As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

I would try not to find statements like that offensive.

But then again, it was found offensive when I have said "I can't be with someone who doesn't ID as a lesbian because I don't want to feel like I am in a heterosexual relationship."

It opened up a nasty can of ass biting sand worms.
AND I've got the bite marks to prove it.

Oh yeah, and I am a femme lesbian.

Mantra: Live and let live. I think if people spent less time defending and more time enjoying and learning each others differences, there would be less crossed lines.

I have heard transgendered described or defined as Victoria stated, as well. That it is a more spiritual based "gender" view and like some define "butch" or "femme" is in fact a third non-binary gender.

I think sometimes the liberties we ( society) take with language and the freedom to interpret "words" has become so easy to do and culture moves so quickly anymore, it is truly just hard to keep up.

Some folks place a "negative" connotation on the word "lesbian" , because it became viewed as the "made for men porn girl on girl" action. It got a bad rap within our own community, because we allowed it to. Ask five people to define "stone butch" and you may get five different variations.

I try not to get defensive these days when someone says ( or types) something that doesn't mesh with my internal dictionary, because with all of the influences on that dictionary, the very definitions may evolve and they may end up coming full circle if I stick around and watch.

I still have a lot of things I don't quite understand regarding gender choice/ expression relating to sexual choice/ expression and hell, I may never totally "get it" because it varies so from individual to individual. What I have come to understand, is that it is not for me to "judge" . Also that some folks are just easier to ask questions to than others. It takes a while to learn to speak the same language when it changes so much either geographically or within different "generations".

antiques
 

I am not old or young and am smack in the middle. I only wanted to add my opinion. It has been insanely difficault for this midwestern hick here to filter through all the WRONG stereotypes I grew up accepting as "definitions" of what butch and femme meant. I am FINALLY getting a good handle on them and now someone wants to toss em in the trash and pick new ones??!?!? UH UH... just think about what that is saying.... just when the average non queer person is getting enough exposure to BEGIN to understand who and what we are standing for we go and CHANGE all the words they normally misunderstand and are starting to finally "get it".... Sounds like we can have both old and new whats the big deal. Add them as new ones dont replace them for the original ones!


** Just me imagining trying to explain that to my mom and pop who are just finally starting to "get it" and I dont wanna go back to hearing my dad wish me a "Happy Father's Day" in his effort to be accepting of me. Bless his reformed and once abusive heart. We have come to far to go back to square one. I can imagine explaining there are new terms that people ID with and they are >>>> etc.

I didn't misunderstand turasultana, I just felt the language used could have been better chosen as not to create misunderstanding... as acknowledged here yourself. Perhaps some don't feel the subtle knock the way that someone who identifies as lesbian might from a statement such as that (more the "makes me all squicky" than the "weird" part). But anyway I thought QofQ explained that very well.

Just an FYI, these posts are not from me as a moderator, but as a BFP member who wishes we all (including myself) would be more careful when we casually use inflammatory words when speaking of other peoples ID's. We don't need to always agree or think alike (and that's good) but we can try to make everyone feel as welcome and relaxed as we'd want to feel ourselves.

Metro

Wow there is a lot of education going on in this thread, glad to see more people posting

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

"universal meaning"? "scientific"?....of what please? a human being? define "Victoria". what does it mean scientifically? what single definition does the rest of the planet use to indicate "Victoria" to the global population?




i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.



"of course" :canoworms:

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.




thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger. :ohm:

From my "me" place again, as always
 

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual
:LGBTQFlag:

Interesting. I'm black and I identify myself as a butch. I don't know what other term I would use. Stud doesn't particularly resonate with me and, despite my wife saying that I'm a "force of nature", aggressive doesn't feel accurate to me. This is ME, of course, I'm not talking about other black women. Now, I'm no longer a 'younger person' being middle-aged but I wonder if, in another 20 years, when the young folks now are my age will it once again be 'antiquated'. I remember when I was in my twenties, butch femme was antiquated and we were all 'beyond labels'. The refrain of my generation was "I don't believe in labels" which, to no great surprise, always disappeared as soon as the words "look at that cute butch (or femme) over there" and every head would turn and if it was a butch, no one was looking at the woman in the dress, heels with make-up. :)

Sometimes, when I hear that "X does not resonate with POC" I am moved to wonder "so, am I not a woman of color..." but that's a different conversation entirely.

Cheers
Aj

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

I don't understand your argument that the fact that other languages exist somehow changes the meaning of the english word "lesbian".

Awesome! :thumbsup:

Thank you.

*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope. :)

Ummm, no, I don't see how you get there. Because you can take a word in French and translate it to a German word with the same meaning. There is a French word for dog. There is German word for dog. There is an English word for dog. These are not ALL the same word but they ALL reference a four-legged mammal of the species Canis familiaris descended from Canis lupus. The German word for dog is hund. The French word for dog is chien. The German word for dog does not map to the English word for, say, bird. The French word for dog does not map to, say, the German word for cat. Presuming that someone spoke all three languages, they would look at my pooch and could use hund, chien or dog at will and depending upon the listener's tongue, that person would know that they are talking about Angus (our Newfoundland/Bearded collie mix) and not Willow (our calico cat).

Cheers
Aj

This is exactly where I am at.
Lesbian=Female Homosexual, but not the reverse? Not getting it.

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

No problem!!!! :duck:

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.


I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

My focus has not shifted. You said that lesbian was not synonymous with homosexual. Yet it is. It doesn't matter if you say it backwards or forwards. Obviously gay men are not lesbians, nor are heterosexuals or bisexuals. Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

It's not "my" truth- it's the english language, which is the one we are using here. So I guess what you mean to say is "that's the english language, not mine".
Tired of repeating myself! So I'll leave you kids to it!

On a personal note: when someone tells me they are not a lesbian/female homosexual, I believe them and accept them as such! :)

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

I was watching the discussion from a respectful distance, but I couldn't help researching the argument; so I apologize if I've now made mashed potatoes. From Wikipedia:

The fallacy of the undistributed middle is a logical fallacy that is committed when the middle term in a categorical syllogism is not distributed. It is thus a syllogistic fallacy. More specifically it is also a form of non sequitur.

The fallacy of the undistributed middle takes the following form:
All Zs are Bs.
Y is a B.
Therefore, Y is a Z.

It may or may not be the case that "all Zs are Bs," but in either case it is irrelevant to the conclusion. What is relevant to the conclusion is whether it is true that "all Bs are Zs," which is ignored in the argument.

Note that if the terms were swapped around in either the conclusion or the first co-premise or if the first premise was rewritten to "All Zs can only be Bs" then it would no longer be a fallacy, although it could still be unsound. This also holds for the following two logical fallacies which are similar in nature to the fallacy of the undistributed middle and also non sequiturs.

An example can be given as follows:
Men are humans.
Mary is a human.
Therefore, Mary is a man.

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.