It's different for everyone, and I don't think there is a particular thing you can point to and say, "this is where butch ends and transman begins." It's important to keep in mind that who you are on the inside and your physical sex don't always match up in the hetero/cisgender-normative categories. I, for example, identify as a transguy, and not just simply male. The trans is part of who I am. There are guys who ID as male only but were born with female bodies. There are self-identified butches who have or want top surgery but still consider themselves female. There are male-ID'd butches who don't want to physically transition, and some who do but still consider themselves to also be butch. There are butches who consider BUTCH to be their gender. Gender isn't something that can be quantified and put into a spectrum where you can easily parse it into categories of trans or butch, etc. Butch can mean different things to different people, or it can be a both/and type of thing. The best thing to do is ask each individual what their ID means to them. I don't think asking someone that is going to ruffle any feathers, so long as it is done respectfully. Asking someone their preferred pronoun instead of just assuming it is one way or the other, is respectful too.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful, lol. It's just complicated and there is no way of getting around that.

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think. :)

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

Thank you for your honest reply, Liam. I really appreciate it.

I think that atomiczombie really hit the nail on the head with his post.

To answer the question in the simplest form... There is no place where butch ends and transman begins, they are separate identities...until they no longer are.

In terms of butch always equaling woman/female, as atomic said, many would argue that. Some would say that "in the beginning", butch = woman/female. Some would argue that. Depends are where you were/are/what you read about "the beginning".

Yeah, I may challenge the charge through my bank and paypal. Hopefully, paypal will redflag them and stop letting them do business (exchange money) through them. I'm just so busy right now. I'm going to graduate school full-time, working full-time and remodeling my house. I just put up 3 new ceiling fans. Oy vey, I need a wife, a partner, an amigo/amiga. :)

Hopefully, no one else will be advantage of by them. I just want to warn everyone about this company because they are widely known in the trans community and many people recommend them. I've ordered from them twice. The first time I had no problems. The only complaint I had about the one binder I received was the shoulder straps. The straps are made out of a hard inflexible material that pooches out as the binder rides up.

Overall, I feel like the company is a scam. I'll never give them a dime of my money again.

I appreciate that your question here and your other posts have been done in a respectful way. Many of the guys have already given their takes on this and really many here have been answering this question and similar ones for a few years now.

Now, I will give you my version. I have wondered for years, where does Butch end and Transman begin. For me, it is a blurry line. I have always seen "Butch" as a third gender. I have never seen myself as a woman, female bodied, yes, but not the same as other women. Not better, just not the same.

I cling to my identity as a butch because it is how I have seen myself for most of my life, since my teen years. Back in the day, there was not the "Trans" option. This opened up quite a bit for myself and others similar to me. It changed my thinking about gender. For me, I can no longer stand by the binary model of gender. Male or Female and nothing in between. I have "transitioned" but that has only aligned my outer presentation with more of how I see myself, masculine appearing. On my inside, I am pretty much the same person.

I do not want to be a "man." I want to express who I am, how I feel on the inside. I feel and express primarily in the masculine. I also am very cognizant of my history, I was born into a female body. I do not view this as a mistake. I see it as part of my life journey and why I am here. In fact being born into a female body and primarily expressing as masculine has been a gift, a plus. For many years I did not see it as a gift, now I do.

For me, how could I ignore where I came from? Where this round of my journey began? I am fortunate that I have an identical twin sister. I have had this feminine expression mirroring me and I mirroring her for a lifetime. We are made of the same DNA and yet express so differently.

There are times I do use the term "Transman" to explain myself. In my mind and for me, Transman and Butch are at times the same. This is not true for others. I think to make it easier at times, I just use the short hand and inclusive term, Queer to self identify.

Thank you for your response, Greyson. You've given me much to think about.

T and gender identity
 

Wow I had a post I spent a lot of time writing and accidentally deleted it.
LOL, I guess that wasn't, meant to be shared.....

The bottom line of it all is that everyone has different physical, emotional, mental and spiritual reactions to taking hormones. T is a very powerful substance.

I feel it's inappropriate that anyone says anything is real or unreal, for someone else (specifically here) based on taking T.


:praying:

femme that loves trans
 

HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

First welcome to the site. There is a great deal of material here to read on this site. Do a thread search. You will find threads started by "Significant Others" of Trans and/or Butches discussing similar questions you have. I would say, read the words carefully of what people are saying. Try not to color what you are reading with your own subjectivity. If you are not sure of what the poster is saying, go ahead and ask them for clairifacation. Remember that commuication requires listening as well as talking. ( I have to remind myself of that one myself.)

