"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Bit

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

I wonder how much of that is cultural? As many of us are parenting I wonder how much our kids soak up. I have a 16 year old Femme who is in the habit of stuffing everyone into a butch/femme box because her role models are as such. It seems we have passed this world view on to her. Which is fine. Until it's not.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

And if they live un non-urban settings or non-coastal settings.

Students at Walter State in East Tennessee are likely to have a different experience than universities in NYC or San Francisco.

Still, I have to say that Butch and Femme as IDs have only been popular for maybe 3 years since the 70's.

Has that detered me? Nah.

I still love BullDykes.

and

Chocolate

[Darth Denkay]

Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words...

[Arwen]

This is a fascinating discussion.

For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called.

I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is.

Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced."

For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian.

I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"?

Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined?

[Diva]

As SF has said early on, I just want to add my and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation.

I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You.

If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve )in today's Youth Culture.

I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

[Bit]

Ooops, Selly, I'm sorry, didn't know you were still posting... *reads*


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I see. *smiles* That's what happened the first time when the Feminist Wave hit Lesbiana, yanno? People went to androgynous. It didn't last, because it didn't fit us all.

The terms Butch and Femme will be here when the next generation needs them, I think.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Diva

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

Dead is very final, but I think that is is accurate. Yes, the harpsichord became the piano and the spinet and the (oh lord it's been a long time since I thought about this. . .) ottavano, right?. . . but the harpsichord isn't in use with the mass culture. Of course, it's not dead in the music world, it never will be (I hope) but if it's out of the hands of the many, that is, to me, dead.

It evolves, it changes, it becomes something completely different. . . But when you unwrap it, you can still see the roots there, plain as day. Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

Music always was one of my favorite subjects. . .

[Words]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

[Gemme]

Dead, dying, on life support or not, I like the terms butch and femme. They feel good in my mouth. They feel right. For me. For someone else, even if they look and act very much like I do, maybe not so much. As Arwen and some others touched on, you can only define yourself and the terms for yourself. Let others define themselves and the terms appropriate for them.

Gemme-Prefers 'on vacation' to dead, dying or life support

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

While you may not hear harpsichord music on z100, there is still music being composed for the harpsichord, and there are, like um, a bazillion more radio stations (and satellite!) than z100.

Perhaps it's true 80% of the people at an "extremely queer" school that offers G/L studies as a major don't know what the butch/femme dynamic is. I would expect that to probably be true just about anywhere. What would be pathetic, however, is if those numbers were reflected in said G/L program. You can't study a thing without knowing its history.

It seems unlikely to me that things have changed so much in the past year since I moved from New York. When I spoke to a group of high school students in Manhattan about gender identity, though they were every single one of them POC, at least half knew the terms butch and femme, and of course, now all of them know it, thanks to me. (*pat pat*)

Once again, I disbelieve that "if the youth doesn't embrace a term it will die." That statement is myopic, at best. Why do so many terms and fashions become reborn? Why do ancient religions, art and musical forms survive? In part because the young don't exist in a void, We're still here, telling our stories, writing them down, passing them on. Our youth are fundamental to change and growth, but they also grab hold of a thing, sometimes a piece of the past, an out dated fashion, and make it new again.

I welcome whatever new language comes into use, but I don't think it will be at the exclusion of "old" terms for identity. No, we're not going to start speaking Latin, but consider how many of our languages would be different, or non-existent if not for Latin.

These terms come about because they signify who we are - that's not going to change. Historically, lot of young queers follow the androgynous route as they "find" themselves (just because they ID as "genderqueer" today, doesn't mean they always will). Other terms may come about to speak to evolved identities, but that doesn't herald the erasure of butch and femme.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

[LieslKate]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

if anyone has answered this 'cause I've not finished all the pages of the Thread... basically if something is 60+ years old its considered an antique... me in SIX.FIVE years !!!!!!!!!! So something that is an antique or antiquated ( the adjective conjugation or discriptive version of the word antique ) is older than that... the Butch/Femme social/sexual dynamic fits that !

I am happy to be an antiquated FEMME Lesbian...

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Words

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

The current incarnation would be butch and femme.

I think that these identities will evolve, and help to shape something else (perhaps andro, perhaps genderqueer, perhaps new wave femme.) I don't think that they will be wiped off the face of the queer planet, but will change and evolve and become something completely different than they are now: a new incarnation.


Hope that helped.

[Just_G]

Like the avacado appliances from the 70's that are coming back again, so will the terms butch and femme some day after they have been unused for a while.

I know my "label" changes somewhat depending on who I am in the company of. When in Dallas with my buddies down there, they consider me a Stud. When around my andro friends here in KC, I am a lesbian....of which I prefer Queer, and when I am around the likes of all you hooligans , I am Butch. My very favorite way to identify. It is what I am, it is who I am, and it is what my tattoo says.

I really think that the terms Butch and Femme will never be dead. Like Diva said, I will take those terms to my grave too, and I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon!

p.s. Jack, love your tool analogy....