My ONLY point, AtLast, was to answer a very clear question that was posted in the thread; "why call a Butch one thing here on the site and another at home?" I believed (and still believe) that the statement after that question, that the answer would be germane to this endless discussion, is true.

When I posted my answer, I had no clue that June meant there were people who, as betenoire said, use male pronouns just to fit in online. I mean, come ON, this is an issue which has been exposed and endlessly debated in the online butch/femme community since 2002 or before! That's EIGHT YEARS of attention brought to the fact that the male pronoun default in use at that time on that website was wrong.... and yet we're saying here that people are still today---on a completely different website which was deliberately set up to include and validate butches-as-women---using male pronouns that absolutely in no way at all fit them, trying to "go along to get along"? WTH?

It mystifies me.

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything.

I was honestly not aware of folks doing this and can't imagine the internal struggle that must be going on inside those that do, or have done, this.

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Separate story: I used to have a friend who would use whichever pronoun was convenient for ThatPerson's conversation. If ThatPerson was talking to say, people from work where she didn't want to be outed, she would use a male pronoun for whomever she was dating/friends/whatnot. If ThatPerson was talking in a queer circle, and ThatPerson wanted folks to know she was queer, she would switch up to a 'she' pronoun as a means to out her. There was no respect whatsoever for the actual person ThatPerson was talking about...it was all about her own comfort level, and all about what the pronoun choice did for her (whether protecting her from being outed, or outing her if in queer space). Personally, I think this is more disturbing to me, because A) it's obviously disrespectful to the butch being talked about, but B) it's also USING the disrespect for personal gain. I also find it homophobic.

I don't really know why I feel the need to share those stories, but they seem relevant to the conversation right now, and it really bugs the shit out of me. Pronouns are NOT for OTHER people to decide based on their own comfort level. You can't vehemently defend OnePerson's pronoun and demand respect for it, while completely 'whatevering' AnotherPerson's pronoun...especially when you're demanding AnotherPerson respect OnePerson.

But to then take someone's pronoun and pick and choose, so you don't get 'outed' or so you do get 'outed' is just (to me) the hilt of disrespect and laziness.

And I will bet money, if I he'd a great majority of the femmes in the world, there'd be a world of hurt coming my way. And if I were then corrected, and said something like, "Oh yeah, whatever, I refer to all femmes as he", I'd get double the hurt.

So, seriously, WTF? Because, I just don't get it. I don't get how it's any harder to remember SoAndSo's pronoun as it is to remember your mother's or father's pronoun. If you really, truly see me as male, then it's not difficult. And if you really, truly see SoAndSo as female, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Now if you're just switching them up because it's convenient for your own conversations...you're just self-centered.


Dylan

I think this post/question is very thoughtful in terms of how socially entwined our views on gender and equating male to be strong and female to being weak. I understand this as a submissive guy. Certain people equate submissive bottom as weak or less than guy. This is not true.

My entire life experience has been just this. I was born submissive. It shows up all over the way i have lived my life professionally and emotionally. I spent some years of my life denying this because of trust issues, not this issue,but have discussed it intensely in therapy. I mean i am well aware and experienced that there are butches/guys/femmes out there that see me as a freak and think i should maybe man it up. I do not prescribe to this kind of thinking.

I love it when my Ms's masculine energy takes over. It is a dynamic not an identifier. She is no less Femme to me. From my knees perspective I quietly see a difference in how this energy is recognized from this community to my offline community experiences.

Responding to Dylan, but not copying the whole thing....

I appreciate that you shared these stories, because this stuff does happen. As I posted earlier, I do check that pronoun spot on the profile bar because I do want to use the correct pronoun. I wouldn't want to be called he...tyvm...and I don't want to do that to anyone else either.

When I first joined the dash site I made friends with a butch who had hy as their designated pronoun on the profile. Okay, great. I called hym hy. When I met hys girlfriend, who also refers to hym as hy online, she called hym she. Now I'm confused. I asked the butch....what do you prefer?
Hy said "oh either way is fine." Ugh. Okay, now I'm really messed up. If I call hym she online, others will eat my head for disrespecting. If I'm talking about hym to her, do I say she? Please know that I'm truly NOT trying to be flippant here (and it's okay, cuz they're friends and we had this conversation already), but it is crazy-making for those of us who do care, do respect that, and do want to call you what you prefer to be called.

And yes, some people do ignore stated preferences...and I find that very disrespectful.

And...Dylan...as a side note, you had me totally stumped with the MIB's and FIB's for a minute....cuz I was seeing MIB and thinking "Men In Black?" :blink: Sorry.....my son's favorite movie....duh....

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Thanks for your post Dylan. There does seem to be a stubborn refusal by a segment of femmes that I find baffling. It certainly is not all femmes. There are plenty of femmes who partner with or date trans men and male id butches who are very supportive and use the right pronouns or ask when they don't know.

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

[quote=DapperButch;106099]Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That fact that anyones defaulting instead of asking is simply lazy (like Dylan said) and with that laziness shows a great deal of indifference to those who get the short end of the default stick...

Because to default, you have to make a choice of he or she... and in that consciously choose who to disrespect.

When people who've been in the community for some time say that they do still use default pronouns... truly it says nothing to me about the he's or she's, or their value... but it speaks to me about the person who defaults, and their internal values.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Ahhh, I misread you then. Thanks. :)

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways.

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

exactly! it's personal!
 

a zillion times yes!

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways. [/QUOTE]

Hey Gemme, actually I never noticed you use the chicken and egg thingy previously.

The chicken and egg reference (in my post) was to say perhaps that what caused a female ID'd butch to feel pressured to ID as "he" in the forum seemed more pertinent (to me) in the conversation than the idea that her doing that was somehow partially the source of "confusion" for people (about pronouns what-ever) because of some "mixed messages".

I'd assume since no one would really be aware a peep was doing that (except in this case June who knew her privately and seems to still be able to use correct pronouns etc. after the event) that such an occurrence wouldn't really have an affect on whether people can ask or know what pronouns to use etc.... in that I really don't see how it's "undermining everything" as you said either.

Also... I'm not seeing where I tried to choose "what posts do and do not elicit a response" in you (point it out if you like)... rather I simply said that that I found it interesting and relevant. Perhaps there is some misreading going on, both sides... but I don't do that, not that type of person.

And absolutely correct "criticism" is different than commentary...

Anyway, thanks for responding but I'm out on this one.

Metro

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...:veggie:

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan