass helps to change your attitude about food just a little. We eat "fast food" maybe 2x a month on the run after Kidney dialysis, doctor's appointments etc...

Okay, done...off the soap box...stuff to do:walking-poodle:

Trust me I know. Many of us are in that same trap and few can escape it. We gotta do what we gotta do but I can only hope that within that we also make choices for the good of all. Taking even the smallest thing and allowing that to make a little change.

[Ashlea?]

Can you find the name or a link to share with us? Maybe we all need a reality check.

:blink:


http://walmartwatch.com/img/blog/glbt_policy.pdf

That's just for starters. People get fired all the time for being "suspicious". It's disgusting.

*Edit*
Little old, but it is still red listed. I shop by the BuyersGuide and have had a lower bill than when I "thought" I was saving by going to walmart.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2007-11-20-wal-mart-gays_N.htm

[Selenay]

Can you find the name or a link to share with us? Maybe we all need a reality check.

I actually watched this yesterday in a course I'm taking on social organizations. . .

YouTube- Wal-Mart - High Cost of Low Price part 1 of 10

[NJFemmie]

DOWN with Monopolopiessss..

Walmart is specifically racist against homosexuals. Openly racist. Cheyea, no thanks. Aldi's, cheaper prices, same shiz.

We shop Aldi's. MUCH cheaper than Acme or Shop Rite - and they also just opened up a local-dollar produce market by my house. I am surprised with all the farm land here, there aren't many more of those besides the little pop-up stands here and there (which we do shop when we can). I would prefer to spend my money on private farms when we don't grow it ourselves.

We usually shop wherever the sales are ... sometimes Walmarta manages to beat the sale prices - but if we shop Walmarta twice a month for a (very) few items, that's a lot.

[Sachita]

We shop Aldi's. MUCH cheaper than Acme or Shop Rite - and they also just opened up a local-dollar produce market by my house. I am surprised with all the farm land here, there aren't many more of those besides the little pop-up stands here and there (which we do shop when we can). I would prefer to spend my money on private farms when we don't grow it ourselves.

We usually shop wherever the sales are ... sometimes Walmarta manages to beat the sale prices - but if we shop Walmarta twice a month for a (very) few items, that's a lot.

You should check flea markets and farmers markets. lots of farmers go to flea markets now and you can get stuff so cheap because they dont have the overhead. even close outs, clothes, etc.

[morningstar55]

I agree with the evils and good of wal mart......
and i vote that target and Kmart are just as bad........

my daughter has been working for . Kohls..... since last June...
and they keep her just under the hours of barely full time..... so its consider'd part time....... just enough for her NOT to get benifiets.
sooo its not just wal mart.

and speaking of Wal mart....... im waiting for my blood pressure meds to be filled here..... i could go to wal greens or rite aid or???
i can 't get my truck in there parking lots..... sooooooo wal mart it is.

[morningstar55]

You should check flea markets and farmers markets. lots of farmers go to flea markets now and you can get stuff so cheap because they dont have the overhead. even close outs, clothes, etc.

oh wow.... i love flea n farmers markets

[bright_arrow]

I work at Wal-mart... :shocking:
Seven months unemployed and they were the only call I got - of course I took it.

I am openly gay (although I may not LOOK it), but I am not the only one there, there is a very butch pharmacist in the department next to me (though I believe the pharm tech told me once that Wal-mart doesn't hire the pharmacists, they have their own superiors).

As for woman not making it in management, the majority of our department supervisors are female, and our store manager/asset protection manager and one of the asst mgr's is female.

Benefits? Well. Don't want to talk about it LOL I am only offered medical, profit sharing and now a 401k. Not shabby, but optical and dental would be nice (but you must be full time for that). My hours range from 25-38. Co-workers tell me the cost of full-time benefits is high, even as a full-time employee. I can believe it. Your starting pay is based on your previous experience. I got hired at $8/hour, the other girl in my department was at $10 because she had been a manager in a previous job.

