The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Jett]

Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.

The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.

For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.

I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain. In the real world our women-hood is challenged and we often find ourselves on the outside of women looking in, in Butch Femme communities our masculinity is challenged and we find ourselves relegated a lesser form of masculinity, put on a spectrum, and often replied to with masculine pronoun by default. Is this so bad? It is when it's shrugged off and treated as not as important an issue, not equally offensive or defended as intensely as a male being called a women... it is when it's serving to make us less visible just in it's erasure of the s in she... cyberspace and real world.

Add to that the here and there sexist covert remarks from individuals of all identity... I've heard from "I date X-ID only b/c I want to be the only one in bed with the panties" and from... "I don't identify as relate as female because I "- always played with trucks? Only wears man's clothes? Don't feel feminine? Are masculine? Take a masculine role in life/relationships? Guess what!... stand in line, me too.

Something I find a very personal affront, and again making Women or Female ID seem less visible, and seems to act as silencing, is when our experiences are dismissed as less valid or universal. That somehow because we're butches and we're all born female with masculinity, that it's been the same for XYZ... the "don't forget X's knows what it's like they used to be there too" (except when the shoes on the other foot then their/it's not the same).

I'm sorry but when I'm treated by a patriarchal society like "a woman", treated differently with inequality I don't have the defense of saying (or even thinking) don't treat me that way I'm a man, treat me like a man. It's in no way the same internal experience. I have to take it upon me as an affront on me, not that they've mistaken my gender. I'm the one who has to deal internally with living woman in a mans world, with knowing, yes I am, what they're dissing. I'm the one who'll take that head on from the trenches my entire life.

Bottom line I've looked at that and life through a female existence, a masculine woman's internal space. Yes, there is real experience shared by butches, in treatment we received at a glance from the outside, from strangers... but after that experience is internal perspective and the lens you view the world from. I won't try to claim another's personal experiences as always having viewed the world from a male view, growing up as a boy in a female body if one doesn't try to claim to have looked through my eyes as a female/woman, growing up struggling internally to first understand, then preserve and exert my identity as female when by society standards I acted/behave lived like a boy... and continual fight for my right to do so without being a man or referred to as one... to have my masculinity accepted/respected as valid as a female.

That all trickles down differently, unique perspectives, trials, stories... lived experiences... not a worse or better issue, difference. Maybe this all would be understood better if not dismissed and essentially derailed, droned over by "me too's" that are actually out of place and I often find suspect because of it's sided fashion... "I know what it's like to be you... but you don't know what it's like to be me". Frankly that's not possible.

So... this is about masculinity owned by females/women, those who own it unapologetically without attributing it to anything except who they are as strong Butch Female/Women. Many ID's, certainly some, can relate to some of the experiences here, as we can strongly to some of theirs but this space is intended to discuss our unique perspectives, and as we respect others space, ours is no less valuable and I believe necessary.

That said, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves, and to all women to stand up too, take space, speak on the non-equality in the unique spaces we occupy. If Women ID Female ID butches are treated differently it's solely because of the word women and female... and I can guarantee you the sexist and misogynistic messages aren't focused to just the butches, they extend right though out to all females and women by default.

Ok, to be clear, this is a Butch Female ID and or Butch Woman ID positive space, if you just want to say "I'm a Butch Female (ID) and I don't give a shit what anybody thinks!" say just that. It's about our minds, our bodies, unique experiences, comradery, dead seriousness (and occasional nonsensical general ridiculousness hopefully)... and for supporters and allies of our identity to speak of their own experiences.

This is taking equal space, that we and those who support us come here to find we have some, as I've heard expressed needed... this is not intended to be divisionary. I hope everybody does their best to speak from the "me - I" place and refrain from making judgments about or generalizing others identities. Call me crazy, but, in the end I believe we'd fight together better for our spaces in a homophobic misogynistic world and be a better example if we started by defending each other equally in our own spaces.

Strength and Pride.

Metropolis
*talked out (perhaps for life ; )) but will return*

[daisyfm]

I am not a Butch. I have been a Femme ally for a very long time, so I understand what you are writing about here. Congrats on starting this thread!

[BullDog]

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

[Galahad]

Metropolis and Bulldog, Pushing the thanks button just wasn't enough for your posts. HUZZAH you two HUZZAH!!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

No truer words were spoken.

And the Silence... it's telling.

[Jett]

Going back and reading my post I see some defensiveness, and I think about why there's even a need for it here, but it's here, so why... I think for myself the problem with what we're talking about here is it like bull said, it's especially noticeable in B-F communities (online) and it makes it feel even more personal.

First I'll say, I don't think, (as I said previously) that the greater butch femme community is sexist or misogynistic, but I do though see a lot of stuff slide. And truth, I hear that same complaint from many sides about transphobic remarks, sexist, misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobic etc.

I think there's an overall phenomenon going on here (more than just being a cross section of humanity) and I don't think it's purposeful... (except where it is).

Seems there's so much in-fighting, covert and open between identities, and allies, that we're stuck defending ourselves against each other and as a result of feeling dissed by X, or not defended... maybe we tend not to defend X.

I started this thread for Female ID, Women ID Butches (and that's what it's going to be about) but that doesn't mean I don't hear the similar cries of foul from other identities just that this is my personal fight.

And, I still feel it's lop-sided, I still feel sexism and misogyny less called out and that feels personal, but perhaps standing along side each other (because despite the in-fighting I still see us as brothers and sisters) we'd get further, learn more about each other and just be a better ally all around. You can't fight anothers battle for them, but you can support them.

