Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Dance-with-me]

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I like this approach. Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

I agree with your ideas on divisiveness and the complexity of attraction. I hope my post didn't come across as an attack.

As for that long ago ex: I did feel rather attacked by her attempt to change the core of who I am when she was well aware of my presentation prior to getting together with me. I wish she hadn't tried to change me. It was rather confusing me as a newly out queer, and I actually did compromise who I was to a certain degree in order to mould myself into some version of what she needed attraction-wise.

This is all before I discovered B/F and the affirmation that I was just fine carrying on the way I was and that others understood the ways I move through the world.

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics or B/F stuff with a larger group.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Soon

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics it with a larger group.

I agree with the props for Dance. Also, I think it is pretty cool that she admits that it is mostly a self serving thing...she is seeking friends in an otherwise androgynous community...rather than it being all about education.

I don't live in the area she lives in, but I know it well. She will be walking into a room of lesbians who will number one not be so keen on her gender presentation, and number two are almost proud of their discrimination towards butches and femmes who date butches. I think she is right that there are probably "closeted" butch defined people in that group since being butch is almost a shameful thing in that community, especially in her age group.

Dance-With-Me, you may want to consider finding butch/femme/trans people by advertising for a butch/femme/trans group, if that is your main purpose in bringing up this topic.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I'm with femmsational on this one... getting people to think of their own journey/presentation as unique and worthwhile and then being open to others experiences is a useful tool for perspective taking.

In my own journey to femme and then the butch/femme dynamic in a relationship I had a few stops with other people. Each person had their own presentation/way of being. Just as I would expect individuals to have because they are individuals. Some of the underlying tension in our relationships was related to my at times unnamed desire for a dynamic that: neither of us knew about, one didn't like and was outspoken or even the other persons desire to make the other be more like something they weren't.

At times the language and views/judgements of our community (queer and straight) helped shape how we (the 2 people in the relationship) proceeded or tried to function with our feelings (how we saw ourselves, what we couldn't name). So I can understand the need to talk about this.

I often wonder without creating a platform/meeting/dissertation how to get out to folks as an open minded person. Sometimes the urge strikes me to raise my hand, wave it a bit and give a general reminder... Hay folks if you want an open discussion about something tweaking you hit me up. Struggling with judgements of yourself and others? Lets chat.

Asking questions is the best small way I have come up with when with people in passing or in the moment. Why they feel that way, what got them to that point, why not another point of view... etc.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

Wow. I havent been this offended or felt lesbian bashed in a long time.

I suggest you start by reexamining the attitudes and the judgements in the words you are using.

To call non butch-femme people "generic" lesbians is incredibly offensive.

To describe people and presume they are "in the middle interms of gender presentation" is bizarre. Gender is what is between your ears. There are many of us lesbians who are attuned to being female and we just express being female our own way. It is not a "gender" issue. It is being a woman our way. Please dont confuse the way someone dresses or their sportiness or their external anything as a "gender issue".

In the same vein, to say these middle of the road gender people who are attracted to their counterparts rather than their opposites is also offensive. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. Period.

I have a real hard time when I start hearing the term butch phobic especially when it is coupled with the usual....just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

Butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics. Woman energy expressed in every which way women choose to express it is different from the way mixed energy is expressed. It is not anti butch or anti male, it is pro woman.

In the same vein, there are many of us women loving other women lesbians who like, look forward to, and are replenished by our women energy only events. We deal with mixed energy all day long and the sexism, misogyny and other crap that goes with it. We like the safety, comfort, and rejuvenation that comes from being with like minded people.

Yet, and this is where our internalized sexism comes in, we as women have been socialized to believe we must be inclusive of all. Good women are inclusive women. Bad women are exclusive women. Exclusive women who keep masculine at bay are really really bad women.

There is nothing wrong with women empowering themselves by having woman exclusive anything. And, it doesnt make us bad women, bad lesbians, or "generic" lesbians. It makes us self respecting, self directed, self caring women who want to be around other women who feel the same way.

Have you thought of making a butch-femme meet up group?