ETA: When I first started I was offered some low medical plan through Starbridge until my year mark hit and I was eligible for other benefits (not sure if I would say better, I've yet to use them). And I know people who have been injured at and outside of work, can't meet their job requirement's, so Wal-mart makes a position for them so they can continue to work until they're better.

We have quite a few mentally challenged people working at my store (people greeters and cart pushers), but they are some of the nicest people ever. One man constantly repeats himself and will talk your ear off, but he knows everyone by name, asks how you/your family is doing, will always ask whoever he passes if they need help, and has on more than one occasion told many of us females how nice we :spruceup: It shocks me how many people are rude to him and blow him off/tell him to stop talking. :shocking:

Oh - about the over time? They will ask you to extend your lunch to make up for any overtime you have made (this applies to full time only it seems).

I don't really have a point with this post except to explain some of the posts I've seen from an employee's view. :)
We are a small town, with other towns 20 minutes away, and the next Wal-mart 40 minutes away. I know many of my customers, and a lot of my co workers I went to school with, have worked with when I was at P&C, or are people that know my dad from the VFW lol.. So I love my job mostly because the people I work with are fantastic.

OH! And about parking lot security? As someone who has had customers 'stalking' me for lack of a better word, that would be a good idea. The parking lot is vast and there are few cameras. The manager I reported to at that time shrugged me off, it took telling a co-worker (I told her, she is one of my good friend's mom and works in the pharmacy right next to HBA) who told her manager she reported to for anything to be done (i.e. they came through by department at the time the men normally came, they approached them when they came, and they escorted me to my car after a co-worker said the men were outside waiting in a car by where the employee's park).

That is all I have for now I think.

[NJFemmie]

You should check flea markets and farmers markets. lots of farmers go to flea markets now and you can get stuff so cheap because they dont have the overhead. even close outs, clothes, etc.

Yeah, we have a huge flea market with farmer's markets here - but we find that the quality of the produce isn't all that, believe it or not. I don't know what these people do to their produce - (or where they are traveling from - I don't think they are locals) but we'll buy it looking fantastic, and within a day, it's beyond nasty. Actually, when we drive along the roads here, there are a lot of pop up stands with veggies and fruits fresh picked. I prefer those to the farmer's market, which is hit or miss for us. Even if they charge a little more, the quality is well worth it.

However, I do love the flea market - (and it is HUGE). ;)

[Rufusboi]

I suggest that you watch the documentary on Walmart. I think it's called The High Price of Low Cost, something like that. Walmart for the most part does NOT treat their employees well, and most definitely does NOT in their over seas manufacturing plants. This documentary will definitely enlighten you. For instance they provide really poor housing for their workers, but if a worker chooses not to live there they're still docked for costs associated with living in Walmarts piss poor housing.

I think the thing that makes me vote EVIL, is that they (the family) has more money than they could possibly EVER spend or need, yet they have had to be pressured into providing some basic things, such as providing parking lot security, etc. Of course not until people have been maimed, raped, even killed.

They also kill small business in many, many towns, and have been run out of some towns or denied access to building/opening in them. I know in my town Walmart was not allowed to build one of their super stores, you know the ones with a grocery store as well.




Why do we blame wal mart for killing small businesses? Why don't we blame shoppers for abandoning small businesses in favor of wal mart. No one makes anyone shop at wal-mart.

Rufus

[UofMfan]

For me, Wal-Mart is evil and Whole Foods is not far behind.

I have read that some go miles out of their way to get a coffee at Starbucks (another capitalistic empire) but somehow can justify shopping at Wal-Mart simply because it is closer. I do not understand this type of logic.

Super stores are killing small business in the U.S. This economic crisis came about because banks were too big to fail. We can apply the same to stores one day. Let's not get to that point.

I understand the opinions of those who have close family or friends who work there, but in general, and it has been well publicized, it is a fact that Wal-Mart is basically evil.

My motto is to put my money where my moral values lie.

[NJFemmie]

Morals are relative.

[UofMfan]

Yes, that is why I said MY MORALS.

[Rufusboi]

For me, Wal-Mart is evil and Whole Foods is not far behind.

