Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[little man]

Originally Posted by Linus

It's the idea that we always categorize "transsexed" (I'm a little icky about this as it feels like we're transgressing on intersexed individuals -- ah, English. Such a fun language) individuals as always "trans" man or "trans" woman.

Some female bodied, male-identified do not identify with the "trans" idea, whether before, during or after medical treatment or even without. They see themselves as male only. No trans anything.

The thought that started this was whether the LGBTQ community assumes that someone like me has to be trans (I do identify as trans but I'm experience as an example rather than using someone else).

Does that clarify?

could you elaborate on "someone like me"?

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by little man

could you elaborate on "someone like me"?

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Linus

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.



No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

[Martina]

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Martina

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

i think, in some cases, identifying as trans can be a cliff note kind of deal for those folks we tell about our trans status.

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Linus

Does that clarify?

LOL, no it did not--but your further posts did, so no worries.

Originally Posted by little man

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

I have seen this possibility, just watching how the community has reacted to people who come in stating they are men. The reaction has been hostile every time that I have seen it. On the other hand, quite often those who introduce themselves as Transmen have been welcomed.

Originally Posted by Linus

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

Ah. I've run into several guys (it's sooo much easier just to say guys! Such a relief to stop trying to figure out which word to use) who have insisted that they were never butch, that they were simply men from the beginning. Is that what you mean? Except they did include trans as part of their identity, but maybe they felt they had to in order to fit in the community... I know that over the years all different sorts of words got used to avoid the whole "Transman" label, so maybe that's related?

Originally Posted by little man

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

Damn, Wil, nothing could make more sense! I love this, and I think it is so true!! I also have done that, well heck--Gay Pride--I think LOTS of us have done that, fortified ourselves against shame that way!

I also have learned that I have more to offer than my queerness, but I find that it remains a strong part of my identity--still, over the years, it has moved back a little and now shares the primary identity space with my being pagan... and lately being a gardener is inching into the space, too; I am my own coalition government, lol.... well, that's quite a digression *blush* anyhow, I really loved your post.

[AtLast]

I do know 3 FtM's that are from way back (born in the late 1940's) that did not remain tied to the queer or lesbian community at all. As soon as all 3 were viewed as men publically, they lived as men, period. All 3 are straight and married to straight women. One of their wives had a lesbian relationship before, but not the other two.

It has been very interesting to come to the B-F community as a late-bloomer and experience all of the differing identifications here. Not even close to what I experienced before with this 3 men. I often wonder about generational differences as well as the role of the b-f dynamic about these differences.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

i've never been big on "joining" or "belonging". i kinda meander along and look for spaces where i'm either welcome or fit in to some degree. mostly, i'm a loner. that being said....

i've spent most of my adult life in the company of queers...outside work, of course. between the straight world and the queer world...i fit with queers best. these days, i'm not sure i actually fit in either place. at this point in time, 'trans' gives me some credibility (if you will) in the queer world. it at least allows me a guest pass if not full membership.

i try to honor my past by keeping in mind the trials and tribulations that went along with not just *being* female but being perceived as female. and butch on top of that. i never really appreciated how difficult it is to be butch in the world until i began transition. it's a hard life. and a rewarding one.

[apretty]

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

[little man]

Originally Posted by apretty

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

kinda like transportation? moving from point a to point b?

i think, for me, this might just well be the case...that the 'trans' aspect is the place(s) i am until i arrive. i'm just not sure there is an actual arrival point. but, that would be my interior life. life in the world? i figure being taken at face value as a man means i've arrived. no one who sees me face to face calls me ma'am. could be the mustache, could be the bald spot. or, it could be that my overall presentation is what they expect to see from a man.

side note: i view male and man as two distinctly different things.