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gives a whole new meaning to the concept of being "computer literate"! :cracked: |
Originally Posted by Cyclopea http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
LMAO!!! Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy? :jester: Quote:
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i agree. language does matter. it simply has huge variation in its meaning (which we're proving right now). this isnt a discussion about the meaning of the word "lesbian" anymore. it's a discussion about the ways in which we can each see a word or a sentence or an idea as meaning something very different than it was intended. i do not dislike the word lesbian. i dont dislike lesbians. i dont dislike female identified lesbians. and yet, that's how i came across to some people. i wanted to discuss the obvious (to me only) expansion of language that happens to some people when they exit one definition and enter another and so i joined the conversation. i expressed an opinion based on a common idea for many BFP members. i didnt do it in a way that was clear. it also, as has been stated, wasnt asked for or invited. but...sigh...i did it. my example is less obvious than your very good one: i dont use the word lesbian to describe myself and then require that my attraction to and/or behavior with someone who identifies themselves as a straight man be included in the definition of the word. clear as muddy muddy mud? |
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Cheers Aj |
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So that makes perfect sense to me. I'm curious, would you then say that you are homosexual or bisexual? And thank you for your patience, semiotics is completely out of my academic venue (which is computational biology/biomedical informatics) so I may be completely oversimplifying language. Cheers Aj |
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THANKYOU!!! i've been holding my breath! i'm really tiptoeing around right now feeling like a bad academic and a bad femme and a bad person and boo-hoo-hoo-poor Kathlene-boo-hoo-hoo (PLEASE read that last bit as sarcastic!) |
just to throw another wrench in the works
from last year's Urban Dictionary
lesbian n.) A gender identity in which an individual defines themselves as female (woman) and actively embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic and sexual energies geared toward another person who also defines themselves as female (woman). transgendered n.) A gender identity in which an individual defines his/her self by a sex and/or gender other than the physical determination given at birth. Transgendered identity presentation does not presume a/any specific sexual orientation/identity (homo, hetero, pan or asexual -- lesbian, gay, butch, femme, queer, etc.) femme: n.) Gender identity in which an individual (female, male or other) has an awareness of cultural standards of femininity and actively embodies a feminine appearance, role, or archetype, usually--but not always--associated with a gay or queer sexual identity/sexuality; more accentuated and intentional than a straight female gender identity or gender presentation and distinctly challenges standards of femininity through purposeful transgression against binary gender paradigms. n.) Person (male, female or other) who identifies and/or presents an overtly feminine or feminine acting gender identity and sometimes--but not necessarily-- embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic and sexual energies geared toward an opposite gender presentation. Occasionally used to denote an individual, or the submissive role in a relationship. v.) To actively embody a feminine identity or gender presentation. adj.) Feminine in a quasi-traditional and/or non-traditional way--or referring to something/one (male or non-female) that/whom is related to or embodies a conscious femininity. butch: n.) Gender identity in which someone (female, male or other) has an awareness of cultural standards of masculinity and actively embodies a masculine appearance, role, or archetype, usually--but not always--associated with a gay or queer sexual identity/sexuality; more accentuated and intentional than straight male gender identity or gender presentation and distinctly challenges standards of masculinity through purposeful transgression against binary gender paradigms. n.) Person (male, female or other) who identifies and/or presents an overtly masculine or masculine-acting gender identity and sometimes--but not necessarily-- embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic, and sexual energies geared toward an opposite gender presentation. Occasionally used to denote an individual, or the dominant role in a relationship. v.) To actively embody a butch identity or gender presentation. adj.) Masculine in a quasi-traditional and/or non-traditional way--or referring to something/one (female or non-male) that/whom is related to or embodies a conscious masculinity. |
Isn't it interesting how things evolve? I'll take my part of the trouble-making pie and sit down with it for a while.