Finally, do not personalize posts you are reading. Evaluate the information, "take what you want, and leave the rest."

sorry about the post, just hard to express myself sometimes. I know what a person does is not what they are and i will try to figure out what i am wanting to say and express it better. just a small town girl who never really had anywhere to discuss this type of thing before. Sorry again

Hi, sanee. I know Corkey and he didn't mean any harm! He is a good guy.

I hear you saying that you are seeking a masculine energy person who straps when making love. Just an FYI: You will find butches who identify as male and strap, but will also find butches who identify as female who strap. So, if the issue for you is the way they make love, you may find that in either identifying butch.

Then of course you have men who identify as transgender or transsexual and may or may not take testosterone. Often they strap, as well (you just need to ask!)

I hear you that it is hard to find people (butches/transmen) in small towns.

There is a general singles thread here (but I don't believe it is a "pick up" thread), and I think that there are some butch/femme/trans dating sites. You could ask about that in the singles thread. I think there is also a singles femme/transguys thread, as well.

Welcome to the site and I hope that it makes you feel less alone as a femme (check out the femme zone for some connection with other femmes!)

That would be frustrating. For the longest time I did not know where I fit into the community because I was attracted to femininity and the types of women that wore make up, high heels etc were hard to come by. They were either taken or straight. If I were you I would maybe find a queer group/church or bar if that's your scene close by and start meeting people.

Hey no worries, just hard to express myself, and not always sure what different terms would mean. I grew up in a small town and moved close to Memphis about 7 years ago. Just started getting out last year at the local center and meeting other people and doing things with them. They are a great bunch of women and going there probably saved me since i was having a hard time personally when i first went. I just know that I miss that male energy I had been around for years and am still looking for it. Once again, sorry if i had offended anyone.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/index.php?pageid=Reunion

I suggest if you live near memphis that you make plans to go to little rock in october for the reunion (above link) You'll find lots of the energy there!

I understand what you're saying about male energy. I display my own brand. I'm totally the opposite from Corkey. How I express myself sexually is a part of who I am. A reflection of my desires, power, vulnerability, thoughts, past experiences, etc. My behavior, whether its in the bedroom, at work,or at play is a part of me. I don't think that energy is necessarily something you see but feel. Be ready cause when it happens....Sparks!!!

I'm asking the FTM community...
 

I am not trans in any way. It is very confusing, in certain ways, to me.

I have a few questions which some may either flame me for or feel are really ignorant (true) and offensive (trying not to be). I am posting here because I have faith that the title of this thread is genuine, and because I genuinely do not understand these particular aspects of the FTM culture...and I cannot think of a better place to ask than this thread.

I assure you that: 1. I AM ignorant, which is why I would like to ask and become more educated, 2. I am NOT intentionally trying to be divisive, critical or offensive (the opposite actually), and, 3. I am asking because I genuinely am interested in your various answers.

Here are my questions:

If you are an FTM, and consider yourself a man, ID as a man and live as a man:

1. Why do you wish to hang around with dykes?

2. Why are you interested in relationships with gay women as opposed to straight women?

3. How are you any different than any straight guy off the street, and why do you come here, to this site, which is for butch and femme lesbian women?

4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?


Thanks in advance!

Also, it has been mentioned to me that I have a certain posting style and writing style, which are apparently different from other posters. I suppose this may be true.

However, as was accidentally misunderstood in another thread, I am NOT a Moderator, nor am I trying to impersonate a Moderator, nor am I trying to cause trouble to get the attention OF a Moderator.

I am simply and genuinely interested in understanding the FTM community more than I currently do. If you'd rather PM me, that would be great, as well.

I am not FTM, I am TG. However, I am going to comment here, as I think my thoughts could be helpful to you.

1)There are people who define as a man, but not as male. I am thinking that you are meaning male when you say man. You may want to clarify that, so that you get answers from the group you want to hear from.

2)Additionally, are you only speaking to FTMs who are taking testosterone? I think that you might be. Again, you may want to clarify, as there are many people who define as transsexual or FTM who do are not on testosterone, yet in their hearts and minds live their lives as "male". They may or may not pass for male in society.

3) This site is not for butch and femme lesbian women. This site is for butches and femmes who may or may not define as lesbian. They also may or may not define as women. The site is also for queers (which include all sorts of genders/sexes), even though they do not have this in the title. The Admin have made this clear.

