|
Quote:
|
one of the things i find interesting in this discussion is the obvious path of evolution.
we are, many of us, part of something i think of as a "transitional generation". i'll use myself as an example. my parents were between 20 and 30 years older than i am and were raised in a very cut and dried world: their grandparents and parents grew up working farmland, got married, owned a house, had several children who grew up working farmland, and they were together until death. my parents thought they would have the same life but ended up chosing other work besides farming, traveled extensively, bought a house, raised one child, both of them worked, then dad went to college and just mom worked and they divorced when i was 17. in doing all of this, they deviated from the "norm" created by their parents and grandparents and several generations prior. their generation began an evolutionary transition out of a centuries old cultural paradigm. i'm 46. i'm single and happy living alone. i've had my career and dont work currently. grad school starts in a few weeks. i rent rather than own and have no children. if i'd had children they would be in their 20s now and the wonders they imagined wouldnt have even registered on my grandparents' radar. they (and their future children/grandchildren) are cultural pioneers. my point is that as humankind, science, philosophy and etc evolves, the language of such things will evolve as well. there will come a time when people will define themselves using a vocabulary that we would be wholly familiar with. perhaps, the start of such evolution is discussions like this one. it might be easier to say that human beings are simply "sexual" and to agree that there are a million and one ways to express that truth. maybe that will come close to illuminating what it is we're all trying to explain to one another with such vehement calm. or not. |
Quote:
Or that the language describing lesbians needs to evolve into something that does not describe lesbians? |
Quote:
you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women. if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian? and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse? by your definition, the answer is 'yes' and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either. |
Quote:
the language describing people will evolve as people themselves evolve. i do not quite understand the idea that language that does describe lesbians must evolve into something that does not describe lesbians. describe and define are different things. if someone tells me who i am, and i know they are wrong, i will say so. i dont mean any offense in doing so. i simply dont want to be defined by another person, and i especially dont want to be defined in terms that exclude the truth of who i am. people who insist that i use their words and definitions to define myself are being disrespectful. according to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who has sexual intercourse with women, i am not a lesbian. i have sexual intercourse with butches or transguys. what word does the dictionary demand i use to define myself? dictionaries are references. they are not etched in stone. they change every year. words are added and eliminated because language evolves. everything evolves. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
*shakes head* hippie said: if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either. you said: Are you speaking for "lesbians" here? Where on Earth do you get "I'm speaking for lesbians" from if "I" used the word lesbian to define "myself", "I" wouldn't feel that way either??? I just don't see the connection. She can speak for herself, of course, but I am not seeing how you get that from her response. Maybe it will be clearer in the morning. Good night, all. |
okay, you use the equation, lesbian = female homosexual and female homosexual = lesbian. that part i get. it's what works in your world. it doesn't work in mine for the reasons i already stated:
you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women. The english language definition for lesbian is "female homosexual". yes...i believe i acknowledged that you cited the dictionary. that it was an english dictionary was presumed. i also said that i understood that this was a definition you were comfortable with. i have no issue with you using words in a way that make you comfortable. i do not have to use them the same way. if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian? A lesbian is synonymous with a female homosexual. i see the repetition but i missed you answering the question. if i partner with someone who does not consider themselves "woman" then am i still a lesbian by your definition? or does no one's definition of themselves matter more/appear more relevant than Webster's? and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse? Do you define sexual orientation based on intercourse? by your definition, the answer is 'yes' Wha??? I don't follow. based on your dictionary definition of lesbian...that "lesbian" is defined as a woman who has sex with women....that means that lesbians are solely defined by the act of sexual intercourse. and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either. Are you speaking for "lesbians" here? i am speaking for myself when i use the word "i". when i say "not all lesbians feel that way" i am relating the comments of people i know, people who do identify themselves as lesbians, who do not feel defined by the fact that they have sex with people who identify themselves as women. Lesbian is a synonym for "female homosexual". is there a point to repeating this statement? i apologize if it doesnt sound as though i understand that this is your point of view. i understand that you referred to the dictionary and that the statement is a summary of what you found there. i am perfectly comfortable not agreeing with the dictionary. i am comfortable with the concept of evolving language and with the idea that i do not define myself using the dictionary as my sole reference for reflection. i am comfortable not agreeing also, but if there is something i am supposed to understand in the repetition i will be the first to admit that i do not see it. sorry. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
wow. i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it. good night everyone. |
Quote:
Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves. The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d. Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian? I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent. Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me. Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
i was not speaking for all lesbians nor was i telling anyone how to define themselves. i was participating in a conversation, one that has turned into something ugly. in an exchange of ideas, there is no reason to feel threatened or hostile when people dont agree. there is no mandate for agreement in conversation. there is, however, the possibility for greater understanding of one another. i am glad i understand your point of view. i do not demand that you see mine. it would be nice if we could return to the discussion and leave the animosity out of things. good night |
Quote:
You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct? For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion. I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone. That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian. You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual. As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now. Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry. What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over? :) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out if there is room in that definition of "female homosexual" for a woman who is not a heterosexual but not, in my heart anyway, a "true" lesbian. |
Quote:
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol). Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked). Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women. I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women? |
Quote:
And some read all sorts of "anti" stuff into it that I don't feel at all. And that whole thing of wanting people to ID as lesbian/female homosexual who weren't- that certainly didn't come from me! I appreciate our allies! Just as they are! |
Quote:
Pig is synonymous with swine and also with police officer (forgive me all my police officer friends.) My point is that the word "pig" has more than one definition (and very varied ones at that.) I'm sure we could both list a slew of words with similar multi-tasking uses. I see that this discussion has simply become more hammering of the same nail. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. I am sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am over-tired. I will remove myself from this discussion for now and come back to it perhaps when I am refreshed. At this point, it still feels to me like you are saying that a female homosexual can only be a lesbian. I will vehemently disagree with those limiting parameters. Good night. :) |
Holy CRAP!!
