Holy CRAP!!
 

I've had to stop reading this two pages back!

I'm a proud queer butch lesbian!

This is fucking hurtful that folks are going nuts about being referred to as a queer/femme/butch lesbian, etc... in such a very negative, hateful - if not digusting way.

IF you aren't a queer lesbian butch or femme lesbian... Good. Please don't hate those who are and act like you're being referred to as such - is akin to the fucking scum of the earth. What the hell!?

IF you are a queer lesbian, butch or femme - and assume all folks are (not straight and trangendered here - unless someone ID's this way of their own choice) please consider that all folks do NOT refer to themselves this way. And they do not care for it, no matter what the reasons. That needs to be respected too. We argue over this continually. I am sick and tired of it.
___

OTHERWISE, forget that this is a butch/femme site. That the owners are trying to be inclusive - and I feel like I'm being spit on here. And I can see how the ones who KNOW folks here truly are sticking up for each other, despite what THEIR damn ID even is! I am truly disgusted right now.

Merry fucking Christmas and to all and to all a good night. I'll be back in a few days to see how WONDERFUL all of our holidays were - after shit like this. If I am able.

SINCERELY,
WILDCAT

*And report my ass away, fine... Not too many folks should be feeling too goddamn proud right now, IM HUMBLE OPINION. We got set up here, I thought that... I said as much - but, now with some of these responses - no, I was not going to keep my mouth shut here! (And PLEASE, try and say now: I did not "try" and get through this. Give me a fucking break!)

**And "Victoria" (Is that right?) Good job. Happy holidays.

***Sorry Jack and Medusa. (And to the mods.)

ETA:
 

I don't "truly" mean, literally - "merry F'n X-Mas to ALL", I really mean I am burnt the hell out on this same tired old stuff.

Sorry to those of you who do NOT wear these shoes...

Please forgive me for that. That is my pain talking.

WILDCAT

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

Maybe this will make sense if not... i gave it a go.

Gemme was saying (paraphrasing) that all homosexuals aren't lesbians, which is true even in the broadest sense since men can be homosexuals and not lesbians.

Cyclopea is saying all female homosexuals are lesbians..

But how about if Gemme (or anyone, not trying to put words in her mouth) defines herself as Femme rather than "female". Can we then say:
Femme homosexuals are not all lesbians. (may or may not be).

Would that make sense?

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

It is tiring and sad to over and over again hearing how "Lesbian" is a bad word and that "Lesbian" sex is disgusting.

I am a Lesbian, I have a Lesbian G/F. I am Femme, She is Butch.

I also wonder why that is so terrible, and why we can't ID as we do without it constantly being brought into question.

Love all of you, but please try to be respectful of people who actually are Lesbians and proud of it!

:overreaction:

Thread after thread, year after year.

:overreaction:

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.


Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

You being told you weren't a (so-called) 'good' lesbian - doesn't make you any less of a lesbian (yes, I know that you do not ID as such, but let's use this as a for instance), it seems to me that there were obvious incompatibilities, and the person who said this to you should have exercised tact and sensitivity instead of being hurtful and callous. Mean people do suck.

Arwen, I'm sorry that you went through that. And I am sure you know that on some level, what happened to you does not, by any means, constitute "lesbian sex" - but rather, you being taken advantage of by a very warped and fucked up individual, who most likely happened to be a lesbian.

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.