I have read that some go miles out of their way to get a coffee at Starbucks (another capitalistic empire) but somehow can justify shopping at Wal-Mart simply because it is closer. I do not understand this type of logic.

Super stores are killing small business in the U.S. This economic crisis came about because banks were too big to fail. We can apply the same to stores one day. Let's not get to that point.

I understand the opinions of those who have close family or friends who work there, but in general, and it has been well publicized, it is a fact that Wal-Mart is basically evil.

My motto is to put my money where my moral values lie.


I'm glad you have enough money to support your moral values. You are very lucky to be able to do that. Some, unfortunately, don't have these choices. My girlfriend has to take iron pills due to chronic anemia. She was buying them at Walgreens until she noticed the same brand of pills, same number of pills in the pack for $7 less at Walmart. Now where do you think we are going to buy them from? Why should I give walgreens an extra $7? And what makes Walgreens morally superior to wal mart? And if you happen to work a $7 an hour job that's a whole hour of your life/work day you just saved. When you start adding up how many hours you have to work just to purchase one item it gets a little shocking.

Rufus

[UofMfan]

I'm glad you have enough money to support your moral values. You are very lucky to be able to do that. Some, unfortunately, don't have these choices. My girlfriend has to take iron pills due to chronic anemia. She was buying them at Walgreens until she noticed the same brand of pills, same number of pills in the pack for $7 less at Walmart. Now where do you think we are going to buy them from? Why should I give walgreens an extra $7? And what makes Walgreens morally superior to wal mart? And if you happen to work a $7 an hour job that's a whole hour of your life/work day you just saved. When you start adding up how many hours you have to work just to purchase one item it gets a little shocking.

Rufus

You have no idea if I have enough money or not, so please do not make assumptions and I will do the same for you, ok?

[Rufusboi]

You have no idea if I have enough money or not, so please do not make assumptions and I will do the same for you, ok?


You're right. I have no idea how much money you have/earn. However, you said you put your money where your moral values are. Ergo, you have the money to support your moral values. I pointed out that some people don't. Some people have to shop at Wal mart because they find significant savings on products they have to have. They might choose to shop at a locally owned store or pharmacy if they did not feel the need to save an extra $3 or $5 or $10. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to assume. I am just trying to point out that we all have moral values and where we shop does not make us less moral or less concerned or less unaware.

Rufus

[NJFemmie]

Yes, that is why I said MY MORALS.

I understood that.

But, I also wanted to make a general statement.

Morality is great - but it doesn't always keep food on the table. I am sure a lot of people don't want to do half the things they do, but have to in order to keep afloat. Shopping in certain stores, in my opinion, does not imply lack of morality.

[Sachita]

Yeah, we have a huge flea market with farmer's markets here - but we find that the quality of the produce isn't all that, believe it or not. I don't know what these people do to their produce - (or where they are traveling from - I don't think they are locals) but we'll buy it looking fantastic, and within a day, it's beyond nasty. Actually, when we drive along the roads here, there are a lot of pop up stands with veggies and fruits fresh picked. I prefer those to the farmer's market, which is hit or miss for us. Even if they charge a little more, the quality is well worth it.

However, I do love the flea market - (and it is HUGE). ;)

well some people that sell produce buy from brokers. All flea markets are different and you have to go super early because as soon as they sell out they leave.

you can also grow really nice produce easy with intensive gardening, raised beds. Even the smallest space.

[apretty]

Walmart costs taxpayers each year over 1 Billion (that's with a B) dollars in state money. How, you may ask?

Federal aid, food stamps, WIC, state health care and welfare subsidies for fulltime and part time walmart employees.

For more scintillating information you can read Nickle and Dimed, or The Wal-Mart Effect



incase any of us lose sight of the real *cost* of shopping at wal-mart.

