* Bingo * I believe respect, or lack of it, is mostly at the bottom these signals of "silencing". I have had things said to me in threads at that "other" site which I found very disheartening, rude, and silencing. Because someone says something that someone else doesn't think is relevant doesn't mean that it's not of value to others.

In reality everyone who has something to say has a right to say whatever it is. It seems that saying it, hearing it, responding to it with "mutual respect" seems to be the culprit for the most part. For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is such a difficult thing to grasp and do.

Going back to enjoying my Christmas day now ;)

Bulldog,

You got me. I am one of those who has identified as masculine butch. In my mind what I was trying to get across is that - gender-wise - I don't identify as male or female, man or woman. I used masculine thinking it was a useful alternative to male or female, but as you point out, it really isn't. Female id'd butches identify as masculine, male id'd butches identify as masculine - I think it is probably safe to say that most, if not all butches identify with masculinity. So to call myself a masculine identified butch is basically redundant.

I guess I was trying to create a category so that I wouldn't have to identify myself by saying what I'm not (not man or woman) because as we know that can come across as stigmatizing those identities. I'm female in the biological sense, but I don't feel like I fit into either gender category. I guess this is one instance when, if I need to qualify myself in terms of gendered male and female, I'll have to go with the 'not' identifiers. So from now on, I will never call myself a masculine butch; masculine gives you no additional information beyond butch.

You rock Bulldog!

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian. :D

Hey Bulldog,

I really appreciate this dialogue.

Originally I identified only as butch - for me that was my gender that existed outside of male and female. As I saw other butches identifying as male or female, I figured I should use a qualifier too - since neither male or female fit comfortably. But you know what - I am butch, plain and simple. I get that for some butches either male or female resonates - but for me I'm just a good old butch.

You also make a really good point about women in general being masculine, regardless of sexual orientation. My mom, who as far as I know is straight, looks pretty masculine. She doesn't attempt to embrace femininity or masculinity, she is just herself, which happens to be an individual with a nice blend of masculine and feminine. I bet if you asked her if she identified as masculine or feminine, she'd say neither. She expresses what I would call her innate masculinity without any conscious effort. If I had to identify her I'd say masculine straight female, (although, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'straight' part isn't accurate).

Finally, I'm glad that you mention that female-identified butch is a little redundant too. At least as I understand the terms. Because I use male and female to signify physical sex, for me it feels unnecessary to point out that I am physically female. Now, I've never mentioned this before because I didn't want to come across as invalidating those who do embrace female-identified butch, but for me, butch is sufficient.

I asked my Teenage Daughter
 

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me ;).

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest. (f)

thank you for this
 

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.

Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.

I am a wreck after the holidays too and soooo glad its almost over!

I really was not jumping off your fabulous post! Just saying what I had percolating (sp?) for days. :)

I agree completely love is love and I am so glad there is so much of it here! love, love loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I hope you get caught up on your rest and over the holidays quickly!

:)

Jen

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
.

A question for your question....
 

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

Gender ID's and Sexual Id's affecting the terms Butch and Femme
 

I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me.

SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has...

A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do...


Wondering...
If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality....

If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally?

Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is".

And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway...

I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added.

** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community...

Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though....

Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with.

Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality.

:LGBTQFlag:

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.:confused:
:deepthoughts:
Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Feminizing Touch
 

Feminizing Touch
Does that mean "in a way that reminds you that you are female born"? I mean does that describe the way your "bits" are stimulated? To use Selenay's term for them I once saw and stole from her recently cause its cute.

I do see a difference in technique... and have made love differently to a man than to a woman. See what I mean by terms that would be less confusing? If you mean "in a way that would make ANYONE feel like the female parts are being stimulated and not like a males parts are being stimulated" THAT would be too stereotyping for me....

Someone once said when I make love to a male IDed person I may touch their parts... but I dont touch them in the same way as I would or have touched females. I thought that was easy to understand without graphic details.

*** For graphic details see my next post under my erotica lol

Agreed

and as far as feminizing touch goes, for me personally, touching my chest is feminizing. To me it is bad enough that I have them but it irks me to think of my partner touching me there.

what they said
 

Notanaverageguy:

Just wanted to ask since you are here and answering... would a set of nails digging into your chest area during a passionate moment be the same to you as a partner touching them...?

yes, I don't like hands near that area at all, I prefer nails on the back

Thank you
 

NAAG: Thank you for explaining that. I know we are derailing the topic a bit. Some who ID the same as you do may feel differently to an extent.... but its still the same idea that I think a lot of people may sometimes get offended about. Like saying feminizing you is bad for you specifically because you are "better than" femme.... and not just as an issue of sexual likes related to how you are being you... and how you ID with your sexuality as well.

