|
Good point uproar might not have been the best word to use, but I understand where you are coming from as well
I too as Linus asked would like to hear the concepts for the femme term |
I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.
As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them. I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject). |
Quote:
I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago. Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now). None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used. It makes for an interesting social study |
When butch femme is dismissed as old terms...
... the whole discussion brings up issues and fears for me cause I have already been through this once in the 70's during the feminist era when I was called a "pawn of the patriarchy" and "copying heterosexual relationships".
The pressure then was no labels. The ugliness of either be andro or you are not welcome in our community and I mean we were ostracized, was sometimes violent. Ever have an angry feminist lesbian pull your hair (too long and girly), push you down and take your heels and throw them, or take your lipstick and write all over your face? I heard in 1970's "butch/femme is dead and old." All these things happened. Those of us who lived through it know that to see it come around again seems dismissive and hurtful all over again. To write us off as too boxed in is unfair and truly offensive. Gender queer works for some, but to say it is more label free or more andro, and imply that it is better and younger and m ore hip, dismisses my history, dismisses me as a vital person in the universe. There is not, for me, a better form of self description. Being ridiculed for being femme or butch and appreciating those descriptors was the norm in the 70's. I published and article about 10 years back about this part of the b/f past, one butch said "Everyone wanted to fuck me but they wouldn't walk down the street with me the next morning. No one would talk to me at meetings. I would walk in and there would be a dead silence." As I said in my first post, I find it very interesting that the discussion is about the alternative terms for butch and none for femme. I agree with Unndunn, about femme invisibility. I, also believe that butch/femme is part of the queer paradigm. For me, a person who is not queer/gay/lesbian/dyke/transensual is not femme, she can be feminine but not femme. Besides, I don't want to change my descriptor. *sits back and waits for it* Then too, I heard b/f is dead or dying. Still here. Still alive. Still kickin! |
Interesting article, while I continue to marinate this topic ...
http://katebornstein.typepad.com/kat...a-butchfe.html Also.. regarding using posts from b-f.com ( the site who must not be spoken... :dots: ) I have no issue with using any reference I can find to help educate myself and/or assist myself in making points that my limited vocabulary/ vernacular might hinder me from doing. While, I will not repost parts of threads from there as per the owners copyright stuff, I do feel completely in the right in using posts there as " jumping off points" or reference points for any conversation I may have regarding the butch-femme dynamic. I appreciate the discussion very much. Thank you Medusa for opening it! |
Quote:
Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke? Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke). |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I'll have to search the thread to find them all. I've never heard of Aggressive, but I don't get out much, lol. |
This topic has had me doing a good deal of reading again. This is a link to an exciting project that tells me the dynamic is still alive and well and embracing folks of all ages.
:movieguy: http://www.apersistentdesire.com/index.html :movieguy: |
A couple of other noteworthy films...
The Aggressives and My Femme Divine.. both document different views on the butch/ femme dynamic. |
Reading through the thread (and the similar one on the other site) one thing stands out to me - the part semantics plays in this discussion. As we know, choice of words can be really powerful. One word that I've seen (on which thread I can't recall) is that the younger generation is re-writing/re-defining butch-femme. When written that way, yeah, I get defensive. Those words, to me, suggest change that more or less does away with the prior terms, identities. In my mind, it implies that butch-femme is no longer and we now will use these other terms, the culture will change, and those of us who hold to the butch-femme community will be left behind. I don't think that's what's happening - the butch-femme community as we know it is too strong to be erased. Younger folks may use different terms, and certainly the culture will change, but I think it's more of incorporating the new rather than replacing the old with the new. Does that distinction make sense?