[SuperFemme]

incase any of us lose sight of the real *cost* of shopping at wal-mart.

my daughter and her husband both work there. they are encouraged to apply for food stamps and aid.

i found them an apartment with the full knowledge that I may have to subsidize their rent sometimes because the hours they get can be so erratic.

also, my son in law was hurt but wouldn't report it because employee's are on a *point* system. He would have been docked a very large amount of points because on the job injuries there are ALWAYS considered the fault of the employee.

the good news is that reality has spurned them both to get back into college. Praise Sam Walton.

[apretty]

superfemme,

that's about the only success story coming out of wal-mart that i've ever heard! yay for those two!

oh and tell your son-in-law that it only takes 3 people to file a class-action lawsuit--he should EASILY be able to find 2 other injured workers.

[Linus]

Why do we blame wal mart for killing small businesses? Why don't we blame shoppers for abandoning small businesses in favor of wal mart. No one makes anyone shop at wal-mart.

Rufus


It's a good question. Consumers are getting both needs and wants met. They get a product at a price they can afford. And WalMart continual tries to lower the price. Fine. The reality is that lower cost has to come out of somewhere.

My understanding is (and based on the article I referenced in the OP) it has to do with what WalMart is doing to manufacturers of products. Basically, they are forcing them to create them and sell them at below cost if they want to reach the audience that WalMart has built. Yes, they are aggressively competitive but at what cost in the long run?



Source: Harper's 2006 (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/07/0081115)

Yet since 2004, Kraft has announced plans to shut thirty-nine plants, to let go 13,500 workers, and to eliminate a quarter of its products. Most reports blame soaring prices of energy and raw materials, but in a truly free market Kraft could have pushed at least some of these higher costs on to the consumer. This, however, is no longer possible. Even as costs rise, Wal-Mart and other discounters continue to demand that Kraft lower its prices further. Kraft has found itself with no other choice than to swallow the costs, and hence to tear itself to pieces.

This kind of behaviour has, IMO, a ripple effect that is felt. The 13,500 workers likely lost decent jobs and if they work at WalMart they are at a far lower pay scale than before. We are creating an environment where, to get lower costs, we are going to abuse workers and pay them at a substandard level.

Part of it, certainly, is due to the over-drive consumerism that exists here. But part of it is because of the nature of WalMart. And yes, others do it -- after seeing what WalMart was doing and seeing that no one stopped them (attempts by various gov'ts ended up being settled out of court with a few tossed). This study (http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/2004/walmart%20study.html), done in 2004, details some of the hidden costs of WalMart. I suspect that we're paying more for WalMart than we realize.

Now, do I recognize that some good can come from them? Yes. There is always the possibility. I also don't think they are the only ones. Many people hire those with various disabilities and various age ranges. To be honest, and perhaps it's a sign of the difference between Can and the US, I don't see how WalMart is viewed as better at this than other organizations. I also wonder how much of the hiring choice (as in who and what type of person is hired) is more of a regional effect rather than a corporate wide policy or attitude.

Source: Harper article referenced above.

But the issue before us is not how Wal-Mart grew to scale but how Wal-Mart uses its power today and will use it tomorrow. The problem is that Wal-Mart, like other monopsonists, does not participate in the market so much as use its power to micromanage the market, carefully coordinating the actions of thousands of firms from a position above the market.

Walmart, to me, is the Microsoft of goods and services.

[T D]

Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price(2005) NR

Filmmaker Robert Greenwald takes aim at the corporate giant that's come to symbolize big business in America -- Wal-Mart -- blasting the box-store Goliath for allegedly paying substandard wages, skimping on employee benefits and gutting communities. This hard-hitting, emotional documentary profiles the struggle of everyday folks from around the country who've committed themselves to fighting the mega-retailer.

Genre:
Social & Cultural Documentaries, Indie Documentaries

This movie is:
Inspiring, Dark, Controversial, Cerebral

Format:
DVD and streaming

For whomever it was that asked, I blame Walmart for killing small business because when a Walmart comes to town the small businesses simply cannot compete with Walmart's super cheap prices. The documentary also explains why so many of their products are so inexpensive as well. That happens when you basically employ the poor for practically nothing, and resell for a profit. If I'm buying a t-shirt from Walmart for $4.50, imagine what it cost them to make and import this t-shirt and still most likely make a huge profit on it!! There's NO WAY that small business can compete, thusly many, many small town America down towns are dying or are gone. The same thing happens to grocery stores when the super Walmarts move in. In addition many towns helped subsidize Walmart (as if they need(ed) financial assistance) to move into their towns, only to realize that it practically kills the town. Watch the documentary and decide for yourself.