Truly we are different, and thus have different individual battles, but as queer masculine beings who were not born male we share a lot of the same grief from the greater world, and so by default the war.

I wanted to throw that out there though I want this thread to remain female ID and Women ID focused... but I believe it's an important consideration.

My half a cup of coffee to yours,
Metro

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.

It is exactly this - walking in this mans world daily with pride as a butch woman far too masculine for the mainstream that I find most satisfying as a butch lesbian. Most challenging too, yet something that is at my core and feels complete.



The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.

And it is these fallacies of masculinitythat I find most disturbing! For butch women, for every identity on the spectrum of butch and for men! there is no such fucking thing as male ego! Ego has no gender! And the Id is not only masculine, nor is the Super Ego mainly female!

For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.
Yes, it is.. very sad. But, no, we are not going anywhere. We are just as viable as ever.

I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain.

The remainder of your OP includes many more points that I hope will be discussed here, but, I have to say that our unique challenges and our simply amazing merging and seamless integration of female and male plays a major role in combating the patriarchal binary which all people ought to be involved in. It dismisses all of us and is predicated on structural and institutional sexisism!

There need be no divisions - we are all fighting the same war....

[AtLast]

Bumping for re-examination... hopefully.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.

The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.

For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.

I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain. In the real world our women-hood is challenged and we often find ourselves on the outside of women looking in, in Butch Femme communities our masculinity is challenged and we find ourselves relegated a lesser form of masculinity, put on a spectrum, and often replied to with masculine pronoun by default. Is this so bad? It is when it's shrugged off and treated as not as important an issue, not equally offensive or defended as intensely as a male being called a women... it is when it's serving to make us less visible just in it's erasure of the s in she... cyberspace and real world.

Add to that the here and there sexist covert remarks from individuals of all identity... I've heard from "I date X-ID only b/c I want to be the only one in bed with the panties" and from... "I don't identify as relate as female because I "- always played with trucks? Only wears man's clothes? Don't feel feminine? Are masculine? Take a masculine role in life/relationships? Guess what!... stand in line, me too.

Something I find a very personal affront, and again making Women or Female ID seem less visible, and seems to act as silencing, is when our experiences are dismissed as less valid or universal. That somehow because we're butches and we're all born female with masculinity, that it's been the same for XYZ... the "don't forget X's knows what it's like they used to be there too" (except when the shoes on the other foot then their/it's not the same).

I'm sorry but when I'm treated by a patriarchal society like "a woman", treated differently with inequality I don't have the defense of saying (or even thinking) don't treat me that way I'm a man, treat me like a man. It's in no way the same internal experience. I have to take it upon me as an affront on me, not that they've mistaken my gender. I'm the one who has to deal internally with living woman in a mans world, with knowing, yes I am, what they're dissing. I'm the one who'll take that head on from the trenches my entire life.

Bottom line I've looked at that and life through a female existence, a masculine woman's internal space. Yes, there is real experience shared by butches, in treatment we received at a glance from the outside, from strangers... but after that experience is internal perspective and the lens you view the world from. I won't try to claim another's personal experiences as always having viewed the world from a male view, growing up as a boy in a female body if one doesn't try to claim to have looked through my eyes as a female/woman, growing up struggling internally to first understand, then preserve and exert my identity as female when by society standards I acted/behave lived like a boy... and continual fight for my right to do so without being a man or referred to as one... to have my masculinity accepted/respected as valid as a female.

That all trickles down differently, unique perspectives, trials, stories... lived experiences... not a worse or better issue, difference. Maybe this all would be understood better if not dismissed and essentially derailed, droned over by "me too's" that are actually out of place and I often find suspect because of it's sided fashion... "I know what it's like to be you... but you don't know what it's like to be me". Frankly that's not possible.

So... this is about masculinity owned by females/women, those who own it unapologetically without attributing it to anything except who they are as strong Butch Female/Women. Many ID's, certainly some, can relate to some of the experiences here, as we can strongly to some of theirs but this space is intended to discuss our unique perspectives, and as we respect others space, ours is no less valuable and I believe necessary.

That said, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves, and to all women to stand up too, take space, speak on the non-equality in the unique spaces we occupy. If Women ID Female ID butches are treated differently it's solely because of the word women and female... and I can guarantee you the sexist and misogynistic messages aren't focused to just the butches, they extend right though out to all females and women by default.

Ok, to be clear, this is a Butch Female ID and or Butch Woman ID positive space, if you just want to say "I'm a Butch Female (ID) and I don't give a shit what anybody thinks!" say just that. It's about our minds, our bodies, unique experiences, comradery, dead seriousness (and occasional nonsensical general ridiculousness hopefully)... and for supporters and allies of our identity to speak of their own experiences.

This is taking equal space, that we and those who support us come here to find we have some, as I've heard expressed needed... this is not intended to be divisionary. I hope everybody does their best to speak from the "me - I" place and refrain from making judgments about or generalizing others identities. Call me crazy, but, in the end I believe we'd fight together better for our spaces in a homophobic misogynistic world and be a better example if we started by defending each other equally in our own spaces.

Strength and Pride.

Metropolis
*talked out (perhaps for life ; )) but will return*

[BullDog]

Thanks for the bump AtLast. If I had something articulate to say right now I would. I hope more people will re-read and participate. Thank you to Metropolis for her wise words.

[*Anya*]

This thread needed a bump, even if by a femme...