Trans Men and Butches Raising Femme Daughters.

[tuffboi29]

I am starting this thread for one reason...

I don't have a feminine bone in my body and I am raising a very femme little girl.


I find myself lost many times on many subjects. Such as hair..nails..clothes..and how to teach her about her femme self. For example.."shoes do not make the woman". I am at a total loss as to how to teach her to spread her wings and still maintain a respect level for herself in those regards.

So with this thread I am hoping to not only get some advice for myself but for other male identified members of The Planet who are facing the same issues as I.


Any advice, thoughts, hints, tips and ideas are welcome.




P.S.
TY Lady Snow

[Soft*Silver]

thank you for starting this thread. I know you have to have others in the same position..if not know, later, who will look for a thread like this. I know when I was younger, I was petrified of the possibility of bearing a boy child. I knew I would be a natural at raising a girl child, even if she were to be a tom boy. I had no clue how to raise a boy. And I had no men around to help me with it.

One thing I would suggest is to get your hands on some teen magazines and read up on alot of the issues she is going to encounter. Read ahead of her age, so you can be prepared. They will also give you fashion, make up, etc.

oh wait..how little is little?

[The_Lady_Snow]

This particular thread is emotional for me so please be patient, it's how we imprint our future women that I think will change the world.

My femme is gender, so with that said your daughter seems to walking towards the feminine *label*. With that said, she's a girl, who will grow up to be either queer, lesbian, straight, bisexual or genderqueer. She's going to have and has a herstory, teach it to her.

Teach her to hold her space, and not let anyone take it from her, teach her she is strong, that her value and worth is unending. Teach her to cook, work on a car, spit and serve a cup of tea. Teach it all to her. Teach her gender doesn't limit you, that you can be the girliest of girls even when you're wearing a pair of sweats and sneakers. Teach her she is beautiful exactly how she is, teach her about healthy sex, choice and that no one should exert themselves over her simply because she was is a *girl*

Teach her that her body is beautiful, teach her to not bow down to sexism or any ism that lessens her value.

Listen to her woes, don't run away when she has a moment of tears, hold her and tell her it will be ok and she will get past it, wipe her tears.

Watch Twilight 590 times because it's spending time with her, let her get glitter on you because not one hug should ever be missed, give her a safe haven always and always tell her how awesome she is. Love her with everything even if she screams of both masculinity within her femininity, always remind her girls can do anything they want at any time.

Don't sit like the old guy at the girl beauty shop, sit in a chair but once in awhile pay her a compliment or smile at her because she will be looking to see if you are interested in her life.

Allow her to be her, even at her pinkest or her darkest of colors, be honest with her never shaming her, be her confidant and base of trust.

Good luck with your daughter.

[Jesse]

Lady Snow,

This is one of the most beautiful things I've read in while. Great advice too!

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This particular thread is emotional for me so please be patient, it's how we imprint our future women that I think will change the world.

My femme is gender, so with that said your daughter seems to walking towards the feminine *label*. With that said, she's a girl, who will grow up to be either queer, lesbian, straight, bisexual or genderqueer. She's going to have and has a herstory, teach it to her.

Teach her to hold her space, and not let anyone take it from her, teach her she is strong, that her value and worth is unending. Teach her to cook, work on a car, spit and serve a cup of tea. Teach it all to her. Teach her gender doesn't limit you, that you can be the girliest of girls even when you're wearing a pair of sweats and sneakers. Teach her she is beautiful exactly how she is, teach her about healthy sex, choice and that no one should exert themselves over her simply because she was is a *girl*

Teach her that her body is beautiful, teach her to not bow down to sexism or any ism that lessens her value.

Listen to her woes, don't run away when she has a moment of tears, hold her and tell her it will be ok and she will get past it, wipe her tears.

Watch Twilight 590 times because it's spending time with her, let her get glitter on you because not one hug should ever be missed, give her a safe haven always and always tell her how awesome she is. Love her with everything even if she screams of both masculinity within her femininity, always remind her girls can do anything they want at any time.

Don't sit like the old guy at the girl beauty shop, sit in a chair but once in awhile pay her a compliment or smile at her because she will be looking to see if you are interested in her life.

Allow her to be her, even at her pinkest or her darkest of colors, be honest with her never shaming her, be her confidant and base of trust.

Good luck with your daughter.

[tuffboi29]

Originally Posted by softness

thank you for starting this thread. I know you have to have others in the same position..if not know, later, who will look for a thread like this. I know when I was younger, I was petrified of the possibility of bearing a boy child. I knew I would be a natural at raising a girl child, even if she were to be a tom boy. I had no clue how to raise a boy. And I had no men around to help me with it.