[bright_arrow]

So far - none of our small stores aka locally owned stores have closed. Not a one. Not yet at least, and they've been here five years. Many people left P&C when Wal-mart came in (customers, not employees - and it's a super Wal-mart I should add I suppose) because, well, P&C is pretty expensive. I paid $10 for a jar of some spice or another that my mother asked for :| She about killed me, and said she could have gone without it *shrug*

Though I hear that Wal-mart's produce isn't the best .. Hm. I don't do the grocery shopping so I'm not sure.

And a random tidbit I found interesting, when price comparing - in the orange box there's the unit price, say the bottle of shampoo is $1 per ounce for instance, so if you're trying to compare two different sizes and trying to see which one is cheaper per unit measure, that will tell you.

I thought that was cool. Just my .02

[NJFemmie]

well some people that sell produce buy from brokers. All flea markets are different and you have to go super early because as soon as they sell out they leave.

you can also grow really nice produce easy with intensive gardening, raised beds. Even the smallest space.

We do grow our own produce ... we enjoy it so much in fact, our plans include a 6 acre farm in the near future. (God willing and God speed, yanno?)

[TIMBERWOLF]

I don't think it evil . There are a lot of stores that do the same thing. It depends on where you live and whats available to you. I don't by my meat there. I prefer to go to HEB and buy my meat. I check prices because Wal Mart isn't always the cheapest on everything. My Lady shops at Target a lot.If I have to go to a few places to get what i want I will.Hey we go to the 99 cent store only for things.I do normally buy my milk at Wal Mart. I go to the Mrs Baird's bread thrift store where I can buy my Orowheat Whole wheat bread for $1.69 a loaf instead of over $3.00 at Wal Mart.So I think you just have to go with what you can afford.No shame, no guilt. We are consumers and each one of us chooses what is best for us,our family.
TIMBER

[dixie]

Due to the total lack of jobs in my area, after being out of work for over 18 months, I went back to work in the photolab at WalMart. (I had worked for the company in my early 20s.) Yeah, their pay sucks but hey, it's a job.

When I worked for the company years ago, I worked in a store that was absolutely horrible. No women in mgmt, very sexist and just generally a horrible work environment. When I got the job offer this time, I was so dreading it because I expected the same thing eventhough it was a different location. So far I have been pleasantly surprised this go round. This new store I work at is almost a polar opposite to the first. At this one, our store manager is an openly gay female, as with a couple of our assistant managers. All but two of our Customer Service managers are openly gay males, and there are many many associates who are openly gay, including myself. I was almost shocked to see how gay friendly this store is with its employees, so very different from the last store which always seemed to fire the employees for one reason or another when it was "discovered" that the employee was gay.

The store is very geared for community involvement, inside its doors and out. We have lots of charity programs in the community and also for the employees. We hold benefit dinners inhouse for employees in need. I particularly like this program because the store donates most of the food (employees can donate dishes as well) and it is set up all day in the breakroom and charges $5 per plate for any employee who wants to participate. ALL of the money goes directly to the employee in need (who is kept anonymous). I've seen it help folks a great deal.

Unfortunately though, there are still some issues at this store. For example, two teenage girls working different departments. One girl is a total slacker who not only does NOT do her job but has over 40 unexcused absences. She has not even received a warning. The other girl works her ass off, is always there and always ready to help out wherever she is needed. Two days ago she started having chest pains and her arms went numb. She went into the breakroom to sit down and calm down because the situation was scaring her. She sat there for about 45 minutes. However, she did not tell a member of management what was going on until the end of that time period. Management fired her on the spot for "stealing company money" because she was on the clock when this occurred. WTF? I understand that she should have let someone know what was going on before leaving the floor (not just for her job's sake but for health's sake as well) but I feel that management should have been more understanding and lenient with her due to the circumstances and her previously impeccible work ethic. But that's just my view I guess.

