"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Medusa]

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.

eta: i prefer to be thought of as "Adele". There may be several thousand other Adeles on the earth but no two of us are the same. Kind of like Butch/Femme. There are so very many of us. No two are the same.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.

Ditto. I think the other site is nitpicking and things like this can get to a point of intolerance—even dislike. But then, what else is new at a site that bans for life as though they stopped oil production, the Dow tumbled and a meteor hit the earth. Geezes, like I care. I'm a butch under the umbrella and even one step further as a guy getting ready to transition in the coming year. For now, butch serves me well as a description of how I ID in practical terms. I'm also old school and I keep things real simple without discourse. And one more thing, I'm attracted to femmes, and the term explains it, pure and simple. Just my .02

[Diva]

I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Diva

I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.

Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

Originally Posted by Isadora

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!

Thank you!

[Isadora]

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.

Great post Isadora. Perhaps the person making the point about masculine being placed in higher regard than the feminine might have a point.

Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first!

[Jett]

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Isadora

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme?

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Linus

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

I asked Schon about these terms and Schon said they were never terms used in hys community growing up. Some of this may be terms related to cultural geography. As Schon says, growing up in Minneapolis as a young black butch in the 80's could be totally different for someone growing up in New York. Like Diva pointed out we are evolutionary and our descriptors change as we change...which is a very good thing.

Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!

I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life.

[Selenay]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Isadora

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

This is a great response from Schon. "Not at the expense of dismissing others." Thing is...no one gets to tell me what is a "dying" or "antiquated" term. If I'm still using it then it sure as heck isn't dying.

I think the real issue here is can we all learn to accept one another as we wish to be accepted?

If I tell you I am a femme, you do not have the right to tell me that is not a "good" word. It seems so aggressively judgmental to me.

I won't tell a self-identified stud that hy's just a butch of color. How dismissive of me to not honor what hy wants to call hymself.

So for the record (and in my 3oth year of being gay with a few years out for heterosexuality in my 30's..lol), I'm a queer femme. You can be whatever you want to be but never dare to define me for me. You do not have that right.

[SuperFemme]

I think that it IS important to make room under our "Umbrella" for POC identities.
Which just goes back to the fact of how very important it is to respect ALL identities.

I think it bothers me to see inclusion being couched in exclusion. One thing doesn't need to be pushed out to make room. We can all open our arms wide to do that. When I was growing up I was mentored by older Butches/Femmes.
Now it is my term to mentor. If we shelve Butch/Femme as antiquated where does that leave us?

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Bulldog, this is the OP, and I'm not seeing anywhere that there is a video reference here. Only until Isadora's post (#4) was there any mention of a video.

I didn't feel as though this thread was difficult to follow at all. It's a calm, non~drama~filled civil conversation.