One thing I would suggest is to get your hands on some teen magazines and read up on alot of the issues she is going to encounter. Read ahead of her age, so you can be prepared. They will also give you fashion, make up, etc.

oh wait..how little is little?

Thanks Softness!!
My wee lil one will be 8 on May 22.
I have a friend that I call my "mom away from mom" that does her best to keep me up to date on fashions. I even took a parenting class to help adjust my discipline tactics as she further develops twords her teens. The only thing they couldn't seem to offer was what kinds of issues she will run into and how I can help her deal with them.
MJ and I have a very close bond and our communication levels are absolutely awesome, so I have that covered. I encourage her and tell her she can accomplish anything she sets her heart on. I try to remind her everyday that even one good deed does the whole world good and that respect for everyone and everything are the most important things of all. And it really shows in her attitude and behaviors.

But to teach her how to be a womyn?

I wish to teach her to be a proud, independent, and respectable WOMYN.

I never understood how to be a womyn. I was never a "lady", although I attempt to teach her lady like qualities that I've observed from womyn (who happen to be femme).

I guess that would be my question. How would I accomplish that when I never truly understood it in the first place?

[Soft*Silver]

Tuffboi...dear dear tuffboi...everything you posted roared with everything she needs to grow up to be a fine womyn. She can read a magazine or attend pajama parties to learn what nail polish is in. YOU are giving her the magic to make her sparkle as a womyn. You didnt need us to tell you. You are already doing it. We grew up being told we needed prince charming to come by and wake us up with a kiss and give us his kingdom to give us magic. We needed to be told, instead, that the magic was always ours, was always within us, and we didnt need anyone to wake it up in us. Thats what you are doing for her. Honey...you ARE doing it right....

smiling....honey...oh boy are you a good parent...

[tuffboi29]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This particular thread is emotional for me so please be patient, it's how we imprint our future women that I think will change the world.

My femme is gender, so with that said your daughter seems to walking towards the feminine *label*. With that said, she's a girl, who will grow up to be either queer, lesbian, straight, bisexual or genderqueer. She's going to have and has a herstory, teach it to her.

Teach her to hold her space, and not let anyone take it from her, teach her she is strong, that her value and worth is unending. Teach her to cook, work on a car, spit and serve a cup of tea. Teach it all to her. Teach her gender doesn't limit you, that you can be the girliest of girls even when you're wearing a pair of sweats and sneakers. Teach her she is beautiful exactly how she is, teach her about healthy sex, choice and that no one should exert themselves over her simply because she was is a *girl*

Teach her that her body is beautiful, teach her to not bow down to sexism or any ism that lessens her value.

Listen to her woes, don't run away when she has a moment of tears, hold her and tell her it will be ok and she will get past it, wipe her tears.

Watch Twilight 590 times because it's spending time with her, let her get glitter on you because not one hug should ever be missed, give her a safe haven always and always tell her how awesome she is. Love her with everything even if she screams of both masculinity within her femininity, always remind her girls can do anything they want at any time.

Don't sit like the old guy at the girl beauty shop, sit in a chair but once in awhile pay her a compliment or smile at her because she will be looking to see if you are interested in her life.

Allow her to be her, even at her pinkest or her darkest of colors, be honest with her never shaming her, be her confidant and base of trust.

Good luck with your daughter.

Wow Lady Snow. I don't think thank you covers it.

My daughter is my life and my world. I remember back to my childhood and all I can do is look at her and scream within myself that what I went through SHE NEVER WILL...not as long as I'm breathing.

When we talk I put myself down to her height and speak to her as an equal.
When she needs my attention I cut off everything to give it to her solely. I allow her to help with almost every household chore from cleaning to cooking because of the pride she gets from a job well done. When she makes a mistake as all human beings do there isn't punishment....there's "lets try this again, I know you can get it if you practice".
I have the utmost respect for her and even when I don't understand what she is trying to get across to me I will sit there until we get it sorted out. (her communicative abilities are behind due to a medical situation)

To cut this short, the reason I had the thought to post this is because of her and my desire to help her grow into the healthy happy who-ever she wishes to be. She seems to be headed down a very soft feminine path. I wish to help her along it by finding out as much as I can to help her along her journey.

And Lady Snow...

If you don't mind I would love to print what you've said and hang it on my fridge as inspiration. That was beautiful.

