Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/201...pe-not-a-line/

A quote from that

Beyond that, I think “masculine of center” as an umbrella is loaded and problematic. I realize it’s gaining popularity as a term used by individuals to describe themselves, and while I would love for people to really examine the term critically if they haven’t already, people are going to use whatever feels comfortable to them. But I am worried about the institutionalization of the term, its canonization if you will, as the broader description of these various gender identities.

While it may not be the intention of anyone who uses the term, “masculine of center” reduces gender expression down to a simple gradation, with pure femininity on one end and pure masculinity on the other. It is a somewhat antiquated way to think of gender. It basically replicates the current binary gender system but with the concession that your biological sex does not determine which side of the gender line you are allowed to occupy.

And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --

Q: What do you think about the term “masculine of center”?

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Martina

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/201...pe-not-a-line/

A quote from that


And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --



The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

I'm still waiting for for a concrete definition of what constitutes "center". Until I can get a reliable definition I can not use it. I know what left of center and right of center is, but in gender it really doesn't make much since to me.

[DapperButch]

I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html

"Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) "


Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

[macele]

well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center.

i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

Got it! Makes sense...the whole naming principle...it being the guiding part of the definition of an identity may bother some...and you are suggesting more likely butch women than other masculine identities (I too saw the evidence that it bothered this identity more than others). Thanks!

[Boots13]

This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me.

I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) .

And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications.

Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part.
So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ?

GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

[Dude]

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

[starryeyes]

Feminine of center is a definite no-go for me. It lacks an identity, as you stated in your post. Femme is in every fiber of my being. Taking that away is not an option. I can relate to what others are feeling about "masculine of center".

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

[nowandthen]

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

[Medusa]

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

While I freely admit I don't get it, and the it being the word "center", I do not have an issue with anyone who may claim MoC as an identifier. It isn't up to me to police that, understand it yes, yet if this is a term someone wants to identify with, more power to them, just please enlighten me about what it means.

[Ginger]

yeah, I hear what Corkey and Medusa are saying in different ways, questioning what is "the center."

It's like we used to say "a spectrum" of identities, an arc, and now the ends of the arc are touching, and it's a circle. Without a "center," just has a circle has an infinite number of sides.

It's confusing, though. I often use the term, "stereotypically" male or female or "culturally defined" as male or female, masculate or feminine.

It's like I don't want to get in trouble for making myself the arbiter of where that center lies.

[macele]

i've never been just totally in like of lesbian, dyke, queer, etc. we need labels for others and ourselves. i'm older now lol. i think that's the difference for me. i'm not looking for words/labels to identify with. i'm ok with change, ... it's a must at times. i'd make a guess and say that somebody didn't like butch, ... it felt outdated to them, ... and they wanted something to connect with, new. i hope it worked. sincerely.

[Medusa]

I'd like to submit too that "mascunlinity" may not define some Butch women who view their way of being, not as "masculine", but just as a Butch brand of Feminine.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

I personally do not care nor like that Dude, here is why:

It will create a heirarchy amongst Women, there are already enough ridiculous expectations on what defines feminine. Plus we all know sometimes feminine is born into a male bodied Woman.

So for *me* I wouldn't care for it, I certainly would NOT attend any kind of Femme Conference if all of a sudden someone decided to change the wording or add Feminine of Center.

*I* feel that's how BV pushed butch women and their voices out.


That's just my feeling on it which by the way is not up for argument.

[aishah]

feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much.

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

[Parker]

I dont like it.

Part of that is from what others have stated - the whole, "what is the 'center'?" arguments, as well as the inclusion/exclusion arguments; and, of course, the hierarchy of it butch - that's been around forever.

But mostly, I really hate when people try to label me or tell me who I am.

I get that enough from straight people who dont understand what or who a butch woman is - hell, I was labeled as "whatever" just the other day by a woman in the store who first said, "that woman" then changed her answer to "that man" and then just decided on "whatever" - that feels lovely, let me tell you.

So whether it is masculine of center, cis, he/hy, etc., or even "whatever," I dont like when someone else thrusts a label onto me for any reason; and that's what this feels like: someone other than me describing who I am.

Parker no likey.

[aishah]

some background on the term and about b. cole, the woman-identified butch who coined it:

http://oaklandlocal.com/article/quee...wn-boi-project

[Corkey]

Still no enlightenment on what "center" means in this context.