As for most of the issues people have with WalMart for the way they treat their employees, I understand the frustration and anger (after all, I know firsthand). But after working for many different companies in many different places, I also realize that it's not just WalMart. There are MANY MANY companies out there who are just as bad if not worse. We just normally don't get to hear about those companies as often, because they aren't as publicly known as WalMart.

We could hope that at some point in time, ALL employers could be more fair and just with their employees, but I guess in the world of big business the $$$ are always going to be priority number one...

[NJFemmie]

Mare and I were actually on our way to Walmarta yesterday, and I brought up this topic. Basically, She felt the same way I do about it - Mom and Pop stores are great when you're in a pinch, but they are way too expensive. In the Walmarta by Her job, they employ a severely disabled man who sits at the door and marks the receipts as you exit. Thinking about it - where else would this man have an opportunity to be employed?

It's a double edged sword topic - on one hand, you know Walmarta makes enough money to extend benefits to their employees. Most retail stores do, but they don't want it to inflate overhead and cut into profit. (CEOs need that damn Bentley and the Olympic sized pools, yanno).... Again, most retail stores do this, including the one Mare works for. She gets benefits because She is management, but She is constantly reminded to watch employee hours because if they go over, they'll be eligible for bennies. Does it suck? Yes. But on the other hand, Walmarta makes employment a reality for those who would not otherwise have an opportunity.

In this economy ... it's all about what you don't spend.

*shrug*

[AtLast]

I know I certainly have gone back and forth about this. On one hand, I want to support local businesses that are smaller. I do so, but, I also shop bargains which often are just in the box-type stores like Walmart. I have a friend that absolutely will not buy anything at Walmart. I respect her choice, yet, I just can't go negative about these kinds of stores entirely. It is about the economy and jobs for me in the end. I don't like some of the employment practices of the big box stores and where they get located sometimes (that could hurt smaller, local businesses). I will pay a bit more for something at a Mom & Pop store, but not a crazy inflated price. Sometimes, I buy with customer service in mind, too.

I come from a family-owned small business background, so I have to say I struggle a lot with this. Also, I certainly do find bargains in smaller stores sometimes.

[theoddz]

Well, for me, I try not to buy anything from WalMart, just on principle. I'm not raising a family, though, and can afford not to pay the cheapest price available. For that alone, I am blessed, but I also realize that so many others are not in my position, so I can respect that they go where they can get the best prices. I totally and completely see that and agree with it. I also see where WalMart employs some folks who wouldn't have jobs otherwise. It just really pisses me off that it is these very practices, which we both laud and loathe WalMart for are, in the long run, going to drive down wages, destroy the last bastians of decent employment conditions. I think that, in the grand scheme of things, it will ultimately eliminate the middle class. I think they intend it that way. I fully believe and subscribe to the notion that there is a such thing as a "New World Order" and that we are racing towards that very thing at a breakneck speed. This is what alarms me so.

I prefer to do all of my shopping on base, at the military exchanges and commissaries. If anyone's going to make a profit off of me, I'd rather it be put towards making the lives of military members and their families better and more comfortable.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I don't know how or if this problem/dilemma is ever going to be resolved, but I don't think that it will ever be in the best interests, overall, of the common American. By and large, America can't afford to not shop at WalMart, yet we can't afford to, either. They've got us by the short 'n curlies.


~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Rufusboi]

By and large, America can't afford to not shop at WalMart, yet we can't afford to, either. They've got us by the short 'n curlies.


~Theo~ :bouquet:

Good point. I think that sums up the dilemma for most. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Rufus

[Medusa]

I respect the principle of folks not shopping at Walmart because of their employee practices but my bottom line comes down to what we can afford.

