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-   -   "Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization? (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365)

Medusa 11-22-2009 12:07 PM
"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?
 
There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

SuperFemme 11-22-2009 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 10109)
There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?
Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.

eta: i prefer to be thought of as "Adele". There may be several thousand other Adeles on the earth but no two of us are the same. Kind of like Butch/Femme. There are so very many of us. No two are the same.

Jet 11-22-2009 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 10128)
Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.
Ditto. I think the other site is nitpicking and things like this can get to a point of intolerance—even dislike. But then, what else is new at a site that bans for life as though they stopped oil production, the Dow tumbled and a meteor hit the earth. Geezes, like I care. I'm a butch under the umbrella and even one step further as a guy getting ready to transition in the coming year. For now, butch serves me well as a description of how I ID in practical terms. I'm also old school and I keep things real simple without discourse. And one more thing, I'm attracted to femmes, and the term explains it, pure and simple. Just my .02

Isadora 11-22-2009 12:56 PM
I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

Diva 11-22-2009 12:57 PM
I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! ;) At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.

SuperFemme 11-22-2009 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isadora (Post 10145)
I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.
Great post Isadora. Perhaps the person making the point about masculine being placed in higher regard than the feminine might have a point.

Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first!

Blue_Daddy-O 11-22-2009 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva (Post 10147)
I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! ;) At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.
Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isadora (Post 10145)
I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!

Linus 11-22-2009 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isadora (Post 10145)

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme?
A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

Jett 11-22-2009 01:13 PM
I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Isadora 11-22-2009 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus (Post 10164)
A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.
I asked Schon about these terms and Schon said they were never terms used in hys community growing up. Some of this may be terms related to cultural geography. As Schon says, growing up in Minneapolis as a young black butch in the 80's could be totally different for someone growing up in New York. Like Diva pointed out we are evolutionary and our descriptors change as we change...which is a very good thing.:bunchflowers:

Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!:eek:

I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life.

Selenay 11-22-2009 01:31 PM
Oh, Lordy, here comes the stampede...
 
Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

Isadora 11-22-2009 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O (Post 10163)
Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!
Thank you!

SuperFemme 11-22-2009 01:35 PM
I think that it IS important to make room under our "Umbrella" for POC identities.
Which just goes back to the fact of how very important it is to respect ALL identities.

I think it bothers me to see inclusion being couched in exclusion. One thing doesn't need to be pushed out to make room. We can all open our arms wide to do that. When I was growing up I was mentored by older Butches/Femmes.
Now it is my term to mentor. If we shelve Butch/Femme as antiquated where does that leave us?

Diva 11-22-2009 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selenay (Post 10185)
Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! ;) <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

Mister Bent 11-22-2009 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selenay (Post 10185)
Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.


Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

Bit 11-22-2009 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selenay (Post 10185)
Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *
How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

Arwen 11-22-2009 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isadora (Post 10145)
I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."
This is a great response from Schon. "Not at the expense of dismissing others." Thing is...no one gets to tell me what is a "dying" or "antiquated" term. If I'm still using it then it sure as heck isn't dying.

I think the real issue here is can we all learn to accept one another as we wish to be accepted?

If I tell you I am a femme, you do not have the right to tell me that is not a "good" word. It seems so aggressively judgmental to me.

I won't tell a self-identified stud that hy's just a butch of color. How dismissive of me to not honor what hy wants to call hymself.

So for the record (and in my 3oth year of being gay with a few years out for heterosexuality in my 30's..lol), I'm a queer femme. You can be whatever you want to be but never dare to define me for me. You do not have that right.

SuperFemme 11-22-2009 02:38 PM
I think we should listen to what Sel has to say with an open mind. Let's respect HER identity and maybe learn something?

HumV4me 11-22-2009 02:54 PM
Interseting read... Kinda got a lil scerred there for a moment though... But I got over it... with a quickness.

I've gone back east and into the hill where the terms / labels: butch and Femme, aren't commonly used. This shocked me and I was (only for a second) displaced.

As you can tell I get over things easily though and found their rythem and flow of words and meanings... and guess what I learned in my ol age... They had the same (but different in their own way) fundamentals as that which I know and understand.

Selenay 11-22-2009 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 10226)


Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.




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