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weatherboi 06-12-2010 09:23 AM
Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant




Quote:
Originally Posted by CamBAMF (Post 128417)
Whoa hold on. I'm not saying men, (FTM or not) have the right to do ANYTHING they want because they are men. I simply comment on the fact there is a big issue with this particular gendered area for no ryhme or reason (of course this is my opinion).

I don't find that sexist, because I dont believe its just men. Its of no real consern of mine if a woman does her business in the male restroom or a guy relieves himself in the female bathroom. I'm not going to call security on a female in the mens room- and its not like females have NEVER used the mens room for one reason or another. But that doesn't make the news. Its not news worthy. It doesnt bother men (typically speaking). And thats just what I expect from decent humans beings- women and men. This isnt the right to vote. this isnt asking a female to wipe a guys bottom. He relieved himself in a room which sole purpose is to go to the bathroom. Unless he peed on the counter or committed a random act of violence I dont see the issue. If there was no vandalism or physical harm, then I think we are over-reacting.

By the way, saying that a woman has the right to feel safe and not a man can also be sexist. Sexism works both ways here. Forcing someone to use the mens room when it makes them uncomfortable- well its similar to FORCING a one of us (FTM who are comfortable in the mens room) to use the female bathroom- it seems it would make some of us feel incredibly uncomfortable. People have the right to feel safe- men and women alike. Thats not abusive or sexist.

I'm just saying we are arguing that where a person relieves him/her self has become a gender issue because we (as in society) made it an issue. We seperated these rooms- and thats all they are really. They are just rooms with toilets and sinks- its purpose to go to the bathroom and wash our hands. Most of us have ones we our apartment and houses, and we share it with opposite genders just fine. We seperated them and said who can and who can't go in them. Why? Probably out of fear, I don't honestly know, I never did the research. Like I said previsouly, I'm the one all for family bathroom. There is no gender to them, and they save space, time, energy, and money.

Your totally right about the ones making the most noise about the mens room never used it. I am sorry to hear about your bathroom experience. I suppose I have been very lucky. I'm only devils advocate because not too long ago I was freaked about going into the mens room, and I had no indication that I shouldn't be either. Thankfully I have a really great set of friends and an ex girlfriend who helped me. I'm no longer like that, but I can understand it. Frankly, hes not here to defend himself, so none of us know why he was in there or how hes feeling.

And again I'm saying that if he REALLY did this for attention, then he got exactly what he wanted. Because guys like us are sitting around a computer after the fact talking/ debating about it.

The Oopster 06-12-2010 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus (Post 128443)
No.. it's the part where you said:

"males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM..."

MTFs are women.

FTMs are men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamBAMF
the last estimate I heard was 1 out of 12000 males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM... but I did also hear that gap was closing. and these estimates were taken when I was like 8 years old..
I woindered if that wasn't what you were talking about. It sort of caught me, but I figured cam was quoting a study and guessed the study was referring to 1 out of 12000 identified as males at birth are MTF so actually identify as woman and 1 out of 34000 identified at birth as female are FTMs so actually identify as men.

Jet 06-12-2010 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 127641)
So, does that mean you're going to wait until you have a full beard before you stop using the women's restroom?


Dylan
I'll never wear a beard

Rufusboi 06-12-2010 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet (Post 128742)
I'll never wear a beard
Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus

Billy 06-12-2010 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufusboi (Post 128785)
Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus
That's what I'm saying ....Why after everything we go through to be seen as MALE , want to go into the womans room .....You can't have it both ways ..

Jet 06-12-2010 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufusboi (Post 128785)
Beard or not you should respect women enough not to invade their private space.

Rufus
who says i would invade

Rufusboi 06-12-2010 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet (Post 128789)
who says i would invade
The word INVADE means to intrude upon or encroach upon.

If you enter the womens bathroom and you are identifying as male then you are invading.

Rufus

Logicaly 06-13-2010 12:26 AM
As of right now, I do use the womens restroom. However that being said, I have not started T, nor had any surgeries. It is however very akward for me to use the womens restroom, as there are times that I do get looks, or I have been stopped by men, from entering the womens restroom. Once I am more passable, I fully intend to use the mens room.

That being said, I do think that if a person can pass no problem as a male, then they have no business in the womens restroom. I cant imagine why they would want to bring that discomfort onto a total stranger, and I guess for me, since I feel such discomfort already with being in the womens room, that I cant imagine that it wouldnt make someone who is completely passable, extremely uncomfortable in the womens room.

The Oopster 06-13-2010 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 128421)
No, I found latex tubing at...it was probably Lowes. It came off the roll, right next to the clear tubing you're talking about (brought some of both home, so I know exactly what you're talking about).

