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"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?
There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc. Thoughts? |
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I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms. I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows. eta: i prefer to be thought of as "Adele". There may be several thousand other Adeles on the earth but no two of us are the same. Kind of like Butch/Femme. There are so very many of us. No two are the same. |
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I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.
Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off. As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others." It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme. So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)? It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all. *looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox* |
I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!
In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family. If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! ;) At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am. |
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Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first! |
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Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said! |
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And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing. I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO. |
I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?
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Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!:eek: I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life. |
Oh, Lordy, here comes the stampede...
Yes, they are dying terms.
Sorry, y'all. -The 20 Year Old * N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene. |
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I think that it IS important to make room under our "Umbrella" for POC identities.
Which just goes back to the fact of how very important it is to respect ALL identities. I think it bothers me to see inclusion being couched in exclusion. One thing doesn't need to be pushed out to make room. We can all open our arms wide to do that. When I was growing up I was mentored by older Butches/Femmes. Now it is my term to mentor. If we shelve Butch/Femme as antiquated where does that leave us? |
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OMG this just made me giggle....... It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers......... ......but not until then, little whippersnapper! ;) <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone! |
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Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be. Thankfully, that's not true. For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art. Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death. New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all. If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience. I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant. Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it. |
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I think the real issue here is can we all learn to accept one another as we wish to be accepted? If I tell you I am a femme, you do not have the right to tell me that is not a "good" word. It seems so aggressively judgmental to me. I won't tell a self-identified stud that hy's just a butch of color. How dismissive of me to not honor what hy wants to call hymself. So for the record (and in my 3oth year of being gay with a few years out for heterosexuality in my 30's..lol), I'm a queer femme. You can be whatever you want to be but never dare to define me for me. You do not have that right. |
I think we should listen to what Sel has to say with an open mind. Let's respect HER identity and maybe learn something?
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Interseting read... Kinda got a lil scerred there for a moment though... But I got over it... with a quickness.
I've gone back east and into the hill where the terms / labels: butch and Femme, aren't commonly used. This shocked me and I was (only for a second) displaced. As you can tell I get over things easily though and found their rythem and flow of words and meanings... and guess what I learned in my ol age... They had the same (but different in their own way) fundamentals as that which I know and understand. |
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You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead. There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now? I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea. Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there. |
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I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final. And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it. Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead. Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....:canoworms: ;) |
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Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me :2butch: but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different. |
Ooops, Selly, I'm sorry, didn't know you were still posting... *reads*
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I see. *smiles* That's what happened the first time when the Feminist Wave hit Lesbiana, yanno? People went to androgynous. It didn't last, because it didn't fit us all. The terms Butch and Femme will be here when the next generation needs them, I think. |
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Dead is very final, but I think that is is accurate. Yes, the harpsichord became the piano and the spinet and the (oh lord it's been a long time since I thought about this. . .) ottavano, right?. . . but the harpsichord isn't in use with the mass culture. Of course, it's not dead in the music world, it never will be (I hope) but if it's out of the hands of the many, that is, to me, dead. It evolves, it changes, it becomes something completely different. . . But when you unwrap it, you can still see the roots there, plain as day. Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation. Music always was one of my favorite subjects. . . |
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Dead, dying, on life support or not, I like the terms butch and femme. They feel good in my mouth. They feel right. For me. For someone else, even if they look and act very much like I do, maybe not so much. As Arwen and some others touched on, you can only define yourself and the terms for yourself. Let others define themselves and the terms appropriate for them.
