Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 25003)

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 25003)

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.




Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 24995)

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 25025)

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 24960)

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O (Post 25054)

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O (Post 25054)

Originally Posted by Cyclopea (Post 25061)

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 24909)

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 25069)

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 25069)

<tongue=in cheek>

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by NJFemmie (Post 25073)

Pardon the derail, but I think you used this analogy just to show off your computer.

pfftt. lol.

Originally Posted by NJFemmie (Post 25007)

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 25055)

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl (Post 25066)

well hi.

sorry it took me so long to get back into the swing of the discussion. i'm not avoiding. some last minute research kept me busy until now.

since i seem to be the trouble-starter this week i'd like to begin with an apology to anyone i've offended with my opinions and my lack of understanding, whether real or perceived.

for my real lack of understanding, i beg patience. i am not unwilling to be wrong, to admit wrongness, to be taught, to learn and to grow. i welcome the opportunity.

for my perceived lack of understanding, i beg tolerance. if i am not being clear it is because i do not know i am being unclear, not because i am obtuse or because i simply refuse to be clear. we use language differently, even if the language is the same one. we use it differently because we are different from one another, even if we are all human. we have different filters, different experiences, different minds and philosophies, and different abilities with regard to critical thinking. i will be the first to admit that i have noticed some cognitive challenges in the last year, mostly having to do with short term memory and with some long term recall. neither of those things hamper my feeling, nor do they hamper my desire to participate positively in conversation, even difficult conversation, and to listen and learn and contribute and be heard.

i'd like to clear up any misunderstanding my posts may have created for anyone by saying the following:

1) i have absolutely no issue with the word "lesbian". i have no issue with any word of which i can think. because language and semiotics and marginalization make up the bulk of my work, i find it difficult to take offense with words, symbolism or the life experiences of others, period.

2) i do not identify my self, my life, my core, my being or my experiences as being a "lesbian" self, life, core, being or experiences. if others do, then they do. i dont have any feelings about the identifying words of others except to acknowledge and respect them and to use those words as required by the people who adopt them. i feel nothing but respect for the experiences of others. i have no need or desire (overt or hidden) to feel otherwise.

3) i have no issue with a dictionary definition of any word. limitations in print demand that many definitions be curtailed. dictionaries change every year. words are added and eliminated. there are dictionaries for "archaic" language and urban dictionaries and culturally relevant dictionaries and so on ad nauseum. none of them are "wrong" or "right" so much as they just "are". they account for the averaging of a particular language as well as a collective human understanding of concepts and ideas. they do not, however, encompass all that "is". there exists too much of everything for that.

4) if one person feels complete and satisfied with the definition of the word "Dog" as one that encompasses all domestic canines, i am not offended. if another person feels the same definition is limiting of specifics and variation and nuances and so on, i am not offended. if someone does not feel the word "Dog" encompasses all that some dogs are, i am not offended. i understand that my analogy is silly...but it serves my point somewhat. if a person says X is the word i use to identify myself with then i too refer to them as X. if someone says i do not use the word X...i use the word Y...then i also use the word Y to refer to them. my opinion and my language do not matter. Y is the word i use, out of respect primarily. my understanding expands to encompass the word Y as something new in my paradigm. that is evolution on the individual level. many individuals, all expanding their paradigm, leads to evolution on a more global level. it is critical thinking and philosophical growth at its best.

5) i am neither a "lesbian" by the dictionary definition nor by a personal one. i do not partner with people who identify themselves as women. i partner with transguys and/or male ID'd butches. the words i use are not "gay", "lesbian", or "homosexual" because i do not feel they are right for me. i do not have a single solitary issue with any of those words or anyone who uses them to define themselves. they are simply not my words. i do not speak for anyone except myself unless i am relating the stories and experiences i've been privy to and am free to relate and then, i am not doing so to represent anyone, i am simply relating a story. i do not speak FOR anyone except myself. any belief to the contrary is mistaken.

6) if someone tells me they are X...because they've been told they are X or the dictionary defines them as X...i worry, but i accept their decision. if the same person tells me they are X...because they feel X and they know they are X then i accept them as X and do not worry. i expect the same in return. as an example, if a person tells me they are a butch, female identified lesbian then i go forward using those words for that friend. if someone tells me they are a male identified butch, a genderqueer person, a lesbian, a transguy, a man, intersexed or that they use specific pronouns (hy, hir, ze, she, he and so on) i assimilate those words for that friend. it is not confusing to me and it does not bother me. i wouldnt presume to be bothered by the words anyone else uses for themselves.

7) i expect to be treated with the same consideration i extend. when i am not, i remove myself from the situation. if i am considered unacceptable it does not bother me. i am comfortable being unacceptable. moreso than i would be conforming to an identity that is not mine.

i am a queer transsensual femme. as with all people, my understanding of myself continues to evolve as my mind evolves in its role as part of cultural and global evolution. when someone calls me a lesbian i am going to engage in conversation with them and give them different words for me. i am going to do that because i respect myself and because i respect them enough to share myself with them on a personal level. i grew up in a world where lesbian was the ONLY word to use. as the world and my understanding changed i realized i was using a word that did not belong to me. it is not only out of respect for myself that i now use different words, but because i see some of the nuances of words that makes me feel as though i am being moe respectful of others when i DONT use the word for myself. that may be an odd-Kathlene-only phenomenon, but it is how i feel nonetheless.

words dont offend me. they are tools. mistakes dont offend me. they are also tools. intent and intention are the things that can carry the weight of offense in my world. regardless of my feelings, in the moment or long term, i also choose to believe that things are not solely as i see them...because it is impossible for me to see everything. i will be honest about my own feelings. that's the point of this long-winded and slightly pedantic post. in the same long breath, i refuse to presume that anyone here has either intent or intention to harm/offend/marginalize me.

thanx for playing.


:hippie:

~ ~ ~ ~