Yeah, I had to mess with the length too.

I have to say, while I have some of Target's free spoons, I've found the ones that I actually paid for ($1.78 from probably WalMart), work just a tad better. I don't know what it is, but yeah, they do work just a little better. It took me about a month or a month and half to really get the medicine spoon (either the free ones or the other ones) down pat.

The latex tubing is VERY hard to get around a regular medicine spoon. One trick is to take an eye dropper and melt it around the base of a cut medicine spoon (so it makes a funnel...so it looks like the link you posted), and then just put that in the latex and drag the latex thru the packer (someone on youtube has a video of this, but youtube jams up my computer <sad face>, so I can't link to it).

I'll be honest, I don't pack everyday, because it's just too damned hot here (I just carry the spoon). Last thing I need is another heat rash somewhere uncomfortable (I've got a binder that gives me all the heat rash I'll ever need). Working outside in this heat makes everything uncomfortable enough. But I have what I'm talking about (wish I could explain it better), and it works as well (because basically it's the same thing) as what that guy sells on transitionalmale. I couldn't figure out that guy's sizing. I don't know those measurements down there. Seemed too much guesstimating...especially when I have all the materials and can custom make whatever I need.

I cut the medicine spoon down to desired length, melted the medicine dropper (that came in the same package as the $1.78 medicine spoon) to the end (so it looks like what you linked to only shorter) with a cigarette lighter. Let it cool (I actually used ice water to cool it off, cuz I'm impatient). Stick medicine dropper into latex. Fish latex through. Voila! The end of the dropper sits in the packer about 1/2 inch or less (can't really remember exactly, but it's definitely not more than 1/2 inch)...but it's not uncomfortable, and it doesn't look weird or anything.

The worst thing I've run into is a decent packer harness. But a lot of that has to do with the heat here. I don't like to pack, because it's just too freakin' hot, and I don't want a bunch of extra crap in mahhh drawers creating more heat.

But thanks for clarifying. I totally know what you're talking about now. I had that issue too, and solved it by melting the dropper onto the end of the spoon, so I could make the total length exactly what I wanted.


Dylan
Hey thanks for more detail... i'll have to check out lowes if i'm ever around one ..... not a lot near where I live.

Since I don't own a lighter wouldn't have thought of the melting trick.

Plus i'm sure a lot of people don't know about the possibility of free medicine spoons. I wouldn't have thought of asking since it's something they sell. Price is a tad higher here too ... but everything is in cali.

CamBAMF 06-13-2010 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus (Post 128442)
I did purchase from them but they have the worst business practise I've ever seen. I actually had to file a complaint with the BBB before they responded to me --- over 6 months after I had paid and repeated emails to them. I discourage anyone who wants a PackAndPee from buying from Mango.
I can see that. Twice I bought from them and twice they were late. But As soon as I sent them an email (and it wasn't a nice email) my products were shipped... I also heard there is a site that other people have used. Djknowsdicks.com but when I visited there it look incredible unprofessional. Idk

CamBAMF 06-13-2010 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus (Post 128443)
No.. it's the part where you said:

"males are MTF and 1 out of 34000 females are FTM..."

MTFs are women.

FTMs are men.
oh my mistake, I was refering to biological males and female- the gender before transistioning. so odds are 1 out of 34000 females is transgender and will transition into a male.

CamBAMF 06-13-2010 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherboi (Post 128528)
Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant
I understand that. I mean I was female, I have girl friends, and I had them before transistioning. I know the going ons in public bathrooms. This sacred space is the nature of the beast in which society created.

In the UK (mind you this is not a first hand experience account) the law says anyone may use any public convenience, regardless of gender, provided that they are using it only for it's intended purpose.

It's not a female space- its a public space that was granted to females for reasons unnown- likely fear. Its not fair for any of us to say that a FTM has to push past thier fear to use the mensroom, but a female does not have to push past her fear to share the room. There is no privledge here. This action of relieving ones self made news somewhere. He wasn't let off because he was a guy- but I haven't heard a report on females entering males room. Like I said before, no one bats an eye if a female uses a males bathroom. I did when I was young, I've seen girl friends, and female family members use mens bathroom for different reason. You can not say a female bathroom is sacred space, but a male bathroom is fair game.

I feel like everyone is throwing the word sexism and safty but not seeing that these things work both ways. It is just as sexist to say a man/ftm can not go into a female bathroom because that is a sacred space to them- and they fear us, but its okay for them to come into the mens room. And its just as sexist to say a Ftm HAS to use the mens room (where they are uncomfortable- for safty reasons) because using the females room makes them uncomfortable-for safety reasons. Whos comfortability is worth more? Thats why I am for unisex/family bathroom. We are equally uncomfortable. no one has 'priviledge'.