My sense of you Hunter (in general), is that you are genuine in your posts. I believe you to be genuine in your interest in this subject, here. I hope that others see this, as well.

I hope you get the answers you are seeking.

I'm not an FtM but I have my own personal answer for this one. I don't consider myself a "lesbian" and I don't consider my wife to be "lesbian" (nor does she).

I am queer. I am not a Woman - but rather somewhere between male and female and I happen to have a female body.

Gillian is not a lesbian because even though she IS a woman - she is in love with someone who is not and is sexually attracted to a wide spectrum on the "butch" scale - but not bio male. (to her bio males have a different energy than FtMs / Butches / Gender Queers)

So I would say that not even all of those who don't ID as FtM consider themselves Lesbians. :)

Or I could have waited a few minutes and just said "What Dapper Said"... ;) lol

Big Smile
 

Hunter -

Hunter -

See? lol

I wrote my post b/c I was concerned that the responses you would receive is people wanting to clarify your language and such (kinda like me), and I am thinking that you don't want the discussion to go that way. We like to derail around here!

tawse, I echo your thoughts here!

Or I could have waited until you wrote your post! lol

I hope it is ok for me to respond here. I wanted to answer Theo's question about why a lesbian Femme would partner with a transman or TG Butch.

I am a lesbian Femme. I am a woman. I am partnered with a Transmasculine Butch who has transitioned. He does not use the descriptor FTM for his identity. I am attracted to queer masculinity. My partner has that. I have met some transmen who do not have a Butch feeling to them. So all I can tell you is that I am drawn to Butch energy in whatever form it may take. I could also partner with a female identified Butch. I met my partner and he and I clicked immediately. I fell in love with him, the person.

My partner does not identify as a lesbian. I do. I don't see any issue with that and I do not feel the need to change my identity. Queer probably defines me better because that encompasses his gender identity.

I have to agree with you Theo that this site is not only for lesbian Butches and Femmes. My partner is Butch. He is not a lesbian.

1. Much like Theo, this is my community that I've known and gotten comfortable with in the last 5 years. I have many friends who are butch or femme.

2. My g/f is a pansexual femme. We met when I first started transitioning. My attraction is to femme queer women.

3. I'm different in that my experience includes life perceived as a butch/tomboy and that I wasn't raised as a straight boy/man.

4. Welcomed as anyone. As admins have stated this site is beyond just B/F and open to everyone as long as we're respectful of the differences we have.

I think one of the things that is important to recognize is that this site is more than just butch/femme lesbians. That it includes queers, pansexuals, and more.

And here's where the problem begins :p

Not everyone who is trans, who is born "female"-bodied or with XX chromosomes, who has "transitioned" to "male"-bodied or who is unable/does not want to "transition" (here meaning hormones, surgery etc.), but who identifies as male or transguy or any similar identity, considers themselves an FtM or even "a man." That is a huge problem when it comes to understanding the trans community. For myself, I use the label FtM only to find supportive environments (though, luckily, irl, simply "trans" is most often used so I never have to do the whole "FtM" thing in most places) where I might find like-minded people or people with similar experiences. But when it comes down to it I don't (and can't ever see myself) identify as Female-to-Male or as transsexual. I was born into a body that was assigned female, but as far as I'm concerned I've always been male in my mind. Some would even argue that because a person has always identified as male internally, that any body attached to them is technically male, even if it doesn't fit accepted physical definition (which seems to be changing, anyways). The more research is devoted towards trans people and the reality of their minds/bodies, and the exploration of sex differentiations beyond what is clearly visible, the more the binary appears to not be all encompassing. While male and female do exist, I don't see various trans folks and intersex folks falling into that binary, or at the very least seem to blur the lines fairly thoroughly.

When it comes to my own identity, yes, I consider male pronouns to be the correct pronouns, and the way I've always expected my body to turn out has always been male-bodied. But I've never considered myself female or a girl or a woman, and so as far as I'm concerned I have not, and do not continue to "transition" into anything, because I've always been and considered myself a male person even if I was never fully accepting or considered that way by others. I'm simply a different kind of male or perhaps simply a different kind of human being altogether.

Because I am only really attracted to queer women. I was assigned "female" at birth (which at times seems both a blessing and a curse, since I abhor the body I was born into, but on the other hand wouldn't have it any other way at this point, as far as what I've had to go through in order to be recognised as who I truly am. I would never give up my experience in the butch/femme community.) Many transguys began their journey to self-discovery and acceptance through the lesbian or queer female community, and I don't think they should have to give that up, or give up their primary attractions for the sake of labels.