Several have shared good resources. Another I would add is "Boots of leather, slippers of gold: The history of a lesbian community". The organized lesbian community happened starting in the 30s and 40s, and it WAS butch-femme. I expect lesbians who are opposed to butch-femme would be quite upset to know that, but lesbian history (as an organized community) began with us. Since that time I'm sure the culture has changed, and it will continue to. However, that doesn't mean the history will be erased (which is where I have my freak-out) and I do believe we will always have a place here. I don't see the shift being as drastic as when butch-femme went underground because lesbian feminists saw us as the evil lesbian version of the patriarchy. And if we think about it, at that time lesbians wanted to see us gone - and while we went underground, we didn't go away. I think the current shift is far less drastic, and we won't be going anywhere. Our culture may expand, but we're not leaving. |
Hey Kosmo,
You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic. The reference is Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51. Here's a summary of the results:
Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt. -Wicket Quote:
|
I think how you want to label yourself is up to you. It's like choosing a color of an ipod. Whatever you want, it is your choice. Like everyone else, I too have heard that b/f is dying or dead by now. However, in my life and my world, it is fully alive, well, and kicking.
What would be a new updated or cosmo name for a femme then? I think it is so confusing because I look at a woman's soul morethan what is between her legs. Isadora, I loved your post. I remember those days. Unbelieveable, but yet it did happen. Namaste, Andrew :2cents: |
Goodness...
Just found and read this thread today. (And yes, I am a VERY slow reader - AND A.D.D., thus like to take my time to "digest".)
Seems to me, that "at least" four different "thought topics" spurned off of this intial thought topic here. So, I'm thinking this is a factor in the discussion at hand - as well as the "bits and pieces" of confussion seemingly here and there (?) What do I say? I can't even begin to explain to you all how I feel about the so many different responses here. HOWEVER, I will say... this stayed much more civil than I "THOUGHT" it would. And "thank you" for that. I'll just respond to MY thoughts on the topic, and/or whatever came up that I felt was pertinent. I feel people's pain. I understand the need for "change". I respect everything and everybody - provided that they respect equally back in exchange. (WELL, that would be "more MY HOPE"... I guess anyway.) ___ First of all: *No one can disappear unless they "choose" to, simply... leave. (Or, the big meteor hits, of course.) *History will always be "what it already IS"... *Why: don't we separate what is tough for us in the real world - from what we're doing to each other here? *How about "expectations vs. assumptions", and then JUDGEMENT here in our community? Perhaps we could take a better look at that (?) *I love music, "be-bop" came back. (And jazz, and blues, etc... and some NEVER EVEN EVER LEFT.) I will say that I totally respect ALL persons where they say they are, identities and such... I will also say, I don't understand "how we canNOT"? I don't understand how anyone could "assume" anyone's ID is BETTER than another - what THEY are saying... "is BEST FOR THEM"! Period. I don't understand how folks DON'T understand, to respect that which is before you - to ignoring that part of history...(?) I wonder how/why I continue to be fried for my part of the 70's movement when I was a masculine woman (or feminine, it WOULD NOT MATTER!), and/WHO did not "care" about the b/f dynamic in any negative manner, as I recognized and UNDERSTOOD it was a necessary part of the "history/HERSTORY" part of/for ALL of us. I don't GET how folks are still taking this "personal". I don't GET how folks are judging ME (some general US folks, through that time period), STILL from that also necessary period of time. And I don't get how the other's through this same movement would "today" cling onto the B/F dynamic in ANY negative way, after all of this processing! (EXCEPT for the perpetuated sexist and misogynist crap... which IS REAL, the STILL ABUSIVE SHIT AGAINST ALL FEMALES - NOT ALL JUST ROLE-PLAYED or the beloved in the "BF dynamics".) I don't GET how people don't understand how we can move and grow through changes and accept, accept, accept - as we have surely done... And why do we have to "keep proving" that WE deserve a "spot" here, in our OWN dynamics? Welcoming as we are? (Not "foolproof, no, but it goes BOTH ways"...) ___ I was a young kid, running through the fields of Mich. Fest, with no shirt feeling THAT freedom (for the first time... well, except from childhood when my mother LET me!), listening to music that was basically "folk music" at that time, but FINALLY to MY EARS: "women loving women" music! I went on to become politcally involved during the late 70's, and although recognizing that "there were STIGMAS"... only held truth for that which was the priority for gaining what we needed to gain. I dismissed NO ONE. I thought "lip stick lesbians" were brave actually. (And butches, no matter the thought then!) And now look today