Originally Posted by Nat (Post 106476)

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 106496)

where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

Originally Posted by oneye (Post 106635)

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 106638)

That's funny. I've always recv'd an inordinate amount of shit over the attentions I pay to MY Beloved's most private of places. The majority of the flack has come from other Femme's but is not exclusive to them. It never ceases to shock and upset me...that my Beloved and I are somehow *other* for the things we do to each others bodies.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 106645)

Oh, and I really -really- need to clarify that I don't think that anybody who is Stone is bad. Or lazy or weird or anything else. I need to clarify that before somebody takes it the wrong way and gets their feelings hurts, cuz aside from the rare case that I get a personal vendetta going (and you gotta hurt one of my friends to be on the receiving end of that) I don't like to hurt people's feelings.

I'm taking inventory in my head of the people I've dated, and it seems like I've been with as many people who were Stone as people who weren't. (There's actually only a difference of one.)

For me, I'm a pleaser. And by "pleaser" I mean I like to do whatever it is that the person that I'm with would like me to do. I have no boundaries in terms of things that I won't do, and very few in terms of things that I won't have done to me. And that includes not being squicked out if someone wants me to not touch their organic stuff. I'm comfortable either way, and perfectly happy provided that the person that I am with at that time is respected and comfortable and happy sexually. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 106650)

Can we pretend that we both authored this post?

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 106652)

Yeah, cuz ilu!

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 106667)

This is the part of the thread that people get uncomfy with, the mentioning of the vulva and it's many uses, and I know that someone out there is going to drive by read this and wrinkle their nose at the icky thought...:spider:

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 106609)

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down. ;)

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

Originally Posted by Bit (Post 105559)

Because this right here, the online butch/femme community, is the one place in the world where it's safe to say "he" about a person who is living in a female body; more than that, it's immediately understood with little or no explanation. *shrugs*

but it's not understood--it actually adds to the confusion. and what does that do to the entire *person* while we (as a community) shove aside the *female* and pay some homage to "HE" of said person?


Also, sometimes it's the Butch's choice, not the partner's; so in that case, a person would not be flipping back and forth depending on the audience, but out of respect for the personal preference of the Butch.

it is the butch's choice, she does have control over choosing her pronoun (which includes the 'when/where' option), so it actually is flipping back and forth dependent on 'audience'. and do you think it's at all reasonable to request a femme to ping-pong between pronouns, dependent on some arbitrary set of rules? (this becomes no longer about gender--it's about something else, entirely--and not just safety tho i can understand that that is a concern--but when you have multiple rules surrounding pronouns i have to wonder about what that means.)

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

could you walk me through how using a MALE pronoun is anymore validating than using a FEMALE pronoun?

It seems like a really crucial point to me. I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity; for some Butches, this is the place they come to find validation of themselves as whole people, as "both female and male."

it feels actually less 'whole' to me because it seems like the "butch" is being parted-out like a junkyard truck. (not that i'm trying to console/mother/care-take anyone, here.)

As for partners using different pronouns at different times? For many people, it's easy to write one way and speak another--"he" online, "she" verbally--and very difficult to navigate speaking in two different ways about the same person. I never used to have any problems with that, but lately I find that I've been slipping; at first I was accidentally saying "he," but lately the overwhelming pressure the rest of the world puts on me to ONLY speak about Gryph as "she" means that I sometimes find myself saying or writing "she" when I would ordinarily use "he."


this has me curious, what is the 'he' that the 'she' doesn't encompass?

Here's the reason I accept that pressure: my allowing myself to be in the habit of saying "he" (in other words, saying "he" at home) could cause serious problems for Gryph--his co-workers, for instance, have sometimes been brutal about his identity--and his old friends, his family, my family, the local community, our neighbors, none of them would get it if I said "he." It would make life immensely more difficult for us both, and would not bring any benefits to either of us; it's better that I just say "she" when I'm speaking (verbally) to other people about Gryph.

is 'she' less-than? did Gryph use 'she' prior to meeting you?

Going back and forth between facebook (she) and BFP (he) sometimes trips me up; facebook is one of those places where the communities collide. A significant number of our facebook friends would be baffled by having to deal with Butch gender identification. (Our friends are certainly baffled by having to deal with my Femme gender identification--baffled to the point that I gave up trying to explain it long ago.) In that case, we figure our friends who are from the butch/femme community will get it about why we have to use the female pronouns for someone who has always been known in this community as "he," especially as it seems to be a pretty common occurrence among the Butches we're friended with.

Gryph, being a Two-Spirit, honestly does not care what other people call him, but I think if *I* stopped calling him "Daddy" and "he" it would puzzle and hurt him very much. I am the one person in his day-to-day life who sees him as he actually is, both female and male. We both need me to say "he," whenever and wherever it is safe to do so, and we both know that in order to avoid making mistakes, I have to be pretty consistent about where I say "she" and where I say "he."

...

I didn't say anything about it (although I was flabbergasted; "beautiful"? Has she never paid attention to his pictures, to his wonderful craggy face?) because I don't know what he would want, and that's what's most important in a situation like this: how Gryph wants to respond. The person is someone he cares for, someone he's shepherding through a rough time; he very well might have decided either to speak or to let that go, and I have no right to decide for him. (But it was damned hard to hold my tongue!)

can't a butch be beautiful? can't Butch, be beautiful?

...

And that's the reason I say "he" here.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 106700)

Butches ARE beautiful. How can anyone negate THAT?

Originally Posted by PapaC (Post 106703)

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

Originally Posted by PapaC (Post 106703)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.