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a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space OR b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space. Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting. That is what I think. :bluesbrothers: Yes, I know I am :deadhorse: (and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!) |
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it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs. it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time.... I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me. Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger. He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO". For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?) I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se... It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference. In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it.... In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't. Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all. |
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I have to add that i appreciate the comments about Heart as I have been really having a hard time with her again being pissed-on when she brings up such relevant (yet, not easy to discuss) topics and issues. I'm tired of her (and a couple of other members) needing to exit threads as valuable as this one, especially when they are the ones bringing these critical matters to us all to attempt conversation and hopefully, take some new awareness in. frankly, it just makes me sad. She's kicked me in the butt a few times when I needed it and I am a better person for this because this makes me THINK! I don't know if what I am saying is appropriate or not, but, I just needed to say it. I'm not cheerleading, I'm just speaking my truth and appreciate your being able to as well. It seems that the last few posts from femmes might just move us through so much more and I hope this happens. Also, it feels so fucking good to be involved in a thread about such sensitive butch stuff with trans, MIBs and inter-gendered folks and other FIBs in which we are all comfortable talking about things and not falling into angry stances. This feels respectful and inclusive and frankly, has brought some tears to my eyes and a whole lot of pride to my heart and soul as a butch and member. |
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---------- My name has been thrown out here several times.........laughin..... First for those who are new. I have been ranting/raving/talking about this on-line pronoun issue for at least 10 years now. I have never let up, even when it seemed I was the only butch woman on the other site. It's important. I do have to say this.........I kind of giggle to myself when someone suggests that because I prefer female pronouns and have been known to be the one making footprints on the ceiling, I am somehow less butch or less masculine. Oh wait...........I said I giggled......dammittalltohell.... butches don't giggle.......I forget these things....I'm also not supposed to be called beautiful or like receiving flowers. Snow............yep I do remember being called 'Miss'. I was kind of stunned at first, but then I got over that. I'm rarely ever given to violence, however I would have ripped her face off if I could have. I don't know if I ever thanked those who jumped up her shit for that........thank you if I didn't. I do think femmes police butch pronouns and gender expression far more than butches do. I've never ever had a butch tell me they thought of all butches as he. I certainly have had femmes tell me that.......and the ones who have would shock folks if I named names. I do think I've been policed far more for claiming my cunt and my clit than for my wanting she as a pronoun. Interestingly that policing on both fronts has been done by femmes under the age of 45 or so. I am also amazed that someone ALWAYS comes in a thread about butch woman and defends/talks about male id'd butches...........ALWAYS........EVERY TIME. I had somehow hoped it would not happen here.........but that was stupid on my part.... anyway.........I'm rambling now and I hope this is the right thread.........laughin...........I'm having a mentalpause day.......... |
BUMP!
