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Old 03-12-2012, 09:05 AM   #1
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Default A straight girl enters the queer world...

I have a dear friend of mine who has recently entered into a relationship with a trans-man. She's never had any sort of alternate relationship with anything other than bio-men, and is struggling, though she won't openly admit it.

I myself was straight when I met my trans-man, but I was raised by lesbians therefor always had a base understanding of the lifestyle, though by all means did this make me an expert or even experienced, but I'm finding giving her advice difficult, truly.

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough. When I first met my Daddy, I was a sponge for information. For those few who remember me from the other B-F forums with him, I was constantly posting, asking questions, getting involved in discussions, and I learned so much, and it helped me to truly learn about him, his doubts, his worries, his concerns, and all of those things he faces every day, that I would have been oblivious to. And my ability to educate myself, created a portal into him, more thoroughly.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt. And I'm at a loss for advice to give her. So I have a few questions.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be. So we have a straight girl clueless of the trans mentality, with a trans-man who has a very hard time accepting that she doesn't know everything, that in fact, she is quite ignorant of it all. Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times.

Sadly, we are dealing with two people who lack a lot of self worth and self-esteem. But, I do believe there is a sense of real love between them, though Daddy seems to disagree, he knows the female party better than I do. But I want to be a good friend for her, and help her. I'm just finding myself at a loss.

I have tried the tough love, get it through your damn head, approach. And I have tried the kind loving approach, neither of which seem to make her see the big picture.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks BF!
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:41 AM   #2
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Default IMO

My first thought when reading this is your friends need to grasp the fact that no matter who they date, they are still themselves.

For example...I am a gay femme woman, that is my ID. I am still that gay femme woman no matter if i date Butch, FTM, Trans, or Bio-Men for that matter. (not that i would date bio-men, but trying to prove my point here)

No matter who i date, that does not change who i am.

The second thing i want to mention is respect. This is how i see it anyway...

If i'm dating someone that goes by He or Hy or She, i call them their selected pronoun out of respect. It doesn't mean it changes who i am. It is all about them and what "they" prefer. If i date a FTM and he has transitioned to a man, i would still be a gay femme woman, and never would i think of myself as straight. Even if "he" sees it that way or the rest of the world did. I wouldn't care. I know who i am.

IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID. You can date three different Trans or Butch or any ID and get three different ways of seeing how they feel. There is no cut and dry answer to knowing IMO. All relationships are different and you just gotta really listen to your partner to know what they want, expect and need so that you can be the best partner you can be.

I have dated the gamut, and it's always a little adjustment with the way they ID but it is theirs and you just have to be flexible and respectful. What's more important, at least to me, is do "we" get along, are we compatible, do we have similar dreams, do i feel affection and is that affection given back. Ya know?

Another thought is invite her here. Show her some of the threads on Trans and maybe she can get a feel of how it flows.

Not sure this was your question really, but just wanted to share that.

Sounds like you are a really good friend and they are lucky to have you around.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:13 AM   #3
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I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Miss_Tia View Post
I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?
No, actually she is coming to me ALL the time with help in this relationship. This has nothing at all to do with control, it has to do with me reaching out for more information to be able to better help them in their relationship.

I would never ever complain about such a thing, and I will completely support her. But I am finding it a challenge, and as a good friend, who is trying to give her all she needs to help her with her questions, and her situations, that is why the post is here.

As a friend, you give advice, you lend your shoulder, and share your own ideals, and situations with them in order to help them when times are hard. This has little at all to do with control. Telling her my thoughts, and ideas, about what she comes to me with is not controlling, it's being honest and open and not sugarcoating everything, because in the end that would only be detrimental.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:22 AM   #5
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My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy View Post
My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.
Thank you, Daddy. Perhaps I'll just tell you what I want to say, and let you post it, your ability with words is superior to my own, of late for some reason. lol. Love you.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:17 PM   #7
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Just a thought, but it seems to me that if someone "really" wants to know about something/someone they will put the effort into researching the subject thoroughly. I'm not saying your friend hasn't done some of this, but it does sound like a good deal more research could be done by her on the subject. It also sounds like the two of them need to communicate more, talk, listen, share, and yes, respect the wishes of one another.

