"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Isadora

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme?

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Linus

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

I asked Schon about these terms and Schon said they were never terms used in hys community growing up. Some of this may be terms related to cultural geography. As Schon says, growing up in Minneapolis as a young black butch in the 80's could be totally different for someone growing up in New York. Like Diva pointed out we are evolutionary and our descriptors change as we change...which is a very good thing.

Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!

I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life.

[Selenay]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I think it's natural to have this reaction as a young person. Everything feels new. When you hit 30 or even 40+ (gasp!) you start to see that things come in cycles. Music and clothing are just a few examples. In 10 years there will be another generation of young adults telling you that your culture is dead. Five years after that they'll all be wearing it/listening to it and calling it retro. You're right that you probably won't hear baroque music on Z100 but if you try moving your dial you'll find it there.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[Dragonfly]

I am not old or young and am smack in the middle. I only wanted to add my opinion. It has been insanely difficault for this midwestern hick here to filter through all the WRONG stereotypes I grew up accepting as "definitions" of what butch and femme meant. I am FINALLY getting a good handle on them and now someone wants to toss em in the trash and pick new ones??!?!? UH UH... just think about what that is saying.... just when the average non queer person is getting enough exposure to BEGIN to understand who and what we are standing for we go and CHANGE all the words they normally misunderstand and are starting to finally "get it".... Sounds like we can have both old and new whats the big deal. Add them as new ones dont replace them for the original ones!


** Just me imagining trying to explain that to my mom and pop who are just finally starting to "get it" and I dont wanna go back to hearing my dad wish me a "Happy Father's Day" in his effort to be accepting of me. Bless his reformed and once abusive heart. We have come to far to go back to square one. I can imagine explaining there are new terms that people ID with and they are >>>> etc.

[Bad_boi]

Butch and femme are just terms. They only limit you if you let them. You can do what you wanna do and like what you like. Butches can do girl stuff. Femmes can do guy stuff.

[Lady Pamela]

All I can say is if it is anique...The younger generations where I live are walking in our footsteps...lol

My grandaughter is very old school butch, Her girl very femme and they both love it dearly..As do all the younger generation I have the honor of working with...smiles

Just saying.

[Kobi]

I am an antique? Maybe I will go on the Road Show program and have myself appraised. What would I go for at auction? I wonder what description the appraiser would give to describe my value or lack thereof?

Nostalgia is making a comeback, as usual. Maybe I can book myself at one of the country fairs, or antique car shows or stuff. Just think, and now, its the antique lesbian show!!!!

I dont see the male community expanding their definitions by leaps and bounds. Maybe its a woman thing, maybe we have internalized too much of the curse of a marketing strategy.

Seeing I have no clue and no desire to learn what most of the new terms mean, I just flirt indiscriminately. It's easier.

[friskyfemme]

I agree with Mr. ent and Diva. The terms butch, femme are identifiable as are
bi, tg, lesbian, straight, gay, queer, hetrosexual, homosexual, and many others. It istrue that someone at sometime coined each of these terms to explain how one viewed, idenitfied, and/or best described oneself and/or someone else. Just because someone doesn't id with the term doesn't mean that it isn't valid or is outdated. This discussion isn't a new one. As us older ones know. However, the bottom line is this RESPECT of others. If there is now an identity that better defines ME, I will be the One who coins it. I am then, now and always a 'Stonefemme'.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

Mister Bent,

Your last statement is how I look at life. If it doesn't fit you, then please don't wear it or tell me that I shouldn't. This is not to disparage anyone's posts. Merely my rule of thumb. If there were a third gender identity that was as easy to use as the term 'butch', I would use it. Butch works for me for now.

Kosmo

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* am going to post from my personal space and my personal take and the way I am in this world.. My femme gender presentation may fall under a new type of femme or a new sort of femme, it does not nor will it ever fall on the antiquated description of femme.. I won't ever be the one who wears the apron, does the high heels and make up at all times, nor is willing to not have a Dominant role in *my* relationship, let me add I do not define femme, as skirt wearing, cooking in the kitchen following 3 steps behind they butch... *I* know I am different than some femmes, not so different from others.. I am comfortable with the lack of dresses, domestication I have.. I like being in charge, I am extremely proud of who I am as a Femme Leather Daddy to downright giddy at the thought of my cock...

*This* is where I think that for me, I get put into a different box of femme or my gender is dismissed because I am not a feminine as others.. *I* personally do not buy to this ideal..

If we look back at the antiquated history of butch femme, you have to know the femme was the power, she was the one who worked, she was the one who gave a safe haven to her counterpart.. Butch.. Who could not like herself go as easily into the workforce and not stand blend in as much as their femme counterparts...

*I* embrace femme, my gender but not by others definitions of it, not because of what I wear or who I am with.. I am femme without butch I am femme foremost...

Queer Leather Femme Daddy, it may not *fit* into what others may define femme as, or claim that my kind of femme is certainly and will not fall upon old school standards..

I am ok with that... I am comfortable and know I have power, being the femme that I am...

I hope this late night rant made sense

[kittygrrl]

i think if youre in the younger crowd you want to make your own and distinguish yourself as somehow different, maybe even better For those of us who are old school using those terms resonate a particular unique perspective..butch/femme work just fine, why change perfection?..

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

perhaps it's a genetic flaw that human-kind feels compelled to disregard its past. it always has. figuring out how to evolve voluntarily...now there's a project.

i join you in your willing suspension of disbelief. i refuse to cast my chosen label aside.

i wont! i wont! i love my little label. it's mine!

i wanted it,

i found it,

i'm keeping it!



ahem.... (smoothing hair)
carry on.

[T D]

Honestly, I don't care if these terms are antiquated or not. They're part of our history and always will be, that's just the way history works. I get so tired of all this mincing of words and definitions. Quite frankly it's one of the reasons I left the "other" site.

As for any and all new terms used by our younger brothers and sisters (or whomever), let em have them... I'm only interested in dating and/or marrying a "femme" who knows she's a "femme". That's what compliments who I am.

Just sayin....