[tuffboi29]

Originally Posted by softness

Tuffboi...dear dear tuffboi...everything you posted roared with everything she needs to grow up to be a fine womyn. She can read a magazine or attend pajama parties to learn what nail polish is in. YOU are giving her the magic to make her sparkle as a womyn. You didnt need us to tell you. You are already doing it. We grew up being told we needed prince charming to come by and wake us up with a kiss and give us his kingdom to give us magic. We needed to be told, instead, that the magic was always ours, was always within us, and we didnt need anyone to wake it up in us. Thats what you are doing for her. Honey...you ARE doing it right....

smiling....honey...oh boy are you a good parent...

You almost made me cry.
In my little part of the planet that I was raised in...well one just doesn't hear those kinds of things.
I think that may have something to do with this. I want to be everything to her that I never had...that I was denied experiencing.
Thank you so much.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by tuffboi29

But to teach her how to be a womyn?

I wish to teach her to be a proud, independent, and respectable WOMYN.

I never understood how to be a womyn. I was never a "lady", although I attempt to teach her lady like qualities that I've observed from womyn (who happen to be femme).

I guess that would be my question. How would I accomplish that when I never truly understood it in the first place?

Honey, first you have to ask yourself if you are trying to fit her into your concept of what a woman is or isn't.

I really admire you for thinking about this for your daughter. I would say teach her to be a good human being first.

What Snow said had chops. You know? Be there for MJ. Listen to her. Make her know that you will always listen.

Hang in there.

[tuffboi29]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Honey, first you have to ask yourself if you are trying to fit her into your concept of what a woman is or isn't.

I really admire you for thinking about this for your daughter. I would say teach her to be a good human being first.

What Snow said had chops. You know? Be there for MJ. Listen to her. Make her know that you will always listen.

Hang in there.

Thank you Arwen.

I am more looking to help her develop into the womyn *she* sees herself as. The one she wishes to be. Tempered, of course, with not only respect, but self respect and self love.

[Jesse]

tuffboi,

I had my three little nieces for three years, each with so very different personalities and needs. One was a real life little feminine princess, another had seemingly strong butch characteristics, and the third was still a baby.

I say honor who they show you they are at that time and be open to changing and growing with them as they discover who they will be. Give her room to be who she needs to be.

Listen to them, truly listen and when you do not understand ask question and listen some more.

Tell her the truth as is age appropriate of course. Just know, they know if you are not truthful to them.

Give her a strong foundation of self, so that no matter who or what she will always know who she is and that she does indeed matter.

Let her know always how proud you are of her and that you are there for her.

[tuffboi29]

Thank you Jessie and everyone else.

I would really like to keep this thread going.

If there are any questions anyone would like to ask or anyone would like to share their own experiences about raising their little girls..the tough times and the good..the lessons they somehow manage to teach US..I would really love to share in those experiences.
Who knows? Maybe we'll all learn something new..

[Soft*Silver]

Originally Posted by tuffboi29

Thank you Arwen.

I am more looking to help her develop into the womyn *she* sees herself as. The one she wishes to be. Tempered, of course, with not only respect, but self respect and self love.

In raising my daughter I decided to give her a feminist upbringing. no pink toys. She got dolls and trucks. Building toys as well as baby buggies. I did not allow barbies.I thought they delivered the wrong message.
So what did my daughter want? Beg for? Cry for? Ask for at every gift buying occassion? I went to social anthropology professor and asked him what to do. (why him? Because he taught me that values are passed on thru the socialization process which occurs with unconcious integration of the culture's set of beliefs and values from birth to the day of death from everything they encounter through their senses, through their family of origin, their extended family, schools, churches, neighborhoods, peer groups, media, etc.) He explained I didnt need to exclude Barbie from her. I could give her Barbie, but i needed to explain that no woman has a waist that size nor has feet that stays like that, nor are women nippleless nor are men penis-less, and fashion doesnt make a woman, etc. I breathed a sigh of relief and soon my daughter had a barbie and within two years she had a pink room, and in five years she had 50 barbies. Did that make her a weak knot head? Hell no. She is a spit fire and could take on any chauvenist and has battled homophobia on playgrounds, transphobia in her classrooms as a student teacher and classism and racism in her first permanent kinderrgarten class. Barbie didnt do her in. She became her own woman by wanting what she wanted AND by me socializing her well. Its team work....

[Lynn]

It sounds like you are doing everything right. Establishing great communication and mutual respect is the foundation of a a positive parenting relationship.

