[Linus]

I wanted to keep all the posts in but ran into character limits for this reply.

Originally Posted by Bob

Possibly (un)related: "Why James Chartrand Wears Women's Underpants" - http://www.copyblogger.com/james-chartrand-underpants/

It touches on some of the issues Linus raises, although in a different (non-trans) context.

That was really interesting. I think the most telling was this:

Why should it matter to me that you’re a woman? But it does – I’m amazed at my hidden sexism. Not in a ‘I’m never going to read her writing again’ – more that it changes the way I read it.
And not in a bad way, but it *shouldn’t* make *any* difference.

The fact that he is now going to read her differently now that she was forced to out her story surprises me. The fact that he recognized his own "hidden sexism" was good but that he's letting that decide how he perceives her is unfortunate. I think her story showed how even Online, often viewed as a gender neutral area, isn't that at all. And that even there more credence is given to men/masculine appearing individuals than to women (see technology discussions for further proof of this -- in another life, I faced this openly on one dramatic occasion but may have also faced it unknowingly since then). I recently taught a new course (last week) and was unsure of my ability to get the point across to the students. I suspect if I was still female-identified it would have been mentioned but since I come across as male (obviously white given the french name) I got huge kudos for a great class.

It's interesting that Online Interactions carry the misogyny, sexism, etc. just as much as it does in person. It's interesting that when I went to look at the B-F definition in Wikipedia for femme, it was defined by the perceived "masculine" attribute in relation to butch. (that is, it defined a butch and said that a femme was the opposite but didn't identify femme independent of butch). Why? Why do we insist on defining women in reference to men? Why can we not define them separate? IT is particularly conservative for this, unfortunately. We hear of the guys -- Gates, Torvalds, Wozniak, Jobs -- and maybe hear about Ada. But what of the other women who make up IT? Why aren't their histories more apparent? Like the founder of my company -- Diane Greene -- who is amazing creatively and person-wise. It gets back, I suspect, (as Theo mentions low) into the competition-aspect of things. If women are competitive, they are viewed as "bitches" rather than meeting men at the same level of competition.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Linus,

<snipped for brevity>

In the Jewish faith, men hold the main tradition as being head of the household. It is expected that they work, bring home the money to support their family, and carry on all business of life & living. Women are really 2nd class citizens (Hysidic - spelling?). Now, you have known me, and Rosie and see our struggles. I don't work. I have to rely and depend on others for survival. Without that help, I don't survive. That is how it is.

That same treatment of husband being breadwinner and wife look after the house and being 2nd class citizens also happens in Christian households. I don't think it's religious specific as much as it's a learned behavior from previous experiences (e.g., if both partners experienced a house that matched the Cleavers, then they'll want to continue it).

As for flying...that is another story. I hate to fly. I am always, forever, and a day the one that is pulled aside, and practically have to undress for everyone and be wanded down. I still don't get it. Rosie takes on the role of taking on all the carry-on's, and handling the luggage, but I still get pulled over. Go figure.

I think if there was a more easier way to have your gender and name change be done, then we should be able to do it. I just think it is wrong on so many levels that every state is different in how this is processed. I really am liking the idea of a one card for everyone, including passport. That makes sense to me.

Straight white men have always been given the leaway in society. It makes me think that everyone else is discriminated against.

Great thread!

Love,
Andrew

The part I bolded is exactly what white male privilege is. It is what I (and apparently a few others here) do not want but will be given whether we want it or not. I personally want to go kicking and screaming into this process and continue working at breaking it down. I suspect it's used against you since, for some, you do not fit the perfect, neat image of WMP (White Male Privilege)

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I don't know white male privilege.....yet. I haven't started T yet, but will be in the next few weeks. I am still treated like a second class citizen. Yes, I know a lot of things about being a woman. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of male violence against women. I know what it is like to be seen purely as a sexual object by men. I know what it is like to be dismissed when expressing my ideas. I know what it is like to have a period too lol. I know what it is like for a woman to be raped by a man. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of misogyny. I know all of these things and more, first hand.

I see misogyny directed at women and I cringe. I grew up seeing my mom be treated like shit by her boss for years. She has been sexually harassed on the job, treated like a dog, and come home from work crying on many occasions. She felt that she needed the job and couldn't quit, and felt trapped. It made me sick.

I am keenly aware of misogyny, and I hate it. I try so hard not to be a perpetrator, to show respect and kindness to all women. I know that a lot of femmes on this site feel the sting of misogyny from certain butches and transguys, and that blows me away. I don't understand how someone who grew up as a girl could forget what that is like and treat a woman so cruelly. It disgusts me, really it does.

If I may interject here -- and I will preface this that this doesn't necessarily make it so for all trans men -- , for some transmen, they hate their past and once it's gone, they ignore it. They do not want to remember it nor be reminded of it. We have to remember that each person (trans, cis, straight, queer, <insert identifying label here>, etc.) all have different experiences and see things differently. Some are so misogynist, and this is entirely my opinion of it, that they hated the women/female parts of themselves. They were, in effect (and against, IMO), misogynist to themselves for the longest time and remain so. So, to answer your question, it's probably easy for them because of that self-hatred of who they were.

As for male privilege, I anticipate it happening to me, and I already feel guilt about it, though I have not experienced it yet. Is that crazy or what? I fear the privilege. I don't want it. I fear it will change me and make me an asshole, make me expect and take advantage of it. I don't want that. I also fear that once I have it, that others in the community will see me as the enemy; that girls in particular will assume I am a misogynist pig and mistrust me. Being a male ID'd transguy, I already feel that mistrust here on this site. It saddens me greatly. I am not one of those misogynist boneheads, but I feel the burden they create nonetheless. I do not blame femmes for this, don't get me wrong. I blame the misogynist boneheads who treat femmes like second class citizens, who see them as less than, who treat them as an accessory and not as an equal, who don't really see and respect them for all the wonderful things that they are.

