Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Martina]

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Martina

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

i think, in some cases, identifying as trans can be a cliff note kind of deal for those folks we tell about our trans status.

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Linus

Does that clarify?

LOL, no it did not--but your further posts did, so no worries.

Originally Posted by little man

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

I have seen this possibility, just watching how the community has reacted to people who come in stating they are men. The reaction has been hostile every time that I have seen it. On the other hand, quite often those who introduce themselves as Transmen have been welcomed.

Originally Posted by Linus

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

Ah. I've run into several guys (it's sooo much easier just to say guys! Such a relief to stop trying to figure out which word to use) who have insisted that they were never butch, that they were simply men from the beginning. Is that what you mean? Except they did include trans as part of their identity, but maybe they felt they had to in order to fit in the community... I know that over the years all different sorts of words got used to avoid the whole "Transman" label, so maybe that's related?

Originally Posted by little man

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

Damn, Wil, nothing could make more sense! I love this, and I think it is so true!! I also have done that, well heck--Gay Pride--I think LOTS of us have done that, fortified ourselves against shame that way!

I also have learned that I have more to offer than my queerness, but I find that it remains a strong part of my identity--still, over the years, it has moved back a little and now shares the primary identity space with my being pagan... and lately being a gardener is inching into the space, too; I am my own coalition government, lol.... well, that's quite a digression *blush* anyhow, I really loved your post.

[AtLast]

I do know 3 FtM's that are from way back (born in the late 1940's) that did not remain tied to the queer or lesbian community at all. As soon as all 3 were viewed as men publically, they lived as men, period. All 3 are straight and married to straight women. One of their wives had a lesbian relationship before, but not the other two.

It has been very interesting to come to the B-F community as a late-bloomer and experience all of the differing identifications here. Not even close to what I experienced before with this 3 men. I often wonder about generational differences as well as the role of the b-f dynamic about these differences.