For me, this conversation began because ONE LINE out of a fairly long post I made stood out to Cyclopea. As time went on, I realized I had written it backwards, so I definitely understood some of the confusion as to what I was saying. I take responsibility for not wording my thoughts exactly as I meant them. I would never invalidate another's identity or self-image knowingly or willingly, although...through the night...I felt just that way from Cyclopea and AJ. Arwen and hippie have said the same thing at varying points. Like both of them, I had to step away from this thread. I needed to try to regain some perspective and get in touch with myself and find out what kind of place I was coming from exactly. Now, I come back in, refreshed and hopeful and I see that hippie (Kathlene, if I may?) has done a wonderful job bridging the differences. If you aren't in PR or politics, you SHOULD be, girl! :) I am honestly very sorry for those that felt, along the way, my point changed from "you are a lesbian and it works for you and that is GOOD but I am not a lesbian, but am homosexual by definition, so all homosexuals are NOT lesbians" to "all lesbians are bad because I don't identify that way". I never meant to say that, so if someone could pinpoint the specific post(s) where I actually said that, I'd be grateful. Please let it be clear that I am NOT invalidating the fact that feelings were hurt. I know mine were and I apologize for my part in hurting others. What I am saying, and I ask that anyone who may respond to this post read this next part VERY CAREFULLY as I am doing my best to make myself as clear as I can, is that while I agree that all lesbians are homosexuals, not all homosexuals are lesbians. That's it. That is bluntly EXACTLY what I said. Never once did I attempt to make someone justify their identity nor did I invalidate it, although I felt like both were happening to me. Never did I say anything derogatory about lesbians or Queers or Martians or anyone else. I just made every attempt I could to help those who misinterpreted what I said or my tone. Along the way, Corkey and hippie and NAAG got what I was saying with some clarification and I appreciated that. Kosmo was able to present what I was trying to say better than I did and I also appreciate that. In the end, everyone's filter is different. Everyone has different sensitivities. Everyone has different personal definitions (whether they coincide with Mirriam-Webster's definitions or not). Our past experiences color our present and future interactions. I acknowledge this and think that I've learned something in reading the past couple of pages of dialogue that will help me in communicating with people here. For that, I am very thankful. Everyone wants to be HEARD though and that's why I felt it necessary for me to come back in here. Hopefully, it doesn't stir the pot or cause anymore rabblerousing. Like I said earlier, hippie's done a great job of smoothing the ruffled feathers and I don't want to take away from the wonderful posts and progress she's made. I just felt that my point had been twisted and turned into something it was never meant to be. And that is something I could not let happen. In this environment, we ARE our words. And I will not be changed into something I am not. |
In the true spirit of liberation
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I want to make my opinion and intentions crystal clear with regard to my previous post in this thread because I feel that you largely missed the point of what I said. I will enumerate my points to avoid further confusion and because I realize that a lot of ground has been covered in this thread. 1. I never believed that Tura was being intentionally hurtful. 2. People are capable of being insulting or hurtful without intending to do so, sometimes folks just act callously or thoughtlessly and need to be called on it. 3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT. I realize some people have a lot of hurt attached to the word "lesbian" because of painful, personal experiences. Many, MANY of us as butches and femmes were wholesale rejected by the larger lesbian community or partners we cared for, simply because of how we interpret our queerness, myself included. Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here. For those who reject the identity "lesbian", I would ask for you all to think about how it would feel if you heard, for example, someone proclaiming, "I am NOT transensual, it squicks me out", or stone, or nesbian (not equating these words, just using them as examples), or whatever words you choose to embrace, simply in order to define yourselves. To me, it feels like coming out as a femme to the larger glbt community all fucking over again. I'm sick to death of having to defend and explain being a lesbian, and what that looks like presented by me, to other homosexuals especially. If someone were to mistakenly presume that all b/f folks are transensual, for example, I (who am not transensual) do not feel the need to defend myself by breaking my id down in a way that would hurt those who are transensual. Isn't it hard enough for people to just move through the world as queer without hearing that their identities and sexual proclivities make other members of their community nauseous? That sort of judgment, couched in the safe haven of "personal opinion" feels secretly fascistic to me. Again, I want to know, why must anyone define themselves in negative terms? Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. Yes, I get that diversity is grand, and that all our triggers aren't tripped the same, and I say vive' le difference if it's a genuine expression of who you are. If not, taking a moment to face a truth that might make you uncomfortable, but which will ultimately help liberate your authentic self, is crucial to our evolution, individually and as a group. Examining our own potential homophobia and misogyny is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied. |
QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.