I just want to correct here and say that I'm interested in relationships with queer women. If I meet a woman who identifies as a lesbian, but who I hit it off with, and who treats me with respect as a male identified butch and transguy and I respect her identity, in turn, then I see no problem with it if she doesn't. That is what I love about the LGBTQ community. We are not often as confined by labels and rigid binaries...though we can be if we want to be :p

And this comes down to part of the reason why I won't date straight women. I am not a trans individual who wants to be "stealth" or appear as a "normal hetero couple." Many lesbians or queer women seem to worry that when they date a transguy/trans male/butch/masculine identity that they will lose their visibility as a lesbian. Hell, I'm equally as worried about maintaining my visibility as a stone butch, queer, transguy general individual, and I would never want to be mistaken as a hetero couple, though I know that can happen at times. For me, many straight women are from a completely different reality than I am from, and there's really nothing for me or for them in that relationship.

I was initially drawn to the lesbian/queer woman community because I didn't know where else I fit, until I started to accept what I always knew. And in the end, it turned out I fit pretty well into that queer community at its most diverse. I wouldn't have discovered my identity and accepted myself without the lesbian/queer female/woman community. Today, it has more to do with what I've come to learn about many queer women over time. Queer women do not often follow the same rigid binaries (though they can), nor are they often interested in them (though they can be). They do not rely on a traditional dynamic (though, sometimes, they can), and in such a relationship neither of us need to be dominant or assumed to "lead" the relationship (though, when a woman/couple wants to, they can...and still be queer...the beauty of being queer, really). Queer women are very good at being reliant on themselves and having a good relationship with themselves, instead of being obsessed with being defined by their partner (unless they want to be). All these things I bring up may outwardly appear to be personality-driven, but to me it really comes out in the physical appearance and presence of an individual as well. I don't want a hetero relationship, with a woman who's interested in fancy black dress dinner parties and some trophy-wife/bread winner dynamic. I want a woman who's a queer activist, who is invested in "queerness" because it's a part of who she is. And with that "queerness" comes an understanding of the beauty of gender diversity. The understanding that, no, I don't want to be a "normal straight guy," but neither am I a female/woman. And I feel that's reciprocal. Someone who I can understand as consciously happy with their own identity as a woman and/or female and/or feminine, but who's identity as a woman/female/feminine individual is divorced from what she enjoys and what she wears and what she does.

I really don't know how to explain it any better than that. Other than the simple phrase of: "I don't want a heternormative relationship or hetero environment." Queerness isn't bound by what is "acceptable" or "traditional" or "respectable" or "normal." It's simply the dynamic two people create regardless of how they identify. Anyone who even identifies as straight would defy what I look for in a relationship simply by us being in a relationship together.

Well, I was born into a different situation than the average straight guy off the street. I was assigned "female" at birth, though have never identified with that marker as long as I can remember. Though I've often abhorred that fate over the span of my life, at the same time it's given me experiences I would never want to give up, even for the most awesome set of cock & balls in the world :p It has also led me to understand myself as simply a different kind of male/guy/whatever. Probably the most important thing is that I'm queer and attracted to queer women (and most often, queer femme women). This community/the general b/f community outside this forum's context, even, isn't one I just randomly waltzed into.

Also, the butch/femme dynamic has not (even historically) been exclusively lesbian. Many butch/femme individuals identify as queer rather than lesbian. Transguys and trans individuals have been involved in the butch/femme community, most likely, since its inception. Or at least we, today, have occasionally heard the voices/words/echos of those who were around in the early days, who were trans-identified (or using modern terminology, anyway). It may not have been the norm, but it was present.

Lastly, butch and trans are not mutually exclusive. A transguy or trans-identified male/masculine identity can also identify as butch. Butch can mean many things, not only woman and lesbian, but third gender, genderqueer/fluid, trans, transmale etc. Just look at some of those who have posted in response to you already!

[/quote]4. How do you think a straight man, who wished to join us here, would be received, in contrast to how you are received here?[/quote]

Well, I think one of the key words there is: straight

Some here use straight to define their relationship/preference, but many use queer or gay or some other word to describe their relationship/preference. Is a straight, cis guy coming in with the same background and intent? A guy who has never been involved in the queer community in the least? I mean, I can understand lesbians or queer women occasionally even pairing with gay or queer men. It's not a completely foreign occurrence. But a random straight dude? I think there's a difference there. Or maybe that's just me.