On a side note, I know for myself that I encompass all sorts of characteristics. Some people may see me as a gay male, others a straight male, and even others not sure what to think. I cook, I decorate, I love flowers, I don't drink beer, I despise performing mechanical (auto care) related activities, I like nice things in my home, etc. Sometimes I may seem callous or indifferent, while at other times I'm the most caring and generous of friends. We're all made up of so many different characteristics that I think it's unfair and difficult to "pigeon hole" anyone as being this or that type of person. We are simply who we are, with everything that makes us be that person. Whatever/whoever someone else is simply needs to be respected as a part of their being.

Just my observation from what I've read so far.

Best of luck to your friends!

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Old 03-12-2012, 03:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by princessbelle View Post
IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID.
I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:26 PM   #9
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I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.
i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:49 PM   #10
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The first time I dated someone trans, I had a real problem acknowledging 'she' was a 'he'. I was a lesbian goddamnit! And lesbians didn't date men.
But I couldn't help myself, he was so amazing that I couldn't stay away.
It didn't help that at the time he was going through a period of discovery himself, so didn't have the confidence to fully come out.

I barely knew anything about trans, so it was invaluable to me that he took the time to talk everything through with me, to answer all of my questions, lend me books and even show me a video. It was an eye-opener which would never have happened had he been the sort to take my ignorance personally.

The second time I dated someone trans I thought I was down with the kids, I thought I knew. Of course I realised how ridiculous that was about a week later, particularly when I remembered that I was a lesbian.
Luckily my husband was happy to talk to me about anything and everything and even argue with me on occasion when our cultures clashed.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

It's not important. What's important is she care about her partner and try to meet his needs and he do the same. In time she'll either learn on the job or he will terminate the relationship.

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She's probably trying to square up the two realities. If she's had a straight life up till now, none of this will fit the world she's been living in for most of her life. In time everything will start to make sense or else he'll get fed up with her and leave.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The two of you have different partners, different relationships. Understanding your relationship isn't necessarily going to help her with her own.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

If he is not able to be a patience and tolerant educator, than she is not going to learn. Simples. He either needs to grow up or give up. Her 'manipulation' is probably the only way she knows how to defuse the situation. He feels bad, she gets a break.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:51 PM   #11
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Well said, Quin.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:56 PM   #12
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Thank you everyone for your comments and input. In a brief discussion forum such as this, many details are being left out. She leans on me, perhaps too much, as it has been stated, because she finds me someone who can relate to the questions she has.

I don't feel you need to become an 'expert' on something like this, to be with someone. But when it is a completely new experience, I believe anyone who was not born with the inclinations, finding themselves in 'new' territory, researching, to understand is very very important. I know, that partly it was my need to understand the obstacles, my partner faced on a daily, basis, that he couldn't just come out and explain perfectly, brought us closer, it solidified out understanding of each other.

Most are right, the ID of someone, should not be so focused on in a relationship. But you have to remember that we are discussing someone who has entered completely new territory. And having been the straight girl, who fell madly in love with a trans-man, without it having been something I was born with the inclination to, to more fully understand it naturally, I found my own self identification important.

We aren't talking about just a label, or the [B]definition[B] of what someone is. We're discussing daily trials and tribulations, they go through. Such as, with Daddy, he has the looks to contend with. Not something he would have really just brought to me, but it was something that educating myself, I was able to understand, to better support him during these struggles. Intimately, it allowed me to be curious, and ask him detailed questions about what he was comfortable with, and what he wasn't comfortable with.

