[Bit]

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*

Originally Posted by evolveme

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying?

No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).

I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.