Also thought I'd drop this link here. You may be interested in reading it, to better understand how some trans people see their sex/gender as beyond the usual binary.

http://tranarchism.com/2010/11/26/no...oms-trans-101/

Sorry for the long ass answer. I've never been good at keeping shit short and sweet, and tend to ramble a lot. Hope it answers your questions anyways. Also helps me to find better ways to explain myself to people in my day to day life, so thanks for asking these questions. It's served as a mental exercise for myself as well, as far as kind of putting myself into words and putting the community/communities I love so much into words. I never quite seem done with that sort of exploration.

1. Obviously to catch a glimpse of two of them making out.

2. See answer number 1.

3. I'm not any different. I'm here to see some action!!

4. Well since I'm not any different, see answer 3.

Real Answers (because Gemme said I had to lol)

1. Actually the real answer is I like nice positive people and some of them just happen to be dykes. Personally my friends come in all shapes, sizes, colors, gender identities and sexualities. Lot's of people in this big world.

2. We don't TRY to date lesbians or at least most of the transguys I know don't. I date people that I have a mutual attraction to. What they want to call themselves is up to them.

3. We are very different (well most of us anyway). We have experienced life with the whole world seeing us in a female identified body. Straight men have not. Everyone has been over the whole not just a lesbian website thing, ok we're good there.

4. I'm sure if he was cool he would be received as cool.


These questions and your perspective about this site are interesting because I've actually heard someone say with their outside of their head real voice say that when butches join the website they are expected to transition after a few months you know because it's something to do when get a wild hair up your ass. I hope that answered some of your questions.

Confused by your confusion:
 

This is strange, I've seen you around different butch/femme sites for years (using different screenames) and I can't understand how you suddenly have a few questions regarding WHY trans people are in queer space.

Further, these are all the same questions that gate-keepers ask when they want to keep trans-people out of "their space".

Your post is creepy and does NOT seem genuine, or from good place, at all.

Amen Sister!

Regardless of your sincerity Hunter, your questions are rude.

Oh. Interesting. So do we know you Hunter? Here I am/others are, assuming you are "new" to the queer sites (and I believe you know we think this), and you are not?

Well, that kind of sucks. Not cool, dude.

Thanks, apretty.

When I first read Hunter's questions I remember a conversation I had with apretty a few years back with similar questions. At the time, I did not realize my own internalized transphobia was at play.

I did not respond to any of Hunter's questions because I tend to try and give some thought to my feelings and responses now. During this time of mulling over that Hunter did post these questions, I did notice the Hunter has not come back to this thread and responded to any of the posts in response to her intitial post, questions.

My question to you Hunter, is where are your responses, comments to all of the people that took the time to respond to your questions?

Personally, on the surface, I don't think the questions were rude.

If it had been a butch or femme lesbian who had never been around transpeople before and then came upon the Planet, I think that they are not surprising questions.

There are people out there who live in small communities and do not have contacts with a diverse group of people. Since the person admitted to being ignorant of information and said they were not meaning to be disrespectful, I took them at their word.

It is a shame that it may be a person who was really trying to just be a jerk. It really sets members up to not be so trusting in the future, ya know?

Greyson, I think this person has not returned b/c she has been "found out".

Oh well. Sad.

Helpful
 

I wanted to thank you all for your writing. I appreciated your answers very much. What you've written is beautiful in its profundity and intelligence. And you handled the questions with grace, taking the higher ground.

I have much to learn about the trans community, but I believe I will learn much here. I also believe you fall in love with a person. I would consider myself lucky to fall in love with someone as brave, self aware and self determined as the posters who responded here, a beautiful exception to the many who are unconscious or afraid to be who they are.

A while back, I attended a lesbian weekend retreat in Galveston. A transgendered person wanted to come along, which created some friction, particularly upsetting one member. I said something to the group like, "Well it didn't stop you from inviting me." They paused, wide-eyed and dumbfounded and then laughed nervously. And then I said, "Really, who's to say who any of us are who should be and what company we should keep?" I was startled and angry. I didn't want to believe that we who had been excluded and stereotyped would in turn do the same thing. People began to reconsider and decided to do the right thing. As it turned out, the lesbian-identified woman who protested too much fell in love with the person she would have rejected. In fact, I think it started that weekend.

So I wonder if Hunter has reasons beyond what she may know or is ready to embrace. For her sake, I hope she has that self discovery sooner rather than later and learns to embrace the queer community in all its beautiful and intelligent complexity.

For my own sake, I am grateful for you and your writing.