"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Selenay]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Bit

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

I wonder how much of that is cultural? As many of us are parenting I wonder how much our kids soak up. I have a 16 year old Femme who is in the habit of stuffing everyone into a butch/femme box because her role models are as such. It seems we have passed this world view on to her. Which is fine. Until it's not.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

[Bit]

Ooops, Selly, I'm sorry, didn't know you were still posting... *reads*


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I see. *smiles* That's what happened the first time when the Feminist Wave hit Lesbiana, yanno? People went to androgynous. It didn't last, because it didn't fit us all.

The terms Butch and Femme will be here when the next generation needs them, I think.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Diva

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

Dead is very final, but I think that is is accurate. Yes, the harpsichord became the piano and the spinet and the (oh lord it's been a long time since I thought about this. . .) ottavano, right?. . . but the harpsichord isn't in use with the mass culture. Of course, it's not dead in the music world, it never will be (I hope) but if it's out of the hands of the many, that is, to me, dead.

It evolves, it changes, it becomes something completely different. . . But when you unwrap it, you can still see the roots there, plain as day. Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

Music always was one of my favorite subjects. . .

[Words]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I think it's natural to have this reaction as a young person. Everything feels new. When you hit 30 or even 40+ (gasp!) you start to see that things come in cycles. Music and clothing are just a few examples. In 10 years there will be another generation of young adults telling you that your culture is dead. Five years after that they'll all be wearing it/listening to it and calling it retro. You're right that you probably won't hear baroque music on Z100 but if you try moving your dial you'll find it there.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[PapaC]

I think Selly's original post and SassyLeo's post are both on point.

I've noticed this trend in Canada as well. But then, I'm of the opinion that "butch" and "femme" have *never* been terms that have been popular in the real-time queer connections that I've had over the years, and my travels and living situations have spanned across Canada in 3 major regional areas and of course, San Francisco.

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

A 20-something transman when I asked his observations about the youth culture, he acknowledged that many many MANY have just sorta honed in on 'genderqueer' or 'queer' (he almost made it sound the same - should note that).... and he laughingly said.. "it kinda poses an interesting dilemma for t-guys"

it just might.

And call me crazy, but a part of me looks at "genderqueer" and thinks "oh, that's kinda like being andro" ....only 'cooler' ... more 'updated'

words words words words...

I dunno, I'm tired. when I get fed up with nomenclature discussion, I just sometimes sit back and think "now, how would I explain THAT to my relatives in Europe?"

Another question I have... did every 'lesbian' call themselves a 'lesbian' from the dawning of the english language?

By all accounts, if you look at the fact that the english language is what.... 1000 years old (give or take), for the last 1000 years, have we been hearing the term 'lesbian' to describe two women in love?

From where I'm sitting, seems to me if we look at it that way, "lesbian" as a term is brand spanking new...

just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

It took me longer to get to where I wanted to be with my identity. I had no butch mentor. I didn't feel fluid. I felt quite isolated from how my circle of friends were. They mostly identified as lesbian, tweener, androgynous, gender neutral, and on. At the time, the only butch-femme dynamic that was visible to me were the rarely seen older couple. I wondered then if I was outdated before I had a chance to discover myself and 'be'.

I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is.

Kosmo

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

[Dragonfly]

I am not old or young and am smack in the middle. I only wanted to add my opinion. It has been insanely difficault for this midwestern hick here to filter through all the WRONG stereotypes I grew up accepting as "definitions" of what butch and femme meant. I am FINALLY getting a good handle on them and now someone wants to toss em in the trash and pick new ones??!?!? UH UH... just think about what that is saying.... just when the average non queer person is getting enough exposure to BEGIN to understand who and what we are standing for we go and CHANGE all the words they normally misunderstand and are starting to finally "get it".... Sounds like we can have both old and new whats the big deal. Add them as new ones dont replace them for the original ones!


** Just me imagining trying to explain that to my mom and pop who are just finally starting to "get it" and I dont wanna go back to hearing my dad wish me a "Happy Father's Day" in his effort to be accepting of me. Bless his reformed and once abusive heart. We have come to far to go back to square one. I can imagine explaining there are new terms that people ID with and they are >>>> etc.

[Bad_boi]

Butch and femme are just terms. They only limit you if you let them. You can do what you wanna do and like what you like. Butches can do girl stuff. Femmes can do guy stuff.

[Medusa]

Im going to put a placeholder here for myself to come back and talk about how "Butch" and "Femme" spaces are morphing with respect to "Genderqueer".

Have to write about that one when I get home tonight.