It looks something like this:

Wal-Mart:
Cheapest roll of paper towels .77
Real butter 1.77
Cheapest loaf of bread .77
Tampons 3.97
Bag of frozen chicken tenderloins 6.44
=13.72


"Regular" Grocery Store:
Cheapest roll of paper towels 1.14
Real butter 2.97
Cheapest loaf of bread .99
Tampons 5.40
Bag of frozen chicken tenderloins 8.99
=19.49


That difference is about $6. Or 2.5 gallons of gas. Or 1/4 of our water bill. Or an extra carton of eggs, gallon of milk, and loaf of bread one week. Or a dollar movie and coke for each of us.

Medusa
(penny pincher)

[Lynn]

My wonderful butch does the shopping in our house. She is a coupon-clipper and sales-watcher, which saves us a lot of money every week. I'm talking, sometimes as much as $60 or $70. She will go to the grocery store for some items, Wal Mart for others, and then we do some bulk shopping at BJ's. I'm nothing but grateful for the time she puts into this. We are not wealthy, but her efforts save us enough to be able to handle a bill, deal with an unexpected emergency, or go away for a night. That improves the quality of our lives, together. To be honest, I'm sure there is much more to the controversy than I have been interested in finding out about. I don't begrudge anyone their point of view, and I would bet that I'd agree with them if I took the time to understand. But, honestly, I have many issues that are near and dear to me. Many important causes, including some that affect my children. I choose not to take it all on, and I really feel like I have to apologize because I know how it feels, when something is that important to me, and someone doesn't "get it."

[MsTinkerbelly]

My daughter tried to kill herself yesterday at school, but was fortunately stopped. I only found out because her best friend told his Dad who called us.... Anywhosit. Wal-mart health insurance will provide for her hospitalization, and regular visits to the therapist for unlimited sessions at $20 a visit. My insurance isn't half that good.....

[Linus]

My daughter tried to kill herself yesterday at school, but was fortunately stopped. I only found out because her best friend told his Dad who called us.... Anywhosit. Wal-mart health insurance will provide for her hospitalization, and regular visits to the therapist for unlimited sessions at $20 a visit. My insurance isn't half that good.....

Wow. I'm glad that the insurance he has will cover it and, more importantly, that someone stopped your daughter from doing harm. I'll have her in my thoughts and prayers tonight in hopes that the road ahead will lead to something more positive.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Wow. I'm glad that the insurance he has will cover it and, more importantly, that someone stopped your daughter from doing harm. I'll have her in my thoughts and prayers tonight in hopes that the road ahead will lead to something more positive.

Thank you Linus. We will take all the prayers we can get. (f) I'm still shaking from the shock. I wouldn't be a teenager again for anything!

***yes I realize adults harm themselves...please be kind

[Laidbackgrly]

:twitch:i cant stand walmart :twitch:ive gone there 3 times since july i go only if i have too:twitch:

[Ms. Tabitha]

:twitch:i cant stand walmart :twitch:ive gone there 3 times since july i go only if i have too:twitch:

I can't stand Walmart either.

The stores are just down right nasty and they way they treat their employees is disturbing. They are over worked and underpaid.

I would rather take a poke in the eye with a sharp stick then to chance the fact that I might be pushing a cart and have an onset of cart-rage and run into someone's child who has decided that running up and down the isles is entertainment while their parents shop.

:hippie:

[MsDemeanor]

Wal-Mart:
Cheapest roll of paper towels .77
Real butter 1.77
Cheapest loaf of bread .77
Tampons 3.97
Bag of frozen chicken tenderloins 6.44
=13.72
Paying attention to ads, clipping coupons, and stocking up when things are on sale works, too. I have 3 grocery bags full of Cheerios that I got for about a buck fifty each; it was really swell when they had little nascar toys inside, 'cause those toys sold for 3-4 bucks each on ebay.