I don't know. *sigh* This whole privilege thing has me sad and feeling like my impending integration with my mind and body, my transition, isn't something to celebrate and feel good about. I feel glum to be honest. I don't want the privilege. I know I will do my best to be out about my trans status as much as I can after transition. I really don't know what else to say at this point.

It's not crazy. I actually went through the same thing and had discussions with K about this. Sometimes WMP will be assigned and you'll be given it whether you realize it or not. Everything I do, every reaction someone has when I teach, when I talk with people, I ask: did they react to me in that way because of WMP or because of me the person? Are they that way with all people, male, female, whatever? I think being hyper-aware and vigilant helps a lot. Questioning certainly does. There are no easy answers to this. All you can do is be a "man of integrity" and stand up when you see misogyny or other forms of WMP in action.

Originally Posted by little man

glad you started this thread, linus.

yessir, i've got the privilege. i haven't developed the sense of entitlement yet, though. at least i don't think i have.

i'm about 6.5 yrs into transition. has my life changed? boy howdy. on the one hand, i do feel badly about having all this crap just handed to me. on the other hand, it sure is a nice break from the "good ol' days". i try to temper the perks by making room for my female counterparts to be heard, to be seen, to be recognized. i call bullshit when i see it and i talk, talk, talk about things people say about women, ways they treat women, etc. i don't know that i've changed any minds, but i'm pretty sure i've planted a seed or two (i do these things around race, too).

i really don't know how to go about dismantling the privilege. i do try to be vigilant about not taking up more than my fair share of space and making sure the powers that be hear about the capabilities of my female counterparts.

mostly, i try to be a good man. i try to set the bar a little higher for what a man can and should be. a female coworker told me not long ago that she enjoys talking to me because i understand a lot of things and am willing to discuss emotional stuff. and everything is not about my dick or getting laid. i took that to mean i'm doing something right. i'm definitely doing something outside the normal experiences of her waking world.

i don't think there is a way to give back the privilege we gain. i do think there are ways to share it and have the platform to advance others. perhaps the answer lies in using it for the betterment of all, rather than getting myself or the other ol' boys further along.

Hrmm.. I think I disagree with the idea that privilege cannot be returned. I think that if we remove it from ourselves and open the place up for someone else to have it, it helps. (and that someone else has to be someone who is normally robbed of a chance because they do not have WMP). It does mean giving up something -- and it may be a painful something but maybe it is time to start.

Originally Posted by theoddz

Interesting that this topic should come up, because I was just discussing this with my coworker yesterday. I had been kind of "thinking aloud" in the office between rounds while we were sitting on our collective arses (ya, we do that..sometimes a LOT).

I'm still not totally used to, nor comfortable with receiving the benefits of male privilege in my world. I guess I spent too many years in a female skin, looking from the outside in, into an body and a world that I felt I should had and should have been part of, from the time I drew my first breaths. I've never forgotten, nor do I ever want to, the feeling that I had to justify my opinions, my actions, my professionalism, whathaveyou...because of the body I was born in to. Looking at it now, I can see the behaviors that cause feelings of being "second class" and it causes a sinking, sickening feeling in my gut. If I don't like that feeling, and I certainly don't....why would anyone else??

I think this highlights the difference between those who were born into WMP from the start and know nothing different from those who embrace that part of their past (particularly those transmen who do that -- again, IMO) and reject WMP as the modus operandi.

<snip for brevity>

I need to combine listening to my sisters' voices with the charge of my own manhood. Share limelight, instead of just taking it. Does that make sense??

I think there is a gracious way of handling privilege. You share it by shifting it over to others, and that's what I do in my job and whenever/wherever I can. I have found that, especially when I'm around other (cis) men, this is something that's not easy to do, because most guys seem to always be clamoring for their own masculinity amongst other males, and this is even more true for us men who have had to transition and find our own place amongst our (cis) brothers. But, when a question is aimed at me, whether or not I recognize it or not as being due to my maleness, I defer to my female colleagues (in the work environment, for example) and get them to offer their input. I try to make it a point to actively insert them and take the focus of "unique male credibility" off of myself. When there have been other (cis) males around, I seem to always get those looks that seem to convey both disbelief and a bit of anger/betrayal that a fellow male would defer to the females. So there's peer pressure to exclude, too. I think that tearing down privilege is a lot about sharing empowerment. It's about public rejection, in a lot of ways, I think. If you refuse to take it for your own....if you have the guts to turn it down...then you can dismantle it, chunk by chunk. I just think that that is sometimes hard for the average person to do because, by nature, many of us are so self-focused. As transmen/FtMs, we're just not used to having it, and when it is finally granted to us and we're accepted into "The Boys' Club", it's like having walked through a desert and finally being offered a drink of water. We're there. We've arrived. We're finally accepted.....and we'll do anything it takes to keep it that way, even if it's wrong and keeping it means that we have to keep up status quo at the expense of those who are still being denied.

Thanks for this thread. I think this needs to be discussed.

Respectfully,
~Theo~

I do agree that it needs to be dismantled, chunk by chunk. But I do also suspect that for some transmen it is the oasis in a desert of misunderstanding of their life. And when they feel like they have found a place to belong, they want to stay there and fight. You are correct at that. There are times when I feel like that (e.g., cigar events -- very male privileged but not as white as historically it has been).


I do want to thank everyone who is participating as both posters and readers. I think a lot more discussion has to be done for both the in person and online venues to help dismantle this in the long run, long term. I know that I will be long gone well before it's resolved.. But I don't want to wait until then before trying to start this in life.