It's different for everyone, and I don't think there is a particular thing you can point to and say, "this is where butch ends and transman begins." It's important to keep in mind that who you are on the inside and your physical sex don't always match up in the hetero/cisgender-normative categories. I, for example, identify as a transguy, and not just simply male. The trans is part of who I am. There are guys who ID as male only but were born with female bodies. There are self-identified butches who have or want top surgery but still consider themselves female. There are male-ID'd butches who don't want to physically transition, and some who do but still consider themselves to also be butch. There are butches who consider BUTCH to be their gender. Gender isn't something that can be quantified and put into a spectrum where you can easily parse it into categories of trans or butch, etc. Butch can mean different things to different people, or it can be a both/and type of thing. The best thing to do is ask each individual what their ID means to them. I don't think asking someone that is going to ruffle any feathers, so long as it is done respectfully. Asking someone their preferred pronoun instead of just assuming it is one way or the other, is respectful too.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful, lol. It's just complicated and there is no way of getting around that.

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think. :)

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

Thank you for your honest reply, Liam. I really appreciate it.

I think that atomiczombie really hit the nail on the head with his post.

To answer the question in the simplest form... There is no place where butch ends and transman begins, they are separate identities...until they no longer are.

In terms of butch always equaling woman/female, as atomic said, many would argue that. Some would say that "in the beginning", butch = woman/female. Some would argue that. Depends are where you were/are/what you read about "the beginning".

Yeah, I may challenge the charge through my bank and paypal. Hopefully, paypal will redflag them and stop letting them do business (exchange money) through them. I'm just so busy right now. I'm going to graduate school full-time, working full-time and remodeling my house. I just put up 3 new ceiling fans. Oy vey, I need a wife, a partner, an amigo/amiga. :)

Hopefully, no one else will be advantage of by them. I just want to warn everyone about this company because they are widely known in the trans community and many people recommend them. I've ordered from them twice. The first time I had no problems. The only complaint I had about the one binder I received was the shoulder straps. The straps are made out of a hard inflexible material that pooches out as the binder rides up.

Overall, I feel like the company is a scam. I'll never give them a dime of my money again.

I appreciate that your question here and your other posts have been done in a respectful way. Many of the guys have already given their takes on this and really many here have been answering this question and similar ones for a few years now.

Now, I will give you my version. I have wondered for years, where does Butch end and Transman begin. For me, it is a blurry line. I have always seen "Butch" as a third gender. I have never seen myself as a woman, female bodied, yes, but not the same as other women. Not better, just not the same.

I cling to my identity as a butch because it is how I have seen myself for most of my life, since my teen years. Back in the day, there was not the "Trans" option. This opened up quite a bit for myself and others similar to me. It changed my thinking about gender. For me, I can no longer stand by the binary model of gender. Male or Female and nothing in between. I have "transitioned" but that has only aligned my outer presentation with more of how I see myself, masculine appearing. On my inside, I am pretty much the same person.

I do not want to be a "man." I want to express who I am, how I feel on the inside. I feel and express primarily in the masculine. I also am very cognizant of my history, I was born into a female body. I do not view this as a mistake. I see it as part of my life journey and why I am here. In fact being born into a female body and primarily expressing as masculine has been a gift, a plus. For many years I did not see it as a gift, now I do.

For me, how could I ignore where I came from? Where this round of my journey began? I am fortunate that I have an identical twin sister. I have had this feminine expression mirroring me and I mirroring her for a lifetime. We are made of the same DNA and yet express so differently.

There are times I do use the term "Transman" to explain myself. In my mind and for me, Transman and Butch are at times the same. This is not true for others. I think to make it easier at times, I just use the short hand and inclusive term, Queer to self identify.

Thank you for your response, Greyson. You've given me much to think about.

T and gender identity
 

Wow I had a post I spent a lot of time writing and accidentally deleted it.
LOL, I guess that wasn't, meant to be shared.....

The bottom line of it all is that everyone has different physical, emotional, mental and spiritual reactions to taking hormones. T is a very powerful substance.

I feel it's inappropriate that anyone says anything is real or unreal, for someone else (specifically here) based on taking T.


:praying:

femme that loves trans
 

HI there all
I am new here but thought i would put in my two cents worth. I was with a biological women for 13 years who always considered herself a male. Male attitude, male things , strapped during lovemaking and all sorts of male energy. When she left me, i just about fell apart, but what i was wanting to say was that i toatlly get the post anout the male and female energies. That is wha i am searching for is the male energy and i have yet to find it where i am at or in anyone i hve met lol. It is so hard, you all hide really well and you cant come right out and ask someone, so do you identify as male and do you strap when lovemaking? so frustrating, and cant go bu looks these days either. Any help for me lol?

First welcome to the site. There is a great deal of material here to read on this site. Do a thread search. You will find threads started by "Significant Others" of Trans and/or Butches discussing similar questions you have. I would say, read the words carefully of what people are saying. Try not to color what you are reading with your own subjectivity. If you are not sure of what the poster is saying, go ahead and ask them for clairifacation. Remember that commuication requires listening as well as talking. ( I have to remind myself of that one myself.)

Finally, do not personalize posts you are reading. Evaluate the information, "take what you want, and leave the rest."

sorry about the post, just hard to express myself sometimes. I know what a person does is not what they are and i will try to figure out what i am wanting to say and express it better. just a small town girl who never really had anywhere to discuss this type of thing before. Sorry again

Hi, sanee. I know Corkey and he didn't mean any harm! He is a good guy.

I hear you saying that you are seeking a masculine energy person who straps when making love. Just an FYI: You will find butches who identify as male and strap, but will also find butches who identify as female who strap. So, if the issue for you is the way they make love, you may find that in either identifying butch.

Then of course you have men who identify as transgender or transsexual and may or may not take testosterone. Often they strap, as well (you just need to ask!)

I hear you that it is hard to find people (butches/transmen) in small towns.

There is a general singles thread here (but I don't believe it is a "pick up" thread), and I think that there are some butch/femme/trans dating sites. You could ask about that in the singles thread. I think there is also a singles femme/transguys thread, as well.

Welcome to the site and I hope that it makes you feel less alone as a femme (check out the femme zone for some connection with other femmes!)

That would be frustrating. For the longest time I did not know where I fit into the community because I was attracted to femininity and the types of women that wore make up, high heels etc were hard to come by. They were either taken or straight. If I were you I would maybe find a queer group/church or bar if that's your scene close by and start meeting people.

Hey no worries, just hard to express myself, and not always sure what different terms would mean. I grew up in a small town and moved close to Memphis about 7 years ago. Just started getting out last year at the local center and meeting other people and doing things with them. They are a great bunch of women and going there probably saved me since i was having a hard time personally when i first went. I just know that I miss that male energy I had been around for years and am still looking for it. Once again, sorry if i had offended anyone.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/index.php?pageid=Reunion

I suggest if you live near memphis that you make plans to go to little rock in october for the reunion (above link) You'll find lots of the energy there!