16 pack of large rolls of Bounty pick-a-size (so you can use just 1/2) - 9.99 at safeway this week
Real butter - 1.99, often on sale for 1.50 with coupons at safeway
Cheapest loaf of bread - sorry, I don't skimp on bread.
Tampons - 3.99 at walgreens at least one week a month
Fresh boneless skinless chicken breasts - 2.99/lb at Delanos, sometimes on sale for even less

[Cowboi]

I don't like wally world.......but it is the cheapest place to shop here. If I ever win the lottery, I will never step foot in walmart again! LoL

[Passionaria]

I can't believe I am going to say this, but here in Tejas where I live, and I imagine it is true elsewhere, it depends on how much money you have. Like many have expressed on this thread Walmart is the cheapest place to shop. And it helps a lot of people in that way. It is hard to be politically correct when you are hungry. I think another question is why in America are people going hungry?

:cat: Pashi


YouTube- Bob Marley-Them belly full(but we hungry)

[MsDemeanor]

I think another question is why in America are people going hungry?
That is the real question. How did this country get so f'd up that so many people have to shop at that shit hole?

[Passionaria]

That is the real question. How did this country get so f'd up that so many people have to shop at that shit hole?

:piratelaugh: exactly! cracking up over here.

[FR]

--- i agree u have to balance it out with what is best for u and yours-
money and times are hard for most people most times.
-- also many grocery stores don't hire full time cashiers-because it would cost to much and benefits.
so walmart isnt the only one who has bad practices.
--my main concern is accessability- many know at this time i use a cane or scooter. and sometimes i cannot take my own. lots of stores dont have handcicapped scooters for shopping. many keep them in such a bad state it is irksome to me. walmart and target are one of the few who really take care of their equipment and always ask me if they can help. raleys is another store i give good marks to.

[Miss Scarlett]

I shop at WalMart and Sams too. But I also shop at Target, Trader Joe's and Harris Teeter.

There are things at each of the stores that I can only get there.

I don't think WalMart is evil. As far as I am concerned if anyone does not like a particular store for whatever reason then don't shop there. But on the flip side, please don't condemn those who do.

[MsDemeanor]

I dunno, I think that we gotta condemn this one at least a little

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=4linkyloo (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=4)
http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=4

[FR]

--i LOVE that site and ones like them--notice the leather couple on 7--lol

[Miss Scarlett]

I dunno, I think that we gotta condemn this one at least a little

linkyloo (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798&paged=4)


You are so very, very bad!
:rofl:

[Sachita]

That is the real question. How did this country get so f'd up that so many people have to shop at that shit hole?

Thank you.

I'm not sure about other areas, maybe you can let me know, but here in Danville, VA the Walmart has slowly been pulling back anything organic. For a while there you could pick through and find stuff. They even had a section. This has been slowly disappearing and I'm not buying the crap about the demand not being there.

It's quite rare I go to walmart. I'm not going to say I never do and to be honesty I hate when I do. I most likely will make a stronger to commitment not going but just last month they closed yet another food store. If I want anything organic, which is 80% of my diet, I have to drive an hour or more.
Thankfully I grow a lot but I cant grow everything. You wont get a phrase out of me when it comes to Walmart. If we didnt have a walmart we'd have more stores, more demand and in the long run more jobs and our local farmers would be busy too.

[Nina]

I have never been to a walmart

it kinda scares me...

I don't know where one is near me...I think we don't have one here...
I don't cross the bridge unless I'm going to someplace wonderful and/or natureful...walmart wouldn't qualify under either of those headings...

I have been to target and can do without it...

there are lots of little places around to get plastic things, and other things which the big box stores sell...an advantage of an eclectic big city like SF, I guess...and, if ya go at the right times there might even be parking !!

I think that the premiss of a huge business taking terrible advantage of their workers, out sourcing as much manufacturing as possible, strong arming the manufactures, and being ruthless with competition has a component of evil in it...I Do Not think any of that sloughs off on the consumers...in this day and age, in Any Day and Age, the wallet is the driving factor of most regular folks...connivence is a factor, and personal choice is a factor as well...where and how and why someone shops is their business and if I have a personal or political reaction to a strangers' choice, then I can make my own economical choices to try and counter theirs...

wow...who would have known I had so much yappy shit to say about this subject??....yikes....