[aishah]

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

[MissItalianDiva]

Hmm...I thought I understood your general point but after reading your post again I just am sitting here wondering WTH to be honest.

Perhaps this group your are a member or participant in just simply does not want or need to identify with being butch or femme. Why do they have to be "generic" lesbians or even lesbians for that matter. Perhaps they choose to date others that are "andro" etc as you put it because that is where their attraction is and of course their choice.

I don't get why it bothers you that they are different. My suggestion would be to
1. Not box folks into categories
2. Don't make assumptions
3. Realize not everyone is going to or will want to have the same view of you even if you have a discussion with them
4. Open you mind and your world.

I am sorry but your post and words seem rather hypocritical to me or at the very least contradictory. I tried to read in between the lines but I can't seem to find any other way to perceive this other then it being offensive.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by aishah

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

What I was addressing is that under the queer umbrella there are many branches with some similarities but also with distinct differences. Finding ones way through the branches to the place where one finds the sense of community that speaks to them is very much an individual thing.

What I was also addressing is that woman-woman, minus the labels and qualifiers we are used to in this community, is a very real, very valid, choice of lifestyle which deserves as much respect and acceptance as any other branch under the umbrella.

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

[Fatale]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

No, we would use the word "boring".

[Dance-with-me]

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics.

I disagree with that since many, if not most, butches are women and experience themselves as women.

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Martina

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

You gave me a Ooooooo, I like that. Martina. Nicely said. I agree.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

Thank you. Probably more as gender presentations or gender expressions than genders, but you are correct - no intention of trying to "explain" the butch/femme dynamic in any depth at all.

There ARE a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us, and this IS about educating them - or at least opening up a dialog with them, and giving everyone more to think about.

No intention of making any kind of definitive "butch is..." statements - because, as you said, there is no definitive way of describing it.

I love the suggestion of saying that masculinity and femininity don't belong to any gender. I also thought about using my granddaughter, who has rejected all "girl" stuff since she was 2 and plans to marry a very girly-girl friend of hers, and her good friend who is a "princess boy" with a very feminine gender presentation who has a crush on one of the rough and tumble boys in his class, as a starting point: They're not playing roles, they're not playing a game, they just don't get why it's somehow wrong for a girl to prefer spiderman and trucks and identify far more with the boys, or for a boy to prefer sparkles and princesses and identify far more with the girls -- because it's NOT wrong, society is wrong for putting them in a box and saying girls can only like this and boys can only like that. My granddaughter and her friend are probably not transsexual but their gender presentation doesn't match the stereotypes of what they "should" be -- and there's nothing wrong with that. AND when they grow up, my granddaughter quite possibly will be a butch, with a masculine gender presentation just like she already has now (in 6 yo form) and she may have a strong preference and feel most a home with a girl who has a very feminine gender presentation.

OK end ramble. But that's some of where my head is with this.

I appreciate your input.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

Hi, Dance-With-Me. It might be too late to respond to your post (I see it's a year old), but what I'm hearing is that you feel alone in this group, and not only that, you feel that your self-expression is misunderstood.

I wonder how it has gone with you, being in this group for a while now (if you're still in it).

I've felt exactly the same way, in Meetup groups. But I don't feel inhibited about my identity. If someone has a problem with the kind of women I'm attracted to (butch), I don't care.

Meetup groups that are centered around a shared interest might be a better place to connect. But I've always found that groups centered on sexual preference or identity don't yield a lot of potential friends for me.

I imagine straight people getting together because they share being straight, and the collection of people it would attract. What are the odds of friendships forming?

I'm sure my logic is really flawed here. Just bottom line, I'm saying I relate to how you're feeling, except I would never try to educate people. I'm just myself and anyone who can handle that is welcome to hang around and talk.

Scout

[TruTexan]

Dancewithme, did you ever approach the subject matter at hand in r/t? I am curious since we haven't heard back from you about it????

[DapperButch]

My girlfriend is good friends with Dance-With-Me. I believe she ended up giving up on this.

Now she is engaged and planning her wedding, so I think new friends are no longer a high priority.

I don't think she comes to the site much anymore, so I figured I would answer you guys.