It's always helpful to have positive role models and to keep up with the latest trends. But, I don't think you can teach her to be a womyn any more than you could be taught to be who you are, and how you express yourself, gender-wise. She has innate qualities that you can honor and nurture, but you won't make her who she is. At the same time, you will shape her values and teach her about what's important in life. That doesn't have to do with her femaleness or femininity, it has to do with who she is and who you are, as persons. Stuff like nails and hair are probably the easy things compared to things like how to treat others and how to be true to yourself.

If you tell her, "Shoes don't make the woman," you are imparting a value that isn't about shoes or women, it's about what's important in life. If you set some boundaries about what she can wear at the age of 8, you are teaching her some things about appropriate behavior. When she's 18, maybe she'll take those teachings into consideration! My daughter was given some outfits at that age that I called her "Peg Bundy" outfits. She could only wear them in the house. I don't think I clipped her wings by setting some limits. At 23, she is a creative, expressive, interesting person who wears what she wants.

Wishing you all the best!

[Galahad]

This is a great parenting, teaching, counseling, etc. book and will help you see some of the issues she's going to have to deal with very soon and hopefully help you see ways to help her through.
"Reviving Ophelia- Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls"

[raising2alone]

Hi all,

This is an awesome topic, I too have a daughter, even though she is only 2, she is decidely feminine. She has a twin brother so it's a balancing act most of the time to nurture them both in whatever direction the day takes them. I must say it has been very enlightening thus far. We all learned in school about nurture versus nature and what pushes our little ones. I have to say it is very much nature to this point. Since I have two seperate genders, I buy toys that they just want, no thought as to if it is a truck or doll. They have equal access to all of them and they have truly gravitated toward what society would consider "gender specific" toys. My daughter loves dolls and my son cars and trains. Being FtM, I have to be careful not to add my own bias when they are playing . We all play with everything, from doll houses to trains, but left alone, they know what they prefer. My daughter is very nurturing and a caretaker and my son is a little self centered...ok, time for the ladies to chime in there...LOL.

Anyway, this will be a great thread to help me as my daughter ages and yes, she will travel many paths as will he and I am blessed already and will love them without judgement and totally unconditionally all of their lives. To me they were spiritual beings long before they came to this earth in their little bodies. I let them explore and ask questions already and they are little sponges.

I want to thank all of the women on here that will become role models if even through cyber space for my daughter as she continues to travel through her journey.....and my son as well. I do firmly believe it takes a village to raise a child so I need many villages . (Also thanking everyone that will post, we can all learn from one another to be sure ).

Peace and blessings all....

[Converse]

Many years ago I developed a relationship with a woman whose toddler, who had been living with her father overseas, came to live with us. She was the most magical child, her speech hadn’t properly developed and she hadn’t learned any English- she had been use to sleeping where and when she liked and ate the same way. A dental check up showed that all of her baby teeth were full of cavities as all she had known was candy and soda.

Her mother abdicated all responsibility, and so although I was happy to support the household so that the little one had a full time parent at home, in truth her raising was left to me. She was introduced to eating utensils and vegetables, a speech therapist, a bed with bedtime stories, the zoo, swimming lessons and surfing and joined the local baseball team – for Christmas she asked Santa for a tool belt like mine, and together we made house repairs and worked on the car. When she needed clothes I took her shopping for comfortable stuff- which in my mind could only be found in the boys sections.

One day her mother said “I’ve just been watching the child playing with her friend- she pulls out her friend’s chair and holds the door open for her. She doesn’t know how to do her hair, and she even walks like you. She has no interest in dresses or nice shoes or in anything remotely feminine- she is older now and you are not the right influence for her, its time for me to be a mother and for you to take a step back.”

I watched the Saturday baseball game be replaced with shopping at the mall, comfortable cargo pants be replaced with spray on jeans, and the sound of a drill replaced with hiphop music and chatter about spas and hair salons- she seemed happy.

The child found a new best friend, whose name was scribbled everywhere, on her school books and bag, I noticed she even had an imitation tattoo of the girls name on her arm. One day I picked them both up from the mall, the friend held open the car door for the child, then walked around the other side to let herself in-the friend looked at me and said “one day I’m going to get my hair cut short like yours and get a leather jacket like yours too and a truck like this one”, the child smiled at me in the rear view mirror.

Shortly afterwards the mother said she didn’t like the child’s new friend, and a little time later she emptied the house and the bank account and left to marry a man. On the phone I was told I wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the child or know where they had moved to, as the child needed to separate from me in order to bond with the new husband and become part of a normal family. I never saw her again.