All in all, it became something that led him to really trust me, lose the fear of 'what if the straight girl doesn't want me' and replaced it with awe and appreciation because it showed him how important even the little details of his life, were to me.

There is never a cut and dry answer or reply to anything, in a relationship. Be it straight vanilla or kinky trans/bi/gay. But when so many transmen and transwomen deal with so much, that isn't easy to just make common conversation of it, this can be integral in much of the understanding we need to have to be complete partners.

As for helping, hindering, or postponing the inevitable in their relationship, I just want to say that my reasons for even beginning this thread, was to find people who may have experienced something, that I intended on bringing her to this thread to read, and learn from herself. Just as we all learn things from such writings, or even ramblings. I don't have the advice, or the help I wish I could offer her. That is why I am here. Though she is reaching out, and I remember reaching out as well. So to anyone who may agree or disagree, that is all this is about. Understanding, or hearing of anothers' experiences, is not advising someone on how to run their relationship, it is expressing an understanding, and hope that they will find something positive, to take out of it, that will help them.

Once again, thank you everyone for the replies.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #13
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http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=976

Here is the link to the SOFFA thread I was talking about, she may find some help with her issues around what she is feeling there.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aishah View Post
i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.
Agreed.

I read/research because I will *never* understand what it is like to be butch, stone butch, trans etc. I am a femme who looks like a straight, vanilla world soccer mom. As such, reading about another's life, journey etc allows me to step into their world-over and over for as many times and worlds as I can find. I love to get into someone's mind and find out how they think. For a variety of reasons, you cannot always ask as many questions as I have.

If reading/research is how someone learns, then that may be exactly what they need to do.

Additionally, reading allows you to reflect and absorb at your own pace, it gives you new questions to learn answers to and you do not have to concern yourself with how a book is going to react to your desire to learn more.



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Old 03-12-2012, 06:36 PM   #15
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I think that it is actually highly beneficial to "research" things about your partner and aspects that are critical in their lives. I know some people have mentioned that it isn't important to research their partner and such but I respectfully disagree with that notion. Specially when it comes to entering unknown terrain... smiles.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BullDog View Post
I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

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Old 03-12-2012, 03:07 PM   #17
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Ok, there are a few things here that concern me so I am going to address them one at a time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddysKitten View Post
She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough.

Is love really enough? Is it possible to have love without basic understanding? The first time I dated a stone butch, I read and read and read so that I might better understand where she was coming from. Did it help? Who knows? Things did not progress b/c we were too different to date BUT we are still good friends, over a year later. And when she needs advice or wants a jolt of reality, she calls me.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt.

Here again. Is this "love" enough? Does she really love him or is she in love with the way he treats her when things are good because then we come into my third concern...

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

It sounds to me like he is still struggling with who he is. If he has not accepted his self, then how can she?

Just my thoughts at first glance, they may change later after I have had time to think about this some more.
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:11 PM   #18
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i love what laney said.

i wanted to echo that response to the "love" issue - to me, love, at least in a relationship, requires some sort of commitment. it's not enough to get caught up in the honeymoon feelings. if you are in a relationship with someone loving them means being committed at least to being empathetic and compassionate towards them, and to not making them feel disrespected and unsafe (or at least putting in the effort). so - being caught up in the warm fuzzy feelings is awesome, but it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aishah View Post
it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.
I agree! And it seems to be coming from BOTH sides. But I do not think it is based in a mean way, I think it is because he does not yet know himself and she does not know how to make his journey easier because of this.

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Old 03-12-2012, 03:35 PM   #20
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Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

You seem to be putting more effort in her relationship than she is. I'm thinking it should be the other way around as others have said. To me, it speaks volumes about her real interest in her partner/boyfriend. A pro-active role in understanding the many facets of a person is required.

I also think that at times folks have a tendency to pigeon-hole someone. He is much more than a transman. For a relationship to work folks need to focus on the individual rather than the label/id. Seeking general information about trans folks is also a good thing.

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship
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