where things are. We must go through these processes. I'm TIRED though, of folks relaying this as a "stuck in time" period to crucify FOREVER. I'm tired of being linked to a mentality that just does not hold true for us all as a set in motion "forever stuck thing"! And EVEN if it DOES for certain "political feminists", let the fuck go of that too and respect that! (And PLEASE, "get over it".) Thank you. If you've taken over a government building and still want to complain a bit, then go for it! Otherwise, maybe read and learn... and be just a bit more "thankful", perhaps. (If you haven't done such events.) I'm also tired of folks spitting out "lesbian" as if it were the most horrible bad thing... the worst that you could be called. I'm tired of folks "ASSUMING" ALL folks on a site like this are "lesbians". The rage and anger it spurns is so painful FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, however... I can thus imagine how painful it also must be for those who are from all walks of ID's that do not care for this "generalization". I would be pissed too! Hell, I AM!! But, when this happens, and it gets SPIT OUT, yes, I am hurt. I wish folks would think of it that way too. Could we all be a bit more "considerate" here in this regards? The butch/femme dynamic is so specific, but vague as well. It is our history, yes. Who should be bothered with anything as part of our history? Who should be offended and/or afraid of anything having to do with the future and different ID's and names, etc...? I just don't get that - either. (UNLESS we are negatively "put to rest"... or the future choices are being "nailed as wrong"! I just don't/can't see that...) I DO get that I need to be respected. I DO UNDERSTAND that the current generation MUST BE RESPECTED. I want and NEED to trust them! No one should feel pressured to adhere to a certain "protocol", from the past. No one is STUCK from "politcal movements", (PLEASE again, fucking let that go??? Except for the ones that DON'T want that "let go" WHO WERE INVOLVED, and that is "THEIR RIGHT TO", but being categorized and generalized from this time period today is pure BULLSHIT)! And no one should JUDGE a DAMN THING. Ever. Never. Find how it fits into "your scheme" of politics and/or lifetstyle/history/HERSTORY, fine. But, no one should be judging. We grow, we learn, we experience, we GROW... we learn. Just my intial thoughts on this. Thanks for reading. WILDCAT. |
I am really enjoying this thread. So many of you have made good points. I look forward to see what new terms will be brought in to the discussion. Perhaps one or two among us will find terms that we like - like a new pair of stillettos rather than our old comfortable tennies - exciting but uncomfortable at first.
I was prompted to look up synonyms for the word "butch" and came up with this. (from Dictionary.com) AC-DC, amazon, amphierotic, androgyne, auntie, autoerotic, bi-guy, bisexed, bisexual, bull dyke, catamite, chicken, deviant, dyke, effeminate, fag, faggot, fairy, femme, flit, fricatrice, fruit, gay, gunsel, homo, homoerotic, homophile, homosexual, homosexualist, hoyden, invert, lesbian, mannish, nance, pansy, pathic, perverted, punk, queen, queer, romp, sapphic, sapphist, tomboy, transvestite, tribade, tribadistic, virago There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting. amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary 1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual . 2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once. It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated. Smooches Keri |
I just want to make the point here, that the rejection of b-f people by "regular lesbians" has not ended. This is an email I got around two weeks ago from someone I was talking to on plentyoffish.com (a personals site) She had made the first contact, and we had been exchanging emails for about two weeks.
The headline of my ad on POF reads... "Femme looking for....Well, you know" Hey Keri Thanx for taking the time to tell me what you were looking for and giving me a little info on where you are at. It doesn't look like we are looking for the same thing though. As I said, I'm not into the B/F thing or any roles. I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities. So it was good emailing you but I'm thinking we should just part ways. I wish you the best of luck and hope you meet your dream lover. I mean, I had Femme as the first word in my headline, why did she contact me in the first place if she was not interested in a femme? Also she did not "get" that I also am just me, and that I don't play roles either. A quandary for me, but fortunately not a painful one. I do not think regular lesbians have grown to be any more accepting of femmes or the b-f dynamic. I think b-f people have come out of hiding. I think there are two separate plains of existence, maybe more than two, but I don't think they mix well. Also I would like to say that I am not using the word lesbian in any prejorative way. I love the word lesbian. To me it is our history, our evolution, our birthplace. I'm just using it to illustrate the separate cultures. Hopefully some day we will come to co-exist and comingle easily, but right now I think that is mostly not happening. Smooches Keri |
Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".