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My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that. The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that....... My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman. I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen. |
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A place to be accepted and loved for being a butch woman who has a cunt, a clit, and a cock.............. |
i did love a butch, and i still love her, whatever they say about butches, i just love her, including her boobs (lol!), i love the whole package, and no one can stop me from loving her, i love her, i love her, i just love her :love1:
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Coming into a place as a butch woman where you think you are finally with your community and then being He'd all the time and always compared or likened to men- what does that do for the validation for butch women? We are called the right pronouns in the outside world (although still quite misunderstood), but the wrong ones in our own community? :| That's what it was like for quite some time before this site. So the first exposure many butch women had to an online b-f community (and many people have a limited or non-existence real time b-f community) was to immediately be called He. All of us need validation. All of us need support. I don't feel that male pronouns are the default here at BFP. I am very happy about that. I also have no problem referring to anyone as He who wants to be referred that way. |
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This is exactly how it is for me in navigating the world, past and present. And I am glad that it also a space in which those who need the other side/any and all sides to this equation can be themselves. And I will always bring out the wonder I feel as a butch woman with breasts, vagina, clitoris and accessories as needed. (Yup, I’m a breast stimulated cuming, penetration adoring, un-invested in butch cock as required not afraid to say it butch woman that continually is called sir who corrects when called such!Oh, and did you know that some men cum via breast stimulation.. without anything going on with their cock?) Like I said before, I am not going to hide my female/woman features or allow my being female-identified be dismissed or shamed (or relegated to butch-lite - love this, Bully)). I also believe that this community can stand together and fight every form of misogyny and sexism, trans/homophobia or various negative judgments of sexuality (i.e., stone, BDSM) that hurts every single one of us no matter how we identify or live our lives. No, I won't be pigeon-holed to being a man (or male defaulted) either, but to me as a person, recognizing what goes on for people on these various sides is important and is a major factor that makes this a community. I don't have to be something, understand it fully or even agree with it in order to honor its right for recognition and liberty among this entire community (been thinking a lot about constitutional matters lately, so terms like liberty and justice are just on my mind - its an election year with another Supreme Court nomination going on). Oh, I already have ringing in my ears! I don’t care if my butchness gets called into question (although think this is palin bullshit), I know who I am and I don’t partake in popularity contests. The same femme that wanted to change my first name to something more manly also told me I would never gain respect from other butches unless I became enamored with and invested in butch cock. ARGH!! And yes, I have gotten shit from butches too around this stuff (guess she had a point), been snubbed by some of them, etc. - so please, do not take that statement as blaming everything on femmes- I don’t. This garbage falls into both butch & femme categories and we all need to own it and erradicate it. |
A Little Perspective
Tonight I was lucky enough to get together with a group of people that included femmes, a couple butches that go by He, quite a few butches that go by She, and some people whom I am not sure how they identify. Anyway, the important thing wasn't everyone's pronouns or gender identity. What was important was we had good conversation, games, food and delicious cupcakes!
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Bully, Your post has been reported for taunting the rest of us about the cupcakes. Someone needs to share!!!!!! (Did anyone lose a fillng?!) |
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However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you. Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way. |
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I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be. |
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Sorry for the confusion. I think we're all pretty solid on our awareness of people's preferences. But I think femmes are held more accountable than other people if the pronoun is incorrect, or if she admits that sometimes it's hard. |
For starters, I really take offence with the short man with boobs thing this
woman said. I wont go on about my problem with short men. My dad was one,nearly all of my bosses have exuded the stuff of the short man syndrome. It would be completely unfair to short men everywhere to say they are all alike, I get that. With the short man and the boobs word ,I would be completely insulted by them used together to describe me to the fuckin world. Let me talk cows then. Had I been born a cow , bull would be what I identified with from a very young age. I dreamed of having a wife and providing for my family from the age of 10ish. Smallish udders began to appear 6 years after that. At that time, I decided I could have a nice life after surgery. As time went by, I realized there were women who preferred odd ducks such as myself and surgery was not really necessary at this point in time. Later, I realized my mom would have huge issues (nervous breakdown or perhaps tons of dramatics as to what she had done wrong as a mother when it came to me) She would have been horrified. It was hard enough for her to be the first to tell me at 12 "woah you are a butch"!!! I loved her and did nothing. On morphine, towards her passing was when she was able to enjoy me for being just who I am. So for me it's all very personal. 9 times out of 10 it seems people out and about ,or at work etc call me sir. I don't have the energy or words to correct them all. Especially if I'm correcting them to a maam or miss or she. This does not negate the fact that I also am very proud of the many times I have been the first bull with udders to be hired to do a strictly bull job. My honey just reminded me of a movie called barnyard she made me watch with her. The boy cows even have udders. :farmbull: She then told me I cant be Ben the bull because Ben was nice and I'm not a cow I'm an ass. :seconddoh: |
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I truly wish everyone could have been there. :) |
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I've always wanted to see Portland and June's chicken. Wondering if it's like Betty White's muffin....... |
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