Gemme-Prefers 'on vacation' to dead, dying or life support |
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Perhaps it's true 80% of the people at an "extremely queer" school that offers G/L studies as a major don't know what the butch/femme dynamic is. I would expect that to probably be true just about anywhere. What would be pathetic, however, is if those numbers were reflected in said G/L program. You can't study a thing without knowing its history. It seems unlikely to me that things have changed so much in the past year since I moved from New York. When I spoke to a group of high school students in Manhattan about gender identity, though they were every single one of them POC, at least half knew the terms butch and femme, and of course, now all of them know it, thanks to me. (*pat pat*) Once again, I disbelieve that "if the youth doesn't embrace a term it will die." That statement is myopic, at best. Why do so many terms and fashions become reborn? Why do ancient religions, art and musical forms survive? In part because the young don't exist in a void, We're still here, telling our stories, writing them down, passing them on. Our youth are fundamental to change and growth, but they also grab hold of a thing, sometimes a piece of the past, an out dated fashion, and make it new again. I welcome whatever new language comes into use, but I don't think it will be at the exclusion of "old" terms for identity. No, we're not going to start speaking Latin, but consider how many of our languages would be different, or non-existent if not for Latin. These terms come about because they signify who we are - that's not going to change. Historically, lot of young queers follow the androgynous route as they "find" themselves (just because they ID as "genderqueer" today, doesn't mean they always will). Other terms may come about to speak to evolved identities, but that doesn't herald the erasure of butch and femme. |
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The current incarnation would be butch and femme. I think that these identities will evolve, and help to shape something else (perhaps andro, perhaps genderqueer, perhaps new wave femme.) I don't think that they will be wiped off the face of the queer planet, but will change and evolve and become something completely different than they are now: a new incarnation. Hope that helped. |
Butch/femme antiquated?? Maybe to some, but I prefer the term "classic".
Any reading of queer/lesbian history will show that the butch/femme dynamic has been around long before those specifc words were attached to it. The "cultural" feminists in the 70's declared it "dead" and yet B/F dynamics had a resurgance in the 80's and 90's. Connecting with that energy and history was like a second coming out for me. First I came out as a lesbian, then a few years later as femme. Call it whatever you wish but for me, personally, to have my ID declared "dead" is rather dismissive of all those who went before us and seems ignorant of the past that brought us here to this point in time. Quote:
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History repeating.
Listen to Shirley and learn...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTUIHK7gHRE"]YouTube- Propellerheads - History Repeating (1997) â–ºSTEREOâ—„[/ame] Be who you are, regardless of fashion's edict or academia's clarion cry. |
Like the avacado appliances from the 70's that are coming back again, so will the terms butch and femme some day after they have been unused for a while.
I know my "label" changes somewhat depending on who I am in the company of. When in Dallas with my buddies down there, they consider me a Stud. When around my andro friends here in KC, I am a lesbian....of which I prefer Queer, and when I am around the likes of all you hooligans ;), I am Butch. My very favorite way to identify. It is what I am, it is who I am, and it is what my tattoo says. :winky: I really think that the terms Butch and Femme will never be dead. Like Diva said, I will take those terms to my grave too, and I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon! :) p.s. Jack, love your tool analogy.... |
So when do I get to declare all just a fad? or better it...
it's just a phase |
I'm in my 49th year of "cognizant" queer-dom..lol....I knew at four I was different and felt like a boy at five. Believe it or not, my nickname as a child was "Butch" given to me by mom of all people. I'll never change that or the fact that I'm attracted to femmes and all the beauty which that implies for me.
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This is a wonderful thread and it's been quite interesting reading everyones take on this subject.
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I have been out for 25 years.
Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular. Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes. Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous! Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian. Ehhhhh. I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly. I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé? |
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too funny...too cute I swear of this continues I'm going to be a gay man when I transition with crush on Robert Downy Jr. |
Please don't try to label me!
I agree with Mr. ent and Diva. The terms butch, femme are identifiable as are
bi, tg, lesbian, straight, gay, queer, hetrosexual, homosexual, and many others. It istrue that someone at sometime coined each of these terms to explain how one viewed, idenitfied, and/or best described oneself and/or someone else. Just because someone doesn't id with the term doesn't mean that it isn't valid or is outdated. This discussion isn't a new one. As us older ones know. However, the bottom line is this RESPECT of others. If there is now an identity that better defines ME, I will be the One who coins it. I am then, now and always a 'Stonefemme'. |
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