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Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused. |
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ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity. |
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It's rudeness that I take umbrage at. So, while we're on the subject, I find this particular statement extremely rude and patronizing. How on earth have you concluded that rejecting lesbian identity is an earmark of "change" and "evolution" for lesbians? Guess what, lesbians still exist as (Shock! Horror!) lesbians. What you said intones that those who remain lesbian id'ed are not evolved. It implies that the logical evolution of lesbian identity is... a rejection of lesbian identity (wtf?). I find what you said to be incredibly arrogant, dismissive and mythologizing of many of us, especially in light of the fact that you are male id'ed and, I'm assuming, non lesbian. Is this how you have reconciled your journey to self actualization as male? What I mean is, I'm assuming at some point you thought you were a dyke/lesbian (if not, please forgive the assumption), and along the way, fully embraced the fact that you were actually male. So, do you identify your journey as a natural course of "lesbian evolution", and for your femme counterparts, a full on rejection of the identity, because that's how it played out for you? I'm really curious why you're framing it this way. If you don't get why I find what you said appallingly condescending, let me put it to you this way; It's something akin to a guy telling a "bunch of hysterical bitches to just calm down" as he laughs at their outrage. You have no right to make such a pronouncement about me, or other lesbians. Now, if you actually id as a male lesbian, then I'd be really curious to hear your take on your own personal evolution. If you aren't, Id prefer that you refrain from making determinations about mine and that of other lesbians. Your beliefs DO NOT determine the evolutionary process, no ones do, not mine, not anyone's. Only nature can put her pimp stick down on that. |
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I had thought, yesterday, about posting something I manifestly don't believe just as an example: 'I'm not trans. I would never want anyone to mistake me for trans. I would be upset if someone said I was trans!" Now, if I said that wouldn't it sound like I was saying "trans is something I want as far away from me as possible". You can almost hear the "get it off me" even in this venue. My beautiful wife, Belly, is bisexual. When I first came out, I identified as bisexual (until my *second* lesbian relationship because at that point I realized that unless something VERY interesting happened, I was never going to have another heterosexual relationship) but I would not say "I'm not bi! I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for bi because that just squicks me out." Firstly, such a statement would, in fact, be an insult to the woman I love and it would *hurt* her. I know this because I have seen the hurt in her eyes when lesbians make very unkind comments about bisexuals (who, it seems, are still considered acceptable whipping girls in the community). Secondly, my identity is not really defined by who I was but am no longer but by who I *am*. Being a black woman, I don't define myself as a not-white woman. I define myself as a *black* woman. Being a geekgrrl, I don't define myself as a not-mainstream but as a geek. Being a butch, I don't define myself as a not-femme but as a butch. Being a lesbian I don't define myself as not-anymore-bisexual or a not-anymore-heterosexual but as a lesbian or, alternatively, a dyke. You bring up an interesting point in your statement "I'm Cuban but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". I have heard Caribbean blacks make a point of saying that they are NOT American blacks--as if that were not something a decent brown-skinned person would want to be. If I were to make a point of saying I'm not Jamaican, one would be somewhat justified in saying "hey, Aj, what's so wrong with Jamaicans that you're so emphatically NOT one". Now, I've had people ask me if I was from Jamaica (because, don't ya know, ALL black people with dreadlocks are from Jamaica) and I've corrected them by saying "no, I'm an American born in America". But that's correcting a misinterpretation. I've had people ask "what country are you from" and I'll tell them the same thing, I'm an American who was born here. Again, correcting a misinterpretation. I've even had people say "why don't you go back to Africa" and I've corrected them by pointing out that given the reality of the transatlantic slave trade, it's likely that my bloodline has been here longer than their bloodline since my bloodline HAD to have hit these shores by 1809 (when the slave trade across the Atlantic ended) while their bloodline could easily have showed up on Ellis Island in 1910. But, again, that's not saying "I'm not African" it's simply correcting historical ignorance. There's a difference and I've been so caught up in the emotions of this topic (yes, Virginia, I DO have emotions! LOL) that I haven't been able to put it into something coherent until I read your post. So thank you. Cheers Aj |
How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.