How much is nurture and how much is nature, I guess we will never know- but I do know that when it was brought to my attention that I didn’t know how to raise a little girl I felt guilty that because I didn’t know about “girl” things I had somehow robbed her of becoming who she was suppose to be. But today, this is what I know, I know that I taught her that anything is possible, and that she was strong enough to do anything- and when I close my eyes and worry about the life she may be living right now- I remember that one day she will be old enough to make her own decisions, and more importantly strong enough to make them, regardless of what anyone has to say about it.

[Bard]

My Goose is now 7 going on 17 at times I swear and me I have worried about this a bit as I have never been feminine in my life and my ex well she is the childs bio mm and she is more I guess andro. Abby is a smart advanced child I want her to make her own way with all the support her Mommie and I can give and love unconditional love. But abby has Desd to look to as well and she does they talk makeup nails and all that sort that I just don't get I will be going shopping with my goose being her support no mater what like I said she is advanced and calls desd her step mom she loves and excepts us all just as we are and we do the same So I think we are doing something right

[tuffboi29]

What beautiful responses.

Even though I get begged into all the pretty little things, I've tried to maintain the "girls can do anything a bay can do" motto.

She has her big trucks (pink lol) for the sandbox. I took her once to the hardware store so she could have her own tools to help me with small jobs around the house. I'll be damned if they didn't have a pink tool box with pink tiny tools. They even had tiny pink mechanics gloves. We got those "'Cause I don't like when my hands get all nasty!!!

She's definitely not going to be on the side of the road with a flat waiting for a tow truck. LOL

I'm hoping to give her the skills to be completely self sufficient and let her maintain her "princess status" so to speak.

I raised two boys for quite some time in their lives. I had no problems teaching them the "boys don't hit girls, hold the doors open for ladies, ect".
I grew up watching my father's mannerisms closely, so I think for me it was "easier" to bring them up as strong young gentlemen.

I think I'm just nervous because it was easier for me with the boys. I don't fake my excitement when she gets excited over things. I tell her how nice her new haircut looks and the clothes she gets. I've sat in on the tea parties.
What worries me is those teen years are coming on so fast and I'm starting to find myself a little lost. And who the hell is Eye Carly???

I don't know...I just want to do right by her and if I have to form a dang femme troupe of my own to help her get through the transition into womanhood I guess that's what I'm going to do.

[princessbelle]

Wow what a beautiful thread and what beautiful encouragement and advice you have been given.

As very much a girly girl who raised boys, i can sympathize with your worries.

I had the opposite issues. How do i raise boys when i know NOTHING about them. It is quite ironic, don't you think? But it also opens a world to us we don't know about and it gives us the oportunity to grow and inspire and be inspired to parent those of the *opposite* sex if you will or at least of the *opposite* gender.

It is a great experience and i believe you are, have and will continue to do a wonderful job. The most important thing is that your heart is in the right place. Your faith in your child is 110% and that you give quality of time.

I had the "pleasure" of becoming boy scout leader. Yes, me. At first the 15 boys in the troup were not very pleased with me teaching them to to make pot holders and cute Christmas ornaments. But, i read the manuals, i reached out for help and i worked at it. They ended up wanting me back the next year. I hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them.

Then there was grammer school. Anytime there was a field trip I went. It never failed that i was always assigned to 5-10 boys to keep up with due to me having boys and the teachers would give parents of girls ...girls and those of boys...boys. Logical, but gosh i was out of my element. Again i hung in there, i listened, and i learned from them.

Teenage years....oh my. Girls, cars, Girls. It was strange being the mother of boys and hearing their versions of things i could remember going through on the opposite side of the fence. Dances....."mom, cindy wants me to ask her to the dance but i really would prefer going with tonya." "Mom, i have a crush on susan how can i tell if she likes me". "do you think it is time i get Julie a ring?" Birds and bees talks, birth control talks, std talks....All sorts of things. I hung in there, i listened, and I learned from them.

Now, grown men. One married, both in college. They are respectable, proud of their gay mom, voting citizens, spiritual, compassionate, wonderful sons that love their momma. I won't go on and on about how proud i am...but you get the point. Did i make mistakes? OMG yes.

The very best advice i can give you is this:
Be the parent that is there for her when she needs a friend, but always be the parent .

You are doing great. You will get through it. The years you are going through right now are over in an instant. Cherish all you can. Reach out when you need to....we all need it sometimes.
Breath.
Hang in there, listen and learn from her.