Now, I am defending the FTM, but do not misunderstand me. I do not think it is right to make anyone- whatever gender feel uncomfrotable. No I do not want girls uncomfortable, but neither do I want my FTM brothern to feel uncomfrotable. I am not misogynistic by any stretch of the imagination. I am a huige supporter of womens rights, but only till they are equal to the male counterparts. No one is better then the other.

I do not work in gender. I don't do things now because its the guy thing. I never did things before transitioning because it was a girl thing. I am a human. I would in the plane of other decent moral humans. The right of feeling safe in public space is one shared by all genders. The right to relieve ones self is shared by all of nature. This has become an issue because we have split the two most popular genders' restrooms- an action that has created nothing but other issues on sexism combined with the rights of public space- all for safety purposes; which I'm sorry to say- just do not work.

Unisex bathrooms are the future... Thats all I'm saying.

CamBAMF 06-13-2010 01:56 AM
yea thats what I saw... Thanks!

Linus 06-13-2010 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamBAMF (Post 129048)
I can see that. Twice I bought from them and twice they were late. But As soon as I sent them an email (and it wasn't a nice email) my products were shipped... I also heard there is a site that other people have used. Djknowsdicks.com but when I visited there it look incredible unprofessional. Idk
I've actually bought from there as well. And the product is just as good as Mangos but they actually respond to emails (nice or not). The guy that runs it is an FTM. Very simple operation but he's also a responsive business man (that is, he cares about YOU as a customer).

He is not, however, a web designer. LOL

chefhmboyrd 06-18-2010 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy (Post 128788)
That's what I'm saying ....Why after everything we go through to be seen as MALE , want to go into the womans room .....You can't have it both ways ..
amen brother billy, you guys need to put on your big boy pull ups and got to the damn men's room where we belong.
@

chefhmboyrd 06-18-2010 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logicaly (Post 129042)
As of right now, I do use the womens restroom. However that being said, I have not started T, nor had any surgeries. It is however very akward for me to use the womens restroom, as there are times that I do get looks, or I have been stopped by men, from entering the womens restroom. Once I am more passable, I fully intend to use the mens room.

That being said, I do think that if a person can pass no problem as a male, then they have no business in the womens restroom. I cant imagine why they would want to bring that discomfort onto a total stranger, and I guess for me, since I feel such discomfort already with being in the womens room, that I cant imagine that it wouldnt make someone who is completely passable, extremely uncomfortable in the womens room.
it is not a matter of "passable" it is in your mind. if you walk in there like you have been in there your whole life, then you got no worries. walk in there scared like a lil girl an you will get nervous and think everyone is staring at you. it is up to you to decide when you are ready. and if you are uncomfortable going in the women's room, then it's past the time bucko.

@

The Oopster 06-19-2010 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd (Post 133063)
it is not a matter of "passable" it is in your mind. if you walk in there like you have been in there your whole life, then you got no worries. walk in there scared like a lil girl an you will get nervous and think everyone is staring at you. it is up to you to decide when you are ready. and if you are uncomfortable going in the women's room, then it's past the time bucko.

@
dang not sure how long ago but it was a couple years ago ... I hadn't started injectible T yet. Was on the cream but still didn't completely pass. Mainly my voice though but some people could figure it out.

I was on jury duty ... went into the women's bathroom the first day and right away could tell that wasn't going to work. Since no one knew my legal name, I was just a number I used the mens that whole week. Of the four people I hung out with, I think 2 of them figured it out but it was cool they were respectful and as far as I know didn't say anything to the 3 rd. In fact he cranked the song "detachable penis" while I was in the car .... it was hilarious cause he was totally clueless.

My other funny bathroom story was some cranky ol guy at my AA meeting was getting after me for using the unisex/family/handicap bathroom not too long ago. I tease with everyone that i'm the only one that fits all three symbols on the sign.

I started using mens changing rooms about the same time I started using the mens restroom. Targets have everything in one area now so it's no big deal but other places I was buying in the mens so it was just easiest to go in there and no one ever said anything. There were times a sales clerk would have to help me also.

I 've known women to use the mens that don't even pass at all if they got to go and it has no line. The men may tilt or shake their head but that's as far as it goes.

It's just hard to realize the dynamics are so different until you just go ahead and use it.