I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO. This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general. :cheerleader: |
Quote:
You should be the official BFP researcher. :bowdown: |
Thanks for the response SF. Perhaps I did not make clear enough what I was trying to say. In our emails we were talking about doing activities together, not being lovers.
I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities. She didn't even want to have a femme companion to hang out with. Was I hurt by this? No. Was I perplexed? Indeed. Also a tiny bit insulted. Perhaps I did generalize somewhat from this particular experience. However it has been an expereince that has been repeated frequently in my life, though not recently ... since recently, I was married to an FTM and was perceived as straight. (A subject for another thread.) Smooches, Keri Oh and I want to add one more thing. Yes indeed, we do have MANY lesbians on this site, But I hope, since it is called butchfemmeplanet, that we do not have ANY lesbians on board who would reject someone for friendship just because she was a femme. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] Quote:
|
i think if youre in the younger crowd you want to make your own and distinguish yourself as somehow different, maybe even better :) For those of us who are old school using those terms resonate a particular unique perspective..butch/femme work just fine, why change perfection?..:buzz cut:
|
I am very happy to report that amphierotic is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder. The DSM, which is the bible of sorts for mental disease does not include it, which means at some point it was removed. Kind of like homosexuality was removed in 1973.
Quote:
To be honest, I actually do consider myself an "official" BF researcher. When I was working on my master's degree I was fortunate enough to do research with a prof who is femme, and we did a lot of research on butch-femme - resulted in 5 published articles. So as for academic studies on B/F I keep up with what's out there (although there isn't a great deal). In any case, I am very familiar with the B-F research that has been done. Quote:
|
Hmm...
What is a femme or butch? A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct? Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do. Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc. I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories. I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind. |
Quote:
|
Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.
|
Quote:
Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories. Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific? Quote:
|
Transgendered is a huge umbrella term that is used, everyone on this site embraces their ID or label in their own way.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I am not a Lesbian either! You will find many here who aren't Lesbians (do NOT identify that way) and many here who are. So you are wrong. We are not ALL Lesbians here and please respect that. This is your belief and reality not that of everyone here. With more understanding, maybe that will change for you. I am also Male-Identified. It would be like someone arguing with me when I say: I am not a girl. And they respond with: Yes you are. and I say: No I'm not. And they say: Yes you are. Everyone loves being around those who respect us and not so much with those who don't. |
Quote:
Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others. |
Quote:
The part I've underlined is something you will just have to accept as not being able to do. Lesbian does not equal homosexual. Butch and femme does not equal lesbian. So, there's no way to "prove" this theory since it's false. Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it. Patience, grasshoppa. I wish you luck in your journey. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
This is my view AS A LESBIAN. |
Quote:
I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both. A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless. The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth). |
Quote:
|
Quote:
---------------------------- Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too. We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also. Again welcome, Metro |
I was totally going to do the whole "variety is the spice of life" post, but you beat me to it, Metro. :)
and yes, welcome to the site, Victoria. Quote:
|
And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!
Quote:
Quote:
Why does it feel disrespectful to you? |
Quote:
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers. When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate). I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense. |
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way. When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one. I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way. If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative. When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense. Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)? QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting? Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do? This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL. But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better. |
WOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!
I SO feel that the recent "BUMP" in this thread was meant to be inflammatory.
Good luck folks, but please be careful to not be set up to turn on each other. THAT is my queer GUT feeling here. *Some things just seem to be MUCH TOO CLEVER in an attempt to "appear confused", ya know? I personally didn't appreciate the "directness" with/in the assumptions. Totally instigative in my way of thinking. (And disrespecting every one of us, queer, how we ID, transgengered, etc...) PEACE WILDCAT :stillheart: |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:11 PM. |
ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018