AND I wanted to add that like you NotAAG.... not many of the Bio born males I have been with got anything sexual out of my playing with their pepperonies. AND That does NOT mean they think females or femmes are not as cool as they are. Just didnt "do it" for them. I never thought they were masochistic or anti woman if they didnt really get off on a gal licking their taint either. I just went and found someone who liked what I like... and didnt get upset at them for being strait-forward. Like I hope no one gets with you...

AND I just had to say...I really tried not to....

THAT a few of them did like it. Some of them were not male IDed bio born males who had the typically male stereotyped sexual needs. They were kinky Heterosexual Id'ed bio born males... and they loved that I saw past what "bits" they were born with and let their kinkiness be OK.

:threadjack:

No problem, like Gemme said it should be part of the discussion so we can all learn, I know not everyone feels the same way as I do, hence me using the words to me and for myself, etc in posts.


Thank you for being honest and forthright with your posts, it opens my eyes up on other aspects.

clarify
 

I used the words kinky and heterosexual because that is how they ID themselves not a reflection on my own personal opinions of their said choices.

And I just love that talking goes on in threads that may have been negative at some point.

I love to see poeple make up. Its almost but not quite worth the pain of seeing the fight.


** If there was an actual fight by definition I didnt really think so just a term used broadly to say I love this thread.

ok enough. I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post 'this is what is I termed as 'female on female' sex which is what I have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has diferent meanings for different people. I have seen by response that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

Thanks to Gemme for the segway... I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post this is what 'I' termed as 'female on female' sex which is what 'I' have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has different meanings for different people. I have deduced by responses that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

OK enough.
 

Aww Friskyfemme sorry to hear you feel like that... ok enough. Even the worst said thought is still helping everyone else. Lots read that dont post.

I missed what parts you thought were offensive lately... unless you meant earlier in the thread and or from the time area where you were quoting? Could you clarify when you were offended ... that is if you were newly offended or didnt post specifically what was offensive.... will you please post that for me?

It is very important to me to keep my head around what is offensive and why and to whom. I want to learn, grow and not make ANYone feel unwelcome here.... so you could help me do that in hypothetical future by giving me a heads up on it. If it is not anything newly posted or something you already said was offensive somewhere... Sorry nevermind I am re reading this thread to note all expressed offended feelings for future reference anyway....

Thank you for being so patient and welcoming to everyone's posts.

D.

Part 1

(warning: below are some outrageous examples used in attempt to discuss what it is to sexually 'feminize'. cringe-worthy, read with caution)

i asked my ever-insightful partner if he feels as though there are touches that are *feminizing* and if so what they might be. he couldn't really come up with one, so i offered, 'what if i said i was going to 'finger bang' you?' which got an eyeroll and a, 'you know i don't like that' so i asked, 'why? is it feminizing?' and he said, 'no, i'm just not into it' so, i continued, 'what if i went over and did a 'motorboat' on your chest-area?' and he laughed, 'i'd laugh' i persisted, 'would you get mad? would you think it was feminizing?' he explained, 'if you did that i know you'd be joking' (i wouldn't do that, btw) again i asked, 'is it feminizing?' and he's patient so he said, 'no, not feminizing, we just have been together long enough for me to know what you like and for you to know what i like...' so, of course i persisted, 'what if i said i wanted to suck your hot wet pussy?' again, he didn't find *any* of my examples as much 'feminizing' as absurd. i think i'm concluding that i can't 'feminize' what isn't feminine and attempting to wouldn't be what either of us is about. (additionally, i did try to discover WHY it is that he doesn't like a certain, 'sensation' (ones that i do) but was without success beyond, 'i just don't')

Part 2

also, i don't believe in stone femme (unless you define stone femme as someone with boundaries regarding touch, of their personal person.) otherwise 'stone femme' just means that someone isn't attracted to who their sleeping with--which is cool, i don't judge--but lets get on the same page, already.

Part 3

i'm reading, 'nickel and dimed' and i'm pretty sure it has me interested in conducting covert social research.

OK I just gotta ask- what is "motorboating"?
Concerned I may be missing out on something here! Help a butch sista out!
:sailing:

Uh... place face between partners breasts, move face from side to side while either yelling or making "motorboat" sounds.. :cheesy: