The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

Hey Kobi, I think I've had a quip on something similar with you for this before, but again...

I don't know how anyone could in compromise in any way who you are or negate you fight. I don't get that at all, it doesn't make sense. No one can compromise my identity and there's no limit on space here.

As far as where are the lesbians who want butch femme dynamic... just look around, there's tons of them here. I prefer big ol' damn dyke to the word lesbian but I have "identified" as a stone butch for the greater part of my life.

Which to me meant I didn't fit well in ALL lesbian dyke spaces (which are out there), it's not that they were all unwelcoming, but my life, my masculinity, attractions, like and dislikes were synced with others who are in the butch femme culture and those who walked in similar shoes. I find that connection with male ID, female ID and trans folks alike and for one see this as our hard fought for space.

Hell I would be bored - to - tears if we all were alike, with like mind and what-ever.

I say why not "honor your identity" that's hard fought for by being proud in it and making space for others who fight for space too? In the mean time yeah, this particular space seeks to welcoming and open place for all queer identities that feel a connect to the B-F dynamic. I see that as progress.

Metro

[Corkey]

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Kobi]

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Kobi, I don't know how to get this across to you, You belong here, just like everyone else who claims a LGBTIQ gender marker.

[Kobi]

June,

Thanks. I am feeling heard and this is good. I still dont get some stuff but thats cool too. Am trying to be open minded and absorb what I can, filter things thru my own prejudices, preferences, and beliefs.

AARP says I need to do mentality tasks to starve off dementia. Today was good for a few more years. LOL.

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Kobi --

I wanted to say this out loud to you, and to everyone who is participating so thoughtfully and being patient with each other even though this is a frustrating and very difficult topic.

I *know* you. And when I say that, I mean, I know (and love) many women like you. Women who have spent decades fighting for a place at the table, in the Boardroom, in the bedroom. Women who gave up a lot so that in my middle 30's, I could waltz out into the world as a Lesbian/Femme/Queer person and be reasonably sure I wasn't going to lose my job, my house and my child.

I want you to know, I am hearing you and seeing you hanging in there to figure this out. If you are looking for women born women only space, this will not be the place for you. If you are looking for a smart, eclectic, infuriating, fascinating online community, then yeah, welcome home.

We (many of us) do forget that it has been traditionally the Lesbians and the Feminists who took on the often thankless and more often low paid jobs in the social services arena to make the world safer and more just for other women and the children. Men have also done this work, but by and large, those cogs have been turned by women. I understand that someone entering into a community such as this could feel cast aside in some regards, but perhaps, if you can think of us as your liberated, unruly, sarcastic progeny, many of us out there doing out own form of activism based on the principles you and others laid as the foundation, it will help you to feel more at ease.

--June