The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by June

I went to bed really sad and frustrated last night because I see people stubbornly refusing to engage further because their way isn't the agreed upon "Right Way". As if we all don't get to choose our own paths to identity. As though they must all be the same path and the destination must be reached at the same time or everything is just hopeless and will "Never Change".

I saw two really significant changes occur yesterday. One was Kobi asking questions and being listened to and answered in really thoughtful, respectful ways, the other was a post made by Gayla late last night where s/he acknowleged that s/he has been guilty of defaulting to he/him for Butches, why s/he thought that happened and how even though change was hard, all of these conversations had made her think, and s/he was committed to change.

And also, I saw people breaking down their personal facades and disclosing behaviors that they personally thought of as masculine/feminine that they did or didn't do. Frankly, I was humbled by that.

Sure, we can rail against the fucking patriarchy and society at large for automatically assigning us "Jobs" according to our birth sex. Girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks, masculine = male, feminine = female. It's easy to act disdainful and dismissive of people who have bought into that, much easier than trying to understand why people, Queer people do that. How so many of us are trying to do the best we can to fit in, find love and get laid.

And how do we do that? We try on different clothes, attitudes and personalities till we find a combination that fits us. One of the things I rail about all the time is how Femme is personal, it is not one way. It is not, for all of us, high heels, fishnets, cleavage and lipstick. I'm sorry, it's just not. For some Femme's, it is, but that is not the only way to "Do" Femme. Some Femme's don't wear makeup. Some Butches (Hi, Met!) do wear eyeliner. Met's eyeliner, which I have witnessed up close and personal, does not make her less Butch to me. It's fucking eyeliner, and that does not define her Butch-ness. But I know, there are people on this site, Butch folks who will say "Oh, I would never wear makeup of any kind!" As if the act of doing that could erase them or make them less than because they percieve it to be feminine, and they think for them, feminine is bad. And yeah, that's kind of infuriating. In the same way (for me) it's infuriating when I see Butch and Trans folks taking on what I think are the very worst of the masculine traits i.e intense objectification of women based on appearances, excessive swagger and bravado or the denial of what I think of as natural human traits. Boys don't cry? Bullshit.

Having a name like Rose (Hi, Massive!) instead of Rodney, does not make someone less Butch. And yet, how many Butch folks, both male and female ID'd will "Butch up" their names? So, are there degrees of "Buying into it"? Who gets to decide how far is too far, how much makeup is too much or too little?

I have some thoughts, sparked by Kobi yesterday on Feminism, and how far we stray from our collective roots -- How we can forget that part of the reason we can all be here either having this discussion, or walking away from it, is because of the women (and men) who have been in the trenches for decades fighting for social justice so that even though it's still really hard and a huge struggle to own our identities, it's easier for us than it was for them.

I'm a Feminist and a Femme. I understand many of us are stuck in a binary hell based on assumptions that this=this, but I am not willing to throw people or communities away because not everyone thinks the way I do. I don't get that part at all. I think it's worth it, even if there are only small changes.

Goddammit June-y

And thank you

[Greyson]

I never ran across this thread until tonight. Yes, I have felt at times as if there were "gender wars" going on among various I.D.'s in the LGBTQI community. I am sure at times I have said things that were offensive to some. It was not necessarily intentional. It may have been my pure ignorance.

Also there have been many times I felt "erased." There seems to be this assumption that most butches come from an identity of being a woman. That is not the case for all butches. I am a butch that has always felt different from the women lesbians. Most of my adult life has been surrounded with and supported by lesbians, femmes and some butches.

My "identity" in many areas has evolved through out my lifetime. Not necessarily a notion that my ID now is superior to my previous ID's. Different and more accurate for me.

I no longer will go into "women identified closed spaces." Not because I do not know and acknowlege I was born in a female body, was see by most of the world and socalized as a masculine woman for the greater part of my life. I stay out of those spaces because I believe I would not be welcome now. I am not saying it is wrong. I am just giving my perspective. I do not see myself as male. I do see myself as masculine and a mix of genders. I really no longer believe there are only two genders, the binary. Some do, I don't.

I love, respect and admire women very much. My heros are women of all genders. Yes, I see butch as a gender. I am in part a woman but not entirely. Bare with me please. I am processing, figuring it all out, again. I do strive for the larger welcomig tent.

[Reader]

Bleh. I hunted around for the best place to post this, searched and all that crap. Now, I'm bored and this absurd hurricane is giving me a wicked headache. Here it is:

This seemed like the best thread to raise this issue. I do not mean to offend anyone's sensibilities, but the words "c*ck" and "c*nt" are words that I use affirmatively. I use the "*" symbol here so as not to offend.

Butch c*ck is something so very personal. It must have a billion differing meanings, and implications across the community.

Sometimes, it is so super visceral for me, so real, a pseudo-phantom appendage. I never sense b*lls per se, it is just the c*ck sensation. When I am turned on, I feel it spring to life. A sudden volitile stiffening, rising throughout me, expanding inside and outside of me. It seeks release, attention, acknowledgement and sometimes asks, no, demands, satisfaction of one sort or another.

Yet, I do not ID as male at all. Not in the sense that I think most male IDed folks here mean the term.

What is it like for other butches out there? Might you share your experiences?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Hunter Green

Bleh. I hunted around for the best place to post this, searched and all that crap. Now, I'm bored and this absurd hurricane is giving me a wicked headache. Here it is:

This seemed like the best thread to raise this issue. I do not mean to offend anyone's sensibilities, but the words "c*ck" and "c*nt" are words that I use affirmatively. I use the "*" symbol here so as not to offend.

Butch c*ck is something so very personal. It must have a billion differing meanings, and implications across the community.

Sometimes, it is so super visceral for me, so real, a pseudo-phantom appendage. I never sense b*lls per se, it is just the c*ck sensation. When I am turned on, I feel it spring to life. A sudden volitile stiffening, rising throughout me, expanding inside and outside of me. It seeks release, attention, acknowledgement and sometimes asks, no, demands, satisfaction of one sort or another.

Yet, I do not ID as male at all. Not in the sense that I think most male IDed folks here mean the term.

What is it like for other butches out there? Might you share your experiences?

Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

Done. Thanks, Dapper!

[Reader]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

Dapper-when you say "ETA" above, what does that mean? Effective targeted advertising? Just curious. (I would have left you a note on your page but I can't...sorry to derail)

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Hunter Green

Dapper-when you say "ETA" above, what does that mean? Effective targeted advertising? Just curious. (I would have left you a note on your page but I can't...sorry to derail)

"effective targeted advertising" - ha ha

Edited to announce. Edited to add.