I've had to stop reading this two pages back!
I'm a proud queer butch lesbian! This is fucking hurtful that folks are going nuts about being referred to as a queer/femme/butch lesbian, etc... in such a very negative, hateful - if not digusting way. IF you aren't a queer lesbian butch or femme lesbian... Good. Please don't hate those who are and act like you're being referred to as such - is akin to the fucking scum of the earth. What the hell!? IF you are a queer lesbian, butch or femme - and assume all folks are (not straight and trangendered here - unless someone ID's this way of their own choice) please consider that all folks do NOT refer to themselves this way. And they do not care for it, no matter what the reasons. That needs to be respected too. We argue over this continually. I am sick and tired of it. ___ OTHERWISE, forget that this is a butch/femme site. That the owners are trying to be inclusive - and I feel like I'm being spit on here. And I can see how the ones who KNOW folks here truly are sticking up for each other, despite what THEIR damn ID even is! I am truly disgusted right now. Merry fucking Christmas and to all and to all a good night. I'll be back in a few days to see how WONDERFUL all of our holidays were - after shit like this. If I am able. SINCERELY, WILDCAT *And report my ass away, fine... Not too many folks should be feeling too goddamn proud right now, IM HUMBLE OPINION. We got set up here, I thought that... I said as much - but, now with some of these responses - no, I was not going to keep my mouth shut here! (And PLEASE, try and say now: I did not "try" and get through this. Give me a fucking break!) **And "Victoria" (Is that right?) Good job. Happy holidays. ***Sorry Jack and Medusa. (And to the mods.) |
ETA:
I don't "truly" mean, literally - "merry F'n X-Mas to ALL", I really mean I am burnt the hell out on this same tired old stuff.
Sorry to those of you who do NOT wear these shoes... Please forgive me for that. That is my pain talking. WILDCAT |
Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.
I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from. I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too. p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning. |
Maybe this will make sense if not... i gave it a go.
Gemme was saying (paraphrasing) that all homosexuals aren't lesbians, which is true even in the broadest sense since men can be homosexuals and not lesbians. Cyclopea is saying all female homosexuals are lesbians.. But how about if Gemme (or anyone, not trying to put words in her mouth) defines herself as Femme rather than "female". Can we then say: Femme homosexuals are not all lesbians. (may or may not be). Would that make sense? |
Quote:
I think what is being said is : If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian. What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you'). |
Quote:
If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted. IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype. I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps... |
Quote:
I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity. To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally. If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual. Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were. Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed. It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god. Cheers Aj |
It is tiring and sad to over and over again hearing how "Lesbian" is a bad word and that "Lesbian" sex is disgusting.
I am a Lesbian, I have a Lesbian G/F. I am Femme, She is Butch. I also wonder why that is so terrible, and why we can't ID as we do without it constantly being brought into question. Love all of you, but please try to be respectful of people who actually are Lesbians and proud of it! :overreaction: Thread after thread, year after year. :overreaction: |
Quote:
Quote:
This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. :) I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences. Yes, hit. As in punch. So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged. When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that. I will try to read with an open mind and heart. Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason. My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman. So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex. Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.
I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person. It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian. Does that make sense? |
Quote:
Quote:
Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get. How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does? That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting. Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you. I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime. How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky? I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation. To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered. |
You being told you weren't a (so-called) 'good' lesbian - doesn't make you any less of a lesbian (yes, I know that you do not ID as such, but let's use this as a for instance), it seems to me that there were obvious incompatibilities, and the person who said this to you should have exercised tact and sensitivity instead of being hurtful and callous. Mean people do suck.
Arwen, I'm sorry that you went through that. And I am sure you know that on some level, what happened to you does not, by any means, constitute "lesbian sex" - but rather, you being taken advantage of by a very warped and fucked up individual, who most likely happened to be a lesbian. On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation. |
On second thought, I am going to unsubscribe from this thread.
This is not about what a lesbian is or isn't for me. It is for others. Because this is such an emotionally charged issue for me and because I am actually sitting here in tears feeling like I need to throw up, obviously I am not going to be able to unwrap my tangled up issues over this word. My feelings about the word are hurting some of you and making you feel as if I think how you love is a bad thing. I am truly very sorry for that. I never meant for that to be. In trying to explain my own feelings, I've offended some folks I count as friends. Please know that I am not angry. This is not about anger at all. I do appreciate those of you who have rationally discussed this. I do understand where you are coming from. I just wish you could see that my personal choice does not demean yours any more than your personal choice demeans mine. Right now, I feel as if some of you think I hate lesbians and that is simply not true. But it hurts very deeply so I am withdrawing myself at this time from this particular thread. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33 PM. |
ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018