I started in areas where I wasn't going to run into people I knew. If around my parents I would decide I had to go after they were all done. I'm not around dad often so I think that would still be weird but I do go into the mens room with a ton of other men that have seen me go through this process, and to my face no one has said anything except the story I posted above when I didn't use the mens room.

tuffboi29 06-19-2010 05:47 PM
So I've been in here a few times...and not just out of curiosity. I had passed of living as a guy for about 6 monthes one time and had never been happier.
Although I never exposed that side of me to my family and now that I'm living near them I can't pass it off at all as they are well known in the community.
I was asked today when I look in the mirror what do I see? I answered..."I see what should have been a guy".
Because of the predjudices I've grown up with and in this community I havent had much exposure to the life I want to live. To be blunt I'm a bit scared and confused.
Luckily I have a wonderful woman by my side helping me explore deeper into myself than I was ever willing to go on my own. As a matter of fact...she was the one who got me to admit not only to her but myself the true nature of my feelings and thoughts.
I know I'm rambling a bit guys...I'm sorry.
Maybe this is a reach-out to those who may understand my angst, confusion, and need to simply be me? Idk...
Any feedback would be appreciated as I am dieing to know if I'm the only one feeling this way?

Liam 06-19-2010 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffboi29 (Post 134049)
So I've been in here a few times...and not just out of curiosity. I had passed of living as a guy for about 6 monthes one time and had never been happier.
Although I never exposed that side of me to my family and now that I'm living near them I can't pass it off at all as they are well known in the community.
I was asked today when I look in the mirror what do I see? I answered..."I see what should have been a guy".
Because of the predjudices I've grown up with and in this community I havent had much exposure to the life I want to live. To be blunt I'm a bit scared and confused.
Luckily I have a wonderful woman by my side helping me explore deeper into myself than I was ever willing to go on my own. As a matter of fact...she was the one who got me to admit not only to her but myself the true nature of my feelings and thoughts.
I know I'm rambling a bit guys...I'm sorry.
Maybe this is a reach-out to those who may understand my angst, confusion, and need to simply be me? Idk...
Any feedback would be appreciated as I am dieing to know if I'm the only one feeling this way?
I will never forget the first time a woman looked at me, and saw me—really saw me. I had spent so many years thinking that it was all in my head. It was one of the most delightful moments of my life.

Best of luck tuff!

tuffboi29 06-20-2010 04:00 AM
First of all...Thanks guys...Seriously...Thank you.
So right now I'm quietly and discreetly packing...umm...My boxerbriefs.
Besides this and one other post I haven't spoken about this with anyone but my girlfriend.
I have to say it feels...idk...right?
I'm just learning what this in me is exactly...definitions and such...But more importantly how alot of this applies to me.How I relate to it.
I've just recently admitted for the first time my first fantisies.Which were of girls.And as myself in the male role.
What I thought of as a child. Could I maybe wake one morn and be a boy? Would I finally be "right" then?
When I first realized I was a girl I was made to use a public womens restroom for the first time by myself. I was horrified and thought there was a very serious mistake on the adult's part in making me go in there. I kept thinking just why the HELL they would force me go in THERE with the GIRLS?
Before I was old enough to understand the difference between the boys and girls, I ran with my bio male cousins on the farm...I ran about shirtless with them, hunted and went fishing with them, climbed trees and explored the woods and farmlands.I was one of them.
I remember trying to explain to my ma just why I shouldn't go to the girls bathroom or wear dresses and even the time I told her I was goin to marry a girl one day....the words she used to describe MY thoughts and MY f****** feelings (when I was once told my thoughts and feelings were just THAT...MINE!)...I was told I was unnatural...god would call me an abonmination...I better NEVER tell anyone else lest I embarressed the family at church...Guys, I was sent to a M*****F****** christian therapy camp to help "cure" me of these evil thoughts for surely the devil was tempting me to go against god's will.
When I was older and with my ex-wife I saw a news report back in '99 about a successfull operation to make a female into a male. My first thought was "OMG MY WHOLE LIFE COULD BE THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"
Stupid me tried to open up about it to my ex and once again the words that were lashed at me shut me up all over.(What if she told my parents?!They had me committed once for this.)
So untill these past 4 months my thoughts on this subject were as limited as my knowledge and understanding.
I feel like I'm rambling again so I'm goin to end this with a final thought and thanks.
My thanks is to my wonderful ya'fa girlfriend who brought me not only to this site but took the time and patience to help me understand what myself and others had sought to destroy and hide.(And of course she ever so discretely guided me to FTM threads and friends of hers...lol)
My final thought is for you guys.The bravery it must have took to forge this path!! I will never be able to express my gratitude too be able to finally speak freely and ask the questions I was never given the chance too.


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