However, the narrow minded views of what a lesbian is or is capable of expressing in terms of her sexuality and identity that are quite often expressed in butch femme circles feels like internalized homophobia and anti-woman to me. A woman who is attracted to another woman - lesbian- or a woman having sex with another woman, just simply isn't enough- it's limited, less evolved, something people need to be clear that they are NOT. Whereas queer/genderqueer/masculine identified/male within a female body and those attracted to such people are the cutting edge, revolutionary, evolved genders. By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She. |
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Although.....flip your arguments, please. By claiming lesbian so strongly, are you (in general or those who feel this applies to them) DENYING every other form of sexuality and sexual expression? If so, why is this claim so different from those who say "I'm not lesbian"? I do understand about a post or two being worded hurtfully. Taking that out of the equation, aren't those proclaiming lesbian doing the exact thing that the non-lesbians are being accused of doing? Quote:
Women can definitely be masculine. So can those who do not identify as women or connect with their female body. I think masculine is a connection between woman and man, separating them from each other but keeping them intertwined simultaneously. |
I have a whole lot to say and lots of responses to get back to so I will be posting as soon as time permits!
I do hope everyone is having a wonderful and peaceful holiday! Happy Holidays Everyone, even you Lesbians!! LOLOLOLOL!!!! |
best wishes for the New Year
well hi,
i've read and re-read the posts that make up this thread and i have a question for any/all who might care to answer publicly or privately. is my original post, the reply i wrote to "Victoria" in which i said that i'm not a lesbian/do not identify as a lesbian offensive? did it sound like i was saying "OMG that's disgusting! i'm not one of those people?" i ask because when i made the statement all i was thinking was "lesbian isnt the word i use for my self." i wasnt trying to dissociate from the word because i thought there was something wrong with the term itself or with anyone who is perfectly comfortable with it. i was responding to a post that seemed (to my necessarily limited understanding) to insist that we all use the word lesbian as a self-identifier. that was it. it was suggested earlier this week that i am patronizing in my responses and that "no one asked for" my opinion. if i derailed the conversation and/or was not welcome to participate or if i was rude to any who posted or who has been reading the thread i apologize. my excuse for my original post was based on the name of the thread and the comments of a particular participant. as for being patronizing, i can only offer the lack of human connection between typist and reader(s) as an excuse. i do not wish or intend to patronize anyone. it disturbs me that things i've said may have contributed to the deterioration of our discussion from the sharing of our varied experiences and different understandings of the world to the semi-denial of one another out of some perceived threat, one that i dont feel ever existed. my responses are, in part, responsible for that (mistakenly) perceived threat if, when i wrote a reply to "Victoria" or to anyone else, i said anything that gave one of you the idea that i was claiming some kind of superiority simply because i do not use the word lesbian for myself. i've read my posts and do not see a "better than" mindset in my words. though i cant promise to see every flaw in my thinking i can, however, be certain of my intent and hope it comes across. when it doesnt i will clarify. that's all i was ever trying to do. i feel that many of the questions i posed remain unanswered but i hope that there will never be a question about my own feelings about any person, here or elsewhere, when it comes to this subject. i am writing to both extend my well wishes to all for a very happy and rewarding new year as well as to unsubscribe from our discussion. i feel as though i've shaken a box of precious objects and in doing so, done damage that i would never have dknowingly or willingly done had i realized what gifts were inside. each one of you has presented me with something that i value by sharing your passion and your opinions and your selves in this venue. you are wealth that i take with me into my work and into my negotiation of the world every day. i am sincerely grateful for each of you. Happy New Year :snowysmiley: :antler: :snowman: kathlene |
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